so I made a character that is a Goliath, because of a racial feat it essentially doubles the carrying capacity and the amount the character can lift or push. I have two questions, is there a way for my dm to know around how much a creature/monster weighs, so I can know if I can lift them or push them? my character can lift 1080 lbs. and because its lifting or pushing what would happen if I wanted to say, push a creature against a wall, with the goal of crushing the creatures rib cage? my guess is its just up to my dm but what do y'all think? what would you say as a dm to a player who wanted to try to crush a creature knowing they can push over 1000lbs of weight?
I'd say that pushing someone against a wall would be a standard unarmed attack, 1+Str bonus damage. Your Goliath strength just makes it possible with larger foes.
The best mechanical descriptions of what you are asking about are grappling and shoving a creature. If you want to specifically do damage then RAW, a shove doesn't really give you this option but probably you could convince a DM to allow it to count as an unarmed strike, which may not make it worthwhile. Your powerful build doesn't really do anything for you in this respect; it doesn't even change the limitations on size of creatures you can grapple (RAW). In fact, powerful build doesn't have any effect on any attack roll mechanics, so I think it is meant to be an out of combat ability.
The best mechanical descriptions of what you are asking about are grappling and shoving a creature. If you want to specifically do damage then RAW, a shove doesn't really give you this option but probably you could convince a DM to allow it to count as an unarmed strike, which may not make it worthwhile. Your powerful build doesn't really do anything for you in this respect; it doesn't even change the limitations on size of creatures you can grapple (RAW). In fact, powerful build doesn't have any effect on any attack roll mechanics, so I think it is meant to be an out of combat ability.
Exactly. Powerful Build isn't meant to affect anything damage related. It's a ribbon ability that acknowledges the race has an overall increased ability to perform common tasks of manual labor.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
how much a creature/monster weighs, so I can know if I can lift them or push them?
The grappling and shoving rules do not refer to carrying capacity, because the authors of the game did not want to have to put a weight for every single monster in the books.
You can shove any monster (your size +1) or smaller. You can move it up to 5 feet or knock it prone. You can grapple any monster (your size +1) or smaller. You can take it with you when you move but this halves your speed.
so I made a character that is a Goliath, because of a racial feat it essentially doubles the carrying capacity and the amount the character can lift or push. I have two questions, is there a way for my dm to know around how much a creature/monster weighs, so I can know if I can lift them or push them? my character can lift 1080 lbs. and because its lifting or pushing what would happen if I wanted to say, push a creature against a wall, with the goal of crushing the creatures rib cage? my guess is its just up to my dm but what do y'all think? what would you say as a dm to a player who wanted to try to crush a creature knowing they can push over 1000lbs of weight?
Your best fiat of weird use here is to drag it, against its will, off a cliff.
Carrying capacity can be weaponized directly using printed rules without needing DM buy in, but only by grappling and flying or jumping, not by shoving creatures into obstacles. Chapter 8 of the Basic Rules describes falling as doing 1d6 per 10 feet of distance. Chapter 9 describes that a character is able to "drag" a grappled enemy with them when they move by paying one extra foot of movement per foot moved, and there's nothing describing any limitation to that being applied to jump or fly movement modes. Chapter 8 also describes high-jumping, which is "3 + your Strength modifier (minimum of 0 feet) if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance" (note that the Athlete feat will drop that 10 feet requirement to 5 feet). Jumping 8 feet and then dropping your grappled enemy at the apex isn't enough to guarantee 1d6 damage, but effects which increase your jump distance (such as Jump, Step of the Wind, or the like) may be enough to provide you a jump maximum up to your total movement. Again, you'll be paying double movement costs, so a regular character is going to be hard pressed to jump higher than 15 feet (1d6 of falling damage), but a Barbarian, Monk, some races (cough Tabaxi), or creatures with Mobile may be able to jump as high as 20, 30, or even higher with a proper setup!
Flying makes it much easier (cough Aarakocra), because then you just need to start flying straight up at half speed, for as many rounds as you'd like, pummeling them all the way until you decide to drop them. But in my honest opinion, the easier option is the more boring option, and miles-high supplexes are much more fun! For my own table, vertical distance you travel up to your speed as part of your movement (e.g., coming down off of a high jump, or using a jump to jump down off of a ledge) isn't falling, but involuntary vertical movement (e.g., being drug along with a jumper) is falling, meaning that you don't need to "drop" someone to supplex them. I think that that's RAI (otherwise you'd break your own ankles every time you high jumped over 10 feet), but even if your DM doesn't agree, supplexes are ironclad RAW as long as you release the grapple and drop the creature at the apex of your jump.
That is an interesting interpretation given that no monsters have reported weights. Since creature weights aren't really a thing, I'd take Greenstone_Walker's point this way: any creature you can grapple you can move while grappled. Grappling itself then provides the only condition for what you can move, and it is still unaffected by powerful build.
