Witchbolt is designed for casters that have very few spell slots and routinely upcast. It works GREAT at 1st level for all, as they have few slots. But it is an IDEAL spell for a warlock, that only get 4 spell slots ever, and always upcast. Warlocks can reasonably keep this spell at least till 9th level, possibly all the way till 20th.
Consider a 9th level warlock. They can cast 2 spells cast at 5th level slot between short rests. If they cast Witchbolt and hit, they get 5d12 for upto 10 rounds. All they have to do is stay within 30ft of the target and they crush a single target.
For a Warlock, the only other hp reducing 5th level spells are Enervation, Synaptic Shock and Negative Energy Flood. Enervation is similar to it but does less damage, instead healing you, Synaptic Shock is 5d12 for ONE round plus a party buff, the other is an area effect that on a failed save does 8d6 spell (less damage) plus a debuff. Clearly for a single target, Witchbolt is the superior spell.
For a Wizard or Sorcerer they have better options (Animate Objects).
Witch bolt is one of the better Warlock attack spells, but does not really compare that well with non-warlock options.
As for the actions requirement, it is clear to me that the spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. That clearly does not apply to bonus actions, and I can see a viable argument for not counting for the 'haste' action, because the haste action is not a real action. Real actions let you cast spells, the Haste action only lets you "one weapon attack only, Dash, Disengage, Hide or Use an Object. That does not include "concentrate on Witch bolt' so it should not count as a real action and should not disrupt the Witch bolt.
Well, theoretically one could argue that “your action” is the action that you innately generate yourself, whereas if something else grants you “an action” you can use it, but it isn’t really “yours.”
I've never heard one argue that (and I have seen a lot of weird arguments), but I think one would be wrong if they did.
just a reminder that only the initial damage changes on up-casting.
I think the ideal use of this spell is a level 1 or 2 caster who is trying to do the most damage they can with their 2-3 slots (which, again, is only a good use of slots if you’re trying to do blasting with them).
As an addendum to the Action Surge conversation, Haste also gives it's target an additional action. That action is specifically limited by the spell and would cause Witch Bolt to end.
I know I might be a bit behind on this conversation but I want to point something out. Witchbolt would not break from Haste or from Action Surge. It's requirement is that you use your action to activate it each turn, It however does not in any way say that all actions that you earn in that turn must be used to activate Witchbolt. So while it is potentially RaW (because of lack of clarification) that you could potentially tap it multiple times even if it is perhaps not RaI.
The Issue of Haste and Action Surge because they are not called out as being required to use your action on Witchbolt and in the case of haste you actually can't (Which mind you the spells specifics do not actually counter and cause problems with this). It is by RaW that the extra action gained by Haste or Action Surge that they would be used in the way that Haste and Action Surge dictate and not by how Witchbolt Dictates. Meaning with these extra turns you could make attacks and the like or in the case of Action Surge just about anything you want that is an acceptable move with your action in that turn. RaI does not seem to actually counteract this either since Witchbolt only speaks about requiring your single main action not additional gained actions or other kinds of actions such as BA or movement.
As for your second post, you forgot about Toll the Dead
Gonna stop you right here. I did not forget Toll of the Dead. It is the only other Cantrip that does (potentially 1d12) damage and it is mentioned in my post because it is the Divine Spell. This means that it does not apply to anyone that can take witchbolt under normal circumstances except for maybe one subclass of Sorcerer (or possibly a Warlock I'm forgetting). Toll of the Dead and Witchbolt should also be used under entirely different circumstances because how they work. Toll of the Dead is a save spell. It's best used against Hi AC (and prefferably low save) targets so that you do not have to risk the higher chance to miss on those targets. It also has the benefit that it does not require the initial spell slot. It's downsides are that it's one of the most common saves and some classes even get automatic proficiency in that save on top of focusing in it for their class, it deals less damage against uninjured targets, and It is slow to upscale (with the caveat it's upscaling is permanent).
Eldritch Blast is a specialty spell. It's hard to get your hands on for most casters and any caster that is not a warlock is not going to be able to achieve it's fullest possible potential because they won't have access to class abilities that improve it. Though as an Attack spell it will gain improvement from Spell Sniper the same as Witchbolt. As a specialty pick for general purpose value Eldritch Blast is probably the better pick. For something besides a warlock, Particularly something that can improve Witchbolts damage potential the reverse tends to become true and for similar reasons and it has more feats that can modify it than Eldritch Blast does but I don't think that outweighs the easy of simply taking something in class to improve Witchbolt over a feat.
MM, has another advantage as well, each dart still counts as a separate hit, so that’s 3 potential Concentration Checks too.
MM is (and always has been) one of the greatest 1st-level spells of all time, right next to Burning Hands, Sleep, and Tasha’s Laughter.
I am not Denying that MM is great. I mention it in part because it is a high standard. And it's range is excellent for what it does as well. But MM also has an unfortunate fatal weakness that get's under utilized and forgotten. A Go too Defensive spell of Shield will stop it from doing any damage at all (though shield is under utilized in other ways too).
Oh Crap. Then I guyess it still sucks. At 5th level doing 5d12 + 1d12 per round is not worth it.
5th level of casting and 5th level of the character are two very different things. Do keep this in mind. 5th level for the character is only 3rd level of casting where the fun aoe spell start coming online. 3d12 damage for a single target is actually not bad at that level with many 3rd level spells hopefully doing more because they hopefully hit more than one person rather than doing more overall damage. With some of them doing a bit more consistant damage because they are d6's or d8's instead of d12's. And this is just talking about the initial turn of damage. The additional turns of 1d12 damage are conditionally worth it based upon a few factors such as resource management. Everybody jumps to the idea that cantrips are just better once they get to their first upcast step but they still require additional attack rolls on subsequent turns or saving throws to be made so their consistancy is a bit worse for the bonus of not costing resources to use. Also the majority of Cantrips are in the d6 to d8 damage range.
There are actually only 5 Cantrips that I am aware of in the game that are d10 or d12 in damage.
Poison spray is a d12, requires a con save and has a range of only 15ft. poison damage may or may not be an issue.
Toll the Dead is d12 (d8 against uninjured targets, requires a wisdom save, and a range of 100 feet. necrotic damage may or may not be an issue.
Firebolt is a d10, an attack roll, and a range of 120 feet
Eldritch blast, an attack roll (or even multiple attack rolls), and 120, one of the best damage types but limited on who can get it naturally
Primal Savagery, melee attack range, acid damage but I believe it's limited again in who gets it.
Some of these you may be in a position to do more damage with easily at character level 5 but they have individual drawbacks and advantages over witchbolt to take into account when your trading guaranteed lesser damage for the turn with more damage but it's not guaranteed and might have other limiting factors. With that in mind. It might not be a bad idea to drop witch bolt after the initial casting because within it's limitations it's still a nice single target damage spell for the spell level and potentially even the spell slot (The added benefit of this is that concentration is not really a restriction anymore if you choose to use it this way). But it is also something you can keep using for a few turns of guaranteed damage instead of relying on rolls to do more damage.
other than that. I just want to make a side note. "Your Action" is almost always written in places where things are expected to be used by things that will never normally get some kind of additional action on it's own and does not get the additional attack action feature. "An Action" is almost entirely found on things that get the additional attack action feature or they themselves are supplying the extra action or giving additional functionality past the normal options of what you can do with an action to give it unique functionality. Basically nothing in the wording actually takes into account for full spell casters to have extra actions. Even with the fact that at least half of them can cast Haste. And there is almost no wording anywhere that actually takes into account unique interactions available through multiclassing (outside of perhaps the multiclassing section itself which is pretty short and far from comprehensive).
