So, i'm not exactly sure how this should work, I looked it up, but results seem unclear.
Basically, in a situation where a player Readies an attack, before combat has started, (or between waves, rather)
Other characters are looting, manoeuvring or attempting to diplomance/intimidate remaining potential hostiles, I had my character ready a crossbow shot if the npcs attacked us. The Intimidation attempt failed and they charged, so the DM had us roll initiative.
I believed that I should have gotten an attack in beforethe roll of initiative, since I spent my action, the turn before , to line up my shot. I could have buffed or drank a potion, but I chose to stand there with my finger on the trigger ready to shoot, because I believed that I'd get an attack as soon as they fufilled the criteria in my 'Readied Action'
I can see how this could lead to players trying to stack up readied actions to get free attacks in, but... that seems sensible to me. This is why you point your weapon at the enemy in threatening situations, because it gives you a speed advantage over those who only react to aggression after they have been attacked.
Likewise, in another theoretical situation, a group of players is waiting on one side of the doorway with crossbows, waiting for a group of enemies to pass through and approach them.
Both groups know where the other group is, so there's no surprise-round, but they haven't actually engaged yet, so initiative hasn't been rolled. Do those who've chosen to hunker down and ready actions (rather than spending their turn buffing or drinking potions) get some advantage over those who did not?
Personally, with the 'enemies walking through the doorway' situation, I'd treat it as though the enemies got hit by a trap right before combat started. Except in this case the 'trap' takes the form of several humanoids with ranged weapons, instead of spring-loaded spikes or a landmine.
Have everyone pick their targets (first couple of guys through the doorway only) then roll for hit/damage one after the other, tally up the injuries, then roll for initiative and everyone gets their turns as normal.
Would this be broken/exploitable?
Oh, keep in mind that particularly canny enemies could use these tactics too, so you'd learn not to walk through doorways or blind-corners without checking, or the first guy into the room might eat a full round of damage before combat even starts.
If you're prepared for it, it'd be easy to avoid though. If they're set to fire as soon as they see a person pass through the doorway, you could waste that readied action by poking a helmet on a stick around the corner, or just tossing a corpse, or make yourself mostly immune to it by readying your own action to take cover or Dodge.
In a situation where people on both sides of the battle have Readied Actions to attack, I'd just have those people roll initiative for turn-order, then everyone who didn't ready an action gets to join combat on the next turn. (not unlike a random encounter in the wilds, while half the party is still sleeping.)
For that matter, what happens if a player says 'I shoot x character' while you're not in combat? Do they roll initiative against the character they're attacking? Is it a surprise round? What if the attack itself isn't really that surprising (two hostile groups interacting with weapons brandished, but this is the first attack)
If your attack is what kicks off combat, then everyone else is reacting to you, so you have to go first, don;'t you?
So, TLDR: what happens if you attack/prepare to attack someone before combat has officially kicked off. Do you get to go first-in-turn, get a free attack and then roll initiative with everyone else as normal, get advantage on initiative, or what?
Technically you should have gotten to use your readied action immediately after rolling for initiative, before anyone else could act. And then you’d be in initiative as normal.
Rules as written (RAW), you can't ready an action out of combat, and initiative is rolled as soon as combat starts. So if you're playing RAW you can't do that, no. My reason for saying that is that a Readied Action can only be "taken on your turn" and there is no such thing as a turn outside of combat scenarios.
Now I generally rule it differently at my table because I like my players to have fun, and I also then allow it to be used against them too. My only rule is that to hold the action they must be still and do nothing else - e.g. they can't hold and move into another room, or open a door, etc. It doesn't really mess up the encounters that I've run so far.
Morgoth has the right of it. My DM usually lets us abuse “readied” actions before combat, but there isn’t any rule support for it, “I shoot if they look hostile!” is already what an initiative roll is for. Now, “I shoot right now while they’re still talking”... THAT is something you could probably get away with, since you’re acting instead of reacting.
As long as you are not surprised, you can use your reaction before your first turn of combat. I would allow a Ready action before initiative that could be triggered by events after initiative is rolled.
As long as the player is being reasonably specific about what will trigger the reaction, I don’t see how it can be abused.
The DM can do the same thing with NPCs so the players may not want it that way and if the players don’t want it then I wouldn’t allow it.
