The spellcasting rules do not give you free access to cast any spell on your class list using spell slots. Instead, a sorcerer can cast one of her sorcerer spells using spell slots ("The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these sorcerer spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher."). Note that the spellcasting feature does not say "to cast a spell from the sorcerer spell list..." in it. A sorcerer must use charisma to cast her sorcerer spells. All of this is laid out in the spellcasting feature for sorcerers.
Beyond that, if you are multiclassed, then the generalized rule that I quoted earlier applies: Each spell that you know or prepare is associated with a class and you must use the spellcasting ability of the class associated with a spell to cast that known/prepared spell.
Spell scrolls do not use slots and so the rules for casting a spell with a slot does not apply. They have their own rules that you directed us to, but their rules don't help us make sense of what is written in the spellcasting feature for spellcasting classes.
Rituals are cast without a slot, but require that the spell be in your spellbook (wizard) or prepared/known (all other ritual casters).
Edit: I think that is where you are making your mistake. Being a sorcerer doesn't mean that you can cast sorcerer spells with slots, it means that you can cast YOUR sorcerer spells. The same goes with each class that uses the spellcasting feature.
There may not be such a thing as a Fireball (wizard), but there is such a thing that "fireball is a wizard spell for me, but a cleric spell for the light cleric and a sorcerer spell for the sorcerer/paladin." The effect of all this is that if burning hands is a wizard spell for me, then I use int to cast it, no matter what other spell lists I have access to prepare or know spells from.
If you actually think the rules concerning how to use a spell scroll are in any way applicable to how spell casting functions for a character's personal abilities, you are hopelessly lost on this topic, and there is no logic we can demonstrate that will make you see that. Wolf gets it. 👍
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It isn't that the spell scroll rules control class-based spell casting... it is that they use identical vocabulary, and if you applied your definition of "wizard spell" to Spell Scrolls then the rules for Spell Scrolls would be ridiculous/unintelligible, while my preferred definition is entirely consistent with every single written rule we've found. Unless you can point to a reason to believe that the rules are written in such a way that "wizard spell" has one meaning in the entry for Spell Scroll, but means something entirely different in the entry for a Wizard's spellcasting feature, then the only logical reading is that they are referring to the same concept. I mean, if you want to go down that rabbit hole of reading every single rule and sentence in isolation, and refusing to acknowledge that a "longsword" is always a "longsword" etc... I just don't get where the temptation is to choose to think that "wizard spell" doesn't always mean the same thing every time you come across that phrase?
I don't know what more can be said that hasn't already been said. The rules say one thing (you can cast your known/prepared X spells with spell slots, X spells are the spells found on the X spell list), but you all have made up your mind that that's unacceptable and are insisting on another (you can cast known/prepared X spells with spell slots, X spells are a subset of the spells on the X spell list that you have learned as a result of being X class). Nobody has found any new language to quote, so I think the lines stand as they've been drawn for the reader to make up their own mind.
I don't know what else I can say other than the list of "your X spells" is not the entire list of "X spells," it is the list of X spells that you keep in your mind by preparing or knowing them using the rules laid out in the spellcasting feature for class X. This is explicitly stated in the spellcasting class feature for each spellcasting class.
Clearly you are here to argue and not to learn or think about your opinion, so that is my last post on the topic.
If a spell is on the Wizard Spell List, it is a Wizard Spell. PHB Chapter 11 says its so, the Spell Scroll rules say its so, Jeremy Crawford says its so, the plain meaning of the words "Wizard Spell" and "Wizard Spell List" say its so, and no written rule or ruling can be found anywhere saying it isn't so. Any further arguments to the contrary based on anything other than actual citation to written rules is irrelevant in the face of this overwhelming evidence.
On the contrary. You haven't cited anything relevant from the rulebooks and as soon as you look outside the rulebooks the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.
The only thing PH chapter 11 adds to this conversation is "The chapter begins with the spell lists of the spellcasting classes" which says absolutely nothing about how those spell lists are used. Like I said, the only rules that matter when discussing spell slots are the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature for your class. Spell scrolls aren't just irrelevant, they're off topic.