And if you are going to go down the route of trying to imply that a creature's weight matters for dragging it while grappled, then I don't think powerful build is all that effective. A powerful build character (dragging up to 1200lb with 20 str) couldn't even drag an average human under the effects of enlarge from enlarge/reduce (1320lb using the average from the height/weight table in PHB). That is probably a good estimate for the weight of a large size creature, so even with powerful build, you aren't making a character that can predictably drag large creatures. A character with powerful build should only be able to predictably drag medium creatures, which is what a character without that racial feature could already do.
Your push//drag/lift weight doubles each time that you increase a size category, but you more than double weight of a creature when increasing size category (8x when going from medium to large).
A Bugbear/Goliath/Orc/Loxodon/Centaur/Firbolg Totem (Bear) Barbarian can achieve a carrying capacity of 1200/drag of 2400 with no problem with no crazy shenanigans, which should be enough to lift large creatures like Bears, Cows, Horses, or anything smaller than that with no problem. It's about two or three times the carrying capacity of a horse or a wagon, or about the capacity of an elephant, for reference in the Equipment Section.
To step into the realm of the ridiculous (which is fine, if we're trying to theorycraft how to use Strength to great effect), being a Rune Knight (UA) or get Enlarge/Reduced or Enhance Abilityed each will double those numbers... under the effect of all three, and with Strength to +2 from the Rune Knight's Ice Rune first, we reach a total possible of 22 x 15 x 2 (Powerful Build) x 2 (Bear Totem) x 2 (Enhance Ability) x 2 (Large size from Rune Knight) x 2 (Enlarge/Reduce) = 10,560/21,120. Probably could be a bit more if you squeezed in another +2 strength from a mutagen, but I don't have the new Bloodhunter, so I'm not sure if that can be fit into the build like it used to be.
The Monster Manual may not provide weights for most creatures, but we do know weights for humanoids that are of PC races, so I don't see that that's a reason to handwaive this off as a useless trick. A regular carrying capacity of 1200 is a normal thing for a Powerful Build Bear Barbarian to hit, with plenty of room for a fighter multiclass and athletics, mobile, tavern brawler, etc. to make it work. The UA Class revisions make it even easier, but even with no UA, a pile driver is a viably quirky build.
So basically, what you're saying is in order to be sure that you can drag a large creature, you need not only powerful build but some other feature as well (or really any two capacity doubling features)? That was my point.
Why not just let the creature that has the large creature grappled move with it as it says in the text of grapple?
Because carrying capacity uses the same words “carry” or “drag” that the grapple section uses, suggesting that carrying or dragging a grappled creature is dependent on carrying capacity as normal. If you want to handwave that, sure it streamlines play, and the grapple rules don’t EXPLICITLY tell you that you’re still subject to the carrying capacity rules while carrying a grappled creature... but they also don’t say you DONT, so I’d argue that’s pretty clearly not RAI.
A powerful build character (600 carry) will have no problem supplexing most humanoids. A powerful build totem warrior will be able to suppler all humanoids, and a lot of large beasts and monsters. The other shenanigans just open up supplexing robots, huge things, small houses... fun, but unnecessary
Ok, and so you think it is the drag capacity that matters if you are trying to jump with enough force to carry something high enough to take fall damage? I don't really think that the movement speed rules were really intended to mix with the carrying capacity rules the way that you're implying.
No, I think that it is the carrying capacity that allows you to move your speed while carrying an enemy, and drag capacity that allows you to drag them at all if over carry capacity, but that regardless movement costs two feet per one foot of movement while grappling.
did you ever do wrestling in middle school/high school/ever?
its fairly easy to take someone down. To “grapple” them. It’s a WHOLE different game, to after doing that. Drag the resisting person around or push them around, into the position you want/need to pin them.
this is a very easy. Very real life. Very relatable scenario to exactly what’s being talked about.
The question isn't about that, it is about how much weight can you standing high jump with. I don't think you can jump half as high as normal while trying to "drag" a weight you can't even "carry." If you want to be pedantic about the fact that grapple uses "drag" or "carry" then we had better make sure we are using the correct one of those two when we talk about jumping with that weight. To lift something off of the ground and use your movement with that thing is carrying it, not dragging it into the air.
But it is also not worth arguing because to reliably "suplex" a large creature still requires this very friendly definition of "drag," some enhancement to the jump, and at least two (really should be three) weight category increase effects. If you want to build that many resources into weaponizing movement into 1-2d6 damage (depending on the jump enhancement, really), then, as you've said elsewhere, why should the DM say no?
Yes I agree, it has to be within your carry weight, not your drag weight. If you're over you're carry weight, up to your drag weight, you can only move up to 5 feet per round (and are going to be paying double movement costs while grappling). Sorry if I was unclear about that earlier..
