So the rules for casting a spell while using an Arcane focus are OUT OF SCOPE for casting a spell while using an arcane focus?
The rules for casting a spell while using an arcane focus are out of scope for casting a spell that does not have an 'M' component, because what an arcane focus does is replace a 'M' component.
This has also been clarified in the official document meant to clarify rules ambiguities, the Sage Advice Compendium:
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
That doesn't make any sense and is probably wrong. The cleric can't cast Aid in that situation AT ALL because they're holding a shield and a mace. The holy symbol is ON the shield, it isn't IS the shield. So they don't have a free hand ever, in that scenario.
But if they were actually holding a holy symbol, then that'd be a totally different scenario, and they're be able to perform S components with that hand just fine.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you are casting a spell that does not require “M Components” but does have “S Components” then you must have a “free hand” to perform those “S Components.” If you are holding a stick, then your hand is not “free.”
True, but if you are holding an Arcane Focus:
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
And that section of Spellcasting says:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Which is RAW. I know this because I'm actually quoting the rules, as they are written. That's what RAW means.
Actually, the rules say:
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Notice how the only mention of an Arcane Focus is under the “Material (M)” section? That means that an Arcane Focus only applies when a spell has “Material (M) Components”
Or, if you only respond to bits and pieces chopped all out of sequence:
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
That doesn't make any sense and is probably wrong. The cleric can't cast Aid in that situation AT ALL because they're holding a shield and a mace. The holy symbol is ON the shield, it isn't IS the shield. So they don't have a free hand ever, in that scenario.
But if they were actually holding a holy symbol, then that'd be a totally different scenario, and they're be able to perform S components with that hand just fine.
From the Player's Handbook:
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
So the rules for casting a spell while using an Arcane focus are OUT OF SCOPE for casting a spell while using an arcane focus?
The rules for casting a spell while using an arcane focus are out of scope for casting a spell that does not have an 'M' component, because what an arcane focus does is replace a 'M' component.
They're not out of scope the Arcane Focus specifically invokes them in the text of the object. That section of the rules is always relevant while you are using the arcane focus! It describes how the arcane focus works. While you are holding it, that's the relevant section.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So again, from the writers and creators of the game themselves in an official document meant to clarify rules ambiguities, call the Sage Advice Compendium:
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures.
If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If you are casting a spell that does not require “M Components” but does have “S Components” then you must have a “free hand” to perform those “S Components.” If you are holding a stick, then your hand is not “free.”
True, but if you are holding an Arcane Focus:
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
And that section of Spellcasting says:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Which is RAW. I know this because I'm actually quoting the rules, as they are written. That's what RAW means.
Actually, the rules say:
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Notice how the only mention of an Arcane Focus is under the “Material (M)” section? That means that an Arcane Focus only applies when a spell has “Material (M) Components”
Or, if you only respond to bits and pieces chopped all out of sequence:
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
I've tried that tactic. It didn't get the message across.
So again, from the writers and creators of the game themselves in an official document meant to clarify rules ambiguities, call the Sage Advice Compendium:
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures.
If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
That is discussing a Holy Symbol. Technically it is discussing a shield. They have different text. Ie. different rules as written. I understand there are similarities between them, certainly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you are casting a spell that does not require “M Components” but does have “S Components” then you must have a “free hand” to perform those “S Components.” If you are holding a stick, then your hand is not “free.”
True, but if you are holding an Arcane Focus:
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
And that section of Spellcasting says:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Which is RAW. I know this because I'm actually quoting the rules, as they are written. That's what RAW means.
Actually, the rules say:
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Notice how the only mention of an Arcane Focus is under the “Material (M)” section? That means that an Arcane Focus only applies when a spell has “Material (M) Components”
Or, if you only respond to bits and pieces chopped all out of sequence:
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
I've tried that tactic. It didn't get the message across.
At best, your view would be correct if the DM rules that the word "components" included all components and not just the objects referred to by "Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry." If you're the DM and want to rule that way, it's within your purview. If your DM rules that way, awesome. The vast majority of people who have commented on this post have expressed a different reading, which means that you would be less likely to find that DM statistically speaking.
Your car analogy is...muddled. Please stick to the rules text. My view is 100% correct. Chanel spell through arcane focus. Description on Arcane focus says to see Spellcasting rules, specifically in Material Components section, for how it functions. This section says S components can be completed with same hand holding the focus.
Super simple, literally just follows the rules as they tell us to.
Where am I going wrong? By actually doing what the rules says to do? Sorry what?
If I'm looking at the requirements that I need, I see V and S. If I look up only this components, I see nothing that says anything about an arcane focus.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
No mention of Arcane Focus, Druidic Focus, or Holy Symbol (which are all equivalents as far as the discussion goes). Without telling you that you can use the arcane focus et al, you don't know it exists as far as those components are concerned.