As for your second post, you forgot about Toll the Dead
Gonna stop you right here. I did not forget Toll of the Dead. It is the only other Cantrip that does (potentially 1d12) damage and it is mentioned in my post because it is the Divine Spell. This means that it does not apply to anyone that can take witchbolt under normal circumstances except for maybe one subclass of Sorcerer (or possibly a Warlock I'm forgetting). Toll of the Dead and Witchbolt should also be used under entirely different circumstances because how they work. Toll of the Dead is a save spell. It's best used against Hi AC (and prefferably low save) targets so that you do not have to risk the higher chance to miss on those targets. It also has the benefit that it does not require the initial spell slot. It's downsides are that it's one of the most common saves and some classes even get automatic proficiency in that save on top of focusing in it for their class, it deals less damage against uninjured targets, and It is slow to upscale (with the caveat it's upscaling is permanent).
Eldritch Blast is a specialty spell. It's hard to get your hands on for most casters and any caster that is not a warlock is not going to be able to achieve it's fullest possible potential because they won't have access to class abilities that improve it. Though as an Attack spell it will gain improvement from Spell Sniper the same as Witchbolt. As a specialty pick for general purpose value Eldritch Blast is probably the better pick. For something besides a warlock, Particularly something that can improve Witchbolts damage potential the reverse tends to become true and for similar reasons and it has more feats that can modify it than Eldritch Blast does but I don't think that outweighs the easy of simply taking something in class to improve Witchbolt over a feat.
Toll the Dead is not a divine spell, it is available on all Clerics, all Warlocks, and all Wizards. Divine Soul Sorcerers do indeed have access to it as well. Witch Bolt is available on Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards (and by extension, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters). There is a lot of overlap between the two spells. While Toll the Dead is a save spell, Wisdom saves are among the best saves to target, particularly among High AC types and many larger creatures. The reason that I'm willing to compare Toll the Dead to Witch Bolt is because of the resource management angle of Witch Bolt, the comparable damage (particularly after the initial casting), and because one of the reasons why you might want to cast Witch Bolt is because of the guaranteed damage that you could get on a High AC target if that first attack lands (hopefully the first casting has advantage).
The initial damage will favor Witch Bolt, but the constraints of Witch Bolt do mean that the cost to keep that auto damage going might be higher than the superior range of Toll the Dead (60 ft, not 100 ft like you stated in a following post). The pressure to keep in range of the creature to maximize the spell slot can lead to choices that can get your d6 or d8 Hit Dice self into trouble. Lightning Damage might be less resisted than necrotic damage, but I don't think that there is that much difference to be troubled about it. The opportunity cost to cast Toll the Dead is less than the opportunity cost to cast Witch Bolt as it is only the action used and not the spell slot as well. A further complication is the opportunity cost of taking Witch Bolt to begin with, since Sorcerers and Warlocks don't get to choose a high number of spells to begin with. The number of cantrips that they can get is much better, particularly if the warlock decides to go with Pact of the Tome. A Warlock could very easily choose Eldritch Blast and Toll the Dead as their attacking cantrips and then fill out the rest of their options with utility, though warlocks of other pacts are likely to just use Eldritch Blast. Toll the Dead does have a higher action economy cost after the initial casting than Witch Bolt, due to the fact that even a -2 or -3 wisdom save creature can still make that save, but Toll doesn't require concentration, has double the range, and doesn't care if the creature goes behind total cover as long as you can see the creature when you cast it. Toll the Dead would be the better option in a white room scenario, but Witch Bolt can definitely be the better option in the field when tactics, terrain, and other factors come into play. Yes the initial damage of Witch Bolt can Scale, but that also means that you are using a higher spell slot to achieve that upscale. Witch Bolt does have the potential to crit, which Toll never will do.
Warlocks are a potential best fit with their limited spells slots that are always cast at their highest level, but many warlocks would probably prefer to cast Hex as their concentration spell, EB a creature to death with 1d10+3+1d6 (average of 12) per beam instead of dealing 1d12 per spell slot level (maximum of 6d12, average of 39 at 9th level when the EB can get an average of 24 with the same spell slot consumption and possibly surpassing Witch Bolt by the third round when Witch Bolt has done an average of 64 and EB could have done an average of 72). Even better, once the creature dies, the warlock can transfer the Hex to another creature and keep attacking while Witch Bolt is just done.
EB is also pertinent to the conversation as Warlock is 1/3 of the classes that can cast Witch Bolt. A Wizard isn't as likely to take Magic Initiate: Warlock, but a Sorcerer may choose to do so.
Oh Crap. Then I guyess it still sucks. At 5th level doing 5d12 + 1d12 per round is not worth it.
5th level of casting and 5th level of the character are two very different things. Do keep this in mind. 5th level for the character is only 3rd level of casting where the fun aoe spell start coming online. 3d12 damage for a single target is actually not bad at that level with many 3rd level spells hopefully doing more because they hopefully hit more than one person rather than doing more overall damage. With some of them doing a bit more consistant damage because they are d6's or d8's instead of d12's. And this is just talking about the initial turn of damage. The additional turns of 1d12 damage are conditionally worth it based upon a few factors such as resource management. Everybody jumps to the idea that cantrips are just better once they get to their first upcast step but they still require additional attack rolls on subsequent turns or saving throws to be made so their consistancy is a bit worse for the bonus of not costing resources to use. Also the majority of Cantrips are in the d6 to d8 damage range.
There are actually only 5 Cantrips that I am aware of in the game that are d10 or d12 in damage.
Poison spray is a d12, requires a con save and has a range of only 15ft. poison damage may or may not be an issue.
Toll the Dead is d12 (d8 against uninjured targets, requires a wisdom save, and a range of 100 feet. necrotic damage may or may not be an issue.
Firebolt is a d10, an attack roll, and a range of 120 feet
Eldritch blast, an attack roll (or even multiple attack rolls), and 120, one of the best damage types but limited on who can get it naturally
Primal Savagery, melee attack range, acid damage but I believe it's limited again in who gets it.
Some of these you may be in a position to do more damage with easily at character level 5 but they have individual drawbacks and advantages over witchbolt to take into account when your trading guaranteed lesser damage for the turn with more damage but it's not guaranteed and might have other limiting factors. With that in mind. It might not be a bad idea to drop witch bolt after the initial casting because within it's limitations it's still a nice single target damage spell for the spell level and potentially even the spell slot (The added benefit of this is that concentration is not really a restriction anymore if you choose to use it this way). But it is also something you can keep using for a few turns of guaranteed damage instead of relying on rolls to do more damage.
other than that. I just want to make a side note. "Your Action" is almost always written in places where things are expected to be used by things that will never normally get some kind of additional action on it's own and does not get the additional attack action feature. "An Action" is almost entirely found on things that get the additional attack action feature or they themselves are supplying the extra action or giving additional functionality past the normal options of what you can do with an action to give it unique functionality. Basically nothing in the wording actually takes into account for full spell casters to have extra actions. Even with the fact that at least half of them can cast Haste. And there is almost no wording anywhere that actually takes into account unique interactions available through multiclassing (outside of perhaps the multiclassing section itself which is pretty short and far from comprehensive).
