I looked up some of this on Sage Advice, but I feel an important part has been slightly skipped. It's definite that you can gain the +2 damage of the fighting style Dueling when you have a shield equipped, and it's also stated that if you should attack with the shield itself as an improvised weapon, you still get to keep the AC bonus from the shield. But when you attack with the shield as an improvised weapon, it becomes a weapon in your hand and you are effectively dual-wielding, whether you're trained or not, correct? In such a circumstance, does the benefit from Dueling go away until start of next turn or how does that work? I like the idea of a good shield bash, but it's obviously an offhand attack which runs counter to the point of dueling.
There’s not really a definitive RAW answer here. The consensus on this forum seems to be that you shouldn’t benefit from the Dueling bonus if you make an attack with the shield.
The RAW ruling would be that a shield isn't a weapon. The ability to shield bash is a home-brewed thing by a DM and therefore it's up to the DM to determine how Dueling fighting style interacts with this.
Personally, if I were DMing this instance, if you're intending to use a shield for that shield bash, you no longer benefit from the Dueling fighting style.
There is no such consensus, and the RAW ruling is that you can make improvised weapon attacks with anything and everything you can hold in one or more hands. Using a shield to make an improvised weapon attack after having already taken a sword swing benefiting from Dueling fighting style is absolutely 100% fine, just like drawing a second sword to make an attack after having already taken a sword swing benefiting from Dueling fighting style is absolutely 100% fine.
Some people (lots of people it seems) feel like it's underhanded and cheap, so it may not be worth annoying your DM by building a character concept around it, but the mechanics are solid enough.
I'm trying to think of a situation in which you're better off attacking with a sword then following up with the shield as opposed to just taking two whacks with the sword.
There is no such consensus, and the RAW ruling is that you can make improvised weapon attacks with anything and everything you can hold in one or more hands.
That there is a consensus does not mean there's no dissent. This question comes up every so often; most people assert that using a shield as a weapon counts as "wielding" another weapon, so you're not dueling anymore. Sure, some people disagree, usually the same few people. I will, to my dying breath, assert that the rules as written say that holding a spellcasting focus does not interfere with somatic components, regardless of whether or not a spell has a material component. But I won't claim that there isn't a consensus to the contrary.
What I will concede is that my impression of a consensus is obviously anecdotal. I haven't done any statistical analysis of forum posts. But that's why I said "seems to be" :p
Okay, very cool, and thanks everyone. Still getting back into the game and because I'm kinda anti-social, pretty unplugged from the larger community brain, so I appreciate everyone chiming in. :)
... Using a shield to make an improvised weapon attack after having already taken a sword swing benefiting from Dueling fighting style is absolutely 100% fine, just like drawing a second sword to make an attack after having already taken a sword swing benefiting from Dueling fighting style is absolutely 100% fine...
It is fine for the duelling boost, but access to the Two-Weapon Fighting bonus attack will depend on your DM's interpretation of the Two-Weapon Fighting rules. My reading is that you are only granted the bonus action attack when you are actually holding two weapons (real, not improvised) during a normal Attack Action. I don't think that's a debate worth having here though.
The original question has the character with sword and shield:
Do they get access to a TWF bonus action attack? No, they only have one weapon. They only get their normal number of attacks.
If they attack with the shield as an improvised weapon, do they get dueling bonus to that attack? No, there is a weapon in their other hand. But why they would want to use the shield which does less damage than the sword, I don't know. They keep their +2 AC either way.
If they have extra attacks, could they attack with shield and then with sword and still get the Dueling damage boost to the sword? I think, yes. At the moment of the sword attack they are holding just one weapon so they get the dueling boost. Though the same question applies as to why make the shield attack at all.
It is worth repeating that there is no such thing as an "off-hand" attack in this rule set. There are attacks that are made as part of an Attack Action, and there is the two-weapon fighting bonus attack which must be made with a weapon in a different hand to the hand used for one of the Attack Action attacks.