A Centaur Totem Barbarian 6 with Tavern Brawler (18 str) can move 10, punch (d4+4+2), bonus grab, jump straight up... but your hooves are only going to get 7 feet up, not enough to do supplex damage. Also, with the Tiger totem taken at level 3, that would add 3 more feet of vertical jump height, normally a bad choice but maybe the best choice for this particular build at low levels, that would be enough for 10 feet, 1d6 damage. Each of those 10 feet costs us two feet of movement because we're grappling, but that does not reduce total jump distance possible, I think instead it just costs double movement points against our Speed movement points we have to play with, which we have plenty of room to afford. Release the grapple at the apex if you must (or, keep holding onto them, if your DM interprets involuntary vertical movement as falling), dropping your victim for 1d6 free damage, and they will fall Prone. Technically, we can arc them up over our head at the apex (high jump says that while you jump 3+str mod, you can "reach over your head" for an additional 1.5 x your height) to sneak 10 more feet of distance for another d6.... if that sounds cheesy, just remember that that's what you actually do in a supplex, so your DM may go for it. Use your final attack for another d4+4+2 with advantage. Total average damage, 21.
At this point, compared to a "normal" Barbarian using a Greatsword (2d6+4+2, x 2, avg 26), you're only doing about ~5 damage less per round than the greatsword build would do, but you're picking up advantage on your second attack of the round and providing it to anyone else in the party that will be attacking that target before they stand up, not entirely bad.
We need a way to start enhancing jump distance. Class options include Fighter-Champion 7 (+Str modifer to long jumps, not what we need), Rogue-Thief 3 (+Dex modifier to both types of jump if made running, maybe), or Monk 1 (for 1 ki point, double your jump distance for the whole round). Or, having taken Elk instead of Tiger at Barbarian 3 (let's retroactively do that now while discussing higher-level builds, though your DM may not let you retrain class features if you're leveling the character sequentially). Alternatively we could stick with Barbarian to 14 to get a Fly speed... but flying supplexes are boring, we want to jump with our maaaaassles not fly. There's also Jump, a 1st level spell available to Druids, Ranger, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Artificers, which doesn't require concentration and lasts an entire combat, perhaps our caster would be so kind as to learn that, we may find a Ring of Jumping or we could pick it up with Aberrant Dragonmark if needed. There's also Boots of Striding and Springing (note: these are practically mandatory if your DM is using the optional encumbrance rules).
I don't generally like advocating for builds that assume magic items, but these are both only "uncommon," and with those two items at level 6, increasing Speed with later levels becomes much more important than further multiplying/adding to our max jump distance. With these items, we would be jumping up to 90 feet in the air while raging as a Tiger totem, capped by total movement, or 63 feet in the air as an Elk totem, capped by total movement. Our total move is 50 Tiger/65 Elk, and it takes 10 feet of movement to not cut max jump distance in half, so we can reliably jump cap 40 feet up as a Tiger if we can take a 10 foot move first, or 45 feet standing, or 50 feet in the air as an Elk if we take a 10 foot move first, or 30 feet standing. While grappling, movement speed costs double as well, so we can jump 20 feet with a head start (2d6) as either totem, or 20 feet/10 feet standing as a Tiger/Elk. Not bad, that would bring us up closer to on-par with a Greatsword barbarian or even above it (though obviously, they could probably do some more optimization with two magic items and a feat), but it isn't crazy by any means.
At Barbarian 6, Tiger looked a little better, but that's going to change going forward so I'm just going to drop that and assume Elk. For our next levels, Monk kills three birds with one stone, increasing Speed, max jump distance, and unarmed strikes to boot. A centaur should have no problem starting with a 13 or 14 wisdom and some dex (I'd recommend 17/15/12/8/14/8 as starting centaur build for this character) to qualify for the multiclass. None of the subclasses are particularly relevant to what we're doing (unless your DM takes the position that you can use the Open Hand technique to push enemies further vertically while you're in mid-air?), but it would be nice to be able to hit 9th level and run up walls I guess? Anything between levels 5 and 11 is probably worth it, if we can fit it, to get better move speed and attack damage. Let's start with level 6 Open Hand, there's lots of good stuff there. Mobile is tempting, but +2 Strength is probably more essential overall. We now have a total move speed of 65 (80 while raging) and a base max jump of 72 height, attack with 1d6 Unarmed Strikes, and have 6 ki-worth of enhanced super jump rounds (160 Speed to spend, and 144 foot-high jumps) (which is most useful if our DM doesn't require us to drop grappled enemies to supplex them, but is still handy even if they do). There's no written cap on number of jumps you can take in a round, but if you over-exploit it your DM may frown, lets try to keep ourselves to two or fewer supplexes per round. A favorable attack rotation might look like:
Round 1: 1d6+5 punch (optionally, spend a Ki point to make it a DC 14 save against Stunned), Bonus grapple, standing jump of 30 feet + 10 feet arcing over our head, land to cause 4d6 damage and inflict prone. 1d6+5+2 punch with advantage. Total avg damage, 35.
Round 2: Rage (move speed 80), standing jump of 20 feet + 10 feet arcing over our head, land to cause 3d6 damage and inflict prone. Second standing jump of 20 feet + 10 foot arc over our head, land to cause 3d6 damage. 1d6+5+2 punch with advantage, 1d6+5+2 punch with advantage. Total avg damage, 42.