The main reason that I brought up the Haste and Action Surge is because of the fact that it does mention using your action for something other than Witch Bolt and a DM could conceivably interpret that as being any action that you take. Ruling that the spell is only talking about the Action that every character has and not any additional actions that they might get for whatever reason is fine. That's part of the reason that you'll want to discuss how your DM will rule on the interaction, since they will be the one that is going to say "Yea" or "Nay".
Calling it a divine spell is my mistake. I only remember clerics having it and I forget sometimes that the lines between Divine and Arcane are actually very blurred at this point with more and more spells being able to be cast by both kinds of casters and not simply by mixed or atypical casters like Bards or special subclasses. Even Divine Soul isn't exactly as special as it was anymore with it's spell choices. It just does the mixing more easily. That is a habit that I'm trying to break. But i did reference it in the post even if I did not reference it correctly. (Edit: I've also only recently regained access to Xanathar's and it's sometimes hard to remember exactly what spell goes with every class at this point and I made the dumb mistake of not checking it's spell lists)
The 100 feet is because I had been typing 10's and 100's over and over again. My brain got stuck in the loop. That was my mistake yes. But the point remains the same whether it is 600 or 100 feet. it is longer than the basic witchbolt spell. However it is the same distance if for some reason you have Spell Sniper at only 60' which may be a factor for some people.
Wisdom is not necessarily the best save. Dexterity and Wisdom are the most common saves in the game and many players know this so they sometimes build with this in mind. On top of that a number of classes either primary or secondary in Wisdom for various reasons and several classes actually have proficiency in their saves. This can make a mediocre modifier in Wisdom better and a good modifier in wisdom hard to overcome much as high AC becomes harder to overcome for attack spells.
An Attack Spell is probably more likely to be useful against something like most druids and possibly some clerics for certain and may be better against many casters who's AC may be lower than their mental stats to overcome either from not being able to wear armor or not having their AC value as a high priority so they have less dex, or both. This is why it's good to have both attack spells and save spells on hand. Or forgoing that save spells that go after different save stats. it increases your probability of having a useful tool on hand because what you've deemed your normal tool may not be the best option for your resource economy. If an Attack Spell is the option then Witchbolt at low level can be a viable option, specially if your in a situation where your going to get followup automatic hits out of it because it eliminates misses at the cost of a bit of damage.
Witch Bolt and Toll of the Dead are better suited as Companion tools than considering them only as tools in opposition of each other because of the way they attack the enemy. They deal mostly the same damage but the way they attack is very different. They are also better as companion tools than as viewing them as opposing each other because they do not take up the same spaces in your kit. Witch Bolt is a level one spell and takes spell slots to cast and works against your spells known. Toll of the Dead on the other hand instead of a resource cost of a spell slot comes from an even more limited and basically static pool of cantrips that hardly changes over the lifetime of the character. Cantrips can't even be changed out from level to level like the Sorcerer's spell slot spells or by the Warlock with their similar ability. This makes how you pick them a lot different and what they compete with for value different.
Wizard's, Warlocks, and Sorcerer's are all going to place different values on spells for their spell slots (and sometimes their cantrips) based on different factors as well. Subclass is going to affect their choices for all of them but in some ways is most important for Sorcerer's because they have the most elemental based Subclasses that there are and thus spells that match those elements are going to carry additional weight because of the functions of the subclass. A Storm Sorcerer is going to pick spells that are rather different from what a Fire Draconic Sorcerer is going to pick which is going to be different from what a Divine Soul picks. They are going to do this because for the Storm Sorcerer once they reach level 6 doing a minor AoE over 1/3 the default distance of that Witchbolt can be very valuable. But at that same exact level that Draconic Sorcerer is going to get far better results out of the burning hands spell. But that Divine Soul might decide that Magic Missile or some defensive spell is going to serve them best because they already have cure wounds or there is another healer in the party and they are going to proc their level 6 ability just by being close to the person rolling the dice for healing since the power doesn't actually require them to have cast whatever healing spell they are actually enhancing. Wizards are going to pick by subclass but at the same time they can easily get into the position of "I have too many spells to choose from" rather than only a very small handful. And Warlocks spell choices often depend on the role of their pact and patron and where they find themselves most in combat. With certain spells being better if they find themselves much more up in melee range and others if they are always at a distance and then they are still going to default to Eldritch Blast at least half the time if not more because that's probably what they've invested their class focus in (most do it seems like). Warlocks heavy reliance on Eldritch Blast which is why I would consider Witchbolt actually a poor choice for them and probably why I couldn't remember that it had been added to their spell list (truthfully it's hard for me to remember most any true attack spell on their list because they are few and far between or specific to certain patrons, though I do remember where they have utility and defensive spells that do incorporate a fair bit of damage like Armor of Agathys or hunger of Hadar.) Pact of the Tome is just about the only form of Warlock that's truely flush with options in this discussion but half of that discussion revolves around rating the viability of the Cantrips against each other more than a spell like Witchbolt. Witchbolt's true comparison for them is really directly against Eldritch Blast over anything else because Eldritch Blast is pretty much always be the best choice out of the cantrips that function in a similar way by having the same striking condition. But I'm also not argueing for Witchbolt to be considered "Perfect" or "Best in Slot". Just for People to realize that it's viable and more useful than the popular mentality that is given to it. Viable and useful things give us a lot more variety and a lot more options to do something interesting or do something well (just to day in fact Dungeon Dudes chose to double down on their low opinion of the spell by outright putting up on the screen "Most spells are better than Witchbolt" just as an example).
One note of haste and such. I'm aware of why you brought it up. I just wanted to make light of the fact that there is no actual ruling of any kind in the book and it is literally all interpretation and in fact the book makes biases in how it uses certain terms within it based on arguable faulty assumptions by the creation team. While Haste would potentially be a problem if a DM ruled that any and all actions I had needed to be used in Witch Bolt. (Haste does have the conflict of being concentration so would have to be cast from another character or come from an item so it's also relatively moot.) I am not actually going to complain because that just means I have suddenly picked up a new niche reason to pick up 2 levels of fighter and up the usefulness of witchbolt because you actually up it's damage per turn by forcing all actions be focused on it and thus causing it to be capable to be multi-proc'd in a single turn making the second turn you are using it becomes a lot more powerful if you have your action surge available. But if they rule the other way then it's because then at least for one turn where you actually can cast another spell while still using witch bolt because activating it's ability is not actually casting a spell since that seems to be one of the big complaints against it.
One final note. Toll of the Dead does care if a creature goes behind total cover. Because Total cover makes them untargetable by the spell. Otherwise it doesn't change the whole conversation by much.
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect." Last paragraph of the Cover entry on page 196.
MM, has another advantage as well, each dart still counts as a separate hit, so that’s 3 potential Concentration Checks too.
MM is (and always has been) one of the greatest 1st-level spells of all time, right next to Burning Hands, Sleep, and Tasha’s Laughter.