You cited one tweet from Jeremy which inadvertently proves you wrong because he explicitly says spells gained from racial traits don't count as class spells for you, and you're claiming simply having the spell on your class's spell list is sufficient. Here's another tweet where he agrees with exactly what I said earlier: you have to learn or prepare a spell according to your class's Spellcasting rules to cast that spell with spell slots. And here's four tweets where he explicitly says your spells are only associated only with the class that gave you access to it when you multiclass, as Sigred pointed out: 1, 2, 3, 4. Nothing new there; the multiclassing rules tell you as much.
Even if your tweet support your position it still doesn't matter because Sage Advice Compendium is more authoritative. The Sage Advice answer on Magic Initiate clearly says you need to pick the same class you have levels in to cast a Magic Initiate spell using spell slots. The bit about the wizard still needing to put the spell in the spellbook and then prepare it proves the bit about needing to follow your class's Spellcasting rules to a tee.
A spell being on the wizard list does not mean it unconditionally counts as a wizard spell for your character. This is RAW and RAI. RAF, that's a perfectly valid way to handle Magic Initiate.
I'm done reading arguments, I'm just going to leave my conclusion and bounce.
The rules only do what they say, they do not allow you to do something just because they don't forbid it. The spellcasting feature of each class specifies spells you have learned/prepared from your class spell list as [class] spells. Spells on your class spell list that have not been learned (or are not in the process of being learned) are never refered to in this manner. The spellcasting feature only allows you to spend spell slots on its own [class] spells (and never once mentions being able to cast spells on the class spell list that you learn from other sources). Leveled [class] spells and [class] cantrips are cast using a specific spellcasting ability (non-[class] spells are not mentioned to be able to be cast using this ability).
Magic initiate does not specifically call the spells it grants [class] spells (although it uses the same wording as the spellcasting feature for selecting [class] spells), so RAW does not allow you to spend slots to cast it regardless of spellcasting class.
Official SAC rules that it is intended for the spells granted by magic initiate to be known [class] spells of the chosen class and can be cast using spell slots if you have a feature that lets you cast spells with those criteria. This ruling is true for any game where SAC is used.
THANK YOU Coder, at last some quotes instead of mere opinion!
I think saying that I haven't cited anything relevant, when I've cited every single reference to "[Class] Spells" within the core book, is inaccurate and unncessary. To argue that Spell Scrolls are off topic is so ridiculous a claim that I can only conclude you guys are trying to hide persuasive citations that cut against your point. But, your tweets certainly do bring something new to the table, so thank you nonetheless.
Some of those tweets do support your position,points in your favor. But others support my own, or are neutral between the two, and the fact that you guys are throwing them in my face is just demonstrative of the problem here: there's a tendency to find a tweet on a subject and then assume it is agreeing with you while not actually bothering to pick apart what is being asked and what is being answered. Your misunderstanding of the November 28 2017 tweet is the perfect example of this. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT "SPELLS GAINED FROM RACIAL TRAITS DON"T COUNT AS CLASS SPELLS FOR YOU. It is driving me insane that you all keep saying that. It doesn't say that. At all. AT ALL at all. Staaaahhhhppppp quoting it for that premise.
1) The tweet that I quoted, November 28, 2017, Crawford says that spells gained from racial traits are not added to the Class Spell Lists that appear in Chapter 11, unless they specifically say they are. He did not say that racial feats don't count as class spells. Only a very imprecise reading would lead anyone to imagine that he's coming anywhere near saying "racial spells cant be class spells". THE TWEET IS DIRECTLY ON POINT, "A class's spells are on that class's spell list." Point for me.
2) December 4, 2017 (Crawford), the first new tweet you quote: "Armando" says three things in three tweets, and Crawford responds once to say "absolutely correct."
a) To cast a spell with a class' Spellcasting feature (and use spell slots), you have to follow that class' Spellcasting rules. E.G., a wizard must "prepare" spells before they can cast them. Sure, no problem,I agree 100% and this doesn't cut either way.
b) "Wood elf magic don't say you learn the spellor that it counts as a < insert class here > spell for you" Umm okay the first half of that's explicitly wrong, Wood Elf Magic says "you learn the longstrider and pass without trace spells..." If this is what Crawford is agreeing to, then he should be fired and have his twitter account taken away. If he's agreeing to the second half of this sentence, maybe a point in your favor, or its also possible that he wasn't even responding to this tweet when he wrote "100% correct."
c) The "in this way part" ("You regain the ability to cast these two spells in this way when you finish a long rest.") is what allows you to cast the spells ever again with the feat after casting them once. Has nothing to do with our discussion or the "class spell" debate.
