I'm not sure if anyone's found this combination before, but you can dual wield lances, if you are mounted and have the Dual Wielder Feat. It gets even better if you have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style. What are some other ways to take advantage of this combination?
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"Mounted" is a little fuzzy in 5E. I mean yes, it clearly means riding, and you clearly ride horses and other similar creatures that are provided in the mounts section of the equipment rules, great. But also at its most basic, a mount is any "willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount." What is "appropriate"? Is there a difference between "riding" and "being carried" or "standing on top of"? Can sufficiently novel equipment and tack turn anything into an "appropriate" mount, including bipedal humanoids?
As a halfling, kobold, goblin, or gnome, you're small and probably very light. Your Fighter or Barbarian is probably medium, and may have a sufficient strength capacity to handle another 100 lbs or so of halfling cavalier strapped to his shoulders. The mounted combat section provides that riding an "independent mount" (a creature that is taking its own turns as if you weren't on its back) is absolutely a-ok, it just means you go wherever it goes with its movement on its turn, and then aren't able to control its movement on your own.
RAW, there is absolutely nothing preventing your Halfling Cavalier from riding on the Goliath Barbarian's shoulders, or in a little Babybjorn harness on his chest, or whatever. There's no disadvantage or acrobatics checks from you for riding an independent mount (unless its subject to forced movement), nor any disadvantage or athletics checks from him carrying a rider. It allows the rider to use a lance one handed, negate attacks against the character they're riding using Mounted Combatant and give the ridden character Evasion against Reflex save effects.
The only rule that stands in the way of "riding" your friends, is the prohibition on two characters occupying the same space at the same time. Already, we see that riding has to serve as a specific exception to that rule, because otherwise you would violate it every time you mounted a horse. Or, perhaps mounted characters occupy a space 5 feet 'above' their mount? Either way, riding a humanoid PC is no more problematic for space considerations than riding a horse, so I don't perceive that there's any RAW obstacle here.
The rules for lances and other mounted feats and features are well defined and developed, but hardly ever see play, because characters are so reluctant to bring a horse into battle that dies to the first fireball. If mounting your friends is a way to make lances finally see some play time at the table and bring some diversity to the class representation of the party, then I for one am all for it.
Remember, mounting your friends in D&D is a-Ok! ;)
I get what you are saying. To be honest it’s completely up to the DM about what they would consider to be a mount, depending how stingy they are for rules. Most DMs would probably hands down just allow this for comedic purposes, but I think the problem might lie in the idea that a mount is an extension of the character.
I believe there are a couple of feats or character abilities that are used for when a character is mounting something. I’ll edit it into my post shortly when I find it. These can really affect how the game is played and if another player is being used as a mount.
EDIT: Mounted Combatant feat found in the PHB. That would definitely take some convincing to the DM to allow the player you’re using as a mount to receive these benefits. Including the Cavalier’s ability to provide bonuses to the creature he is using as a mount, if a little more lenient than forcing the enemy to entirely ignore what you are using as a mount.
it had been joked on one of the sessions, that another PC could use my Tortle Paladin as a mount, and with an intelligence score of 5, my Tortle would probably be "happy that he is helping his friend."
Good idea. Too bad that their arms shrink by 5 feet at the end of their turn, so they don't gain this benefit on opportunity attacks.
So long as they make an attack action, their reach extends by 5 feet. Combine that with the Cavalier ability to harass the enemy, you do drive-bys and get to safety and they’ll have major debuffs.
being able to dual wield lances doesn’t seem particularly useful. Especially if you can make use of the Charger feat instead for extra damage without losing out on the shield.
Edit: It just occurred to me it requires a main action to dash to make use of that feat.
It's because their arm(s) started to tremble holding that thing one handed without any support. They had to bring it back in to rest their arm(s).
As for dual wielding lances, most characters wouldn't have enough appendages to pull this off well. A Loxodon might with the trunk used to hold on, but that's some mount. This brings into question the possibility of making an athletics or acrobatics check (I'd have to reread their descriptions to settle on one) to maintain their seat while riding and probably when making an attack (with a minimum DC 20 check). Disadvantage to the attack might be appropriate. That's without even addressing the action economy ramifications or feat interactions.
It sounds like a cool idea, but probably isn't practical in real life or the game without some serious cheese.
Considering that you can't dual wield lances unless you're mounted, I fail to see how it's off topic.
For discussion of how effective dual wielding two reach weapons can be, or a reached and a regular melee weapon, using Whip as a stand in for lances is probably more accessible for most. Typically the damage with melee weapons beyond T1 comes from adding modifiers or extra dice on top of a hit, not from the base weapon die itself, so dual wielding whips is like 90% as effective at generating DPR as dual wielded lances would be, while being about 1000% easier.
