Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.
Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.
Targeted. This passage is talking about a creature knowing that it was targeted by a spell, not whether or not a spell was cast. You're reading the rules about targeting.
As others have pointed out, the rules don't seem to give a satisfactory answer to the OP regarding how quietly a spell with a verbal component can be cast. It sounds like the DM has to make a call based on what's going on and what's being attempted.
How about this for a situational house ruling in some spots like this?
You decide how quietly you want to attempt to cast the spell. You will roll an arcana check. You will set the DC for yourself as to whether or not the spell is successfully cast. A high DC represents you are trying to be extremely quiet. A low DC means you are just trying to tone it down a little bit. Whether successful or not, once the attempt is made the monster will compare their Perception against the SAME DC to see if they detected the noise. (Whether active or passive, with advantage or disadvantage -- DM's call) If this is attempted outside of combat under a lack of time pressure, you'd probably have to rule that the spell slot is burned on a failure for obvious reasons, even though spell slots are typically not burned in 5e upon spell failure -- again, DM's call I guess.
I think this would be a good way of letting the player make a decision about trying something that has a possibility of failure but may be quite beneficial if successful.
There's actually no section stating that the verbal component has to be one that can be heard, at least none that I can find. Which makes sense since that goes into the whole "if a tree falls and nobody is around" type deal. For example if the caster was deaf and nobody else was there to hear. Though that's only if you were to interpret it very literally.
This is an old thread, so I had to go back and reread some of the discussions from last year. I was even part of some of them :) I think my simplest takeaway is that if a spell has a verbal component, and you don't use subtle casting metamagic, then casting the spell in the presence of other people reveals that you are verbally casting a spell. This whole thing with a bard weaving it into a song so that people might just think they are singing instead of casting... that's going to fall into the realm of storytelling rather than game mechanics for me. And I'm down with that because it's creative. But if you want to speak the verbal components so softly that people around you don't know you are casting, and therefore cannot react to it or recognize it, then you are going to need to use metamagic or something similar that explicitly allows that to happen.
Subtle spell says it removes all verbal components. It doesn't make them softer, so a whisper is NOT intruding on subtle spell.
Being gagged lets you still use subtle spell but it does not let you use a whisper.
There are dozen examples of spells that are implied to be cast surreptitiously. Secretly, that have verbal components. Should all those spells have the verbal component removed?
Tashas tried to fix this a little by saying you could hear the spell being cast from 60 feet away. But that did not answer the question of how loud the spell must be cast for it to work.
I understand this is all magic and pretty much home brew but claiming a spell has to be spoken loud enough to be heard 60ft away is wrong. By the rules it only needs to be spoken, verbalized, so a whisper is clearly inside the rules. Subtle spell is a totally different ability.
Besides what caster wants to cast spells that every single person around could hear? They all would work as hard as possible to keep things quiet.
Somatic components are pretty much the same. We have at least one spells whose description says the somatic component is as small and unnoticeable as just pointing a finger. It doesn't say from an outstretched arm, just point that finger. It doesn't even say which finger, it could be your pinky finger while your holding a tea cup to your lips.
At least make the whole thing a detector vs a casters ability check.
Besides what caster wants to cast spells that every single person around could hear? They all would work as hard as possible to keep things quiet.
There's a difference between what casters want to do and what they actually can do. If you want to cast spells surreptitiously... acquire subtle spell metamagic.
I guess hearing someone speak in a foreign tongue is one thing; realising it isn't just a foreign greeting/curse word but is in fact magical is another - and it's not as if there is one language of arcana (at the very least fey and fiend magic are going to have their own languages, as probably is ancient nature magic and Eldritch magic) - scope for arcana checks here, and/or making characters specify the original source of the spell they are using (on the understanding that if you can understand abyssal you will hear understand the warlock is about to throw a fireball at you!)
Actually, the volume doesn't have to be anything if you have the Telepathic Feat. In TCoE, the caption for the image says: "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard inspires her wizard companion" and the image shows the bard, being silent, inspiring her companion. This is RAI, as the telepathic feat itself doesn't say anything about it. I would assume that if at least 1 other creature can hear the chant, it works.
Actually, the volume doesn't have to be anything if you have the Telepathic Feat. In TCoE, the caption for the image says: "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard inspires her wizard companion" and the image shows the bard, being silent, inspiring her companion. This is RAI, as the telepathic feat itself doesn't say anything about it. I would assume that if at least 1 other creature can hear the chant, it works.
Actually, no Telepathic does not override V components. If it did, it would explicitly say so. Art has no weight on RAW and nearly as little on RAI. And the RAW of Hiding in ‘24 specifically spells out that V components break stealth.
If you speak your words of arcane magic into a helmet specially crafted with sound deadening material specifically designed to keep all of your sound from escaping, would that still count as a verbal component?
