This is the thread for recalculating the listed CR of various monsters.
For example, deer, eagles, goats, hyenas, quippers, scorpions, and vultures are listed as CR 0 but would be CR 1/8 if their CR was calculated according to the rules in the DMG.
Quippers deal 1 point of damage with their attack (offensive CR 0, expected attack bonus +3), but that attack is made at +5 to hit, which sets their offensive CR to 1/8. 1 HP and AC 13 put them at defensive CR 0. Round up to CR 1/8.
Goats have 4 HP and AC 10, giving them defensive CR 0. Their attack does 1d4+1 at +3 to hit and they have a 1d4 Charge feature. Average damage per round over the standard three rounds is 4.3333333333333333333333333333, for offensive CR 1/4. Average CR 1/8.
A scorpion does 1 damage and forces a DC 9 saving throw. The target takes 1d8 damage on a failed save or half as much on a successful one. On a successful save, that's roughly 3.25 damage; 5.5 on a failed save. Using the higher damage and only the save DC puts them at offensive CR 0, but using only the attack bonus puts them at offensive CR 1/4 (round average damage down). The DMG says to use whichever comes up more often, so I use the average of the attack bonus' CR adjustment and the save DC's CR adjustment, because the attack bonus determines whether the attack hits but the save DC determines a lot more of the damage, for offensive CR 1/8. 1 HP and AC 11 put them at defensive CR 0. Round up to CR 1/8, but it would still be CR 1/8 if I'd ignored the save DC.
Eagles are strong. 3 HP and AC 12 for defensive CR 0. 1d4+2 at +4 to hit for offensive CR 1/4. Average CR 1/8.
Hyenas have 5 HP and AC 11, putting them at defensive CR 0. 1d6 damage at +2 to hit, but they have Pack Tactics, but Pack Tactics only increases effective attack bonus by 1, for whatever reason, so offensive CR 1/8. Vultures are the same, but with 1 less AC and 1d4 damage, neither of which has any effect on either offensive or defensive CR. Both round up to CR 1/8.
Deer have 4 HP and AC 13 for defensive CR 0. 1d4 damage at +2 to hit puts them at offensive CR 1/8. Round up to CR 1/8. Technically, anything that can do 1d4 at +2 to hit is at least CR 1/8, like commoners.
Now on to some of the fun stuff, like flying snakes. I see 3d4+1 at +6 to hit, for offensive CR 1. I also see 5 HP, AC 14, a 60-foot flying speed, and Flyby, which tell me that it can "fly and deal damage at range", which means that it gets +2 to its effective AC, which puts it at defensive CR 1/8. Round up to CR 1/2.
Guard. Spear and shield. 1d6+1 at +3 to hit for offensive CR 1/4. 11 HP and AC 16 for defensive CR 1/4. CR 1/4. Simple.
A hobgoblin can be expected to deal 1d8+2d6+1 per round, at +3 to hit, for a solid offensive CR 1. 11 HP and AC 18 (18!) put its defensive CR at 1/2. Round up to CR 1.
Bugbear? 27 HP, AC 16, defensive CR 1/4. 2d8+2, +4 to hit, extra 2d6 damage one round, average 13.333333333333333333333333333 per round over three rounds, offensive CR 1. Average CR 1/2. I could probably get a TPK on 4 1st-levels, but it calculates at CR 1/2.
And then there's the ghoul. It either makes one attack at +2 to hit that deals an average of 9 damage, putting them just barely at offensive CR 1, or it makes one attack at +4 to hit that deals an average of 7 damage and forces the target to save or be paralyzed. Unfortunately, the saving throw is only DC 10 and repeatable at the end of each of the victim's turns. Best case scenario, it paralyzes one PC and proceeds to flail away at them with advantage until it goes down; one round of 7 damage at +4 to hit followed by two rounds of 9 damage at +2 to hit with advantage, and one PC isn't attacking it. It has 22 HP, putting it squarely in the middle of the CR 1/8 HP bracket, and AC 12, leaving it there. Immunity to poison damage isn't going to get its effective HP to the next range. Paralyzing one PC isn't going to get its effective AC above 14, so the best it can hope for is net CR 1/2, and that's rounded up.