Considering that you can't dual wield lances unless you're mounted, I fail to see how it's off topic.
It was turning more into a "rules of mounting" thread, than best way to gain advantage from having two lances. If you want to continue with strange mounting ideas, if they give good mount ideas, that would be good, but just talking about how mounting works isn't good.
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It sounds like a cool idea, but probably isn't practical in real life or the game without some serious cheese.
I agree that it doesn't make sense to be able to ride a horse while simultaneously holding two lances, but it works mechanically.
Right. It would definitely have to be something where the DM signed off on the idea, but there don't seem to be any rules preventing it outside of the bounds of action economy. Granted, you can dual wield any weapon without being able to use them effectively.
Good idea. Too bad that their arms shrink by 5 feet at the end of their turn, so they don't gain this benefit on opportunity attacks.
So long as they make an attack action, their reach extends by 5 feet. Combine that with the Cavalier ability to harass the enemy, you do drive-bys and get to safety and they’ll have major debuffs.
being able to dual wield lances doesn’t seem particularly useful. Especially if you can make use of the Charger feat instead for extra damage without losing out on the shield.
Edit: It just occurred to me it requires a main action to dash to make use of that feat.
Long-Limbed. When you make a melee attack on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal.
It doesn't require an Attack action, just a melee attack on your turn. This means that it would be compatible with Booming Blade. It also doesn't increase your reach for 5 feet, it increases your reach for the melee attack made on your turn by 5 feet. Regardless of whether you interpret "it" to mean the melee attack or your turn, the extended reach won't carry over to other turns.
Still, a Bugbear Cavalier fighter would have the ability to make at least one 15 ft reach attack from a mounted position, which would allow the character to help prevent damage to its mount by making hit and run attacks. This is made easier if the mount takes the dash action each round. Alternatively, the disengage action can be made if you'll be going into a scrum or the dodge action taken if you won't be able to leave attack range with a dash.
Mounted combatant would be able to negate any disadvantage that a DM might apply to dual wielding lances, but that's still worse than the advantage that you would have otherwise. The other bullets are focused on also keeping your mount alive. I'm actually surprised that the ability to force others to target you rather than your mount isn't a reaction. That makes it much stronger that it would have been otherwise, particularly since it leaves you the ability to make opportunity attacks or otherwise use your reaction (Shield anyone?). It doesn't provide for a way to use a bonus action attack, leaving that to two weapon fighting for the dual wielded lances. In order for that to work, you'll have to have Dual Wielder, which isn't bad since it gives you half a shield for your trouble. Interestingly enough, lances aren't heavy even though they weight the same as a halberd, which actually works in favor of being able to dual wield from the perspective that my post #11 was considering. Being able to grab two weapon fighting for the strength mod bonus would be the only way that you could get bonus damage from a fighting style since Great Weapon Fighting requires that you use two hands to make the attack. Defensive Fighting Style might be better overall if you are focusing all attacks on yourself instead of your mount though.
Born to the Saddle makes it easier to mount and harder to fall of your mount with fewer consequences, but no extra attack options.
Therefore, assuming that you've used your two extra fighter ASIs on Mounted Combatant and Dual Wielder, you can mechanically make as many attacks with one lance as you have extra attacks and make a Bonus action attack with the other. This adds up to as much as 5d12+ 4xstr mod (5 with two weapon fighting style) and each of them made at advantage (unless the DM says boo-hoo because of the cheese factor). You'll loose out on the Surprise attack and stealth options of Bugbear most likely, at least while mounted, but those were probably a secondary consideration if you're wearing heavy armor anyway. If you're going to 20, you'll even have 2 levels to spare (assuming that you aren't stressed about the final ASI or the fighter capstone) to dip into Paladin or Ranger for the Defensive Fighting Style if you went Two Weapon Fighting style, or vice versa. You could even dip Barbarian for an interesting concept (You killed my horse! RAGE!!!!!!!). Not a bad concept.
Out of curiosity, would it be possible to dual wield lances if you were playing a Centaur? Considering you have the lower body of a horse and the upper body of a humanoid it could be argued that you are your mount :D Obviously with some heavy homebrewing and negotiating with your DM
Having played this exact character (Cavalier Fighter who Dual Wielded lances), it's hilarious and pretty strong. I also took the Magic Initiate feat for some bonus shenanigans with Speak With Animals. That character is one of my all time favorites because he had an amazing backstory.
"Lance. You have disadvantage when you use a lance to attack a target within 5 feet of you. Also, a lance requires two hands to wield when you aren't mounted." They don't say it's a Reach weapon, and it is kind of hard to use two of them, but I'm sure a clever player will find a way.