Only the second of these three points is relevant to our discussion, and the second one is so facially flawed that I cannot imagine Crawford getting away with saying "100% correct", so I'm not sure we can do much with this tweet other than use it as a reference against other clearer rulings.
3) January 13, 2015: a string of rulings, a lot of which are relevant!
a) "what defines a spell as being a Wizard Spell? Is it presence on the WIzard Spell List?" Answer: YES
b) "if it's on more than one list, does it count for both (e.g. Scorching Ray Wizard/Sorceror)?" Answer: YES
c) if a spell is on the class lists of both of your multiclasses, do features from both class apply to that spell? Answer: YES
d) Wait so one casting can be two classes simultaneously? Answer: No, not simultaneously. When cast, it is one or the other for that casting. I've got no problem with that, whenever you cast a spell with a spell slot, you are using one specific Spellcasting feature you've learned from one specific class. That's got nothing to do with the question of whether the following round, you could use a different Spellcasting feature you've learned from a different class to cast the same spell with another spell slot, as long as the spell appears on both class lists.
4) October 20, 2016: "If I'm a Sorceror/Cleric [and cast a spell], is my DC based on Charisma or Wisdom?" Answer: A spell you cast is associated with one or the other [at the time you cast it]. How is this supposed to be contradicting me again????
5) December 21, 2016: Setup is a Cleric (Arcane domain) 8/Wizard (Evocation school) 10, who has learned Fire bolt as a Cleric cantrip using the Cleric's Arcane Initiate feature. Cleric 8 lets them add WIS modifier to cleric cantrips ("potent spellcasting") Wizard 10 lets them add INT modifier to wizard evocation spells ("empowered evocation"). "Is potent spellcasting mutually exclusive with empowered evocation when casting Firebolt?" Answer: when a spell is associated with more than one class, a multiclass spellcaster chooses one of them and associates the spell with it.
Here it is, this is the first tweet I've seen that actually head on says what you guys are claiming the rule is. The question he's being posed is "can features that rely on "a cleric spell" and features that rely on "a wizard spell" apply to one casting simultaneously"? He's already answered that in the negative on October 20 (which didn't in any way contradict my premise that you can choose to cast it as an X spell or a Y spell if you have both X and Y spellcasting features and a spell appears on X and Y spell lists)... but the way he's phrased it this time might go further. "A spell is associated with no more than one class..." ....when you learn it? When you cast it? His answer is ambiguous on that, and all he's really being asked about is the "when you cast it" context. If given the narrow "when casting?" reading, neutral. If given a broader "when learned?" reading, point to you.
6) July 6, 2015: Does Wild Magic Surge (roll for surge when you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher) trigger for a Wizard/Sorcerer when they use the Wizard Spellcasting feature to cast a spell that also appears on the Sorcerer spell list? Answer: he quotes the multiclass spell rule, that "Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes." Again he's being asked a narrow question (can a spell simultaneously be a Wizard Spell and a Sorcerer Spell when cast?), so you could give this a narrow reading. But the multiclass spellcasting rule doesn't say "Each spell you cast is associated..." it says "Each spell you know...", so yeah,, point to you.
So to recap:
The Multiclass spellcasting rules are very friendly to your position, that spells are associated with one or another class when "known" (i.e. learned). Crawford's July 6, 2015 tweet, December 21, 2016 tweet, and October 20, 2016 tweet all reference that section to answer a narrower question (can a spell be both a Wizard and a Sorcerer spell simultaneously during a single casting?). On January 13, 2015 he gave this same answer about "only one class at a time during a single casting," but also very unambiguously said that a spell can be both a Wizard Spell and a Sorcerer spell while known, by virtue of the fact that it appears on both class lists. That would contradict directly with the multiclass spellcasting rules passage, if it really applies when "known" instead of when "cast." And on November 28, 2017, he also weighed in in favor of a "wizard spell" being defined as a "spell on the wizard spell list", which would again contradict with the broad reading of the multiclass spellcasting excerpt.
Personally, I think that RAW, the PHB Chapter 11 rules are in conflict with the PHB Chapter 6 multiclass spellcasting rules. I think the fact that the Chapter 6 rules can be shown to be in need of a rewrite with the simple PHB-only example of a Forest Gnome Paladin 2/Ranger 2's Minor Illusion is a pretty strong argument in favor of concluding that they need errata and probably don't say what they hold themselves out as saying... but hey, reasonable minds could differ on what the errata would come out saying after such a rewrite, they could end up saying exactly what you all think they say.