Actually, the volume doesn't have to be anything if you have the Telepathic Feat. In TCoE, the caption for the image says: "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard inspires her wizard companion" and the image shows the bard, being silent, inspiring her companion. This is RAI, as the telepathic feat itself doesn't say anything about it. I would assume that if at least 1 other creature can hear the chant, it works.
Actually, no Telepathic does not override V components. If it did, it would explicitly say so. Art has no weight on RAW and nearly as little on RAI. And the RAW of Hiding in ‘24 specifically spells out that V components break stealth.
The rules also specify that verbal components must be provided in a normal speaking voice.
If you speak your words of arcane magic into a helmet specially crafted with sound deadening material specifically designed to keep all of your sound from escaping, would that still count as a verbal component?
Given that’s functionally the effect of a Silence spell around your head, I’d go with “no”.
Actually, the volume doesn't have to be anything if you have the Telepathic Feat. In TCoE, the caption for the image says: "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard inspires her wizard companion" and the image shows the bard, being silent, inspiring her companion. This is RAI, as the telepathic feat itself doesn't say anything about it. I would assume that if at least 1 other creature can hear the chant, it works.
Bardic Inspiration is not a spell and there's no reason to think it follows the same rules -- it doesn't have a requirement of any particular volume, it has a requirement that the target be able to hear you. Using telepathy is a stretch because the ability specifies that the target can hear you and telepathy isn't hearing, but other abilities that permit the target (and no others) to hear you would be legitimate.
Actually, the volume doesn't have to be anything if you have the Telepathic Feat. In TCoE, the caption for the image says: "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard inspires her wizard companion" and the image shows the bard, being silent, inspiring her companion. This is RAI, as the telepathic feat itself doesn't say anything about it. I would assume that if at least 1 other creature can hear the chant, it works.
Actually, no Telepathic does not override V components. If it did, it would explicitly say so. Art has no weight on RAW and nearly as little on RAI. And the RAW of Hiding in ‘24 specifically spells out that V components break stealth.
It isn't that, Bardic Inspiration isn't a spell so V components don't come into it. All it requires is that the target can hear you, to a certain amount it is up to the DM but I would not have a problem with bardic inspiration works if the target hears telepathically.
If the text said "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard casts healing word on her wizard companion" I would be all with you.
So subtle spell metamagic allows you to cast at lower than normal volume so the distance at which the casting can be recognized drops from 60’ to basically 0’. Fine I would agree the question really comes with spells like magic missile, Eldritch blast, etc that have ranges greater than 60’ - if I’m a warlock and get 2 Eldritch blasts with each casting if there are 2 guards and I cast from the shadows at the edge of the woods 90’ away are they going to hear the casting and know magic is going on or a they not going to hear it and be surprised as my bolts fly out of the woods and hit them while they are looking the other way? Yes I know they might see the blasts coming but just how fast and how visible are the blasts and would that constitute a surprise attack and surprise round or not?
Actually, the volume doesn't have to be anything if you have the Telepathic Feat. In TCoE, the caption for the image says: "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard inspires her wizard companion" and the image shows the bard, being silent, inspiring her companion. This is RAI, as the telepathic feat itself doesn't say anything about it. I would assume that if at least 1 other creature can hear the chant, it works.
Actually, no Telepathic does not override V components. If it did, it would explicitly say so. Art has no weight on RAW and nearly as little on RAI. And the RAW of Hiding in ‘24 specifically spells out that V components break stealth.
It isn't that, Bardic Inspiration isn't a spell so V components don't come into it. All it requires is that the target can hear you, to a certain amount it is up to the DM but I would not have a problem with bardic inspiration works if the target hears telepathically.
If the text said "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard casts healing word on her wizard companion" I would be all with you.
Yeah somehow I got it in my mind that Bardic inspiration was a spell/something like it.
So subtle spell metamagic allows you to cast at lower than normal volume so the distance at which the casting can be recognized drops from 60’ to basically 0’. Fine I would agree the question really comes with spells like magic missile, Eldritch blast, etc that have ranges greater than 60’ - if I’m a warlock and get 2 Eldritch blasts with each casting if there are 2 guards and I cast from the shadows at the edge of the woods 90’ away are they going to hear the casting and know magic is going on or a they not going to hear it and be surprised as my bolts fly out of the woods and hit them while they are looking the other way? Yes I know they might see the blasts coming but just how fast and how visible are the blasts and would that constitute a surprise attack and surprise round or not?
