I am buying a wagon and want to set it up as a kind of traveling merchant/smugglers vehicle. I have read over the descriptions for a few spells like Alarm, Magic Mouth and Programmed Illusion and dont see any reason that they could not be cast on a movable target. Did i miss something or would they attach to and travel with the wagon?
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Magic Mouth targets an object; a wagon should qualify, so that one's fine.
Programmed Illusion won't work. The illusion can move as part of its programmed response (for up to five minutes), but the starting location doesn't change once it's been cast.
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Magic Mouth targets an object; a wagon should qualify, so that one's fine.
Programmed Illusion won't work. The illusion can move as part of its programmed response (for up to five minutes), but the starting location doesn't change once it's been cast.
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Alarm will work without doors/windows. It can target an area of up to a 20ft cube, and the point of origin for that area can be the wagon itself. There isn't a stipulation that the targeted area must be immobile.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Alarm will work without doors/windows. It can target an area of up to a 20ft cube, and the point of origin for that area can be the wagon itself. There isn't a stipulation that the targeted area must be immobile.
Sure there is. It targets an area, not an object. An area can't move. A different location is fundamentally a different area.
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Alarm will work without doors/windows. It can target an area of up to a 20ft cube, and the point of origin for that area can be the wagon itself. There isn't a stipulation that the targeted area must be immobile.
Sure there is. It targets an area, not an object. An area can't move. A different location is fundamentally a different area.
Nah, there really isn't. The same logic would dictate that Alarm would only trigger when a creature interacts with the specific window/door the spell was cast on.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Alarm will work without doors/windows. It can target an area of up to a 20ft cube, and the point of origin for that area can be the wagon itself. There isn't a stipulation that the targeted area must be immobile.
Sure there is. It targets an area, not an object. An area can't move. A different location is fundamentally a different area.
Nah, there really isn't. The same logic would dictate that Alarm would only trigger when a creature interacts with the specific window/door the spell was cast on.
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Alarm will work without doors/windows. It can target an area of up to a 20ft cube, and the point of origin for that area can be the wagon itself. There isn't a stipulation that the targeted area must be immobile.
Sure there is. It targets an area, not an object. An area can't move. A different location is fundamentally a different area.
Nah, there really isn't. The same logic would dictate that Alarm would only trigger when a creature interacts with the specific window/door the spell was cast on.
Yes? That's exactly how it works.
If you were in a 5ft cube with a window on each plane, only one of those 6 windows would trigger the alarm under that logic. That's not how the spell functions.
Alarm functions when a creature touches or enters an area of 20 cubic feet centered on the object/point it is cast upon, not just the specific object/point itself. It is not limited to just ingress via a window/door.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Alarm will work without doors/windows. It can target an area of up to a 20ft cube, and the point of origin for that area can be the wagon itself. There isn't a stipulation that the targeted area must be immobile.
Sure there is. It targets an area, not an object. An area can't move. A different location is fundamentally a different area.
Nah, there really isn't. The same logic would dictate that Alarm would only trigger when a creature interacts with the specific window/door the spell was cast on.
Yes? That's exactly how it works.
If you were in a 5ft cube with a window on each plane, only one of those 6 windows would trigger the alarm under that logic. That's not how the spell functions.
Alarm functions when a creature touches or enters an area of 20 cubic feet centered on the object/point it is cast upon, not just the specific object/point itself. It is not limited to just ingress via a window/door.
That is exactly how the spell functions. The spell says: "Choose a door, a window, or an area within range that is no larger than a 20-foot cube. Until the spell ends, an alarm alerts you whenever a Tiny or larger creature touches or enters the warded area." You don't get an area no larger than a 20-foot cube if you pick a door or a window. It's a choice. There is absolutely nothing in the spell text to support your position.
I haven’t read it yet, but it sounds like the area originates from the object. Therefore, the area should move along with it.
If you cast Alarm on a door or window, then the target is an object, and certainly nothing prevents that object from moving, as I initially said. But if you cast it on an area no larger than a 20-foot cube, nothing about the spell lets you "attach" it to an object. The only object targets allowed by the spell are doors and windows. As a DM I'd be happy to be flexible about that, but I think it's important to understand what the RAW actually is before houseruling it to allow something else.
Yeah Sigred, you're not reading the spell carefully. Alarm has three options for its target:
A door within range
A window within range
A 20-foot cube within range
Then, it alerts you when a creature "touches or enters" whatever you picked. If you picked a door or window, it triggers when they touch or enter that door or window. If you picked a 20-foot cube, then it triggers when they touch anything within that cube, or enter its area.
For the 20-foot cube, the target is the area, not an object within the area that the cube is centered on.