Round 3+: Step of the Wind, (move speed 160, max jump 144), standing jump of 40 feet + 10 foot snap to cause 5d6 damage and prone, second jump of 40 feet + 10 foot snap to cause 5d6 damage (or we could have just done one 80 foot jump for 9d6 if the DM is glaring), 1d6+5+2 punch with advantage, 1d6+5+2 punch with advantage. Total avg damage 56
It isn't really max jump height that is limiting us, it's having enough movement speed to jump our full cap instead of these 30-40 foot bunny hops. Two more levels of Barbarian or Monk would let us pick up Mobile or Athlete, but at level 12 we're also in a good position to pivot towards 8 levels of something else. 8 levels of Fighter would get us an extra feat to make up for leaving Monk and/or Barbarian at 6, and Battlemaster could potentially make our supplexes look a lot fancier like pro wrestling moves. Also, Action Surge! at level 2, for another boost to total move speed to jump with, seems too good to pass up. Rogue Scout 3 would let us do a mini-supplex as a reaction at the end of our enemy's turn, which would be hillarious, but its move speed buff is tantalizingly out of reach at 9... could try dropping Monk down to 5 for a net gain of +5 speed, but losing magical fists and the Open Hand's level 6 self-heal? And one more level of Rogue would be worth one more feat as well, though it would cost us a ki point and downgrade punches... If we go rogue, we're going to want to start wielding a dagger in one hand anyway, so losing magic fists is not a big deal. And, Rogue gets us Expertise in Athletics, sounds important. But that puts Figher's action surge out of reach unless Monk goes all the way down to 2, which just feels unacceptable. There are some speed buffs to be found in Ranger, but they're situational, and dont feel better than the Rogue or Fighter options.
Personally, I think that Barbarian 6/Monk 6/Rogue 4/Fighter 4 makes a lot of sense. It doesn't give us any class-based speed enhancements (other than Action Surge being used for Dash), but picking up Athlete and Mobile, we're now looking at: Strength 20 (default high jump of 8), Elk totem 3 (+15 speed while raging), Bear totem 6 (double carrying capacity up 1200 lbs), Speed of 75 (90 raging). Our jump distance is trippled from our Boots of Striding and Springing, trippled again when we're under the effects of Jump from our Ring of Jumping (or a helpful caster in the party, but with the Ring that should always be up during an adventuring day since it's an at-will non-concentration bonus action that lasts a whole minute), and doubled again whenever we use Step of the Wind with one of our 6 Ki points (72 normal max jump, 144 max jump with Step of the Wind). Dashing once (with Cunning Action or preferably Step of the Wind) gives us 150 or 180 movement points to play with (enough for 75/90 feet of jump height, 7d6/9d6), or using Action Surge to Action-dash gives us 225/270 total (enough for 112/135 jump height, 11d6/13d6). Our DM is on board with our build and not being a dick about lifting enemies over our heads, so we can snap our victim up over our head at the apex of each jump, which is either only +10 feet/1d6 on each jump. To be perfectly honest Athlete got us very little other than +1 Dex, because standing jumps are decently efficient when we're content doing 30-40 foot jumps, but it is generally to save us some bookkeeping headaches in edge use conditions. While we have to punch (1d6+Strength+Rage) to grab an opponent, we can then stab them with a dagger (1d6+Strength+Rage+Dueling) on subsequent attacks, often with advantage and Sneak Attack (2d6). And off-turn, we can do a mini-supplex at the end of our victim's rounds if they don't escape our grasp: 37/45 move speed available, which is only enough for a 1d6/2d6 jump unfortunately, +1d6 for arcing them over the top of our heads, but enough to ensure that they end their turn prone after falling so that our allies always have advantage no matter where they are in the initiative order.
A theoretical combat at 20 could progress like this, assuming you already have Jump up from your ring (no reason not to, it's an at-will Bonus Action all day long).
Round 1: Move up 5-15 feet (60-70 remaining), Punch (1d6+5), Bonus Grapple, Jump 20 (20-30 speed remaining), with an overhead snap (+10 ft) for 3d6 damage and inflict Prone, Stab with advantage (1d6+5+2+2d6). Standing Jump 10 again for another 2d6. Total average damage, 47.
Offturn 1: Enemy struggles against your might. When they end their turn, you do another Jump for 2d6 and re-inflict Prone. Average damage 7.
Round 2: Rage as a Bonus Action (90 move speed). Jump 20 + snap for 3d6, Jump 20 + snap for 3d6, Stab 1d6+5+2+2+2d6 with advantage, Stab 1d6+5+2+2 with advantage. Total average damage, 53.
Offturn 2: Enemy struggles. At end of their turn, Jump for 3d6 and re-inflict Prone. Average damage 10.
Round 3: Step of the Wind as a Bonus Action (180 move speed). Action Surge to fit in another Dash. (270 move speed, 135 grapple movement allowed). Jump 20 + snap six times and 10+ snap once (20d6), or bust it up into a more reasonable two 60 or 70-foot jumps (15d6). Stab twice with advantage, once with sneak attack. Total average damage, 84.5.