That's a mechanic wholly separate from sound. If, when initiative is rolled, you are undetected, then hostile creatures are Surprised and cannot take actions or reactions during the first round of combat (it's a little more involved than that, but this is basically how it goes). Initiative is rolled when someone declares their intent to start combat, so the V component cannot occur before Surprise is resolved. If you are unseen via hiding, invisibility, heavy obscurement, etc. then your attack rolls have advantage. Now, I would rule that V components always give away your position in combat (and this has essentially been codified in '24), so even if you'd done something that didn't draw a line back to your position you'd still be exposed after casting the spell.
My point really was that technically the verbal component comes before the spell effect so if you would have surprise would the verbalization, when out of hearing range (60’) break the surprise allowing a reaction like a counterspell? The twang of a bow/xbow certainly doesn’t so neither should the verbal component. That the spell effect notifies them that they are in combat but can do nothing that surprise round I have no problem with. That something - the glint of sun off armor, a rush of birds from the woods around you etc just before your attack could easily break the surprise so the question is does the verbal component do so. - especially if beyond the “normal hearing range” (60’). I would say no, but the rules are somewhat open to interpretation.
My point really was that technically the verbal component comes before the spell effect so if you would have surprise would the verbalization, when out of hearing range (60’) break the surprise allowing a reaction like a counterspell? The twang of a bow/xbow certainly doesn’t so neither should the verbal component. That the spell effect notifies them that they are in combat but can do nothing that surprise round I have no problem with. That something - the glint of sun off armor, a rush of birds from the woods around you etc just before your attack could easily break the surprise so the question is does the verbal component do so. - especially if beyond the “normal hearing range” (60’). I would say no, but the rules are somewhat open to interpretation.
Where exactly are you getting 60' from? I don't recall any entries in the books setting that as the hard limit of hearing.
And, again, for the purposes of combat mechanics sounds don't alter the relevant rules; Surprise is based on being undetected when Initiative is rolled, which happens before anyone takes any actions and therefore any spell components can come into play, and advantage on the roll comes from being unseen, not unheard.
Sorry, no, you're wrong. You're just making stuff up with the PP 10 too. That's not in any rulebook to my knowledge. This however, is:
PHB P204 / SRD says
Targeted. This passage is talking about a creature knowing that it was targeted by a spell, not whether or not a spell was cast. You're reading the rules about targeting.
As others have pointed out, the rules don't seem to give a satisfactory answer to the OP regarding how quietly a spell with a verbal component can be cast. It sounds like the DM has to make a call based on what's going on and what's being attempted.
How about this for a situational house ruling in some spots like this?
You decide how quietly you want to attempt to cast the spell. You will roll an arcana check. You will set the DC for yourself as to whether or not the spell is successfully cast. A high DC represents you are trying to be extremely quiet. A low DC means you are just trying to tone it down a little bit. Whether successful or not, once the attempt is made the monster will compare their Perception against the SAME DC to see if they detected the noise. (Whether active or passive, with advantage or disadvantage -- DM's call) If this is attempted outside of combat under a lack of time pressure, you'd probably have to rule that the spell slot is burned on a failure for obvious reasons, even though spell slots are typically not burned in 5e upon spell failure -- again, DM's call I guess.
I think this would be a good way of letting the player make a decision about trying something that has a possibility of failure but may be quite beneficial if successful.
There's actually no section stating that the verbal component has to be one that can be heard, at least none that I can find. Which makes sense since that goes into the whole "if a tree falls and nobody is around" type deal. For example if the caster was deaf and nobody else was there to hear. Though that's only if you were to interpret it very literally.
This is an old thread, so I had to go back and reread some of the discussions from last year. I was even part of some of them :) I think my simplest takeaway is that if a spell has a verbal component, and you don't use subtle casting metamagic, then casting the spell in the presence of other people reveals that you are verbally casting a spell. This whole thing with a bard weaving it into a song so that people might just think they are singing instead of casting... that's going to fall into the realm of storytelling rather than game mechanics for me. And I'm down with that because it's creative. But if you want to speak the verbal components so softly that people around you don't know you are casting, and therefore cannot react to it or recognize it, then you are going to need to use metamagic or something similar that explicitly allows that to happen.
That's how I see it, at least.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Subtle spell says it removes all verbal components. It doesn't make them softer, so a whisper is NOT intruding on subtle spell.
Being gagged lets you still use subtle spell but it does not let you use a whisper.
There are dozen examples of spells that are implied to be cast surreptitiously. Secretly, that have verbal components. Should all those spells have the verbal component removed?
Tashas tried to fix this a little by saying you could hear the spell being cast from 60 feet away. But that did not answer the question of how loud the spell must be cast for it to work.
I understand this is all magic and pretty much home brew but claiming a spell has to be spoken loud enough to be heard 60ft away is wrong. By the rules it only needs to be spoken, verbalized, so a whisper is clearly inside the rules. Subtle spell is a totally different ability.
