The Healing Spirit spell is a good example. Ridiculously overpowered for a 2nd level spell when used out of combat.
True, but the designers have said that out of combat healing is so easy to come by that encounters are designed for players starting at max health (I don't remember if the exact quote is in regards to "full resources" or just "full health"). If you want to spend your second level slots on out of combat healing, then fine. The game is not perfectly balanced, but most of the places where there is an imbalance are due to unforeseen consequences of a design decision
I would disagree with you about the inconseqence of OOC healing. Getting a short rest between encounters is not a simple matter in all campaigns. This aspect really depends on the DM. Please also note that Healing Spirit has no limit on # of creatures affected. Therefore, if you had a platoon of NPC allies (*cough* Conjure Animals *cough*), they would also benefit from this spell. Again, not consequential until it become Very consequential. Anyway, that's one of several examples of how design decisions aren't always balanced. Back to the main topic, please.
"Break the balance" so far just seems to mean "it was not designed that way."
I mean it certainly is true that it was not designed that way, but I think i did an effective job explaining of how it invalidates the role of all other druid sub-classes in favor of Moon. That may not be game breakingly more powerful than a pure caster, but it is certainly not good game design. I do completely disagree about multi-classing though. You multi-class to get the advantages of another class (a huge spell list, metamagic, no loss in spell slots), not an additional subclass from your class as well as another class. AND some people DO multi-class for RP reasons and might choose two desperate classes because of story reasons.
No, you haven't b/c Moon Druids do not get this ability automatically. They would need to take 3 levels of Sorcerer to do so And suffer the ability score drain that results from making a character with above average CHA and WIS to even exist. Most Druids use CHA as a dump stat for a reason.
Yes, some people mulit-class for RP-only purposes. Heck, I'm one of those people. But I'm well aware that most people like making combat-effective characters b/c it feels good to win. My point is Most multi-class builds you see people talk about on Enworld or Reddit or here on DDB exist to get some kind of Advantage. Most people don't bother boasting about a character that they already know to be sub-optimal unless it's for laughs. So you haven't proven anything b/c you have not provided any substantial examples of a how a dual-class Druid/Sorcerer is OHMYGAWD OP! compared to a pure Druid.
Lets look at it this way: Does it make sense that a three level dip in an imaginary class enough to let a land druid wildshape into level/3 CR beasts?
Your suggestion allows a full caster (for example, a 10 Druid/ 3 sorc still has 7th level slots, though he can only upcast 5th level druid spells or 2nd level sorc spells with them) with more than double the hit points of a straight druid or sorc while in wildshape (we're talking around 200 total HP at level 13). The caster can choose to have a +5 con for concentration checks by selecting an appropriate form, or choose a +5 dex and add mage armor (on the sorc spell list) to have an AC of 18. The character gets bonus action self-healing that consumes spell slots, but doesn't count as casting so can in the same round use other spells. All of this makes a caster that is much harder to kill.
It has been pointed out that pure moon druids can't re-cast concentration spells. This change would not only allow that, but allow use of those non-concentration spells.
You mentioned that Cha is normally a dump stat for druids. A druid that spends all of his time in forms can dump str and dex with no issue. It can also dump int unless he wants to be good in some skills, so has plenty of room to meet the stat prereqs.
If you find none of this OP compared to a 13th level pure class, then it is fine to use it in your game. After looking into it, I DO think it is a bit too much. But even if it isn't OP, since it invalidates a choice, I think it is bad game design and wouldn't allow it.
You're acting as if Sorcery points were an unlimited resource. A 3rd level Sorcerer only get 3 of them at level 3. That means that a Druid/Sorc could have 3 castings of Subtle Spell. Any higher levels in Sorcercer and their Druid spell list is even more diminished.
A druid can still only stay in Wildshape for an hour. Most players will not Wildshape first thing in the morning because that would often be wasting a valuable resource. Therefore DEX still does matter for the Moon Druid, as it always has. There is only 1 choice for a Moon druid who wants +5 DEX, the Air Elemental. Most other higher than CR 2 choices only give you a +2 to DEX. With Mage Armor, that's an AC of 15, which is not much protection after level 5. A Moon Druid Wildshaping into any elemental expends ALL of their Wildshape resources until the next short rest, which just reinforces my previous point that dumping DEX is still a bad idea for Moon druids.
If Moon Druids had access to the higher tier Sorcerer spell list through this ability, I would agree with you. However, most of the non-material component Druid spells are not that powerful. Giant Insect? Conjure Minor Elementals? Prior to level 8, the only really powerful option for a non-material component concentration spell is an upcast Conjure Animals. But how is using an action to cast those spells much different than casting and Then using a bonus action to get into Wildshape? Honestly, not much most of the time.