No one is arguing that the Arcane Focus can be used to replace Material Components, because it says so in the Material Components section. No one is saying that the hand that is holding the Arcane Focus can perform the somatic components when material components are in play, because the rules tell you they can. It's a specific case that beats the general rule that the caster needs a free hand to perform the Somatic component. If it was intended for the arcane focus to be able to be in the hand and perform the somatic component when no material component was present, the rules in the Somatic component section would have said so.
Again, I see where this comes from. But. You can only reach this conclusion if you entirely ignore the actual text of the Arcane Focus.
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
So, the rules for M components are not invoked if you cast a Ray of Frost normally, true. very true.
But they ARE invoked if you channel your arcane spell through your arcane focus, as per the text of the object itself. See the Spellcasting rules, specifically the Material Components section, to determine how that works.
In that section you will find the rule stating you can hold the spellcasting focus with the same hand performing the S component.
So by channeling your spell through the arcane focus, you invoke the M component section rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
At best, your view would be correct if the DM rules that the word "components" included all components and not just the objects referred to by "Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry." If you're the DM and want to rule that way, it's within your purview. If your DM rules that way, awesome. The vast majority of people who have commented on this post have expressed a different reading, which means that you would be less likely to find that DM statistically speaking.
Your car analogy is...muddled. Please stick to the rules text. My view is 100% correct. Chanel spell through arcane focus. Description on Arcane focus says to see Spellcasting rules, specifically in Material Components section, for how it functions. This section says S components can be completed with same hand holding the focus.
Super simple, literally just follows the rules as they tell us to.
Where am I going wrong? By actually doing what the rules says to do? Sorry what?
If I'm looking at the requirements that I need, I see V and S. If I look up only this components, I see nothing that says anything about an arcane focus.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
No mention of Arcane Focus, Druidic Focus, or Holy Symbol (which are all equivalents as far as the discussion goes). Without telling you that you can use the arcane focus et al, you don't know it exists as far as those components are concerned.
No one is arguing that the Arcane Focus can be used to replace Material Components, because it says so in the Material Components section. No one is saying that the hand that is holding the Arcane Focus can perform the somatic components when material components are in play, because the rules tell you they can. It's a specific case that beats the general rule that the caster needs a free hand to perform the Somatic component. If it was intended for the arcane focus to be able to be in the hand and perform the somatic component when no material component was present, the rules in the Somatic component section would have said so.
Again, I see where this comes from. But. You can only reach this conclusion if you entirely ignore the actual text of the Arcane Focus.
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
So, the rules for M components are not invoked if you cast a Ray of Frost normally, true. very true.
But they ARE invoked if you channel your arcane spell through your arcane focus, as per the text of the object itself. See the Spellcasting rules, specifically the Material Components section, to determine how that works.
In that section you will find the rule stating you can hold the spellcasting focus with the same hand performing the S component.
So by channeling your spell through the arcane focus, you invoke the M component section rules.
Incorrect. The M components are detailed per spell. If the spell does not already require M components, you cannot invoke those rules simply by using an Arcane Focus.
I'm not trolling, y'all just wrong. Y'all giving me a taste of what Galileo went though. Though, probably moderately less risk of execution tbh.
I legit have no idea why you guys can't read the rules text as it is written and follow them to the same conclusion. I'm literally just reading rules text here. That's like, what RAW is.
Yall wanna talk about cars and fighter and swords n whatnot. But, none of that is relevant to Arcane Focuses and spellcasting so I'm not really sure if it isn't me getting trolled here after all or what.
When you use an object, you refer to the rules governing it, right? Well, when you use an Arcane Focus, you need to refer to the rules text governing that object. <--- This seems to be what y'all refuse to do.
You want an analogy? I guess I can try my hand at the analogy game. You guys as insisting that melee attacks cannot be made further than 5 ft away, because making an attack doesn't reference being able to do that. But I'm like, guys, we're holding a Halberd, and that object has its own specific rules to consider too! Specifically, Reach. So you need to reference the rules the object you're using actually references.
Which, in our case, is the Arcane Focus rules text that I've quoted here like way too many times already. But I'll do it again:
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
When we use this object, we follow its rules text!
And it tells us to see the Spellcrafting rules for how that works. So... that's what we need to do.
And Bam. Right then and there, we are now all up in the Material Component rules. Click the blue link. Where do you go?
If you use an Arcane Focus to channel an arcane spell, you invoke the Material Component section rules. All of this follows from just reading the text of the object itself.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not trolling, y'all just wrong. Y'all giving me a taste of what Galileo went though. Though, probably moderately less risk of execution tbh.
I legit have no idea why you guys can't read the rules text as it is written and follow them to the same conclusion. I'm literally just reading rules text here. That's like, what RAW is.