The best reason for a DM to not allow NPCs the Ready action before initiative is that it requires some work to not become a metagaming and record keeping mess.
Technically you should have gotten to use your readied action immediately after rolling for initiative, before anyone else could act. And then you’d be in initiative as normal.
So if I 'won' inititive (as in, first in order) then I would have gotten two attacks back-to-back?
Rules as written (RAW), you can't ready an action out of combat, and initiative is rolled as soon as combat starts. So if you're playing RAW you can't do that, no. My reason for saying that is that a Readied Action can only be "taken on your turn" and there is no such thing as a turn outside of combat scenarios.
Searching and using social skills like persuade or intimidate are mentioned to take a turn, even though you very rarely attempt to do them in combat. I assume that there's a very loose 'turn' system going on out of combat, just to ensure that players can't take three different actions at the same time.
There's also the matter of your movement speed (which is listed per-turn) dictating how far you can travel in a day, or whether you can outrun something.
I guess that could be an athletics check, but depending on the DM they might just look at your char-sheet and say 'Well, you can run 30ft in six seconds, and this wolf can run 40, so it's gonna catch you.'
As for doing nothing else... that's fair. RAW, it only takes your action, so you should still have access to your move and maybe your bonus action (so a rogue could move, use cunning action to hide, and still ready) but not being able to move after readying your action sounds like a fair way to balance something that could be pretty exploitable.
The best reason for a DM to not allow NPCs the Ready action before initiative is that it requires some work to not become a metagaming and record keeping mess.
True that.
Unrelated, but I have some worries about using Booming Blade for similar reasons. Not that I don't trust the DM, but if someone literally tells you 'if this guy moves on his next turn, he takes 1d8 thunder damage' then you're gonna have him not do that, probably without thinking about whether that's in-character decision.
As long as you are not surprised, you can use your reaction before your first turn of combat. I would allow a Ready action before initiative that could be triggered by events after initiative is rolled.
As long as the player is being reasonably specific about what will trigger the reaction, I don’t see how it can be abused.
The DM can do the same thing with NPCs so the players may not want it that way and if the players don’t want it then I wouldn’t allow it.
The best reason for a DM to not allow NPCs the Ready action before initiative is that it requires some work to not become a metagaming and record keeping mess.
So the problem is that the Ready action is listed under "Actions in Combat", and it specifically says it "must be taken on your turn". Meaning it can only be used in combat, and not before, so you can't take the Ready action before initiative.
Rules as written (RAW), you can't ready an action out of combat, and initiative is rolled as soon as combat starts. So if you're playing RAW you can't do that, no. My reason for saying that is that a Readied Action can only be "taken on your turn" and there is no such thing as a turn outside of combat scenarios.
Searching and using social skills like persuade or intimidate are mentioned to take a turn, even though you very rarely attempt to do them in combat. I assume that there's a very loose 'turn' system going on out of combat, just to ensure that players can't take three different actions at the same time.
Can you quote where those say they take a turn? I'll be surprised if it's mentioned anywhere other than a combat scenario. Search is listed under "Actions in Combat" so agreed, it is an action that must be done under initiative on your turn, the same as Ready.
Pursuade and Intimidate are skill checks and will not require your turn unless you are currently in initiative because there is no such thing as a turn outside of combat.
Yeah, that entry is for trying to persuade or intimidate in combat; talking is free during your turn, but if you’re trying to actually influence NPCs with an opposed check mid-combat, it takes an action.
Your DM is playing by the book to not allow actions to be readied before combat; a lot of DMs don’t with that rule, but it definitely cuts down on alpha strike cheese to enforce that, so good on him.
There is literally nothing in the book that says you can't ready an action outside of combat. But there's nothing that says you can either, and there are (probably many) places where it says "if the action you describe isn't covered by any rule, your DM decides how to handle it."
There is no rule for readying outside of combat; that doesn't mean you can't do it, as some posters here are suggesting, but it does mean that the mechanics are up to DM discretion.
There's nothing cheesy about preparing an alpha strike. That's just good planning, and saying "you can't do it" just because there's no rule for it is arbitrary and contrived. I've absolutely done it to my players, and I would expect them to do it if they were in a defensible position and knew an attack was imminent.