Obviously we disagree on opinion, so I'll no longer bother arguing that.
Two points of fact: A third level sorcerer gets a maximum of 3 sorcery points and the ability to convert spell slots into them. They are not unlimited but also not limited to 3. Whether this is more valuable than being able to convert slots into d8's of healing or just using them is again opinion, so I won't bother giving mine.
A druid can wildshape for a number of hours equal to its druid level divided by 2 (rounded down).
You know what? You've convinced me that if I were to allow this at my table, I would, at the very least, prohibit the highest level concentration spells available to the character, including upcast versions of lower level spells. So a Sorc 3/Druid 7 could not cast concentration spells using any 4th level spell slots, for example. Or maybe prohibit 4th level spells in general at that level. Still need to think about this a bit more.
it depends on your DM, is he a rules as written (RAW) or rules as intended (RAI)?
mechanically, no. but the words were written from a single class point. the druid ability lists that you can't use spells, then ads futher information. implying that the can't cast spells due to the lack of manual dexterity and words that is caused by wild shape. as a RAI DM i would allow it. it gives some advantages, but also takes away others.
multi-clasing often means sacrificing bigger powers at higher levels.
yes you could become an owl and then peper spells while flying, but other spell casters can also do this. flying/levitate is a concentration spell, but most of the attack spells are not.
the biggest impact is the utility caster. to augment actions. be a mouse sneaking with enhance ability, or guidance. but the limitation of the material compaonent limits this. as i would not allow the use of a focus to be used while it is stored in wild shape.
Now that Unearthed Arcana 2020 is out, Metamagic Adept would bring up the question in a character who doesn’t take 3 levels in Sorcerer. Does that change anyone’s opinion? Or do most here not allow the feats in this supplement?
(Speaking for myself, I think Metamagic Adept is ridiculously overpowered. Most “Adept” feats provide benefits appropriate to first level players; this provides an ability not available to Sorcerers until level 3. I honestly don’t know if I’d allow this Feat as written, with or without the Druid question.)
Now that Unearthed Arcana 2020 is out, Metamagic Adept would bring up the question in a character who doesn’t take 3 levels in Sorcerer. Does that change anyone’s opinion? Or do most here not allow the feats in this supplement?
(Speaking for myself, I think Metamagic Adept is ridiculously overpowered. Most “Adept” feats provide benefits appropriate to first level players; this provides an ability not available to Sorcerers until level 3. I honestly don’t know if I’d allow this Feat as written, with or without the Druid question.)
Rules-wise, UA means nothing until it is released
It doesn't change anything as written. Druids in Wild Shape are unable to cast any spells unless they have 18 levels in the Druid class.
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I would disagree with you about the inconseqence of OOC healing. Getting a short rest between encounters is not a simple matter in all campaigns. This aspect really depends on the DM. Please also note that Healing Spirit has no limit on # of creatures affected. Therefore, if you had a platoon of NPC allies (*cough* Conjure Animals *cough*), they would also benefit from this spell. Again, not consequential until it become Very consequential. Anyway, that's one of several examples of how design decisions aren't always balanced. Back to the main topic, please.
I mean it certainly is true that it was not designed that way, but I think i did an effective job explaining of how it invalidates the role of all other druid sub-classes in favor of Moon. That may not be game breakingly more powerful than a pure caster, but it is certainly not good game design. I do completely disagree about multi-classing though. You multi-class to get the advantages of another class (a huge spell list, metamagic, no loss in spell slots), not an additional subclass from your class as well as another class. AND some people DO multi-class for RP reasons and might choose two desperate classes because of story reasons.
No, you haven't b/c Moon Druids do not get this ability automatically. They would need to take 3 levels of Sorcerer to do so And suffer the ability score drain that results from making a character with above average CHA and WIS to even exist. Most Druids use CHA as a dump stat for a reason.
Yes, some people mulit-class for RP-only purposes. Heck, I'm one of those people. But I'm well aware that most people like making combat-effective characters b/c it feels good to win. My point is Most multi-class builds you see people talk about on Enworld or Reddit or here on DDB exist to get some kind of Advantage. Most people don't bother boasting about a character that they already know to be sub-optimal unless it's for laughs. So you haven't proven anything b/c you have not provided any substantial examples of a how a dual-class Druid/Sorcerer is OHMYGAWD OP! compared to a pure Druid.