Woof, a lot of math, a lot of shennanigans... but at its core I think it would be a fun character to play. Some the UA Revised class stuff makes this a lot easier and more flexible to pull off, so this could be obsolete if that ever comes out, but even though this guy isn't going to build any DPR awards, I think it's a fun way to control and lock down a single opponent, and just about the only way I can think of to turn your own movement into damage, on your own turn and even on your enemy's .
Edit: I'm realizing, if you never get around to doing an over-70 foot supplex, the Monk's Step of the Wind doubling jump distance isn't actually ever doing anything. You could probably simplify this build mucho by just using Rogue to get Cunning Action dash to fill the same role, and just be a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue with more feats and higher Constitution. Lower opening punch damage, and lower speed until you hit Scout 9, but with higher sneak attacks it's probably better at 20. I think the Monk would be funner to play through from 6-12 though.
Because carrying capacity uses the same words “carry” or “drag” that the grapple section uses, suggesting that carrying or dragging a grappled creature is dependent on carrying capacity as normal. If you want to handwave that, sure it streamlines play, and the grapple rules don’t EXPLICITLY tell you that you’re still subject to the carrying capacity rules while carrying a grappled creature... but they also don’t say you DONT, so I’d argue that’s pretty clearly not RAI.
I see you making this argument frequently, but it is rarely valid. As officials often point out, a major component of the design philosophy for 5e is that the rules are written to tell you what you can do, and nothing more. When a rule tells you what you cannot do, or when it relies on another thing to function, it is generally written explicitly. There's nothing about carrying capacity in rules on grappling. There's nothing about grappling in the rules about carrying capacity. There is no direct relationship between carrying capacity/encumbrance and grappling.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
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so I made a character that is a Goliath, because of a racial feat it essentially doubles the carrying capacity and the amount the character can lift or push. I have two questions, is there a way for my dm to know around how much a creature/monster weighs, so I can know if I can lift them or push them? my character can lift 1080 lbs. and because its lifting or pushing what would happen if I wanted to say, push a creature against a wall, with the goal of crushing the creatures rib cage? my guess is its just up to my dm but what do y'all think? what would you say as a dm to a player who wanted to try to crush a creature knowing they can push over 1000lbs of weight?
I'd say that pushing someone against a wall would be a standard unarmed attack, 1+Str bonus damage. Your Goliath strength just makes it possible with larger foes.
The best mechanical descriptions of what you are asking about are grappling and shoving a creature. If you want to specifically do damage then RAW, a shove doesn't really give you this option but probably you could convince a DM to allow it to count as an unarmed strike, which may not make it worthwhile. Your powerful build doesn't really do anything for you in this respect; it doesn't even change the limitations on size of creatures you can grapple (RAW). In fact, powerful build doesn't have any effect on any attack roll mechanics, so I think it is meant to be an out of combat ability.
Better bet is to grapple it then toss if off a cliff.
Exactly. Powerful Build isn't meant to affect anything damage related. It's a ribbon ability that acknowledges the race has an overall increased ability to perform common tasks of manual labor.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The grappling and shoving rules do not refer to carrying capacity, because the authors of the game did not want to have to put a weight for every single monster in the books.
You can shove any monster (your size +1) or smaller. You can move it up to 5 feet or knock it prone.
You can grapple any monster (your size +1) or smaller. You can take it with you when you move but this halves your speed.
Your best fiat of weird use here is to drag it, against its will, off a cliff.
get some boots to fly with.
Blank
RAW that doesn't do much, just the standard shove/grapple/unarmed attack.
As a DM I'd probably make it do something better than that, that seems like a cool use of racial abilities.
Yeah, you have to go with grapple and unarmed attack.
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Carrying capacity can be weaponized directly using printed rules without needing DM buy in, but only by grappling and flying or jumping, not by shoving creatures into obstacles. Chapter 8 of the Basic Rules describes falling as doing 1d6 per 10 feet of distance. Chapter 9 describes that a character is able to "drag" a grappled enemy with them when they move by paying one extra foot of movement per foot moved, and there's nothing describing any limitation to that being applied to jump or fly movement modes. Chapter 8 also describes high-jumping, which is "3 + your Strength modifier (minimum of 0 feet) if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance" (note that the Athlete feat will drop that 10 feet requirement to 5 feet). Jumping 8 feet and then dropping your grappled enemy at the apex isn't enough to guarantee 1d6 damage, but effects which increase your jump distance (such as Jump, Step of the Wind, or the like) may be enough to provide you a jump maximum up to your total movement. Again, you'll be paying double movement costs, so a regular character is going to be hard pressed to jump higher than 15 feet (1d6 of falling damage), but a Barbarian, Monk, some races (cough Tabaxi), or creatures with Mobile may be able to jump as high as 20, 30, or even higher with a proper setup!