There is literally nothing in the book that says you can't ready an action outside of combat. But there's nothing that says you can either, and there are (probably many) places where it says "if the action you describe isn't covered by any rule, your DM decides how to handle it."
There is no rule for readying outside of combat; that doesn't mean you can't do it, as some posters here are suggesting, but it does mean that the mechanics are up to DM discretion.
I agree this is always up to DM discretion, they can rule however they want and as I said previously I allow my players to ready attacks if they want to. The rules for this scenario are very light but also pretty clear in my opinion, and I think the difference is whether we are saying the PCs are doing the "Ready Action" (only listed as combat action) or they are just preparing to attack when an enemy comes into view.
1. You can tell the DM you are going to attack the first enemy you see, therefore "readying your attack" but this is not truly the "Ready Action" because that can only be done in combat. 2. Once the "readied action" is triggered combat is initiated and the DM should follow the normal rules for starting combat - determining surprise and initiative order - because the NPC might react faster than the PCs unless the PCs were stealthed.
Specifically talking about readying an Attack action, you are deciding that when an enemy comes into view you are going to attack them. Attack actions are made in combat only (it is specifically listed as "Actions in Combat"), so in this case you are going to enter combat and normal combat rules apply.
That is:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are — how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
So the DM could determine that the enemies are surprised automatically without having the PCs roll a stealth check vs monster's passive perception, and award a surprise round. That is the DM's choice. However that is not RAW.
Determining Surprise The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
As always, fun is more important than rules and I normally rule the players can just automatically attack if they held their attack. But this is a forum specifically about determining the rules, and nothing supports holding your attack action outside of initiative order but there are rules which go against it.
I probably wouldn't allow it. The "ready" action specifically lets a player effectively pass their turn to take the action later. I don't think it's right to use that to, effectively, get a free action at the start of combat.
After all, then the enemies can do it too! They'd also just "ready" an action for when combat starts. If the PC gets to say "I attack when I see the enemy!" then the enemy also gets to say "I attack when I see the PC!" and then it's a big mess. Or it could mean that the PCs effectively always get a free action at the start of every combat in a dungeon crawl, if they're the ones starting the fights.
IMO, the initiative and surprise rules are already there to determine who gets to take their actions when, in-combat. If both sides are aware of each other, everyone rolls initiative - and that determines who gets to act when. If someone is being stealthy, the stealth/surprise rules can make some enemies effectively miss their first turn.
I probably wouldn't allow it. The "ready" action specifically lets a player effectively pass their turn to take the action later. I don't think it's right to use that to, effectively, get a free action at the start of combat.
After all, then the enemies can do it too! They'd also just "ready" an action for when combat starts. If the PC gets to say "I attack when I see the enemy!" then the enemy also gets to say "I attack when I see the PC!" and then it's a big mess. Or it could mean that the PCs effectively always get a free action at the start of every combat in a dungeon crawl, if they're the ones starting the fights.
IMO, the initiative and surprise rules are already there to determine who gets to take their actions when, in-combat. If both sides are aware of each other, everyone rolls initiative - and that determines who gets to act when. If someone is being stealthy, the stealth/surprise rules can make some enemies effectively miss their first turn.
That sort of slippery slope argument is honestly nonsense. There's a world of difference between a player saying "well, we see the goblins and they see us, but the DM hasn't called for initiative yet, so I'm gonna 'ready an action' to get an attack before combat starts" and a player saying "we can hear the goblins outside our room, we know something's going to come smashing through that door, so I'm gonna put a crossbow bolt through its chest as soon as it does." It's the DM's job to recognize that they're different situations and adjudicate them differently.
The difference is between a player saying "how do I manipulate the rules to create an unrealistic scenario to my mechanical benefit?" and a DM saying "what rule best models the completely reasonable and realistic thing my player is doing?"
The OP's situation is clearly more like the latter example. "I am suspicious of these NPCs, so I have my crossbow trained on them, and if any attack I'm going to shoot." One "free" crossbow attack is not going to break an encounter, and denying the reaction flies in the face of what any reasonable person would expect from a story that's trying to imitate reality. It's contrived to the point of being sincerely immersion-breaking.
Saga, I think the scenario you outlined is exactly what the surprise condition is designed for but honestly I feel it's implementation is not ideal.