A high-level fighter with a sword and dagger equipped could use - Attack Action: sword, dagger, sword - TWF Bonus attack: sword. The sword is in the opposite hand to the dagger used once during the Attack Action, and neither of them is "off-hand".
The rules for this interaction are a little... non-existent.
You definitely can attack with a shield as an improvised weapon. And if you are holding another weapon, that shield attack does not get the dueling bonus. But as for how long the shield is treated as a weapon afterward is up to DM (I say it should be whole turn just to discourage every duelist from doing it).
That's a good point. You would technically need a feat to use it as an improvised weapon and make a bonus action attack.
Though if it was a homebrew item with the option to make a bonus action attack that was not an improvised weapon, then it would either always or never count as a weapon depending on the description of that homebrew item.
I think the only way to make this work might be if you get two attacks when you take the attack action. As has been said, the shield is not a light weapon, which means you cannot use TWF with the shield under normal conditions. And even if you pick up the dual wielder feat, it only applies to melee weapons, which I'm not sure an improvised weapon meets the requirement for. I could be completely wrong on that one, but if I'm not, then you still wouldn't be able to attack with the shield using TWF even if you had the dual wielder feat. In fact, it's possible you would not get any of the three bullet point benefits of the dual wielder feat if you use the shield as an improvised secondary weapon.
I think you're better of taking the two weapon fighting style and attacking once with the sword and once with the shield than you are taking the dueling fighting style just to get an extra +2 damage on the sword before attacking with the shield as an improvised weapon. And even if you did, I think the numbers would favor two weapon fighting style so you at least get your damage bonus on the shield's melee attack. I'm guessing the shield would still take an action to wear or stow even if it was being used as an improvised weapon, as opposed to a free object interaction.
The shield master feat would let you hit however many times with the sword, getting your +2 dueling damage bonus, and then use your bonus action to shove with the shield, although that wasn't exactly what you were talking about either since it's not a real damage-inflicting attack. I guess you could hit with the sword, and then attack with the shield and then use your bonus action to shove. At least that's on-brand.
Just hit them twice with your sword and use the shield for a shield. Way simpler and better results overall.
I don't think that it's super common for Sword-n-Board Paladins, Cavaliers, Battlemasters to come with Dual Wielder (maybe a little more likely for the Fighters, but still rare), but each of them could pick up some real value from being able to make a Bonus Action attack, even if it's a d4 attack, and even if it's made without Proficiency, and even if they don't have Two Weapon fighting style to be able to add their attack modifier to the damage.
The Paladin picks up one more opportunity to crit with that Bonus Action, which can be used as a doubled-Smite delivery vector regardless of how crap the underlying attack was.
The Cavalier can potentially mark a second or third enemy in a crowded combat.
The Battlemaster can deploy a Superiority Die, flinging them across the battlefield or scaring them or maneuvering an ally, etc.
For those classes, having a Bonus Action attack is a benefit in its own right, even if it were just a 1 damage unarmed strike they'd still gladly take it. And yet, their party composition and role may require them to wear a shield to serve as the Party's front line tank. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's enough to make Dual Wielder a good feat for them, but it's definitely something to consider if they've got room, especially since it also just sort of helps with drawing/stowing/manipulating/potion chugging in combat in general.
I looked up some of this on Sage Advice, but I feel an important part has been slightly skipped. It's definite that you can gain the +2 damage of the fighting style Dueling when you have a shield equipped, and it's also stated that if you should attack with the shield itself as an improvised weapon, you still get to keep the AC bonus from the shield. But when you attack with the shield as an improvised weapon, it becomes a weapon in your hand and you are effectively dual-wielding, whether you're trained or not, correct? In such a circumstance, does the benefit from Dueling go away until start of next turn or how does that work? I like the idea of a good shield bash, but it's obviously an offhand attack which runs counter to the point of dueling.
There’s not really a definitive RAW answer here. The consensus on this forum seems to be that you shouldn’t benefit from the Dueling bonus if you make an attack with the shield.
The RAW ruling would be that a shield isn't a weapon. The ability to shield bash is a home-brewed thing by a DM and therefore it's up to the DM to determine how Dueling fighting style interacts with this.