So yes, you can cast Alarm on a mobile object that is a door or window on a wagon- heck, you could carry the door frame with you strapped to your back! But if the intruder doesn't use that door/window, then you've missed them. Or, you can cast it on a larger area and guarantee to ping intruders, but with the drawback that it has to be a stationary because areas don't move, objects do. Saga has it right in all respects.
Meh. I don't think I'm reading it incorrectly, but I don't have a dog in this fight either. A 20ft cube is not a lot of space.. 10 feet from origin in the cardinal directions to the plane intercepts.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I haven’t read it yet, but it sounds like the area originates from the object. Therefore, the area should move along with it.
If you cast Alarm on a door or window, then the target is an object, and certainly nothing prevents that object from moving, as I initially said. But if you cast it on an area no larger than a 20-foot cube, nothing about the spell lets you "attach" it to an object. The only object targets allowed by the spell are doors and windows. As a DM I'd be happy to be flexible about that, but I think it's important to understand what the RAW actually is before houseruling it to allow something else.
I mean, you can cast it when you're on a boat, right?
It's part of the fiction of the world that "the ground" is a fixed reference frame. Like, you can cast something on an area while standing on a planet - but if the planet is orbiting a sun, or rotating, does that mean that any fixed area whizzes to a mile away every round? No, that's dumb. An area is a fixed area - a few square on your grid if you're playing with a map on a grid. Including if your grid is a map of a boat.
Likewise, "Alarm" doesn't define what exactly is a door, or what's a window - use the common English definition, it's usually obvious, and don't push it to do dumb things with it.
So as a DM, I'd probably rule the questions of alarm via RAI. The point of the spell is to alarm if someone opens a door, or gets into some area they shouldn't. I'd probably allow alarming, say, a chest (is opening a chest like opening a door or window? Sure, close enough) or putting the alarm on a large fixed thing like a wagon (sure, entering the wagon via the back is close enough to going in a door). I wouldn't let you cast alarm on a rock, and then toss the rock into a room to see whether there's any living creatures moving around in it. A rock is not a door and that clearly does not align with the way the spell is supposed to be used.
If you're below decks in a completely confined space, and cast the spell on a 20x20 section of the floor, which does not appear to be in any relative motion whatsoever... will the Alarm spell simply not work?
The spell does not say the 20 ft cube must be immobile. It doesn't even have to be a 20 ft cube. It says "UP TO" a 20 ft cube.
If the area of your Alarm spell fits entirely within the wagon, it won't matter whether the wagon is moving or not.
Everything is moving. The planet is moving. Tectonic plates are moving.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
You’re trying to create a slippery slope using real world physics and cosmology Which does nothing to benefit the rule system of the game you are attempting to play. If you’re asking “what does it mean to move?”, then this answer is plain in front of you for dungeons and dragons: are you in a situation where your movement through space is being measured in speed? if you were on a wagon or you are walking or you are riding a horse .... yes probably? if you are standing on a planet or the interior of a boat or an airship or a train where the story is taking place inside of this vehicle... no most likely not. If anything is being tracked or could be tracked using the speed stat, then you’re moving and you’re moving out of an area. If not then you’re probably OK casting an alarm on whatever space you reside in regardless of whether it is in motion relative to some other abstract theoretical celestial body That isn’t actually relevant for the scene your DM is trying to paint.
So there no more slippery slope... and no casting alarm inside of a moving wagon as you drive it through town.
If you're below decks in a completely confined space, and cast the spell on a 20x20 section of the floor, which does not appear to be in any relative motion whatsoever... will the Alarm spell simply not work?
The spell does not say the 20 ft cube must be immobile. It doesn't even have to be a 20 ft cube. It says "UP TO" a 20 ft cube.
If the area of your Alarm spell fits entirely within the wagon, it won't matter whether the wagon is moving or not.
Everything is moving. The planet is moving. Tectonic plates are moving.
I have no idea why you would think the spell “simply won’t work.” The spell says to choose an area. Thirty feet away from that area is not that area anymore. The wagon may occupy the area when you cast it, but the area is the area, not the wagon. If the wagon leaves the area, it leaves the area.
As ftl mentioned, the rules assume a fixed frame of reference for location. The “ground” is assumed to be immobile. A ship is maybe big enough to be “its own environment,” so to speak, and to become its own fixed frame of reference when it comes to placing an area. That’s up to the GM. But a wagon is pretty unambiguously not.
Allowing the target area to move pretty egregiously violates both the letter and the spirit of the spell. Just allowing the caster to target the wagon itself, even if it doesn’t technically have a door per se, is far more reasonable and in line with the RAI, even if it’s a bit of a leap from the RAW.