The ghast is pretty bad, too. Best attack: 2d6+3 at +5 to hit for offensive CR 2. 36 HP, AC 13, one resistance, one immunity, and Stench. CR 1/4 HP; it's debatable whether one resistance and one immunity are sufficient to get its effective HP to 50, but it doesn't really matter. Stench will put its effective AC at 14, which won't make any difference. Regardless of whether you let it have defensive CR 1/2, it's CR 1.
I think a part of the "calculated according to the rules in the DMG." process that often gets completely ignored is the step in which one adjusts the CR up or down the scale after using it in play if it seems appropriate to do so.
It's not intended to be treated as hard math, especially when special features are part of the danger of a creature but aren't easily quantified in numbers.
I think a part of the "calculated according to the rules in the DMG." process that often gets completely ignored is the step in which one adjusts the CR up or down the scale after using it in play if it seems appropriate to do so.
It's not intended to be treated as hard math, especially when special features are part of the danger of a creature but aren't easily quantified in numbers.
I can see that justifying quippers, commoners, bugbears, and maybe a few others, but guards are tough. 4 guards versus 1 3rd-level fighter with full health: guards won with 1 damaged survivor. I thought it was a fluke, so I waited for him to heal and tried again. Same result. Admittedly, that was before he got to the city to buy plate, but, on the other hand, he got a shot or two off with his longbow before they closed with him each time. Conclusion: guards deserve to be considered CR 1/4.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I can see that justifying quippers, commoners, bugbears, and maybe a few others, but guards are tough. 4 guards versus 1 3rd-level fighter with full health: guards won with 1 damaged survivor. I thought it was a fluke, so I waited for him to heal and tried again. Same result. Admittedly, that was before he got to the city to buy plate, but, on the other hand, he got a shot or two off with his longbow before they closed with him each time. Conclusion: guards deserve to be considered CR 1/4.
A 1 PC fight is not what CR is based on though, so your test isn't under valid conditions to determine that CR isn't doing what it is claiming to do.
The definition of CR shows that it's based around a 4-character party that is well-rested and appropriately equipped, and even then the only expectation that it sets is that a monster with CR equal to the party's level won't kill any of the characters in the process of them defeating it.
When you stack up guards against a full party, even the around 10 of them it would take to create a similar difficulty encounter that 3 guards is for 1 character according to the encounter building guidelines, there is actually very low chance that they manage to kill any of the characters barring the DM deliberately skewing the encounter towards that result.
The first reason was to create a place for me and people like me to share their recalculations of monsters' CRs.
The second reason was to stop bothering the moderators with homebrew monsters that have nothing but CR differentiating them from their namesakes.
I know about that last step, but I quite simply don't care. This isn't the thread for that. This also isn't the thread for that argument we've been having.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Sorry, didn't realize you were looking for an echo chamber-like experience for this thread. I'll keep my opinions out of this public discussion space from this point forward.
So my big question (and it puzzles me every time I design an encounter for my players) - spell casters and figuring out their average damage per round.
HOW. THE. HELL. DO. I. FIGURE. IT. OUT!?!
And then when some spells use saving throws that changes how you calculate vs. straight damage spells? I've always looked at backwards calculating monsters, and majority do seem to hot the mark but some are a little off.
So my big question (and it puzzles me every time I design an encounter for my players) - spell casters and figuring out their average damage per round.
HOW. THE. HELL. DO. I. FIGURE. IT. OUT!?!
And then when some spells use saving throws that changes how you calculate vs. straight damage spells? I've always looked at backwards calculating monsters, and majority do seem to hot the mark but some are a little off.
Count their damage for purposes of CR as though they cast their most damaging spells over the first three rounds of combat.
Then use either their spell attack bonus, or their save DC, depending on which is most responsible for their spells being effective.
And don't forget to add any defensive advantages that spells grant them like boosts to AC or increased effective hit points.
For defense, they have 22 HP (CR 1/8), bumped up to 29 effective HP by Undead Fortitude (still CR 1/8), one immunity (not enough to trigger an increase, not that it would matter if it was); and AC 8 (you can't miss 'em (sorry, I just had to do that pun)) and one saving throw (not enough for an increase in effective AC), putting their defensive CR at a whopping 0, and that's only because there's no such thing as negative CR; if there was such a thing as negative CR, the zombie's defensive CR would be negative.