RAW-ish 1 (embracing Chapter 11, errata-ing Chapter 6 to "Each spell you cast is associated with one race, class, or ability when cast") is my take, and is supported by some Crawford tweets and persuasive sources (November 28, 2017; January 13, 2015; Spell Scroll rules).
RAW-ish 2(embracing Chapter 6 errata-d to read "Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one race, class, or ability"; ignoring the Chapter 11 headings as not providing rules but only ease-of-reference) is your take, and is supported by some Crawford tweets and persuasive sources (December 21, 2016; December 4, 2017 (maybe); the "If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat?" Sage Advice Compendium entry).
("The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these sorcerer spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher.")
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
I'm not sure I fully understand this, and I’m definitely going to be inadvertently repeating some stuff. I’m not sure whose side I’m on. As far as I can tell, "learning" spells from the Magic Initiate feat only applies to Bard, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard, all of which have a "spells known" column of their class table or a similar mechanic. By this, I mean that you should be able to cast spells from Magic Initiate with normal spell slots as if they were normal known spells.
I don't think it applies to Clerics or Druids, who prepare from their entire list and don't have a known list. It doesn’t make sense for this feat to automatically prepare spells, because it never mentions it, only saying you learn it.
Since the feat states "your spellcasting ability for these spells..." I don't think cross-class casting is within the rules (e.g. Wizard takes Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) and picks Burning Hands, since they can't cast it with Intelligence and therefore not with a Wizard slot). Assigning a spellcasting ability implies that the class is very well connected to the spells. In terms of ritual casting, you can only cast ritual spells from classes that “know” their spells and that have ritual features: Bard and Wizard. This is because “you can cast any [class] spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag”.
For those who have an issue with the balance of this ruling, classes like Druid who prepare their spells from the whole list already have an advantage over Wizards and such: flexibility. If a spell proves exceedingly useful against a specific enemy the party is repeatedly fighting, a Druid can have it in a day, and a Wizard can only gain it upon leveling up. It makes sense that a spellcasting feat works differently for different classes whose spellcasting itself works differently.
I'm not sure I fully understand this, and I’m definitely going to be inadvertently repeating some stuff. I’m not sure whose side I’m on. As far as I can tell, "learning" spells from the Magic Initiate feat only applies to Bard, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard, all of which have a "spells known" column of their class table or a similar mechanic. By this, I mean that you should be able to cast spells from Magic Initiate with normal spell slots as if they were normal known spells.
I don't think it applies to Clerics or Druids, who prepare from their entire list and don't have a known list. It doesn’t make sense for this feat to automatically prepare spells, because it never mentions it, only saying you learn it.
It sounds like you are on the SAC side of the argument.
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The spellcasting rules do not give you free access to cast any spell on your class list using spell slots. Instead, a sorcerer can cast one of her sorcerer spells using spell slots ("The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these sorcerer spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher."). Note that the spellcasting feature does not say "to cast a spell from the sorcerer spell list..." in it. A sorcerer must use charisma to cast her sorcerer spells. All of this is laid out in the spellcasting feature for sorcerers.
Beyond that, if you are multiclassed, then the generalized rule that I quoted earlier applies: Each spell that you know or prepare is associated with a class and you must use the spellcasting ability of the class associated with a spell to cast that known/prepared spell.
Spell scrolls do not use slots and so the rules for casting a spell with a slot does not apply. They have their own rules that you directed us to, but their rules don't help us make sense of what is written in the spellcasting feature for spellcasting classes.
Rituals are cast without a slot, but require that the spell be in your spellbook (wizard) or prepared/known (all other ritual casters).
Edit: I think that is where you are making your mistake. Being a sorcerer doesn't mean that you can cast sorcerer spells with slots, it means that you can cast YOUR sorcerer spells. The same goes with each class that uses the spellcasting feature.
There may not be such a thing as a Fireball (wizard), but there is such a thing that "fireball is a wizard spell for me, but a cleric spell for the light cleric and a sorcerer spell for the sorcerer/paladin." The effect of all this is that if burning hands is a wizard spell for me, then I use int to cast it, no matter what other spell lists I have access to prepare or know spells from.