Flying makes it much easier (cough Aarakocra), because then you just need to start flying straight up at half speed, for as many rounds as you'd like, pummeling them all the way until you decide to drop them. But in my honest opinion, the easier option is the more boring option, and miles-high supplexes are much more fun! For my own table, vertical distance you travel up to your speed as part of your movement (e.g., coming down off of a high jump, or using a jump to jump down off of a ledge) isn't falling, but involuntary vertical movement (e.g., being drug along with a jumper) is falling, meaning that you don't need to "drop" someone to supplex them. I think that that's RAI (otherwise you'd break your own ankles every time you high jumped over 10 feet), but even if your DM doesn't agree, supplexes are ironclad RAW as long as you release the grapple and drop the creature at the apex of your jump.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
That is an interesting interpretation given that no monsters have reported weights. Since creature weights aren't really a thing, I'd take Greenstone_Walker's point this way: any creature you can grapple you can move while grappled. Grappling itself then provides the only condition for what you can move, and it is still unaffected by powerful build.
And if you are going to go down the route of trying to imply that a creature's weight matters for dragging it while grappled, then I don't think powerful build is all that effective. A powerful build character (dragging up to 1200lb with 20 str) couldn't even drag an average human under the effects of enlarge from enlarge/reduce (1320lb using the average from the height/weight table in PHB). That is probably a good estimate for the weight of a large size creature, so even with powerful build, you aren't making a character that can predictably drag large creatures. A character with powerful build should only be able to predictably drag medium creatures, which is what a character without that racial feature could already do.
Your push//drag/lift weight doubles each time that you increase a size category, but you more than double weight of a creature when increasing size category (8x when going from medium to large).
A Bugbear/Goliath/Orc/Loxodon/Centaur/Firbolg Totem (Bear) Barbarian can achieve a carrying capacity of 1200/drag of 2400 with no problem with no crazy shenanigans, which should be enough to lift large creatures like Bears, Cows, Horses, or anything smaller than that with no problem. It's about two or three times the carrying capacity of a horse or a wagon, or about the capacity of an elephant, for reference in the Equipment Section.
To step into the realm of the ridiculous (which is fine, if we're trying to theorycraft how to use Strength to great effect), being a Rune Knight (UA) or get Enlarge/Reduced or Enhance Abilityed each will double those numbers... under the effect of all three, and with Strength to +2 from the Rune Knight's Ice Rune first, we reach a total possible of 22 x 15 x 2 (Powerful Build) x 2 (Bear Totem) x 2 (Enhance Ability) x 2 (Large size from Rune Knight) x 2 (Enlarge/Reduce) = 10,560/21,120. Probably could be a bit more if you squeezed in another +2 strength from a mutagen, but I don't have the new Bloodhunter, so I'm not sure if that can be fit into the build like it used to be.
The Monster Manual may not provide weights for most creatures, but we do know weights for humanoids that are of PC races, so I don't see that that's a reason to handwaive this off as a useless trick. A regular carrying capacity of 1200 is a normal thing for a Powerful Build Bear Barbarian to hit, with plenty of room for a fighter multiclass and athletics, mobile, tavern brawler, etc. to make it work. The UA Class revisions make it even easier, but even with no UA, a pile driver is a viably quirky build.
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So basically, what you're saying is in order to be sure that you can drag a large creature, you need not only powerful build but some other feature as well (or really any two capacity doubling features)? That was my point.
Why not just let the creature that has the large creature grappled move with it as it says in the text of grapple?
Because carrying capacity uses the same words “carry” or “drag” that the grapple section uses, suggesting that carrying or dragging a grappled creature is dependent on carrying capacity as normal. If you want to handwave that, sure it streamlines play, and the grapple rules don’t EXPLICITLY tell you that you’re still subject to the carrying capacity rules while carrying a grappled creature... but they also don’t say you DONT, so I’d argue that’s pretty clearly not RAI.
A powerful build character (600 carry) will have no problem supplexing most humanoids. A powerful build totem warrior will be able to suppler all humanoids, and a lot of large beasts and monsters. The other shenanigans just open up supplexing robots, huge things, small houses... fun, but unnecessary
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Ok, and so you think it is the drag capacity that matters if you are trying to jump with enough force to carry something high enough to take fall damage? I don't really think that the movement speed rules were really intended to mix with the carrying capacity rules the way that you're implying.
No, I think that it is the carrying capacity that allows you to move your speed while carrying an enemy, and drag capacity that allows you to drag them at all if over carry capacity, but that regardless movement costs two feet per one foot of movement while grappling.
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Wolf.
did you ever do wrestling in middle school/high school/ever?
its fairly easy to take someone down. To “grapple” them. It’s a WHOLE different game, to after doing that. Drag the resisting person around or push them around, into the position you want/need to pin them.
this is a very easy. Very real life. Very relatable scenario to exactly what’s being talked about.
Blank
The question isn't about that, it is about how much weight can you standing high jump with. I don't think you can jump half as high as normal while trying to "drag" a weight you can't even "carry." If you want to be pedantic about the fact that grapple uses "drag" or "carry" then we had better make sure we are using the correct one of those two when we talk about jumping with that weight. To lift something off of the ground and use your movement with that thing is carrying it, not dragging it into the air.