I am not Denying that MM is great. I mention it in part because it is a high standard. And it's range is excellent for what it does as well. But MM also has an unfortunate fatal weakness that get's under utilized and forgotten. A Go too Defensive spell of Shield will stop it from doing any damage at all (though shield is under utilized in other ways too).
The only issue with Shield is that it’s a back pocket plan. It’s the thing you yoink out when you absolutely need the thing, kinda like Feather Fall in that regard. The issue with back pocket spells is that you constantly have to decide, do you keep that slot free for it, just in case, or do you spend it for something that might very well likely mean that you never need the back pocket spell?
Unless you’re an 18th level Wizard, then Shield is one of the two greatest spells of all time, the other being whatever you pick as your 2nd-level spell. 😉
MM, has another advantage as well, each dart still counts as a separate hit, so that’s 3 potential Concentration Checks too.
MM is (and always has been) one of the greatest 1st-level spells of all time, right next to Burning Hands, Sleep, and Tasha’s Laughter.
I am not Denying that MM is great. I mention it in part because it is a high standard. And it's range is excellent for what it does as well. But MM also has an unfortunate fatal weakness that get's under utilized and forgotten. A Go too Defensive spell of Shield will stop it from doing any damage at all (though shield is under utilized in other ways too).
The only issue with Shield is that it’s a back pocket plan. It’s the thing you yoink out when you absolutely need the thing, kinda like Feather Fall in that regard. The issue with back pocket spells is that you constantly have to decide, do you keep that slot free for it, just in case, or do you spend it for something that might very well likely mean that you never need the back pocket spell?
More often than not I find with these "back pocket spells" that the quetion isn't "Do I keep that slot open for (insert pocket spell here) or do I use it for something else". It seems to far more often end up being "Do I cast (insert pocket spell here) now or do I wait for a bigger reason to need it or another reason later on that I would want that spell slot for". Assuming that they even remember that they have it at all. Shield in itself is a great spell but it's value is in when and how you use it and Many people get caught up in trying to maximize that by using it at that perfect time if they aren't doing the exact opposite and not using something else in hopes that their perfect shield spell play is going to happen before they long rest.
Calling it a divine spell is my mistake. I only remember clerics having it and I forget sometimes that the lines between Divine and Arcane are actually very blurred at this point with more and more spells being able to be cast by both kinds of casters and not simply by mixed or atypical casters like Bards or special subclasses. Even Divine Soul isn't exactly as special as it was anymore with it's spell choices. It just does the mixing more easily. That is a habit that I'm trying to break. But i did reference it in the post even if I did not reference it correctly. (Edit: I've also only recently regained access to Xanathar's and it's sometimes hard to remember exactly what spell goes with every class at this point and I made the dumb mistake of not checking it's spell lists)
The 100 feet is because I had been typing 10's and 100's over and over again. My brain got stuck in the loop. That was my mistake yes. But the point remains the same whether it is 600 or 100 feet. it is longer than the basic witchbolt spell. However it is the same distance if for some reason you have Spell Sniper at only 60' which may be a factor for some people.
Wisdom is not necessarily the best save. Dexterity and Wisdom are the most common saves in the game and many players know this so they sometimes build with this in mind. On top of that a number of classes either primary or secondary in Wisdom for various reasons and several classes actually have proficiency in their saves. This can make a mediocre modifier in Wisdom better and a good modifier in wisdom hard to overcome much as high AC becomes harder to overcome for attack spells.
An Attack Spell is probably more likely to be useful against something like most druids and possibly some clerics for certain and may be better against many casters who's AC may be lower than their mental stats to overcome either from not being able to wear armor or not having their AC value as a high priority so they have less dex, or both. This is why it's good to have both attack spells and save spells on hand. Or forgoing that save spells that go after different save stats. it increases your probability of having a useful tool on hand because what you've deemed your normal tool may not be the best option for your resource economy. If an Attack Spell is the option then Witchbolt at low level can be a viable option, specially if your in a situation where your going to get followup automatic hits out of it because it eliminates misses at the cost of a bit of damage.
Witch Bolt and Toll of the Dead are better suited as Companion tools than considering them only as tools in opposition of each other because of the way they attack the enemy. They deal mostly the same damage but the way they attack is very different. They are also better as companion tools than as viewing them as opposing each other because they do not take up the same spaces in your kit. Witch Bolt is a level one spell and takes spell slots to cast and works against your spells known. Toll of the Dead on the other hand instead of a resource cost of a spell slot comes from an even more limited and basically static pool of cantrips that hardly changes over the lifetime of the character. Cantrips can't even be changed out from level to level like the Sorcerer's spell slot spells or by the Warlock with their similar ability. This makes how you pick them a lot different and what they compete with for value different.
Wizard's, Warlocks, and Sorcerer's are all going to place different values on spells for their spell slots (and sometimes their cantrips) based on different factors as well. Subclass is going to affect their choices for all of them but in some ways is most important for Sorcerer's because they have the most elemental based Subclasses that there are and thus spells that match those elements are going to carry additional weight because of the functions of the subclass. A Storm Sorcerer is going to pick spells that are rather different from what a Fire Draconic Sorcerer is going to pick which is going to be different from what a Divine Soul picks. They are going to do this because for the Storm Sorcerer once they reach level 6 doing a minor AoE over 1/3 the default distance of that Witchbolt can be very valuable. But at that same exact level that Draconic Sorcerer is going to get far better results out of the burning hands spell. But that Divine Soul might decide that Magic Missile or some defensive spell is going to serve them best because they already have cure wounds or there is another healer in the party and they are going to proc their level 6 ability just by being close to the person rolling the dice for healing since the power doesn't actually require them to have cast whatever healing spell they are actually enhancing. Wizards are going to pick by subclass but at the same time they can easily get into the position of "I have too many spells to choose from" rather than only a very small handful. And Warlocks spell choices often depend on the role of their pact and patron and where they find themselves most in combat. With certain spells being better if they find themselves much more up in melee range and others if they are always at a distance and then they are still going to default to Eldritch Blast at least half the time if not more because that's probably what they've invested their class focus in (most do it seems like). Warlocks heavy reliance on Eldritch Blast which is why I would consider Witchbolt actually a poor choice for them and probably why I couldn't remember that it had been added to their spell list (truthfully it's hard for me to remember most any true attack spell on their list because they are few and far between or specific to certain patrons, though I do remember where they have utility and defensive spells that do incorporate a fair bit of damage like Armor of Agathys or hunger of Hadar.) Pact of the Tome is just about the only form of Warlock that's truely flush with options in this discussion but half of that discussion revolves around rating the viability of the Cantrips against each other more than a spell like Witchbolt. Witchbolt's true comparison for them is really directly against Eldritch Blast over anything else because Eldritch Blast is pretty much always be the best choice out of the cantrips that function in a similar way by having the same striking condition. But I'm also not argueing for Witchbolt to be considered "Perfect" or "Best in Slot". Just for People to realize that it's viable and more useful than the popular mentality that is given to it. Viable and useful things give us a lot more variety and a lot more options to do something interesting or do something well (just to day in fact Dungeon Dudes chose to double down on their low opinion of the spell by outright putting up on the screen "Most spells are better than Witchbolt" just as an example).