Lets look at it this way: Does it make sense that a three level dip in an imaginary class enough to let a land druid wildshape into level/3 CR beasts?
Your suggestion allows a full caster (for example, a 10 Druid/ 3 sorc still has 7th level slots, though he can only upcast 5th level druid spells or 2nd level sorc spells with them) with more than double the hit points of a straight druid or sorc while in wildshape (we're talking around 200 total HP at level 13). The caster can choose to have a +5 con for concentration checks by selecting an appropriate form, or choose a +5 dex and add mage armor (on the sorc spell list) to have an AC of 18. The character gets bonus action self-healing that consumes spell slots, but doesn't count as casting so can in the same round use other spells. All of this makes a caster that is much harder to kill.
It has been pointed out that pure moon druids can't re-cast concentration spells. This change would not only allow that, but allow use of those non-concentration spells.
You mentioned that Cha is normally a dump stat for druids. A druid that spends all of his time in forms can dump str and dex with no issue. It can also dump int unless he wants to be good in some skills, so has plenty of room to meet the stat prereqs.
If you find none of this OP compared to a 13th level pure class, then it is fine to use it in your game. After looking into it, I DO think it is a bit too much. But even if it isn't OP, since it invalidates a choice, I think it is bad game design and wouldn't allow it.
You're acting as if Sorcery points were an unlimited resource. A 3rd level Sorcerer only get 3 of them at level 3. That means that a Druid/Sorc could have 3 castings of Subtle Spell. Any higher levels in Sorcercer and their Druid spell list is even more diminished.
A druid can still only stay in Wildshape for an hour. Most players will not Wildshape first thing in the morning because that would often be wasting a valuable resource. Therefore DEX still does matter for the Moon Druid, as it always has. There is only 1 choice for a Moon druid who wants +5 DEX, the Air Elemental. Most other higher than CR 2 choices only give you a +2 to DEX. With Mage Armor, that's an AC of 15, which is not much protection after level 5. A Moon Druid Wildshaping into any elemental expends ALL of their Wildshape resources until the next short rest, which just reinforces my previous point that dumping DEX is still a bad idea for Moon druids.
If Moon Druids had access to the higher tier Sorcerer spell list through this ability, I would agree with you. However, most of the non-material component Druid spells are not that powerful. Giant Insect? Conjure Minor Elementals? Prior to level 8, the only really powerful option for a non-material component concentration spell is an upcast Conjure Animals. But how is using an action to cast those spells much different than casting and Then using a bonus action to get into Wildshape? Honestly, not much most of the time.
Obviously we disagree on opinion, so I'll no longer bother arguing that.
Two points of fact: A third level sorcerer gets a maximum of 3 sorcery points and the ability to convert spell slots into them. They are not unlimited but also not limited to 3. Whether this is more valuable than being able to convert slots into d8's of healing or just using them is again opinion, so I won't bother giving mine.
A druid can wildshape for a number of hours equal to its druid level divided by 2 (rounded down).
You know what? You've convinced me that if I were to allow this at my table, I would, at the very least, prohibit the highest level concentration spells available to the character, including upcast versions of lower level spells. So a Sorc 3/Druid 7 could not cast concentration spells using any 4th level spell slots, for example. Or maybe prohibit 4th level spells in general at that level. Still need to think about this a bit more.
it depends on your DM, is he a rules as written (RAW) or rules as intended (RAI)?
mechanically, no. but the words were written from a single class point. the druid ability lists that you can't use spells, then ads futher information. implying that the can't cast spells due to the lack of manual dexterity and words that is caused by wild shape. as a RAI DM i would allow it. it gives some advantages, but also takes away others.
multi-clasing often means sacrificing bigger powers at higher levels.
yes you could become an owl and then peper spells while flying, but other spell casters can also do this. flying/levitate is a concentration spell, but most of the attack spells are not.
the biggest impact is the utility caster. to augment actions. be a mouse sneaking with enhance ability, or guidance. but the limitation of the material compaonent limits this. as i would not allow the use of a focus to be used while it is stored in wild shape.
Now that Unearthed Arcana 2020 is out, Metamagic Adept would bring up the question in a character who doesn’t take 3 levels in Sorcerer. Does that change anyone’s opinion? Or do most here not allow the feats in this supplement?
(Speaking for myself, I think Metamagic Adept is ridiculously overpowered. Most “Adept” feats provide benefits appropriate to first level players; this provides an ability not available to Sorcerers until level 3. I honestly don’t know if I’d allow this Feat as written, with or without the Druid question.)
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.