But it is also not worth arguing because to reliably "suplex" a large creature still requires this very friendly definition of "drag," some enhancement to the jump, and at least two (really should be three) weight category increase effects. If you want to build that many resources into weaponizing movement into 1-2d6 damage (depending on the jump enhancement, really), then, as you've said elsewhere, why should the DM say no?
Yes I agree, it has to be within your carry weight, not your drag weight. If you're over you're carry weight, up to your drag weight, you can only move up to 5 feet per round (and are going to be paying double movement costs while grappling). Sorry if I was unclear about that earlier..
A Centaur Totem Barbarian 6 with Tavern Brawler (18 str) can move 10, punch (d4+4+2), bonus grab, jump straight up... but your hooves are only going to get 7 feet up, not enough to do supplex damage. Also, with the Tiger totem taken at level 3, that would add 3 more feet of vertical jump height, normally a bad choice but maybe the best choice for this particular build at low levels, that would be enough for 10 feet, 1d6 damage. Each of those 10 feet costs us two feet of movement because we're grappling, but that does not reduce total jump distance possible, I think instead it just costs double movement points against our Speed movement points we have to play with, which we have plenty of room to afford. Release the grapple at the apex if you must (or, keep holding onto them, if your DM interprets involuntary vertical movement as falling), dropping your victim for 1d6 free damage, and they will fall Prone. Technically, we can arc them up over our head at the apex (high jump says that while you jump 3+str mod, you can "reach over your head" for an additional 1.5 x your height) to sneak 10 more feet of distance for another d6.... if that sounds cheesy, just remember that that's what you actually do in a supplex, so your DM may go for it. Use your final attack for another d4+4+2 with advantage. Total average damage, 21.
At this point, compared to a "normal" Barbarian using a Greatsword (2d6+4+2, x 2, avg 26), you're only doing about ~5 damage less per round than the greatsword build would do, but you're picking up advantage on your second attack of the round and providing it to anyone else in the party that will be attacking that target before they stand up, not entirely bad.
We need a way to start enhancing jump distance. Class options include Fighter-Champion 7 (+Str modifer to long jumps, not what we need), Rogue-Thief 3 (+Dex modifier to both types of jump if made running, maybe), or Monk 1 (for 1 ki point, double your jump distance for the whole round). Or, having taken Elk instead of Tiger at Barbarian 3 (let's retroactively do that now while discussing higher-level builds, though your DM may not let you retrain class features if you're leveling the character sequentially). Alternatively we could stick with Barbarian to 14 to get a Fly speed... but flying supplexes are boring, we want to jump with our maaaaassles not fly. There's also Jump, a 1st level spell available to Druids, Ranger, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Artificers, which doesn't require concentration and lasts an entire combat, perhaps our caster would be so kind as to learn that, we may find a Ring of Jumping or we could pick it up with Aberrant Dragonmark if needed. There's also Boots of Striding and Springing (note: these are practically mandatory if your DM is using the optional encumbrance rules).
I don't generally like advocating for builds that assume magic items, but these are both only "uncommon," and with those two items at level 6, increasing Speed with later levels becomes much more important than further multiplying/adding to our max jump distance. With these items, we would be jumping up to 90 feet in the air while raging as a Tiger totem, capped by total movement, or 63 feet in the air as an Elk totem, capped by total movement. Our total move is 50 Tiger/65 Elk, and it takes 10 feet of movement to not cut max jump distance in half, so we can reliably jump cap 40 feet up as a Tiger if we can take a 10 foot move first, or 45 feet standing, or 50 feet in the air as an Elk if we take a 10 foot move first, or 30 feet standing. While grappling, movement speed costs double as well, so we can jump 20 feet with a head start (2d6) as either totem, or 20 feet/10 feet standing as a Tiger/Elk. Not bad, that would bring us up closer to on-par with a Greatsword barbarian or even above it (though obviously, they could probably do some more optimization with two magic items and a feat), but it isn't crazy by any means.