One note of haste and such. I'm aware of why you brought it up. I just wanted to make light of the fact that there is no actual ruling of any kind in the book and it is literally all interpretation and in fact the book makes biases in how it uses certain terms within it based on arguable faulty assumptions by the creation team. While Haste would potentially be a problem if a DM ruled that any and all actions I had needed to be used in Witch Bolt. (Haste does have the conflict of being concentration so would have to be cast from another character or come from an item so it's also relatively moot.) I am not actually going to complain because that just means I have suddenly picked up a new niche reason to pick up 2 levels of fighter and up the usefulness of witchbolt because you actually up it's damage per turn by forcing all actions be focused on it and thus causing it to be capable to be multi-proc'd in a single turn making the second turn you are using it becomes a lot more powerful if you have your action surge available. But if they rule the other way then it's because then at least for one turn where you actually can cast another spell while still using witch bolt because activating it's ability is not actually casting a spell since that seems to be one of the big complaints against it.
One final note. Toll of the Dead does care if a creature goes behind total cover. Because Total cover makes them untargetable by the spell. Otherwise it doesn't change the whole conversation by much.
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect." Last paragraph of the Cover entry on page 196.
I think that we're pretty close on what we're trying to accomplish and I think that our discussion has helped each other to elaborate a bit more what it is we wanted to get across.
As I said, Witch Bolt can be a great option in the right parties. It mainly suffers from the white room comparisons. When you can't count on what your party will be able to do, it's value will go down. If you know that your party will employ tactics to keep the creature in range, to help shield you from other enemies or attacks, and aid you in landing the first attack, then it gains additional value. Knowing that your cleric prefers Bless over Bane or that your bard likes to cast Faerie Fire can help you feel more confident in being able to land the spell.
Different builds will certainly choose to emphasize different things. But even among those choices, there are a range of choices that could be better suited to what the player wants to do. A Storm Sorcerer looks for lightning and thunder spells, and Witch Bolt fits in that thematically. But the actual casting is what their 6th level ability cares about and not the automatic damage trips after. As such, the sorcerer may choose Thunderwave or Shatter instead. However, Witch Bolt may be preferable to Thunderwave because it is single target and 1st level while keeping Shatter for the AOE. Of course, Sorcerers can Quicken a spell and activate Witch Bolt on the same turn.
As far as Toll and cover, I did say that it doesn't care about it as long as the caster can see the creature when it tries to cast the spell. If a creature goes behind a pillar that grants full cover while repositioning but finishes its turn in view or close enough that the character can move into view, the character can cast Toll the Dead. That same scenario would cause Witch Bolt to fail.
I do think that Witch Bolt suffers because the extra damage doesn't scale. I don't think that it would require a full d12 per spell slot for it to be better, perhaps a d12 every other spell slot above 1st or a d6 or d8. Still, it can be useful as is in the right circumstances and fun with the right expectations.
Edit: As for saves, I'm not making this discussion from the viewpoint of a DM and I'm not big on PVP so I don't consider player options when evaluating character options or giving advice. That's part of the reason that I'm not thinking of Wisdom saves as being a terrible option. Dexterity and Constitution are much more commonly resisted among Monster Manual creatures and the number of Charisma or Intelligence Save cantrips aren't high. Strength is likely to be a problem for High AC types (certainly not always).
I've played in enough groups where the DM's tweak things to make things harder or practically make whole characters for their bosses and such which is part of where I am coming from when talking about saves. And there are monstrous races and things that can have classes applied to them. Several actually mention this possibility although some of them have their own unique class-like variants as well. So I'm not necessarily talking about PVP when I consider such things.
Thunderwave is not bad but it does have unwritten concerns. Like hitting and knocking your own party members around but like most spells of it's kind it's very short range. Might be shorter range than a Sorcerer might be comfortable with. So it certainly has it's pro's and cons as well. Shatter has the advantage over it of being much easier to position it for usefulness but it is a 2nd level spell. That being Said. i would probably consider taking shatter anyway, at least for a few levels reguardless of whether I chose Thunderwave or Witchbolt. I'd almost consider Shatter the upgrade to Thunderwave and a likely replacement at the very least if not wait to just pick up Shatter anyway.
Okay I'm gonna bump this thread because I have run into an impasse with the wording.
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.
At Higher Levels.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.
So from everything in this thread I understand the basics of Witch Bolt. But I am looking for an opinion on the phrasing here. Primarily "forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target".
1. Does this mean that if you have an enemy at 15ft and on directly behind them at 30ft, could you hit both with Witch Bolt.
2. (if the above is true) Could you be able to hit both targets with 1d12 *initial* damage (more with a higher spell slot or crit)
3. (if the above is true) Would you be able to use an action and hit both targets with 1d12 damage.
Because in theory you could line 2 enemies up and deal some serious damage (for example with an Eldritch Knight that can take some hits, thus making you able to move forward to secure the opportunity for collateral damage)
Okay I'm gonna bump this thread because I have run into an impasse with the wording.
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.
At Higher Levels.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.
So from everything in this thread I understand the basics of Witch Bolt. But I am looking for an opinion on the phrasing here. Primarily "forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target".
1. Does this mean that if you have an enemy at 15ft and on directly behind them at 30ft, could you hit both with Witch Bolt.
2. (if the above is true) Could you be able to hit both targets with 1d12 *initial* damage (more with a higher spell slot or crit)
3. (if the above is true) Would you be able to use an action and hit both targets with 1d12 damage.
Because in theory you could line 2 enemies up and deal some serious damage (for example with an Eldritch Knight that can take some hits, thus making you able to move forward to secure the opportunity for collateral damage)
1. No. The spell does what it says it does. It only mentions affecting one target.
2. No. the spell does what it says it does.
3. No. the spell does wha... do you see where I'm going with this?
Does this mean that if you have an enemy at 15ft and on directly behind them at 30ft, could you hit both with Witch Bolt.
No. The "sustained arc of lightning" is flavour text. If you could hit creatures between you and the target - it would have to say so.
Exactly this. It's mostly flavor. A flavorful Contextual way to say thta the spell is still going on and one person is the target and the other is casting the spell.
And remember. Even if a person was in between. They only count as partial cover, and not full cover. You still have the ability to see and hit the person behind them. So when you keyed off the power you'd hit the one behind while missing the cover (that extra body) closer to you. But that's a part of cover that is often ignored and/or misunderstood.
In a way, you are describing something along the lines of Chain Lightning
In a way yes. But if you really look through spells closely you can find a lot of ways that higher level spells such as chain lightning or even fireball actually build off of lower level spells. The fog/cloud spells are the most obvious about this. But you can kind of see in several of them how they go up in level. Either adding new features, Damage components, or duration to what has come before to make more powerful and more creative or intricate spells in many cases. Which fits right along with the age old ideas of arcane wizardly magic. Which the wizards were doing long before sorcerer's and Warlocks and such for a thing. Sorcerer's and Warlocks are actually offshoots of specific instances of variation on the learned magic and growing understanding of the philosophy and mechanics of creating spells learned through long hours of study, experimentation, and repitition.
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Witchbolt is designed for casters that have very few spell slots and routinely upcast. It works GREAT at 1st level for all, as they have few slots. But it is an IDEAL spell for a warlock, that only get 4 spell slots ever, and always upcast. Warlocks can reasonably keep this spell at least till 9th level, possibly all the way till 20th.