"Lance. You have disadvantage when you use a lance to attack a target within 5 feet of you. Also, a lance requires two hands to wield when you aren't mounted." They don't say it's a Reach weapon, and it is kind of hard to use two of them, but I'm sure a clever player will find a way.
I'm not sure if anyone's found this combination before, but you can dual wield lances, if you are mounted and have the Dual Wielder Feat. It gets even better if you have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style. What are some other ways to take advantage of this combination?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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A better way to take advantage of 1 handed lances is a shield and the dueling fighting style.
And being a cavalier fighter.
I just wish I get the chance to use lances in my D&D games.
"Mounted" is a little fuzzy in 5E. I mean yes, it clearly means riding, and you clearly ride horses and other similar creatures that are provided in the mounts section of the equipment rules, great. But also at its most basic, a mount is any "willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount." What is "appropriate"? Is there a difference between "riding" and "being carried" or "standing on top of"? Can sufficiently novel equipment and tack turn anything into an "appropriate" mount, including bipedal humanoids?
As a halfling, kobold, goblin, or gnome, you're small and probably very light. Your Fighter or Barbarian is probably medium, and may have a sufficient strength capacity to handle another 100 lbs or so of halfling cavalier strapped to his shoulders. The mounted combat section provides that riding an "independent mount" (a creature that is taking its own turns as if you weren't on its back) is absolutely a-ok, it just means you go wherever it goes with its movement on its turn, and then aren't able to control its movement on your own.
RAW, there is absolutely nothing preventing your Halfling Cavalier from riding on the Goliath Barbarian's shoulders, or in a little Babybjorn harness on his chest, or whatever. There's no disadvantage or acrobatics checks from you for riding an independent mount (unless its subject to forced movement), nor any disadvantage or athletics checks from him carrying a rider. It allows the rider to use a lance one handed, negate attacks against the character they're riding using Mounted Combatant and give the ridden character Evasion against Reflex save effects.
The only rule that stands in the way of "riding" your friends, is the prohibition on two characters occupying the same space at the same time. Already, we see that riding has to serve as a specific exception to that rule, because otherwise you would violate it every time you mounted a horse. Or, perhaps mounted characters occupy a space 5 feet 'above' their mount? Either way, riding a humanoid PC is no more problematic for space considerations than riding a horse, so I don't perceive that there's any RAW obstacle here.
The rules for lances and other mounted feats and features are well defined and developed, but hardly ever see play, because characters are so reluctant to bring a horse into battle that dies to the first fireball. If mounting your friends is a way to make lances finally see some play time at the table and bring some diversity to the class representation of the party, then I for one am all for it.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Remember, mounting your friends in D&D is a-Ok! ;)
I get what you are saying. To be honest it’s completely up to the DM about what they would consider to be a mount, depending how stingy they are for rules. Most DMs would probably hands down just allow this for comedic purposes, but I think the problem might lie in the idea that a mount is an extension of the character.
I believe there are a couple of feats or character abilities that are used for when a character is mounting something. I’ll edit it into my post shortly when I find it. These can really affect how the game is played and if another player is being used as a mount.
EDIT: Mounted Combatant feat found in the PHB. That would definitely take some convincing to the DM to allow the player you’re using as a mount to receive these benefits. Including the Cavalier’s ability to provide bonuses to the creature he is using as a mount, if a little more lenient than forcing the enemy to entirely ignore what you are using as a mount.
it had been joked on one of the sessions, that another PC could use my Tortle Paladin as a mount, and with an intelligence score of 5, my Tortle would probably be "happy that he is helping his friend."
Can we get back to the dual wielding lances idea, instead of general mounting rules?
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Bugbear first the extra reach. Boom. Super lance.
Good idea. Too bad that their arms shrink by 5 feet at the end of their turn, so they don't gain this benefit on opportunity attacks.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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So long as they make an attack action, their reach extends by 5 feet. Combine that with the Cavalier ability to harass the enemy, you do drive-bys and get to safety and they’ll have major debuffs.
being able to dual wield lances doesn’t seem particularly useful. Especially if you can make use of the Charger feat instead for extra damage without losing out on the shield.
Edit: It just occurred to me it requires a main action to dash to make use of that feat.
It's because their arm(s) started to tremble holding that thing one handed without any support. They had to bring it back in to rest their arm(s).
As for dual wielding lances, most characters wouldn't have enough appendages to pull this off well. A Loxodon might with the trunk used to hold on, but that's some mount. This brings into question the possibility of making an athletics or acrobatics check (I'd have to reread their descriptions to settle on one) to maintain their seat while riding and probably when making an attack (with a minimum DC 20 check). Disadvantage to the attack might be appropriate. That's without even addressing the action economy ramifications or feat interactions.