A ship is maybe big enough to be “its own environment,” so to speak,
So what then, specifically, is the difference between the ship and the wagon? That's what I'm unclear on.
Is it the size? Can you put a specific number on the necessary dimensions of a vehicle at which point it becomes "it's own environment"?
If the dimensions of the casting of the spell fit completely within the confines of the wagon, then the wagon becomes the frame of reference. Just as if a cloud giant were to cast Alarm in his floating sky castle, the castle becomes the frame of reference, even though it is moving.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Tayn, the difference between the ship and the wagon is the scope of narrative, and what's useful for gameplay. A ship is a setting. A ship can be a battle map. You can have encounters on a ship, days on a ship, stories where it's relevant to ward one room in a ship against intruders from another part of a ship. A wagon is not any of that, it's a mode of travel.
The rules of Alarm are not based on some sort of great metaphysical truth about the motion of celestial bodies or ships or wagons. It is a spell that is designed to ward A) a door/window, or B) a small room or campsite. The language is honestly pretty tight to avoid a RAW vs RAI conflict, and any attempt to up end our entire concept of what "movement" really is for the sake of allowing 20 foot areas to become mobile is a stretch at best and bad faith at worst.
It isn't this complicated. The area doesn't move, the door or window can.
I am buying a wagon and want to set it up as a kind of traveling merchant/smugglers vehicle. I have read over the descriptions for a few spells like Alarm, Magic Mouth and Programmed Illusion and dont see any reason that they could not be cast on a movable target. Did i miss something or would they attach to and travel with the wagon?
Alarm will work as long as you cast it on a window or door, so the wagon has to have one of those.
Magic Mouth targets an object; a wagon should qualify, so that one's fine.
Programmed Illusion won't work. The illusion can move as part of its programmed response (for up to five minutes), but the starting location doesn't change once it's been cast.
An open wagon is just a sunroof with wheels ;-).
Alarm will work without doors/windows. It can target an area of up to a 20ft cube, and the point of origin for that area can be the wagon itself. There isn't a stipulation that the targeted area must be immobile.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sure there is. It targets an area, not an object. An area can't move. A different location is fundamentally a different area.
Nah, there really isn't. The same logic would dictate that Alarm would only trigger when a creature interacts with the specific window/door the spell was cast on.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Honestly, who has a wagon without doors or windows?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes? That's exactly how it works.
If you were in a 5ft cube with a window on each plane, only one of those 6 windows would trigger the alarm under that logic. That's not how the spell functions.
Alarm functions when a creature touches or enters an area of 20 cubic feet centered on the object/point it is cast upon, not just the specific object/point itself. It is not limited to just ingress via a window/door.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Who says an area can’t move?
I haven’t read it yet, but it sounds like the area originates from the object. Therefore, the area should move along with it.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
That is exactly how the spell functions. The spell says: "Choose a door, a window, or an area within range that is no larger than a 20-foot cube. Until the spell ends, an alarm alerts you whenever a Tiny or larger creature touches or enters the warded area." You don't get an area no larger than a 20-foot cube if you pick a door or a window. It's a choice. There is absolutely nothing in the spell text to support your position.
If you cast Alarm on a door or window, then the target is an object, and certainly nothing prevents that object from moving, as I initially said. But if you cast it on an area no larger than a 20-foot cube, nothing about the spell lets you "attach" it to an object. The only object targets allowed by the spell are doors and windows. As a DM I'd be happy to be flexible about that, but I think it's important to understand what the RAW actually is before houseruling it to allow something else.
Yeah Sigred, you're not reading the spell carefully. Alarm has three options for its target:
Then, it alerts you when a creature "touches or enters" whatever you picked. If you picked a door or window, it triggers when they touch or enter that door or window. If you picked a 20-foot cube, then it triggers when they touch anything within that cube, or enter its area.
For the 20-foot cube, the target is the area, not an object within the area that the cube is centered on.
So yes, you can cast Alarm on a mobile object that is a door or window on a wagon- heck, you could carry the door frame with you strapped to your back! But if the intruder doesn't use that door/window, then you've missed them. Or, you can cast it on a larger area and guarantee to ping intruders, but with the drawback that it has to be a stationary because areas don't move, objects do. Saga has it right in all respects.
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Meh. I don't think I'm reading it incorrectly, but I don't have a dog in this fight either. A 20ft cube is not a lot of space.. 10 feet from origin in the cardinal directions to the plane intercepts.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I mean, you can cast it when you're on a boat, right?