Consider a 9th level warlock. They can cast 2 spells cast at 5th level slot between short rests. If they cast Witchbolt and hit, they get 5d12 for upto 10 rounds. All they have to do is stay within 30ft of the target and they crush a single target.
For a Warlock, the only other hp reducing 5th level spells are Enervation, Synaptic Shock and Negative Energy Flood. Enervation is similar to it but does less damage, instead healing you, Synaptic Shock is 5d12 for ONE round plus a party buff, the other is an area effect that on a failed save does 8d6 spell (less damage) plus a debuff. Clearly for a single target, Witchbolt is the superior spell.
For a Wizard or Sorcerer they have better options (Animate Objects).
Witch bolt is one of the better Warlock attack spells, but does not really compare that well with non-warlock options.
As for the actions requirement, it is clear to me that the spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. That clearly does not apply to bonus actions, and I can see a viable argument for not counting for the 'haste' action, because the haste action is not a real action. Real actions let you cast spells, the Haste action only lets you "one weapon attack only, Dash, Disengage, Hide or Use an Object. That does not include "concentrate on Witch bolt' so it should not count as a real action and should not disrupt the Witch bolt.
Besides, as other said, it is not an OP spell.
I don’t disagree.
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just a reminder that only the initial damage changes on up-casting.
I think the ideal use of this spell is a level 1 or 2 caster who is trying to do the most damage they can with their 2-3 slots (which, again, is only a good use of slots if you’re trying to do blasting with them).
Like Wolf said - this is all wrong. Only the initial damage of Witch Bolt gets upscaled. All damage after the first round it was cast does 1d12.
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Oh Crap. Then I guyess it still sucks. At 5th level doing 5d12 + 1d12 per round is not worth it.
Gonna stop you right here. I did not forget Toll of the Dead. It is the only other Cantrip that does (potentially 1d12) damage and it is mentioned in my post because it is the Divine Spell. This means that it does not apply to anyone that can take witchbolt under normal circumstances except for maybe one subclass of Sorcerer (or possibly a Warlock I'm forgetting). Toll of the Dead and Witchbolt should also be used under entirely different circumstances because how they work. Toll of the Dead is a save spell. It's best used against Hi AC (and prefferably low save) targets so that you do not have to risk the higher chance to miss on those targets. It also has the benefit that it does not require the initial spell slot. It's downsides are that it's one of the most common saves and some classes even get automatic proficiency in that save on top of focusing in it for their class, it deals less damage against uninjured targets, and It is slow to upscale (with the caveat it's upscaling is permanent).
Eldritch Blast is a specialty spell. It's hard to get your hands on for most casters and any caster that is not a warlock is not going to be able to achieve it's fullest possible potential because they won't have access to class abilities that improve it. Though as an Attack spell it will gain improvement from Spell Sniper the same as Witchbolt. As a specialty pick for general purpose value Eldritch Blast is probably the better pick. For something besides a warlock, Particularly something that can improve Witchbolts damage potential the reverse tends to become true and for similar reasons and it has more feats that can modify it than Eldritch Blast does but I don't think that outweighs the easy of simply taking something in class to improve Witchbolt over a feat.
I am not Denying that MM is great. I mention it in part because it is a high standard. And it's range is excellent for what it does as well. But MM also has an unfortunate fatal weakness that get's under utilized and forgotten. A Go too Defensive spell of Shield will stop it from doing any damage at all (though shield is under utilized in other ways too).
5th level of casting and 5th level of the character are two very different things. Do keep this in mind. 5th level for the character is only 3rd level of casting where the fun aoe spell start coming online. 3d12 damage for a single target is actually not bad at that level with many 3rd level spells hopefully doing more because they hopefully hit more than one person rather than doing more overall damage. With some of them doing a bit more consistant damage because they are d6's or d8's instead of d12's. And this is just talking about the initial turn of damage. The additional turns of 1d12 damage are conditionally worth it based upon a few factors such as resource management. Everybody jumps to the idea that cantrips are just better once they get to their first upcast step but they still require additional attack rolls on subsequent turns or saving throws to be made so their consistancy is a bit worse for the bonus of not costing resources to use. Also the majority of Cantrips are in the d6 to d8 damage range.
There are actually only 5 Cantrips that I am aware of in the game that are d10 or d12 in damage.
Poison spray is a d12, requires a con save and has a range of only 15ft. poison damage may or may not be an issue.
Toll the Dead is d12 (d8 against uninjured targets, requires a wisdom save, and a range of 100 feet. necrotic damage may or may not be an issue.
Firebolt is a d10, an attack roll, and a range of 120 feet
Eldritch blast, an attack roll (or even multiple attack rolls), and 120, one of the best damage types but limited on who can get it naturally
Primal Savagery, melee attack range, acid damage but I believe it's limited again in who gets it.
Some of these you may be in a position to do more damage with easily at character level 5 but they have individual drawbacks and advantages over witchbolt to take into account when your trading guaranteed lesser damage for the turn with more damage but it's not guaranteed and might have other limiting factors. With that in mind. It might not be a bad idea to drop witch bolt after the initial casting because within it's limitations it's still a nice single target damage spell for the spell level and potentially even the spell slot (The added benefit of this is that concentration is not really a restriction anymore if you choose to use it this way). But it is also something you can keep using for a few turns of guaranteed damage instead of relying on rolls to do more damage.
other than that. I just want to make a side note. "Your Action" is almost always written in places where things are expected to be used by things that will never normally get some kind of additional action on it's own and does not get the additional attack action feature. "An Action" is almost entirely found on things that get the additional attack action feature or they themselves are supplying the extra action or giving additional functionality past the normal options of what you can do with an action to give it unique functionality. Basically nothing in the wording actually takes into account for full spell casters to have extra actions. Even with the fact that at least half of them can cast Haste. And there is almost no wording anywhere that actually takes into account unique interactions available through multiclassing (outside of perhaps the multiclassing section itself which is pretty short and far from comprehensive).
Toll the Dead is not a divine spell, it is available on all Clerics, all Warlocks, and all Wizards. Divine Soul Sorcerers do indeed have access to it as well. Witch Bolt is available on Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards (and by extension, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters). There is a lot of overlap between the two spells. While Toll the Dead is a save spell, Wisdom saves are among the best saves to target, particularly among High AC types and many larger creatures. The reason that I'm willing to compare Toll the Dead to Witch Bolt is because of the resource management angle of Witch Bolt, the comparable damage (particularly after the initial casting), and because one of the reasons why you might want to cast Witch Bolt is because of the guaranteed damage that you could get on a High AC target if that first attack lands (hopefully the first casting has advantage).