It sounds like a cool idea, but probably isn't practical in real life or the game without some serious cheese.
Considering that you can't dual wield lances unless you're mounted, I fail to see how it's off topic.
For discussion of how effective dual wielding two reach weapons can be, or a reached and a regular melee weapon, using Whip as a stand in for lances is probably more accessible for most. Typically the damage with melee weapons beyond T1 comes from adding modifiers or extra dice on top of a hit, not from the base weapon die itself, so dual wielding whips is like 90% as effective at generating DPR as dual wielded lances would be, while being about 1000% easier.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I agree that it doesn't make sense to be able to ride a horse while simultaneously holding two lances, but it works mechanically.
It was turning more into a "rules of mounting" thread, than best way to gain advantage from having two lances. If you want to continue with strange mounting ideas, if they give good mount ideas, that would be good, but just talking about how mounting works isn't good.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Right. It would definitely have to be something where the DM signed off on the idea, but there don't seem to be any rules preventing it outside of the bounds of action economy. Granted, you can dual wield any weapon without being able to use them effectively.
Long-Limbed. When you make a melee attack on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal.
It doesn't require an Attack action, just a melee attack on your turn. This means that it would be compatible with Booming Blade. It also doesn't increase your reach for 5 feet, it increases your reach for the melee attack made on your turn by 5 feet. Regardless of whether you interpret "it" to mean the melee attack or your turn, the extended reach won't carry over to other turns.
Still, a Bugbear Cavalier fighter would have the ability to make at least one 15 ft reach attack from a mounted position, which would allow the character to help prevent damage to its mount by making hit and run attacks. This is made easier if the mount takes the dash action each round. Alternatively, the disengage action can be made if you'll be going into a scrum or the dodge action taken if you won't be able to leave attack range with a dash.
Mounted combatant would be able to negate any disadvantage that a DM might apply to dual wielding lances, but that's still worse than the advantage that you would have otherwise. The other bullets are focused on also keeping your mount alive. I'm actually surprised that the ability to force others to target you rather than your mount isn't a reaction. That makes it much stronger that it would have been otherwise, particularly since it leaves you the ability to make opportunity attacks or otherwise use your reaction (Shield anyone?). It doesn't provide for a way to use a bonus action attack, leaving that to two weapon fighting for the dual wielded lances. In order for that to work, you'll have to have Dual Wielder, which isn't bad since it gives you half a shield for your trouble. Interestingly enough, lances aren't heavy even though they weight the same as a halberd, which actually works in favor of being able to dual wield from the perspective that my post #11 was considering. Being able to grab two weapon fighting for the strength mod bonus would be the only way that you could get bonus damage from a fighting style since Great Weapon Fighting requires that you use two hands to make the attack. Defensive Fighting Style might be better overall if you are focusing all attacks on yourself instead of your mount though.
Born to the Saddle makes it easier to mount and harder to fall of your mount with fewer consequences, but no extra attack options.
Therefore, assuming that you've used your two extra fighter ASIs on Mounted Combatant and Dual Wielder, you can mechanically make as many attacks with one lance as you have extra attacks and make a Bonus action attack with the other. This adds up to as much as 5d12+ 4xstr mod (5 with two weapon fighting style) and each of them made at advantage (unless the DM says boo-hoo because of the cheese factor). You'll loose out on the Surprise attack and stealth options of Bugbear most likely, at least while mounted, but those were probably a secondary consideration if you're wearing heavy armor anyway. If you're going to 20, you'll even have 2 levels to spare (assuming that you aren't stressed about the final ASI or the fighter capstone) to dip into Paladin or Ranger for the Defensive Fighting Style if you went Two Weapon Fighting style, or vice versa. You could even dip Barbarian for an interesting concept (You killed my horse! RAGE!!!!!!!). Not a bad concept.
Out of curiosity, would it be possible to dual wield lances if you were playing a Centaur? Considering you have the lower body of a horse and the upper body of a humanoid it could be argued that you are your mount :D Obviously with some heavy homebrewing and negotiating with your DM
RAW, no. However, the DM can easily overrule this and allow you to.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Having played this exact character (Cavalier Fighter who Dual Wielded lances), it's hilarious and pretty strong. I also took the Magic Initiate feat for some bonus shenanigans with Speak With Animals. That character is one of my all time favorites because he had an amazing backstory.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
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There is nothing better than to mount the enlarged and spiritually guarded cleric with lance dual weilding warrior. Hedgehog of death.
"Lance. You have disadvantage when you use a lance to attack a target within 5 feet of you. Also, a lance requires two hands to wield when you aren't mounted." They don't say it's a Reach weapon, and it is kind of hard to use two of them, but I'm sure a clever player will find a way.
<Insert clever signature here>
Lances explicitly have reach.