The party hears goblins approaching and they want to attack? It should be stealth rolls to see if they are discovered or manage to surprise the goblins.
If the PCs are in a situation where readying an attack is appropriate, rolling for initiative is appropriate.
I disagree pretty strongly. To continue with the goblin dungeon example, it's both boring gameplay and bad storytelling to go through five rounds of the party doing exactly nothing while they wait for the goblins to get to the door. The action starts when the door is broken down, and that's when initiative is appropriate. And telling a player that they get exactly nothing for being prepared for just that occasion is unimaginative DMing that's going to frustrate the player enough to make a forum post about it.
Saga, I think the scenario you outlined is exactly what the surprise condition is designed for but honestly I feel it's implementation is not ideal.
The party hears goblins approaching and they want to attack? It should be stealth rolls to see if they are discovered or manage to surprise the goblins.
It's exactly not what surprise is designed for. In this example both groups are completely aware of each other, but the precise circumstances are such that mechanically starting combat is inappropriate until something else happens. If a PC anticipates what that "something else" is, they deserve something for that.
Rules as written (RAW), you can't ready an action out of combat, and initiative is rolled as soon as combat starts. So if you're playing RAW you can't do that, no. My reason for saying that is that a Readied Action can only be "taken on your turn" and there is no such thing as a turn outside of combat scenarios.
Just wanted to address this one point: turns do exist out of combat if it ever becomes necessary to track time at such a fine level. However as Lunali astutely points out it rarely makes sense to ready actions outside of combat since any offensive actions should prompt the DM to roll for initiative and if the action wouldn't start combat there's no need to worry about turn order.
Debating the “right” way to do something that isn’t a mechanic provided for in the rules is probably more a Dungeon Masters Only thread than a Rules and Mechanics thread. Nobody is right or wrong here, if a DM wants to let players get the jump on enemies without following surprise round mechanics, they’re free to do so, but there’s nothing in the rules that allows or encourages it or describes how it works.
The OP's situation is clearly more like the latter example. "I am suspicious of these NPCs, so I have my crossbow trained on them, and if any attack I'm going to shoot." One "free" crossbow attack is not going to break an encounter, and denying the reaction flies in the face of what any reasonable person would expect from a story that's trying to imitate reality. It's contrived to the point of being sincerely immersion-breaking.
This doesn't seem too great to me! Because, well... the NPCs can see that there's a crossbow trained on them. So, obviously, they're gonna try to attack fast enough that the PC doesn't get a chance to take the shot.
Are they successful? That's what initiative is for! Can the PCs react fast enough to get the first shot, or are the enemies too fast?
I don't think the PCs get to just say "I'm going to go faster than them." and then have that automatically be true.
I can certainly as a DM see times where a PC might get a chance to do a free attack on an enemy. But I don't think that has much to do with the "ready an action" rules at all; it's an independent thing.
The OP's situation is clearly more like the latter example. "I am suspicious of these NPCs, so I have my crossbow trained on them, and if any attack I'm going to shoot." One "free" crossbow attack is not going to break an encounter, and denying the reaction flies in the face of what any reasonable person would expect from a story that's trying to imitate reality. It's contrived to the point of being sincerely immersion-breaking.
This doesn't seem too great to me! Because, well... the NPCs can see that there's a crossbow trained on them. So, obviously, they're gonna try to attack fast enough that the PC doesn't get a chance to take the shot.
Are they successful? That's what initiative is for! Can the PCs react fast enough to get the first shot, or are the enemies too fast?
I don't think the PCs get to just say "I'm going to go faster than them." and then have that automatically be true.
I can certainly as a DM see times where a PC might get a chance to do a free attack on an enemy. But I don't think that has much to do with the "ready an action" rules at all; it's an independent thing.
here’s my way of making this more complicated than needs to be too...
player has crossbow trained and “readies” a attack if...
what’s to stop the NPCs they fought from seeing said crossbow, and outside combat ALL reading a “dodge” action then?
now every first round attack by PCs, until the NPCs turn, has disadvantage because of dodge.
its a slippery slope, and that’s why the rules are there for a reason.
or are you telling me, if someone points a crossbow at you, you wouldn’t try and dodge knowing it’s there pointed at you while you’re talking?