Now, you might be thinking that surely, surely they have some really nasty attack, or a damaging aura, or an absurdly high attack bonus, or at least Multiattack. They don't. Just 1d6+1 at +3 to hit, for offensive CR 1/4.
Offensive CR 1/4 and defensive CR 0 put the D&D 5e zombie at CR 1/8. Try giving them two attacks per action, or maybe some natural armor.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I think the issue with the zombie is that Undead Fortitude is undervalued. Maybe I'm just abnormally lucky, but I've seen it add a lot more staying power on average than another 7 hp would - without someone in the party dealing radiant damage, I've seen zombies get as many as 5 extra turns before being destroyed because of Undead Fortitude.
I think the issue with the zombie is that Undead Fortitude is undervalued. Maybe I'm just abnormally lucky, but I've seen it add a lot more staying power on average than another 7 hp would - without someone in the party dealing radiant damage, I've seen zombies get as many as 5 extra turns before being destroyed because of Undead Fortitude.
Well, let's see. 1d8+3 isn't exactly unreasonable to assume, I don't think; that averages to 7.5. Rounding down gets us a conservative average DC 12. Zombies have +3 to Con, so that's a 60% chance to survive a hit. I can only assume that you're just unlucky, but I would agree that Undead Fortitude is probably worth around 14 extra effective HP, not that that would change the things' defensive CR.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
This is the thread for recalculating the listed CR of various monsters.
For example, deer, eagles, goats, hyenas, quippers, scorpions, and vultures are listed as CR 0 but would be CR 1/8 if their CR was calculated according to the rules in the DMG.
Quippers deal 1 point of damage with their attack (offensive CR 0, expected attack bonus +3), but that attack is made at +5 to hit, which sets their offensive CR to 1/8. 1 HP and AC 13 put them at defensive CR 0. Round up to CR 1/8.
Goats have 4 HP and AC 10, giving them defensive CR 0. Their attack does 1d4+1 at +3 to hit and they have a 1d4 Charge feature. Average damage per round over the standard three rounds is 4.3333333333333333333333333333, for offensive CR 1/4. Average CR 1/8.
A scorpion does 1 damage and forces a DC 9 saving throw. The target takes 1d8 damage on a failed save or half as much on a successful one. On a successful save, that's roughly 3.25 damage; 5.5 on a failed save. Using the higher damage and only the save DC puts them at offensive CR 0, but using only the attack bonus puts them at offensive CR 1/4 (round average damage down). The DMG says to use whichever comes up more often, so I use the average of the attack bonus' CR adjustment and the save DC's CR adjustment, because the attack bonus determines whether the attack hits but the save DC determines a lot more of the damage, for offensive CR 1/8. 1 HP and AC 11 put them at defensive CR 0. Round up to CR 1/8, but it would still be CR 1/8 if I'd ignored the save DC.
Eagles are strong. 3 HP and AC 12 for defensive CR 0. 1d4+2 at +4 to hit for offensive CR 1/4. Average CR 1/8.
Hyenas have 5 HP and AC 11, putting them at defensive CR 0. 1d6 damage at +2 to hit, but they have Pack Tactics, but Pack Tactics only increases effective attack bonus by 1, for whatever reason, so offensive CR 1/8. Vultures are the same, but with 1 less AC and 1d4 damage, neither of which has any effect on either offensive or defensive CR. Both round up to CR 1/8.
Deer have 4 HP and AC 13 for defensive CR 0. 1d4 damage at +2 to hit puts them at offensive CR 1/8. Round up to CR 1/8. Technically, anything that can do 1d4 at +2 to hit is at least CR 1/8, like commoners.
Now on to some of the fun stuff, like flying snakes. I see 3d4+1 at +6 to hit, for offensive CR 1. I also see 5 HP, AC 14, a 60-foot flying speed, and Flyby, which tell me that it can "fly and deal damage at range", which means that it gets +2 to its effective AC, which puts it at defensive CR 1/8. Round up to CR 1/2.
Guard. Spear and shield. 1d6+1 at +3 to hit for offensive CR 1/4. 11 HP and AC 16 for defensive CR 1/4. CR 1/4. Simple.