Besides what caster wants to cast spells that every single person around could hear? They all would work as hard as possible to keep things quiet.
Somatic components are pretty much the same. We have at least one spells whose description says the somatic component is as small and unnoticeable as just pointing a finger. It doesn't say from an outstretched arm, just point that finger. It doesn't even say which finger, it could be your pinky finger while your holding a tea cup to your lips.
At least make the whole thing a detector vs a casters ability check.
There's a difference between what casters want to do and what they actually can do. If you want to cast spells surreptitiously... acquire subtle spell metamagic.
I guess hearing someone speak in a foreign tongue is one thing; realising it isn't just a foreign greeting/curse word but is in fact magical is another - and it's not as if there is one language of arcana (at the very least fey and fiend magic are going to have their own languages, as probably is ancient nature magic and Eldritch magic) - scope for arcana checks here, and/or making characters specify the original source of the spell they are using (on the understanding that if you can understand abyssal you will hear understand the warlock is about to throw a fireball at you!)
Actually, the volume doesn't have to be anything if you have the Telepathic Feat. In TCoE, the caption for the image says: "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard inspires her wizard companion" and the image shows the bard, being silent, inspiring her companion. This is RAI, as the telepathic feat itself doesn't say anything about it. I would assume that if at least 1 other creature can hear the chant, it works.
Roll for Initiative: [roll]1d20+7[/roll]
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Actually, no Telepathic does not override V components. If it did, it would explicitly say so. Art has no weight on RAW and nearly as little on RAI. And the RAW of Hiding in ‘24 specifically spells out that V components break stealth.
If you speak your words of arcane magic into a helmet specially crafted with sound deadening material specifically designed to keep all of your sound from escaping, would that still count as a verbal component?
The rules also specify that verbal components must be provided in a normal speaking voice.
Given that’s functionally the effect of a Silence spell around your head, I’d go with “no”.
Bardic Inspiration is not a spell and there's no reason to think it follows the same rules -- it doesn't have a requirement of any particular volume, it has a requirement that the target be able to hear you. Using telepathy is a stretch because the ability specifies that the target can hear you and telepathy isn't hearing, but other abilities that permit the target (and no others) to hear you would be legitimate.
It isn't that, Bardic Inspiration isn't a spell so V components don't come into it. All it requires is that the target can hear you, to a certain amount it is up to the DM but I would not have a problem with bardic inspiration works if the target hears telepathically.
If the text said "Astride a unicorn, a telepathic bard casts healing word on her wizard companion" I would be all with you.
So subtle spell metamagic allows you to cast at lower than normal volume so the distance at which the casting can be recognized drops from 60’ to basically 0’. Fine I would agree the question really comes with spells like magic missile, Eldritch blast, etc that have ranges greater than 60’ - if I’m a warlock and get 2 Eldritch blasts with each casting if there are 2 guards and I cast from the shadows at the edge of the woods 90’ away are they going to hear the casting and know magic is going on or a they not going to hear it and be surprised as my bolts fly out of the woods and hit them while they are looking the other way? Yes I know they might see the blasts coming but just how fast and how visible are the blasts and would that constitute a surprise attack and surprise round or not?
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Yeah somehow I got it in my mind that Bardic inspiration was a spell/something like it.
Roll for Initiative: [roll]1d20+7[/roll]
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That's a mechanic wholly separate from sound. If, when initiative is rolled, you are undetected, then hostile creatures are Surprised and cannot take actions or reactions during the first round of combat (it's a little more involved than that, but this is basically how it goes). Initiative is rolled when someone declares their intent to start combat, so the V component cannot occur before Surprise is resolved. If you are unseen via hiding, invisibility, heavy obscurement, etc. then your attack rolls have advantage. Now, I would rule that V components always give away your position in combat (and this has essentially been codified in '24), so even if you'd done something that didn't draw a line back to your position you'd still be exposed after casting the spell.
My point really was that technically the verbal component comes before the spell effect so if you would have surprise would the verbalization, when out of hearing range (60’) break the surprise allowing a reaction like a counterspell? The twang of a bow/xbow certainly doesn’t so neither should the verbal component. That the spell effect notifies them that they are in combat but can do nothing that surprise round I have no problem with. That something - the glint of sun off armor, a rush of birds from the woods around you etc just before your attack could easily break the surprise so the question is does the verbal component do so. - especially if beyond the “normal hearing range” (60’). I would say no, but the rules are somewhat open to interpretation.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Where exactly are you getting 60' from? I don't recall any entries in the books setting that as the hard limit of hearing.
And, again, for the purposes of combat mechanics sounds don't alter the relevant rules; Surprise is based on being undetected when Initiative is rolled, which happens before anyone takes any actions and therefore any spell components can come into play, and advantage on the roll comes from being unseen, not unheard.