At Barbarian 6, Tiger looked a little better, but that's going to change going forward so I'm just going to drop that and assume Elk. For our next levels, Monk kills three birds with one stone, increasing Speed, max jump distance, and unarmed strikes to boot. A centaur should have no problem starting with a 13 or 14 wisdom and some dex (I'd recommend 17/15/12/8/14/8 as starting centaur build for this character) to qualify for the multiclass. None of the subclasses are particularly relevant to what we're doing (unless your DM takes the position that you can use the Open Hand technique to push enemies further vertically while you're in mid-air?), but it would be nice to be able to hit 9th level and run up walls I guess? Anything between levels 5 and 11 is probably worth it, if we can fit it, to get better move speed and attack damage. Let's start with level 6 Open Hand, there's lots of good stuff there. Mobile is tempting, but +2 Strength is probably more essential overall. We now have a total move speed of 65 (80 while raging) and a base max jump of 72 height, attack with 1d6 Unarmed Strikes, and have 6 ki-worth of enhanced super jump rounds (160 Speed to spend, and 144 foot-high jumps) (which is most useful if our DM doesn't require us to drop grappled enemies to supplex them, but is still handy even if they do). There's no written cap on number of jumps you can take in a round, but if you over-exploit it your DM may frown, lets try to keep ourselves to two or fewer supplexes per round. A favorable attack rotation might look like:
It isn't really max jump height that is limiting us, it's having enough movement speed to jump our full cap instead of these 30-40 foot bunny hops. Two more levels of Barbarian or Monk would let us pick up Mobile or Athlete, but at level 12 we're also in a good position to pivot towards 8 levels of something else. 8 levels of Fighter would get us an extra feat to make up for leaving Monk and/or Barbarian at 6, and Battlemaster could potentially make our supplexes look a lot fancier like pro wrestling moves. Also, Action Surge! at level 2, for another boost to total move speed to jump with, seems too good to pass up. Rogue Scout 3 would let us do a mini-supplex as a reaction at the end of our enemy's turn, which would be hillarious, but its move speed buff is tantalizingly out of reach at 9... could try dropping Monk down to 5 for a net gain of +5 speed, but losing magical fists and the Open Hand's level 6 self-heal? And one more level of Rogue would be worth one more feat as well, though it would cost us a ki point and downgrade punches... If we go rogue, we're going to want to start wielding a dagger in one hand anyway, so losing magic fists is not a big deal. And, Rogue gets us Expertise in Athletics, sounds important. But that puts Figher's action surge out of reach unless Monk goes all the way down to 2, which just feels unacceptable. There are some speed buffs to be found in Ranger, but they're situational, and dont feel better than the Rogue or Fighter options.
Personally, I think that Barbarian 6/Monk 6/Rogue 4/Fighter 4 makes a lot of sense. It doesn't give us any class-based speed enhancements (other than Action Surge being used for Dash), but picking up Athlete and Mobile, we're now looking at: Strength 20 (default high jump of 8), Elk totem 3 (+15 speed while raging), Bear totem 6 (double carrying capacity up 1200 lbs), Speed of 75 (90 raging). Our jump distance is trippled from our Boots of Striding and Springing, trippled again when we're under the effects of Jump from our Ring of Jumping (or a helpful caster in the party, but with the Ring that should always be up during an adventuring day since it's an at-will non-concentration bonus action that lasts a whole minute), and doubled again whenever we use Step of the Wind with one of our 6 Ki points (72 normal max jump, 144 max jump with Step of the Wind). Dashing once (with Cunning Action or preferably Step of the Wind) gives us 150 or 180 movement points to play with (enough for 75/90 feet of jump height, 7d6/9d6), or using Action Surge to Action-dash gives us 225/270 total (enough for 112/135 jump height, 11d6/13d6). Our DM is on board with our build and not being a dick about lifting enemies over our heads, so we can snap our victim up over our head at the apex of each jump, which is either only +10 feet/1d6 on each jump. To be perfectly honest Athlete got us very little other than +1 Dex, because standing jumps are decently efficient when we're content doing 30-40 foot jumps, but it is generally to save us some bookkeeping headaches in edge use conditions. While we have to punch (1d6+Strength+Rage) to grab an opponent, we can then stab them with a dagger (1d6+Strength+Rage+Dueling) on subsequent attacks, often with advantage and Sneak Attack (2d6). And off-turn, we can do a mini-supplex at the end of our victim's rounds if they don't escape our grasp: 37/45 move speed available, which is only enough for a 1d6/2d6 jump unfortunately, +1d6 for arcing them over the top of our heads, but enough to ensure that they end their turn prone after falling so that our allies always have advantage no matter where they are in the initiative order.
A theoretical combat at 20 could progress like this, assuming you already have Jump up from your ring (no reason not to, it's an at-will Bonus Action all day long).
Woof, a lot of math, a lot of shennanigans... but at its core I think it would be a fun character to play. Some the UA Revised class stuff makes this a lot easier and more flexible to pull off, so this could be obsolete if that ever comes out, but even though this guy isn't going to build any DPR awards, I think it's a fun way to control and lock down a single opponent, and just about the only way I can think of to turn your own movement into damage, on your own turn and even on your enemy's .
Edit: I'm realizing, if you never get around to doing an over-70 foot supplex, the Monk's Step of the Wind doubling jump distance isn't actually ever doing anything. You could probably simplify this build mucho by just using Rogue to get Cunning Action dash to fill the same role, and just be a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue with more feats and higher Constitution. Lower opening punch damage, and lower speed until you hit Scout 9, but with higher sneak attacks it's probably better at 20. I think the Monk would be funner to play through from 6-12 though.
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I see you making this argument frequently, but it is rarely valid. As officials often point out, a major component of the design philosophy for 5e is that the rules are written to tell you what you can do, and nothing more. When a rule tells you what you cannot do, or when it relies on another thing to function, it is generally written explicitly. There's nothing about carrying capacity in rules on grappling. There's nothing about grappling in the rules about carrying capacity. There is no direct relationship between carrying capacity/encumbrance and grappling.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.