Yall wanna talk about cars and fighter and swords n whatnot. But, none of that is relevant to Arcane Focuses and spellcasting so I'm not really sure if it isn't me getting trolled here after all or what.
When you use an object, you refer to the rules governing it, right? Well, when you use an Arcane Focus, you need to refer to the rules text governing that object. <--- This seems to be what y'all refuse to do.
You want an analogy? I guess I can try my hand at the analogy game. You guys as insisting that melee attacks cannot be made further than 5 ft away, because making an attack doesn't reference being able to do that. But I'm like, guys, we're holding a Halberd, and that object has its own specific rules to consider too! Specifically, Reach. So you need to reference the rules the object you're using actually references.
Which, in our case, is the Arcane Focus rules text that I've quoted here like way too many times already. But I'll do it again:
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
When we use this object, we follow its rules text!
And it tells us to see the Spellcrafting rules for how that works. So... that's what we need to do.
And Bam. Right then and there, we are now all up in the Material Component rules. Click the blue link. Where do you go?
If you use an Arcane Focus to channel an arcane spell, you invoke the Material Component section rules. All of this follows from just reading the text of the object itself.
🤦♂️ Incorrect. The M components are detailed per spell. If the spell does not already require M components, you cannot invoke those rules simply by using an Arcane Focus.
🤦♂️ Incorrect. The M components are detailed per spell. If the spell does not already require M components, you cannot invoke those rules simply by using an Arcane Focus.
That doesn't make any sense. You MUST use the applicable text of an object when you are using that object. Like I've said, the only way to reach your conclusion it to willfully IGNORE the item description itself.
Every time you use an Arcane Focus, you MUST follow the rules text for that object:
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
So, when you channel a spell through your Arcane Focus...
You're now using the Material Components section of the rules. Because the object itself said so.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
🤦♂️ Incorrect. The M components are detailed per spell. If the spell does not already require M components, you cannot invoke those rules simply by using an Arcane Focus.
That doesn't make any sense. You MUST use the applicable text of an object when you are using that object. Like I've said, the only way to reach your conclusion it to willfully IGNORE the item description itself.
Every time you use an Arcane Focus, you MUST follow the rules text for that object:
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
So, when you channel a spell through your Arcane Focus...
You're now using the Material Components section of the rules. Because the object itself said so.
And when you follow that link you get this:
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
The only way to get to your conclusion is by ignoring the entire first paragraph of the thing you keep referring to. And that is the only RAW use of an Arcane Focus.
That is discussing a Holy Symbol. Technically it is discussing a shield. They have different text. Ie. different rules as written. I understand there are similarities between them, certainly.
And again ... from the Player's Handbook, in Chapter 5, under "Other Adventuring Gear."
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, orbear it on a shield.
Maybe if I put them together and make them real big.
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Again Ravnodaus, you are conflating the description of a thing with the rules that tell you when they are applicable. The description of a shield doesn’t tell you who can wear one.
That is discussing a Holy Symbol. Technically it is discussing a shield. They have different text. Ie. different rules as written. I understand there are similarities between them, certainly.
And again ... from the Player's Handbook, in Chapter 5, under "Other Adventuring Gear."
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
Maybe if I put them together and make them real big.
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
I'm still not sure why you're talking about holy symbols here. We're talking about an arcane focus, well, I am anyway. I know that there are similarities between them but they're not the same object.
Moreover, in the example in that sage advice, the scenario painted the caster isn't even holding a Holy Symbol at all. He is holding a shield. I'm sure we can both agree a shield isn't an arcane focus. Nor is it a spellcasting focus.
Normally you would NOT be able to cast a spell and use a shield hand to do the S components, and that linked text seems to clarify that they intended a shield with a holy symbol on it to still at least provide that flexibility in those cases. Because normally you couldn't use a shield hand like that in any way shape or form. And, any normal reading of the Holy symbol, material components, or spellcasting focus texts wouldn't lead anyone to the conclusion that a shield hand could also be used in this way under this situation. So they added it to their sage advise to clarify that it should be allowed in that situation.
But none of that has zilch to do with an arcane focus. You can't put an arcane focus on a shield. It is totally irrelevant to this topic.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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The rules for casting a spell while using an arcane focus are out of scope for casting a spell that does not have an 'M' component, because what an arcane focus does is replace a 'M' component.
That doesn't make any sense and is probably wrong. The cleric can't cast Aid in that situation AT ALL because they're holding a shield and a mace. The holy symbol is ON the shield, it isn't IS the shield. So they don't have a free hand ever, in that scenario.