The initial damage will favor Witch Bolt, but the constraints of Witch Bolt do mean that the cost to keep that auto damage going might be higher than the superior range of Toll the Dead (60 ft, not 100 ft like you stated in a following post). The pressure to keep in range of the creature to maximize the spell slot can lead to choices that can get your d6 or d8 Hit Dice self into trouble. Lightning Damage might be less resisted than necrotic damage, but I don't think that there is that much difference to be troubled about it. The opportunity cost to cast Toll the Dead is less than the opportunity cost to cast Witch Bolt as it is only the action used and not the spell slot as well. A further complication is the opportunity cost of taking Witch Bolt to begin with, since Sorcerers and Warlocks don't get to choose a high number of spells to begin with. The number of cantrips that they can get is much better, particularly if the warlock decides to go with Pact of the Tome. A Warlock could very easily choose Eldritch Blast and Toll the Dead as their attacking cantrips and then fill out the rest of their options with utility, though warlocks of other pacts are likely to just use Eldritch Blast. Toll the Dead does have a higher action economy cost after the initial casting than Witch Bolt, due to the fact that even a -2 or -3 wisdom save creature can still make that save, but Toll doesn't require concentration, has double the range, and doesn't care if the creature goes behind total cover as long as you can see the creature when you cast it. Toll the Dead would be the better option in a white room scenario, but Witch Bolt can definitely be the better option in the field when tactics, terrain, and other factors come into play. Yes the initial damage of Witch Bolt can Scale, but that also means that you are using a higher spell slot to achieve that upscale. Witch Bolt does have the potential to crit, which Toll never will do.
Warlocks are a potential best fit with their limited spells slots that are always cast at their highest level, but many warlocks would probably prefer to cast Hex as their concentration spell, EB a creature to death with 1d10+3+1d6 (average of 12) per beam instead of dealing 1d12 per spell slot level (maximum of 6d12, average of 39 at 9th level when the EB can get an average of 24 with the same spell slot consumption and possibly surpassing Witch Bolt by the third round when Witch Bolt has done an average of 64 and EB could have done an average of 72). Even better, once the creature dies, the warlock can transfer the Hex to another creature and keep attacking while Witch Bolt is just done.
EB is also pertinent to the conversation as Warlock is 1/3 of the classes that can cast Witch Bolt. A Wizard isn't as likely to take Magic Initiate: Warlock, but a Sorcerer may choose to do so.
The main reason that I brought up the Haste and Action Surge is because of the fact that it does mention using your action for something other than Witch Bolt and a DM could conceivably interpret that as being any action that you take. Ruling that the spell is only talking about the Action that every character has and not any additional actions that they might get for whatever reason is fine. That's part of the reason that you'll want to discuss how your DM will rule on the interaction, since they will be the one that is going to say "Yea" or "Nay".
Calling it a divine spell is my mistake. I only remember clerics having it and I forget sometimes that the lines between Divine and Arcane are actually very blurred at this point with more and more spells being able to be cast by both kinds of casters and not simply by mixed or atypical casters like Bards or special subclasses. Even Divine Soul isn't exactly as special as it was anymore with it's spell choices. It just does the mixing more easily. That is a habit that I'm trying to break. But i did reference it in the post even if I did not reference it correctly. (Edit: I've also only recently regained access to Xanathar's and it's sometimes hard to remember exactly what spell goes with every class at this point and I made the dumb mistake of not checking it's spell lists)
The 100 feet is because I had been typing 10's and 100's over and over again. My brain got stuck in the loop. That was my mistake yes. But the point remains the same whether it is 600 or 100 feet. it is longer than the basic witchbolt spell. However it is the same distance if for some reason you have Spell Sniper at only 60' which may be a factor for some people.
Wisdom is not necessarily the best save. Dexterity and Wisdom are the most common saves in the game and many players know this so they sometimes build with this in mind. On top of that a number of classes either primary or secondary in Wisdom for various reasons and several classes actually have proficiency in their saves. This can make a mediocre modifier in Wisdom better and a good modifier in wisdom hard to overcome much as high AC becomes harder to overcome for attack spells.
An Attack Spell is probably more likely to be useful against something like most druids and possibly some clerics for certain and may be better against many casters who's AC may be lower than their mental stats to overcome either from not being able to wear armor or not having their AC value as a high priority so they have less dex, or both. This is why it's good to have both attack spells and save spells on hand. Or forgoing that save spells that go after different save stats. it increases your probability of having a useful tool on hand because what you've deemed your normal tool may not be the best option for your resource economy. If an Attack Spell is the option then Witchbolt at low level can be a viable option, specially if your in a situation where your going to get followup automatic hits out of it because it eliminates misses at the cost of a bit of damage.
Witch Bolt and Toll of the Dead are better suited as Companion tools than considering them only as tools in opposition of each other because of the way they attack the enemy. They deal mostly the same damage but the way they attack is very different. They are also better as companion tools than as viewing them as opposing each other because they do not take up the same spaces in your kit. Witch Bolt is a level one spell and takes spell slots to cast and works against your spells known. Toll of the Dead on the other hand instead of a resource cost of a spell slot comes from an even more limited and basically static pool of cantrips that hardly changes over the lifetime of the character. Cantrips can't even be changed out from level to level like the Sorcerer's spell slot spells or by the Warlock with their similar ability. This makes how you pick them a lot different and what they compete with for value different.
Wizard's, Warlocks, and Sorcerer's are all going to place different values on spells for their spell slots (and sometimes their cantrips) based on different factors as well. Subclass is going to affect their choices for all of them but in some ways is most important for Sorcerer's because they have the most elemental based Subclasses that there are and thus spells that match those elements are going to carry additional weight because of the functions of the subclass. A Storm Sorcerer is going to pick spells that are rather different from what a Fire Draconic Sorcerer is going to pick which is going to be different from what a Divine Soul picks. They are going to do this because for the Storm Sorcerer once they reach level 6 doing a minor AoE over 1/3 the default distance of that Witchbolt can be very valuable. But at that same exact level that Draconic Sorcerer is going to get far better results out of the burning hands spell. But that Divine Soul might decide that Magic Missile or some defensive spell is going to serve them best because they already have cure wounds or there is another healer in the party and they are going to proc their level 6 ability just by being close to the person rolling the dice for healing since the power doesn't actually require them to have cast whatever healing spell they are actually enhancing. Wizards are going to pick by subclass but at the same time they can easily get into the position of "I have too many spells to choose from" rather than only a very small handful. And Warlocks spell choices often depend on the role of their pact and patron and where they find themselves most in combat. With certain spells being better if they find themselves much more up in melee range and others if they are always at a distance and then they are still going to default to Eldritch Blast at least half the time if not more because that's probably what they've invested their class focus in (most do it seems like). Warlocks heavy reliance on Eldritch Blast which is why I would consider Witchbolt actually a poor choice for them and probably why I couldn't remember that it had been added to their spell list (truthfully it's hard for me to remember most any true attack spell on their list because they are few and far between or specific to certain patrons, though I do remember where they have utility and defensive spells that do incorporate a fair bit of damage like Armor of Agathys or hunger of Hadar.) Pact of the Tome is just about the only form of Warlock that's truely flush with options in this discussion but half of that discussion revolves around rating the viability of the Cantrips against each other more than a spell like Witchbolt. Witchbolt's true comparison for them is really directly against Eldritch Blast over anything else because Eldritch Blast is pretty much always be the best choice out of the cantrips that function in a similar way by having the same striking condition. But I'm also not argueing for Witchbolt to be considered "Perfect" or "Best in Slot". Just for People to realize that it's viable and more useful than the popular mentality that is given to it. Viable and useful things give us a lot more variety and a lot more options to do something interesting or do something well (just to day in fact Dungeon Dudes chose to double down on their low opinion of the spell by outright putting up on the screen "Most spells are better than Witchbolt" just as an example).