It's part of the fiction of the world that "the ground" is a fixed reference frame. Like, you can cast something on an area while standing on a planet - but if the planet is orbiting a sun, or rotating, does that mean that any fixed area whizzes to a mile away every round? No, that's dumb. An area is a fixed area - a few square on your grid if you're playing with a map on a grid. Including if your grid is a map of a boat.
It reminds me of this sage advice Q&A - https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/03/01/can-you-set-a-permanent-circle-of-teleportation-on-a-moving-structure-like-a-ship/ can you cast teleportation circle on a ship? And the answer was basically "'The ground' has a common definition in English that's usually obvious. If you try to push it, it's up to the DM".
Likewise, "Alarm" doesn't define what exactly is a door, or what's a window - use the common English definition, it's usually obvious, and don't push it to do dumb things with it.
So as a DM, I'd probably rule the questions of alarm via RAI. The point of the spell is to alarm if someone opens a door, or gets into some area they shouldn't. I'd probably allow alarming, say, a chest (is opening a chest like opening a door or window? Sure, close enough) or putting the alarm on a large fixed thing like a wagon (sure, entering the wagon via the back is close enough to going in a door). I wouldn't let you cast alarm on a rock, and then toss the rock into a room to see whether there's any living creatures moving around in it. A rock is not a door and that clearly does not align with the way the spell is supposed to be used.
So can Alarm not be used on a ship at sea?
If you're below decks in a completely confined space, and cast the spell on a 20x20 section of the floor, which does not appear to be in any relative motion whatsoever... will the Alarm spell simply not work?
The spell does not say the 20 ft cube must be immobile. It doesn't even have to be a 20 ft cube. It says "UP TO" a 20 ft cube.
If the area of your Alarm spell fits entirely within the wagon, it won't matter whether the wagon is moving or not.
Everything is moving. The planet is moving. Tectonic plates are moving.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
You’re trying to create a slippery slope using real world physics and cosmology Which does nothing to benefit the rule system of the game you are attempting to play. If you’re asking “what does it mean to move?”, then this answer is plain in front of you for dungeons and dragons: are you in a situation where your movement through space is being measured in speed? if you were on a wagon or you are walking or you are riding a horse .... yes probably? if you are standing on a planet or the interior of a boat or an airship or a train where the story is taking place inside of this vehicle... no most likely not. If anything is being tracked or could be tracked using the speed stat, then you’re moving and you’re moving out of an area. If not then you’re probably OK casting an alarm on whatever space you reside in regardless of whether it is in motion relative to some other abstract theoretical celestial body That isn’t actually relevant for the scene your DM is trying to paint.
So there no more slippery slope... and no casting alarm inside of a moving wagon as you drive it through town.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I have no idea why you would think the spell “simply won’t work.” The spell says to choose an area. Thirty feet away from that area is not that area anymore. The wagon may occupy the area when you cast it, but the area is the area, not the wagon. If the wagon leaves the area, it leaves the area.
As ftl mentioned, the rules assume a fixed frame of reference for location. The “ground” is assumed to be immobile. A ship is maybe big enough to be “its own environment,” so to speak, and to become its own fixed frame of reference when it comes to placing an area. That’s up to the GM. But a wagon is pretty unambiguously not.
Allowing the target area to move pretty egregiously violates both the letter and the spirit of the spell. Just allowing the caster to target the wagon itself, even if it doesn’t technically have a door per se, is far more reasonable and in line with the RAI, even if it’s a bit of a leap from the RAW.
A ship is maybe big enough to be “its own environment,” so to speak,
So what then, specifically, is the difference between the ship and the wagon? That's what I'm unclear on.
Is it the size? Can you put a specific number on the necessary dimensions of a vehicle at which point it becomes "it's own environment"?
If the dimensions of the casting of the spell fit completely within the confines of the wagon, then the wagon becomes the frame of reference. Just as if a cloud giant were to cast Alarm in his floating sky castle, the castle becomes the frame of reference, even though it is moving.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
Tayn, the difference between the ship and the wagon is the scope of narrative, and what's useful for gameplay. A ship is a setting. A ship can be a battle map. You can have encounters on a ship, days on a ship, stories where it's relevant to ward one room in a ship against intruders from another part of a ship. A wagon is not any of that, it's a mode of travel.
The rules of Alarm are not based on some sort of great metaphysical truth about the motion of celestial bodies or ships or wagons. It is a spell that is designed to ward A) a door/window, or B) a small room or campsite. The language is honestly pretty tight to avoid a RAW vs RAI conflict, and any attempt to up end our entire concept of what "movement" really is for the sake of allowing 20 foot areas to become mobile is a stretch at best and bad faith at worst.
It isn't this complicated. The area doesn't move, the door or window can.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.