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So, i'm not exactly sure how this should work, I looked it up, but results seem unclear.
Basically, in a situation where a player Readies an attack, before combat has started, (or between waves, rather)
Other characters are looting, manoeuvring or attempting to diplomance/intimidate remaining potential hostiles, I had my character ready a crossbow shot if the npcs attacked us. The Intimidation attempt failed and they charged, so the DM had us roll initiative.
I believed that I should have gotten an attack in before the roll of initiative, since I spent my action, the turn before , to line up my shot. I could have buffed or drank a potion, but I chose to stand there with my finger on the trigger ready to shoot, because I believed that I'd get an attack as soon as they fufilled the criteria in my 'Readied Action'
I can see how this could lead to players trying to stack up readied actions to get free attacks in, but... that seems sensible to me. This is why you point your weapon at the enemy in threatening situations, because it gives you a speed advantage over those who only react to aggression after they have been attacked.
Likewise, in another theoretical situation, a group of players is waiting on one side of the doorway with crossbows, waiting for a group of enemies to pass through and approach them.
Both groups know where the other group is, so there's no surprise-round, but they haven't actually engaged yet, so initiative hasn't been rolled. Do those who've chosen to hunker down and ready actions (rather than spending their turn buffing or drinking potions) get some advantage over those who did not?
Personally, with the 'enemies walking through the doorway' situation, I'd treat it as though the enemies got hit by a trap right before combat started. Except in this case the 'trap' takes the form of several humanoids with ranged weapons, instead of spring-loaded spikes or a landmine.
Have everyone pick their targets (first couple of guys through the doorway only) then roll for hit/damage one after the other, tally up the injuries, then roll for initiative and everyone gets their turns as normal.
Would this be broken/exploitable?
Oh, keep in mind that particularly canny enemies could use these tactics too, so you'd learn not to walk through doorways or blind-corners without checking, or the first guy into the room might eat a full round of damage before combat even starts.
If you're prepared for it, it'd be easy to avoid though. If they're set to fire as soon as they see a person pass through the doorway, you could waste that readied action by poking a helmet on a stick around the corner, or just tossing a corpse, or make yourself mostly immune to it by readying your own action to take cover or Dodge.
In a situation where people on both sides of the battle have Readied Actions to attack, I'd just have those people roll initiative for turn-order, then everyone who didn't ready an action gets to join combat on the next turn. (not unlike a random encounter in the wilds, while half the party is still sleeping.)
For that matter, what happens if a player says 'I shoot x character' while you're not in combat? Do they roll initiative against the character they're attacking? Is it a surprise round? What if the attack itself isn't really that surprising (two hostile groups interacting with weapons brandished, but this is the first attack)
If your attack is what kicks off combat, then everyone else is reacting to you, so you have to go first, don;'t you?
So, TLDR: what happens if you attack/prepare to attack someone before combat has officially kicked off. Do you get to go first-in-turn, get a free attack and then roll initiative with everyone else as normal, get advantage on initiative, or what?
Technically you should have gotten to use your readied action immediately after rolling for initiative, before anyone else could act. And then you’d be in initiative as normal.
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Rules as written (RAW), you can't ready an action out of combat, and initiative is rolled as soon as combat starts. So if you're playing RAW you can't do that, no. My reason for saying that is that a Readied Action can only be "taken on your turn" and there is no such thing as a turn outside of combat scenarios.
Now I generally rule it differently at my table because I like my players to have fun, and I also then allow it to be used against them too. My only rule is that to hold the action they must be still and do nothing else - e.g. they can't hold and move into another room, or open a door, etc. It doesn't really mess up the encounters that I've run so far.
Morgoth has the right of it. My DM usually lets us abuse “readied” actions before combat, but there isn’t any rule support for it, “I shoot if they look hostile!” is already what an initiative roll is for. Now, “I shoot right now while they’re still talking”... THAT is something you could probably get away with, since you’re acting instead of reacting.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
As long as you are not surprised, you can use your reaction before your first turn of combat. I would allow a Ready action before initiative that could be triggered by events after initiative is rolled.
As long as the player is being reasonably specific about what will trigger the reaction, I don’t see how it can be abused.