One note of haste and such. I'm aware of why you brought it up. I just wanted to make light of the fact that there is no actual ruling of any kind in the book and it is literally all interpretation and in fact the book makes biases in how it uses certain terms within it based on arguable faulty assumptions by the creation team. While Haste would potentially be a problem if a DM ruled that any and all actions I had needed to be used in Witch Bolt. (Haste does have the conflict of being concentration so would have to be cast from another character or come from an item so it's also relatively moot.) I am not actually going to complain because that just means I have suddenly picked up a new niche reason to pick up 2 levels of fighter and up the usefulness of witchbolt because you actually up it's damage per turn by forcing all actions be focused on it and thus causing it to be capable to be multi-proc'd in a single turn making the second turn you are using it becomes a lot more powerful if you have your action surge available. But if they rule the other way then it's because then at least for one turn where you actually can cast another spell while still using witch bolt because activating it's ability is not actually casting a spell since that seems to be one of the big complaints against it.
One final note. Toll of the Dead does care if a creature goes behind total cover. Because Total cover makes them untargetable by the spell. Otherwise it doesn't change the whole conversation by much.
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect." Last paragraph of the Cover entry on page 196.
The only issue with Shield is that it’s a back pocket plan. It’s the thing you yoink out when you absolutely need the thing, kinda like Feather Fall in that regard. The issue with back pocket spells is that you constantly have to decide, do you keep that slot free for it, just in case, or do you spend it for something that might very well likely mean that you never need the back pocket spell?
Unless you’re an 18th level Wizard, then Shield is one of the two greatest spells of all time, the other being whatever you pick as your 2nd-level spell. 😉
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More often than not I find with these "back pocket spells" that the quetion isn't "Do I keep that slot open for (insert pocket spell here) or do I use it for something else". It seems to far more often end up being "Do I cast (insert pocket spell here) now or do I wait for a bigger reason to need it or another reason later on that I would want that spell slot for". Assuming that they even remember that they have it at all. Shield in itself is a great spell but it's value is in when and how you use it and Many people get caught up in trying to maximize that by using it at that perfect time if they aren't doing the exact opposite and not using something else in hopes that their perfect shield spell play is going to happen before they long rest.
I think that we're pretty close on what we're trying to accomplish and I think that our discussion has helped each other to elaborate a bit more what it is we wanted to get across.
As I said, Witch Bolt can be a great option in the right parties. It mainly suffers from the white room comparisons. When you can't count on what your party will be able to do, it's value will go down. If you know that your party will employ tactics to keep the creature in range, to help shield you from other enemies or attacks, and aid you in landing the first attack, then it gains additional value. Knowing that your cleric prefers Bless over Bane or that your bard likes to cast Faerie Fire can help you feel more confident in being able to land the spell.
Different builds will certainly choose to emphasize different things. But even among those choices, there are a range of choices that could be better suited to what the player wants to do. A Storm Sorcerer looks for lightning and thunder spells, and Witch Bolt fits in that thematically. But the actual casting is what their 6th level ability cares about and not the automatic damage trips after. As such, the sorcerer may choose Thunderwave or Shatter instead. However, Witch Bolt may be preferable to Thunderwave because it is single target and 1st level while keeping Shatter for the AOE. Of course, Sorcerers can Quicken a spell and activate Witch Bolt on the same turn.
As far as Toll and cover, I did say that it doesn't care about it as long as the caster can see the creature when it tries to cast the spell. If a creature goes behind a pillar that grants full cover while repositioning but finishes its turn in view or close enough that the character can move into view, the character can cast Toll the Dead. That same scenario would cause Witch Bolt to fail.
I do think that Witch Bolt suffers because the extra damage doesn't scale. I don't think that it would require a full d12 per spell slot for it to be better, perhaps a d12 every other spell slot above 1st or a d6 or d8. Still, it can be useful as is in the right circumstances and fun with the right expectations.
Edit: As for saves, I'm not making this discussion from the viewpoint of a DM and I'm not big on PVP so I don't consider player options when evaluating character options or giving advice. That's part of the reason that I'm not thinking of Wisdom saves as being a terrible option. Dexterity and Constitution are much more commonly resisted among Monster Manual creatures and the number of Charisma or Intelligence Save cantrips aren't high. Strength is likely to be a problem for High AC types (certainly not always).
I've played in enough groups where the DM's tweak things to make things harder or practically make whole characters for their bosses and such which is part of where I am coming from when talking about saves. And there are monstrous races and things that can have classes applied to them. Several actually mention this possibility although some of them have their own unique class-like variants as well. So I'm not necessarily talking about PVP when I consider such things.
Thunderwave is not bad but it does have unwritten concerns. Like hitting and knocking your own party members around but like most spells of it's kind it's very short range. Might be shorter range than a Sorcerer might be comfortable with. So it certainly has it's pro's and cons as well. Shatter has the advantage over it of being much easier to position it for usefulness but it is a 2nd level spell. That being Said. i would probably consider taking shatter anyway, at least for a few levels reguardless of whether I chose Thunderwave or Witchbolt. I'd almost consider Shatter the upgrade to Thunderwave and a likely replacement at the very least if not wait to just pick up Shatter anyway.
Okay I'm gonna bump this thread because I have run into an impasse with the wording.
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.
So from everything in this thread I understand the basics of Witch Bolt. But I am looking for an opinion on the phrasing here. Primarily "forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target".
1. Does this mean that if you have an enemy at 15ft and on directly behind them at 30ft, could you hit both with Witch Bolt.
2. (if the above is true) Could you be able to hit both targets with 1d12 *initial* damage (more with a higher spell slot or crit)
3. (if the above is true) Would you be able to use an action and hit both targets with 1d12 damage.
Because in theory you could line 2 enemies up and deal some serious damage (for example with an Eldritch Knight that can take some hits, thus making you able to move forward to secure the opportunity for collateral damage)
1. No. The spell does what it says it does. It only mentions affecting one target.
2. No. the spell does what it says it does.
3. No. the spell does wha... do you see where I'm going with this?
No. The "sustained arc of lightning" is flavour text. If you could hit creatures between you and the target - it would have to say so.
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Exactly this. It's mostly flavor. A flavorful Contextual way to say thta the spell is still going on and one person is the target and the other is casting the spell.
And remember. Even if a person was in between. They only count as partial cover, and not full cover. You still have the ability to see and hit the person behind them. So when you keyed off the power you'd hit the one behind while missing the cover (that extra body) closer to you. But that's a part of cover that is often ignored and/or misunderstood.
In a way, you are describing something along the lines of Chain Lightning
In a way yes. But if you really look through spells closely you can find a lot of ways that higher level spells such as chain lightning or even fireball actually build off of lower level spells. The fog/cloud spells are the most obvious about this. But you can kind of see in several of them how they go up in level. Either adding new features, Damage components, or duration to what has come before to make more powerful and more creative or intricate spells in many cases. Which fits right along with the age old ideas of arcane wizardly magic. Which the wizards were doing long before sorcerer's and Warlocks and such for a thing. Sorcerer's and Warlocks are actually offshoots of specific instances of variation on the learned magic and growing understanding of the philosophy and mechanics of creating spells learned through long hours of study, experimentation, and repitition.