If you actually think the rules concerning how to use a spell scroll are in any way applicable to how spell casting functions for a character's personal abilities, you are hopelessly lost on this topic, and there is no logic we can demonstrate that will make you see that. Wolf gets it. 👍
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It isn't that the spell scroll rules control class-based spell casting... it is that they use identical vocabulary, and if you applied your definition of "wizard spell" to Spell Scrolls then the rules for Spell Scrolls would be ridiculous/unintelligible, while my preferred definition is entirely consistent with every single written rule we've found. Unless you can point to a reason to believe that the rules are written in such a way that "wizard spell" has one meaning in the entry for Spell Scroll, but means something entirely different in the entry for a Wizard's spellcasting feature, then the only logical reading is that they are referring to the same concept. I mean, if you want to go down that rabbit hole of reading every single rule and sentence in isolation, and refusing to acknowledge that a "longsword" is always a "longsword" etc... I just don't get where the temptation is to choose to think that "wizard spell" doesn't always mean the same thing every time you come across that phrase?
I don't know what more can be said that hasn't already been said. The rules say one thing (you can cast your known/prepared X spells with spell slots, X spells are the spells found on the X spell list), but you all have made up your mind that that's unacceptable and are insisting on another (you can cast known/prepared X spells with spell slots, X spells are a subset of the spells on the X spell list that you have learned as a result of being X class). Nobody has found any new language to quote, so I think the lines stand as they've been drawn for the reader to make up their own mind.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I don't know what else I can say other than the list of "your X spells" is not the entire list of "X spells," it is the list of X spells that you keep in your mind by preparing or knowing them using the rules laid out in the spellcasting feature for class X. This is explicitly stated in the spellcasting class feature for each spellcasting class.
Clearly you are here to argue and not to learn or think about your opinion, so that is my last post on the topic.
On the contrary. You haven't cited anything relevant from the rulebooks and as soon as you look outside the rulebooks the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.
The only thing PH chapter 11 adds to this conversation is "The chapter begins with the spell lists of the spellcasting classes" which says absolutely nothing about how those spell lists are used. Like I said, the only rules that matter when discussing spell slots are the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature for your class. Spell scrolls aren't just irrelevant, they're off topic.
You cited one tweet from Jeremy which inadvertently proves you wrong because he explicitly says spells gained from racial traits don't count as class spells for you, and you're claiming simply having the spell on your class's spell list is sufficient. Here's another tweet where he agrees with exactly what I said earlier: you have to learn or prepare a spell according to your class's Spellcasting rules to cast that spell with spell slots. And here's four tweets where he explicitly says your spells are only associated only with the class that gave you access to it when you multiclass, as Sigred pointed out: 1, 2, 3, 4. Nothing new there; the multiclassing rules tell you as much.
Even if your tweet support your position it still doesn't matter because Sage Advice Compendium is more authoritative. The Sage Advice answer on Magic Initiate clearly says you need to pick the same class you have levels in to cast a Magic Initiate spell using spell slots. The bit about the wizard still needing to put the spell in the spellbook and then prepare it proves the bit about needing to follow your class's Spellcasting rules to a tee.
A spell being on the wizard list does not mean it unconditionally counts as a wizard spell for your character. This is RAW and RAI. RAF, that's a perfectly valid way to handle Magic Initiate.
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I'm done reading arguments, I'm just going to leave my conclusion and bounce.
The rules only do what they say, they do not allow you to do something just because they don't forbid it. The spellcasting feature of each class specifies spells you have learned/prepared from your class spell list as [class] spells. Spells on your class spell list that have not been learned (or are not in the process of being learned) are never refered to in this manner. The spellcasting feature only allows you to spend spell slots on its own [class] spells (and never once mentions being able to cast spells on the class spell list that you learn from other sources). Leveled [class] spells and [class] cantrips are cast using a specific spellcasting ability (non-[class] spells are not mentioned to be able to be cast using this ability).
Magic initiate does not specifically call the spells it grants [class] spells (although it uses the same wording as the spellcasting feature for selecting [class] spells), so RAW does not allow you to spend slots to cast it regardless of spellcasting class.
Official SAC rules that it is intended for the spells granted by magic initiate to be known [class] spells of the chosen class and can be cast using spell slots if you have a feature that lets you cast spells with those criteria. This ruling is true for any game where SAC is used.