But if they were actually holding a holy symbol, then that'd be a totally different scenario, and they're be able to perform S components with that hand just fine.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Actually, the rules say:
Notice how the only mention of an Arcane Focus is under the “Material (M)” section? That means that an Arcane Focus only applies when a spell has “Material (M) Components”
Or, if you only respond to bits and pieces chopped all out of sequence:
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From the Player's Handbook:
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
They're not out of scope the Arcane Focus specifically invokes them in the text of the object. That section of the rules is always relevant while you are using the arcane focus! It describes how the arcane focus works. While you are holding it, that's the relevant section.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Edit:
Ophidimancer got it first and too long to leave in place.
So again, from the writers and creators of the game themselves in an official document meant to clarify rules ambiguities, call the Sage Advice Compendium:
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I've tried that tactic. It didn't get the message across.
That is discussing a Holy Symbol. Technically it is discussing a shield. They have different text. Ie. different rules as written. I understand there are similarities between them, certainly.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yes. The rules that tell you when you can use something are important to knowing when you can use something. It is pretty obvious.
At this point I suspect deliberate thising.
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Again, I see where this comes from. But. You can only reach this conclusion if you entirely ignore the actual text of the Arcane Focus.
So, the rules for M components are not invoked if you cast a Ray of Frost normally, true. very true.
But they ARE invoked if you channel your arcane spell through your arcane focus, as per the text of the object itself. See the Spellcasting rules, specifically the Material Components section, to determine how that works.
In that section you will find the rule stating you can hold the spellcasting focus with the same hand performing the S component.
So by channeling your spell through the arcane focus, you invoke the M component section rules.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Incorrect. The M components are detailed per spell. If the spell does not already require M components, you cannot invoke those rules simply by using an Arcane Focus.
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I'm not trolling, y'all just wrong. Y'all giving me a taste of what Galileo went though. Though, probably moderately less risk of execution tbh.
I legit have no idea why you guys can't read the rules text as it is written and follow them to the same conclusion. I'm literally just reading rules text here. That's like, what RAW is.
Yall wanna talk about cars and fighter and swords n whatnot. But, none of that is relevant to Arcane Focuses and spellcasting so I'm not really sure if it isn't me getting trolled here after all or what.
When you use an object, you refer to the rules governing it, right? Well, when you use an Arcane Focus, you need to refer to the rules text governing that object. <--- This seems to be what y'all refuse to do.
You want an analogy? I guess I can try my hand at the analogy game. You guys as insisting that melee attacks cannot be made further than 5 ft away, because making an attack doesn't reference being able to do that. But I'm like, guys, we're holding a Halberd, and that object has its own specific rules to consider too! Specifically, Reach. So you need to reference the rules the object you're using actually references.
Which, in our case, is the Arcane Focus rules text that I've quoted here like way too many times already. But I'll do it again:
When we use this object, we follow its rules text!
And it tells us to see the Spellcrafting rules for how that works. So... that's what we need to do.
And Bam. Right then and there, we are now all up in the Material Component rules. Click the blue link. Where do you go?
If you use an Arcane Focus to channel an arcane spell, you invoke the Material Component section rules. All of this follows from just reading the text of the object itself.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
🤦♂️ Incorrect. The M components are detailed per spell. If the spell does not already require M components, you cannot invoke those rules simply by using an Arcane Focus.
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That doesn't make any sense. You MUST use the applicable text of an object when you are using that object. Like I've said, the only way to reach your conclusion it to willfully IGNORE the item description itself.
Every time you use an Arcane Focus, you MUST follow the rules text for that object:
So, when you channel a spell through your Arcane Focus...
You're now using the Material Components section of the rules. Because the object itself said so.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
And when you follow that link you get this:
The only way to get to your conclusion is by ignoring the entire first paragraph of the thing you keep referring to. And that is the only RAW use of an Arcane Focus.
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And again ... from the Player's Handbook, in Chapter 5, under "Other Adventuring Gear."
Maybe if I put them together and make them real big.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Again Ravnodaus, you are conflating the description of a thing with the rules that tell you when they are applicable. The description of a shield doesn’t tell you who can wear one.
I'm still not sure why you're talking about holy symbols here. We're talking about an arcane focus, well, I am anyway. I know that there are similarities between them but they're not the same object.
Moreover, in the example in that sage advice, the scenario painted the caster isn't even holding a Holy Symbol at all. He is holding a shield. I'm sure we can both agree a shield isn't an arcane focus. Nor is it a spellcasting focus.
Normally you would NOT be able to cast a spell and use a shield hand to do the S components, and that linked text seems to clarify that they intended a shield with a holy symbol on it to still at least provide that flexibility in those cases. Because normally you couldn't use a shield hand like that in any way shape or form. And, any normal reading of the Holy symbol, material components, or spellcasting focus texts wouldn't lead anyone to the conclusion that a shield hand could also be used in this way under this situation. So they added it to their sage advise to clarify that it should be allowed in that situation.
But none of that has zilch to do with an arcane focus. You can't put an arcane focus on a shield. It is totally irrelevant to this topic.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.