The DM can do the same thing with NPCs so the players may not want it that way and if the players don’t want it then I wouldn’t allow it.
The best reason for a DM to not allow NPCs the Ready action before initiative is that it requires some work to not become a metagaming and record keeping mess.
So if I 'won' inititive (as in, first in order) then I would have gotten two attacks back-to-back?
Searching and using social skills like persuade or intimidate are mentioned to take a turn, even though you very rarely attempt to do them in combat. I assume that there's a very loose 'turn' system going on out of combat, just to ensure that players can't take three different actions at the same time.
There's also the matter of your movement speed (which is listed per-turn) dictating how far you can travel in a day, or whether you can outrun something.
I guess that could be an athletics check, but depending on the DM they might just look at your char-sheet and say 'Well, you can run 30ft in six seconds, and this wolf can run 40, so it's gonna catch you.'
As for doing nothing else... that's fair. RAW, it only takes your action, so you should still have access to your move and maybe your bonus action (so a rogue could move, use cunning action to hide, and still ready) but not being able to move after readying your action sounds like a fair way to balance something that could be pretty exploitable.
True that.
Unrelated, but I have some worries about using Booming Blade for similar reasons.
Not that I don't trust the DM, but if someone literally tells you 'if this guy moves on his next turn, he takes 1d8 thunder damage' then you're gonna have him not do that, probably without thinking about whether that's in-character decision.
So the problem is that the Ready action is listed under "Actions in Combat", and it specifically says it "must be taken on your turn". Meaning it can only be used in combat, and not before, so you can't take the Ready action before initiative.
Can you quote where those say they take a turn? I'll be surprised if it's mentioned anywhere other than a combat scenario. Search is listed under "Actions in Combat" so agreed, it is an action that must be done under initiative on your turn, the same as Ready.
Pursuade and Intimidate are skill checks and will not require your turn unless you are currently in initiative because there is no such thing as a turn outside of combat.
Yeah, that entry is for trying to persuade or intimidate in combat; talking is free during your turn, but if you’re trying to actually influence NPCs with an opposed check mid-combat, it takes an action.
Your DM is playing by the book to not allow actions to be readied before combat; a lot of DMs don’t with that rule, but it definitely cuts down on alpha strike cheese to enforce that, so good on him.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
There is literally nothing in the book that says you can't ready an action outside of combat. But there's nothing that says you can either, and there are (probably many) places where it says "if the action you describe isn't covered by any rule, your DM decides how to handle it."
There is no rule for readying outside of combat; that doesn't mean you can't do it, as some posters here are suggesting, but it does mean that the mechanics are up to DM discretion.
There's nothing cheesy about preparing an alpha strike. That's just good planning, and saying "you can't do it" just because there's no rule for it is arbitrary and contrived. I've absolutely done it to my players, and I would expect them to do it if they were in a defensible position and knew an attack was imminent.
I agree this is always up to DM discretion, they can rule however they want and as I said previously I allow my players to ready attacks if they want to. The rules for this scenario are very light but also pretty clear in my opinion, and I think the difference is whether we are saying the PCs are doing the "Ready Action" (only listed as combat action) or they are just preparing to attack when an enemy comes into view.
1. You can tell the DM you are going to attack the first enemy you see, therefore "readying your attack" but this is not truly the "Ready Action" because that can only be done in combat.
2. Once the "readied action" is triggered combat is initiated and the DM should follow the normal rules for starting combat - determining surprise and initiative order - because the NPC might react faster than the PCs unless the PCs were stealthed.
Specifically talking about readying an Attack action, you are deciding that when an enemy comes into view you are going to attack them. Attack actions are made in combat only (it is specifically listed as "Actions in Combat"), so in this case you are going to enter combat and normal combat rules apply.
That is:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are — how far away and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
So the DM could determine that the enemies are surprised automatically without having the PCs roll a stealth check vs monster's passive perception, and award a surprise round. That is the DM's choice. However that is not RAW.
Determining Surprise
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
As always, fun is more important than rules and I normally rule the players can just automatically attack if they held their attack. But this is a forum specifically about determining the rules, and nothing supports holding your attack action outside of initiative order but there are rules which go against it.
I probably wouldn't allow it. The "ready" action specifically lets a player effectively pass their turn to take the action later. I don't think it's right to use that to, effectively, get a free action at the start of combat.