THANK YOU Coder, at last some quotes instead of mere opinion!
I think saying that I haven't cited anything relevant, when I've cited every single reference to "[Class] Spells" within the core book, is inaccurate and unncessary. To argue that Spell Scrolls are off topic is so ridiculous a claim that I can only conclude you guys are trying to hide persuasive citations that cut against your point. But, your tweets certainly do bring something new to the table, so thank you nonetheless.
Some of those tweets do support your position, points in your favor. But others support my own, or are neutral between the two, and the fact that you guys are throwing them in my face is just demonstrative of the problem here: there's a tendency to find a tweet on a subject and then assume it is agreeing with you while not actually bothering to pick apart what is being asked and what is being answered. Your misunderstanding of the November 28 2017 tweet is the perfect example of this. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT "SPELLS GAINED FROM RACIAL TRAITS DON"T COUNT AS CLASS SPELLS FOR YOU. It is driving me insane that you all keep saying that. It doesn't say that. At all. AT ALL at all. Staaaahhhhppppp quoting it for that premise.
1) The tweet that I quoted, November 28, 2017, Crawford says that spells gained from racial traits are not added to the Class Spell Lists that appear in Chapter 11, unless they specifically say they are. He did not say that racial feats don't count as class spells. Only a very imprecise reading would lead anyone to imagine that he's coming anywhere near saying "racial spells cant be class spells". THE TWEET IS DIRECTLY ON POINT, "A class's spells are on that class's spell list." Point for me.
2) December 4, 2017 (Crawford), the first new tweet you quote: "Armando" says three things in three tweets, and Crawford responds once to say "absolutely correct."
a) To cast a spell with a class' Spellcasting feature (and use spell slots), you have to follow that class' Spellcasting rules. E.G., a wizard must "prepare" spells before they can cast them. Sure, no problem, I agree 100% and this doesn't cut either way.
b) "Wood elf magic don't say you learn the spell or that it counts as a < insert class here > spell for you" Umm okay the first half of that's explicitly wrong, Wood Elf Magic says "you learn the longstrider and pass without trace spells..." If this is what Crawford is agreeing to, then he should be fired and have his twitter account taken away. If he's agreeing to the second half of this sentence, maybe a point in your favor, or its also possible that he wasn't even responding to this tweet when he wrote "100% correct."
c) The "in this way part" ("You regain the ability to cast these two spells in this way when you finish a long rest.") is what allows you to cast the spells ever again with the feat after casting them once. Has nothing to do with our discussion or the "class spell" debate.
Only the second of these three points is relevant to our discussion, and the second one is so facially flawed that I cannot imagine Crawford getting away with saying "100% correct", so I'm not sure we can do much with this tweet other than use it as a reference against other clearer rulings.
3) January 13, 2015: a string of rulings, a lot of which are relevant!
a) "what defines a spell as being a Wizard Spell? Is it presence on the WIzard Spell List?" Answer: YES
b) "if it's on more than one list, does it count for both (e.g. Scorching Ray Wizard/Sorceror)?" Answer: YES
c) if a spell is on the class lists of both of your multiclasses, do features from both class apply to that spell? Answer: YES
d) Wait so one casting can be two classes simultaneously? Answer: No, not simultaneously. When cast, it is one or the other for that casting. I've got no problem with that, whenever you cast a spell with a spell slot, you are using one specific Spellcasting feature you've learned from one specific class. That's got nothing to do with the question of whether the following round, you could use a different Spellcasting feature you've learned from a different class to cast the same spell with another spell slot, as long as the spell appears on both class lists.
4) October 20, 2016: "If I'm a Sorceror/Cleric [and cast a spell], is my DC based on Charisma or Wisdom?" Answer: A spell you cast is associated with one or the other [at the time you cast it]. How is this supposed to be contradicting me again????
5) December 21, 2016: Setup is a Cleric (Arcane domain) 8/Wizard (Evocation school) 10, who has learned Fire bolt as a Cleric cantrip using the Cleric's Arcane Initiate feature. Cleric 8 lets them add WIS modifier to cleric cantrips ("potent spellcasting") Wizard 10 lets them add INT modifier to wizard evocation spells ("empowered evocation"). "Is potent spellcasting mutually exclusive with empowered evocation when casting Firebolt?" Answer: when a spell is associated with more than one class, a multiclass spellcaster chooses one of them and associates the spell with it.