A hobgoblin can be expected to deal 1d8+2d6+1 per round, at +3 to hit, for a solid offensive CR 1. 11 HP and AC 18 (18!) put its defensive CR at 1/2. Round up to CR 1.
Bugbear? 27 HP, AC 16, defensive CR 1/4. 2d8+2, +4 to hit, extra 2d6 damage one round, average 13.333333333333333333333333333 per round over three rounds, offensive CR 1. Average CR 1/2. I could probably get a TPK on 4 1st-levels, but it calculates at CR 1/2.
And then there's the ghoul.
It either makes one attack at +2 to hit that deals an average of 9 damage, putting them just barely at offensive CR 1, or it makes one attack at +4 to hit that deals an average of 7 damage and forces the target to save or be paralyzed. Unfortunately, the saving throw is only DC 10 and repeatable at the end of each of the victim's turns. Best case scenario, it paralyzes one PC and proceeds to flail away at them with advantage until it goes down; one round of 7 damage at +4 to hit followed by two rounds of 9 damage at +2 to hit with advantage, and one PC isn't attacking it.
It has 22 HP, putting it squarely in the middle of the CR 1/8 HP bracket, and AC 12, leaving it there. Immunity to poison damage isn't going to get its effective HP to the next range. Paralyzing one PC isn't going to get its effective AC above 14, so the best it can hope for is net CR 1/2, and that's rounded up.
The ghast is pretty bad, too. Best attack: 2d6+3 at +5 to hit for offensive CR 2. 36 HP, AC 13, one resistance, one immunity, and Stench. CR 1/4 HP; it's debatable whether one resistance and one immunity are sufficient to get its effective HP to 50, but it doesn't really matter. Stench will put its effective AC at 14, which won't make any difference. Regardless of whether you let it have defensive CR 1/2, it's CR 1.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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I think a part of the "calculated according to the rules in the DMG." process that often gets completely ignored is the step in which one adjusts the CR up or down the scale after using it in play if it seems appropriate to do so.
It's not intended to be treated as hard math, especially when special features are part of the danger of a creature but aren't easily quantified in numbers.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
There were two reasons I created this thread.
The first reason was to create a place for me and people like me to share their recalculations of monsters' CRs.
The second reason was to stop bothering the moderators with homebrew monsters that have nothing but CR differentiating them from their namesakes.
I know about that last step, but I quite simply don't care. This isn't the thread for that. This also isn't the thread for that argument we've been having.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Sorry, didn't realize you were looking for an echo chamber-like experience for this thread. I'll keep my opinions out of this public discussion space from this point forward.
Thank you.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
So my big question (and it puzzles me every time I design an encounter for my players) - spell casters and figuring out their average damage per round.
HOW. THE. HELL. DO. I. FIGURE. IT. OUT!?!
And then when some spells use saving throws that changes how you calculate vs. straight damage spells? I've always looked at backwards calculating monsters, and majority do seem to hot the mark but some are a little off.
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Getting back on topic, zombies.
For defense, they have 22 HP (CR 1/8), bumped up to 29 effective HP by Undead Fortitude (still CR 1/8), one immunity (not enough to trigger an increase, not that it would matter if it was); and AC 8 (you can't miss 'em (sorry, I just had to do that pun)) and one saving throw (not enough for an increase in effective AC), putting their defensive CR at a whopping 0, and that's only because there's no such thing as negative CR; if there was such a thing as negative CR, the zombie's defensive CR would be negative.
Now, you might be thinking that surely, surely they have some really nasty attack, or a damaging aura, or an absurdly high attack bonus, or at least Multiattack. They don't. Just 1d6+1 at +3 to hit, for offensive CR 1/4.
Offensive CR 1/4 and defensive CR 0 put the D&D 5e zombie at CR 1/8. Try giving them two attacks per action, or maybe some natural armor.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I think the issue with the zombie is that Undead Fortitude is undervalued. Maybe I'm just abnormally lucky, but I've seen it add a lot more staying power on average than another 7 hp would - without someone in the party dealing radiant damage, I've seen zombies get as many as 5 extra turns before being destroyed because of Undead Fortitude.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)