After all, then the enemies can do it too! They'd also just "ready" an action for when combat starts. If the PC gets to say "I attack when I see the enemy!" then the enemy also gets to say "I attack when I see the PC!" and then it's a big mess. Or it could mean that the PCs effectively always get a free action at the start of every combat in a dungeon crawl, if they're the ones starting the fights.
IMO, the initiative and surprise rules are already there to determine who gets to take their actions when, in-combat. If both sides are aware of each other, everyone rolls initiative - and that determines who gets to act when. If someone is being stealthy, the stealth/surprise rules can make some enemies effectively miss their first turn.
That sort of slippery slope argument is honestly nonsense. There's a world of difference between a player saying "well, we see the goblins and they see us, but the DM hasn't called for initiative yet, so I'm gonna 'ready an action' to get an attack before combat starts" and a player saying "we can hear the goblins outside our room, we know something's going to come smashing through that door, so I'm gonna put a crossbow bolt through its chest as soon as it does." It's the DM's job to recognize that they're different situations and adjudicate them differently.
The difference is between a player saying "how do I manipulate the rules to create an unrealistic scenario to my mechanical benefit?" and a DM saying "what rule best models the completely reasonable and realistic thing my player is doing?"
The OP's situation is clearly more like the latter example. "I am suspicious of these NPCs, so I have my crossbow trained on them, and if any attack I'm going to shoot." One "free" crossbow attack is not going to break an encounter, and denying the reaction flies in the face of what any reasonable person would expect from a story that's trying to imitate reality. It's contrived to the point of being sincerely immersion-breaking.
If the PCs are in a situation where readying an attack is appropriate, rolling for initiative is appropriate.
Saga, I think the scenario you outlined is exactly what the surprise condition is designed for but honestly I feel it's implementation is not ideal.
The party hears goblins approaching and they want to attack? It should be stealth rolls to see if they are discovered or manage to surprise the goblins.
I disagree pretty strongly. To continue with the goblin dungeon example, it's both boring gameplay and bad storytelling to go through five rounds of the party doing exactly nothing while they wait for the goblins to get to the door. The action starts when the door is broken down, and that's when initiative is appropriate. And telling a player that they get exactly nothing for being prepared for just that occasion is unimaginative DMing that's going to frustrate the player enough to make a forum post about it.
It's exactly not what surprise is designed for. In this example both groups are completely aware of each other, but the precise circumstances are such that mechanically starting combat is inappropriate until something else happens. If a PC anticipates what that "something else" is, they deserve something for that.
Just wanted to address this one point: turns do exist out of combat if it ever becomes necessary to track time at such a fine level. However as Lunali astutely points out it rarely makes sense to ready actions outside of combat since any offensive actions should prompt the DM to roll for initiative and if the action wouldn't start combat there's no need to worry about turn order.
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Debating the “right” way to do something that isn’t a mechanic provided for in the rules is probably more a Dungeon Masters Only thread than a Rules and Mechanics thread. Nobody is right or wrong here, if a DM wants to let players get the jump on enemies without following surprise round mechanics, they’re free to do so, but there’s nothing in the rules that allows or encourages it or describes how it works.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
This doesn't seem too great to me! Because, well... the NPCs can see that there's a crossbow trained on them. So, obviously, they're gonna try to attack fast enough that the PC doesn't get a chance to take the shot.
Are they successful? That's what initiative is for! Can the PCs react fast enough to get the first shot, or are the enemies too fast?
I don't think the PCs get to just say "I'm going to go faster than them." and then have that automatically be true.
I can certainly as a DM see times where a PC might get a chance to do a free attack on an enemy. But I don't think that has much to do with the "ready an action" rules at all; it's an independent thing.
here’s my way of making this more complicated than needs to be too...
player has crossbow trained and “readies” a attack if...
what’s to stop the NPCs they fought from seeing said crossbow, and outside combat ALL reading a “dodge” action then?
now every first round attack by PCs, until the NPCs turn, has disadvantage because of dodge.
its a slippery slope, and that’s why the rules are there for a reason.
or are you telling me, if someone points a crossbow at you, you wouldn’t try and dodge knowing it’s there pointed at you while you’re talking?
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