Here it is, this is the first tweet I've seen that actually head on says what you guys are claiming the rule is. The question he's being posed is "can features that rely on "a cleric spell" and features that rely on "a wizard spell" apply to one casting simultaneously"? He's already answered that in the negative on October 20 (which didn't in any way contradict my premise that you can choose to cast it as an X spell or a Y spell if you have both X and Y spellcasting features and a spell appears on X and Y spell lists)... but the way he's phrased it this time might go further. "A spell is associated with no more than one class..." ....when you learn it? When you cast it? His answer is ambiguous on that, and all he's really being asked about is the "when you cast it" context. If given the narrow "when casting?" reading, neutral. If given a broader "when learned?" reading, point to you.
6) July 6, 2015: Does Wild Magic Surge (roll for surge when you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher) trigger for a Wizard/Sorcerer when they use the Wizard Spellcasting feature to cast a spell that also appears on the Sorcerer spell list? Answer: he quotes the multiclass spell rule, that "Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes." Again he's being asked a narrow question (can a spell simultaneously be a Wizard Spell and a Sorcerer Spell when cast?), so you could give this a narrow reading. But the multiclass spellcasting rule doesn't say "Each spell you cast is associated..." it says "Each spell you know...", so yeah,, point to you.
So to recap:
The Multiclass spellcasting rules are very friendly to your position, that spells are associated with one or another class when "known" (i.e. learned). Crawford's July 6, 2015 tweet, December 21, 2016 tweet, and October 20, 2016 tweet all reference that section to answer a narrower question (can a spell be both a Wizard and a Sorcerer spell simultaneously during a single casting?). On January 13, 2015 he gave this same answer about "only one class at a time during a single casting," but also very unambiguously said that a spell can be both a Wizard Spell and a Sorcerer spell while known, by virtue of the fact that it appears on both class lists. That would contradict directly with the multiclass spellcasting rules passage, if it really applies when "known" instead of when "cast." And on November 28, 2017, he also weighed in in favor of a "wizard spell" being defined as a "spell on the wizard spell list", which would again contradict with the broad reading of the multiclass spellcasting excerpt.
Personally, I think that RAW, the PHB Chapter 11 rules are in conflict with the PHB Chapter 6 multiclass spellcasting rules. I think the fact that the Chapter 6 rules can be shown to be in need of a rewrite with the simple PHB-only example of a Forest Gnome Paladin 2/Ranger 2's Minor Illusion is a pretty strong argument in favor of concluding that they need errata and probably don't say what they hold themselves out as saying... but hey, reasonable minds could differ on what the errata would come out saying after such a rewrite, they could end up saying exactly what you all think they say.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
At this point I wonder if you are trolling.
Relevant rules text.
Relevant rules text.
Relevant rules text.
Relevant rules text.
I'm not sure I fully understand this, and I’m definitely going to be inadvertently repeating some stuff. I’m not sure whose side I’m on. As far as I can tell, "learning" spells from the Magic Initiate feat only applies to Bard, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard, all of which have a "spells known" column of their class table or a similar mechanic. By this, I mean that you should be able to cast spells from Magic Initiate with normal spell slots as if they were normal known spells.
I don't think it applies to Clerics or Druids, who prepare from their entire list and don't have a known list. It doesn’t make sense for this feat to automatically prepare spells, because it never mentions it, only saying you learn it.
Since the feat states "your spellcasting ability for these spells..." I don't think cross-class casting is within the rules (e.g. Wizard takes Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) and picks Burning Hands, since they can't cast it with Intelligence and therefore not with a Wizard slot). Assigning a spellcasting ability implies that the class is very well connected to the spells. In terms of ritual casting, you can only cast ritual spells from classes that “know” their spells and that have ritual features: Bard and Wizard. This is because “you can cast any [class] spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag”.
For those who have an issue with the balance of this ruling, classes like Druid who prepare their spells from the whole list already have an advantage over Wizards and such: flexibility. If a spell proves exceedingly useful against a specific enemy the party is repeatedly fighting, a Druid can have it in a day, and a Wizard can only gain it upon leveling up. It makes sense that a spellcasting feat works differently for different classes whose spellcasting itself works differently.
"Now that you mention it..." - One of my DMs
It sounds like you are on the SAC side of the argument.