Personally, if I were DMing this instance, if you're intending to use a shield for that shield bash, you no longer benefit from the Dueling fighting style.
There is no such consensus, and the RAW ruling is that you can make improvised weapon attacks with anything and everything you can hold in one or more hands. Using a shield to make an improvised weapon attack after having already taken a sword swing benefiting from Dueling fighting style is absolutely 100% fine, just like drawing a second sword to make an attack after having already taken a sword swing benefiting from Dueling fighting style is absolutely 100% fine.
Some people (lots of people it seems) feel like it's underhanded and cheap, so it may not be worth annoying your DM by building a character concept around it, but the mechanics are solid enough.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'm trying to think of a situation in which you're better off attacking with a sword then following up with the shield as opposed to just taking two whacks with the sword.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That there is a consensus does not mean there's no dissent. This question comes up every so often; most people assert that using a shield as a weapon counts as "wielding" another weapon, so you're not dueling anymore. Sure, some people disagree, usually the same few people. I will, to my dying breath, assert that the rules as written say that holding a spellcasting focus does not interfere with somatic components, regardless of whether or not a spell has a material component. But I won't claim that there isn't a consensus to the contrary.
What I will concede is that my impression of a consensus is obviously anecdotal. I haven't done any statistical analysis of forum posts. But that's why I said "seems to be" :p
Okay, very cool, and thanks everyone. Still getting back into the game and because I'm kinda anti-social, pretty unplugged from the larger community brain, so I appreciate everyone chiming in. :)
It is fine for the duelling boost, but access to the Two-Weapon Fighting bonus attack will depend on your DM's interpretation of the Two-Weapon Fighting rules. My reading is that you are only granted the bonus action attack when you are actually holding two weapons (real, not improvised) during a normal Attack Action. I don't think that's a debate worth having here though.
The original question has the character with sword and shield:
Do they get access to a TWF bonus action attack? No, they only have one weapon. They only get their normal number of attacks.
If they attack with the shield as an improvised weapon, do they get dueling bonus to that attack? No, there is a weapon in their other hand. But why they would want to use the shield which does less damage than the sword, I don't know. They keep their +2 AC either way.
If they have extra attacks, could they attack with shield and then with sword and still get the Dueling damage boost to the sword? I think, yes. At the moment of the sword attack they are holding just one weapon so they get the dueling boost. Though the same question applies as to why make the shield attack at all.
It is worth repeating that there is no such thing as an "off-hand" attack in this rule set. There are attacks that are made as part of an Attack Action, and there is the two-weapon fighting bonus attack which must be made with a weapon in a different hand to the hand used for one of the Attack Action attacks.
A high-level fighter with a sword and dagger equipped could use - Attack Action: sword, dagger, sword - TWF Bonus attack: sword. The sword is in the opposite hand to the dagger used once during the Attack Action, and neither of them is "off-hand".
Fair, I haven't done much reading on the TWF rules in this edition, I never cared for the option myself.
The rules for this interaction are a little... non-existent.
You definitely can attack with a shield as an improvised weapon. And if you are holding another weapon, that shield attack does not get the dueling bonus. But as for how long the shield is treated as a weapon afterward is up to DM (I say it should be whole turn just to discourage every duelist from doing it).
Just remember the difference between “Dual Wielding,” “Two-Weapon Fighting,” and the “Two-Weapon Fighting Style” (because WotC thought it wasn’t confusing enough without that), my point being, a Shield does not have the light property.
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That's a good point. You would technically need a feat to use it as an improvised weapon and make a bonus action attack.
Though if it was a homebrew item with the option to make a bonus action attack that was not an improvised weapon, then it would either always or never count as a weapon depending on the description of that homebrew item.
And with Tavern Brawler, to further complicate maters.
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I think the only way to make this work might be if you get two attacks when you take the attack action. As has been said, the shield is not a light weapon, which means you cannot use TWF with the shield under normal conditions. And even if you pick up the dual wielder feat, it only applies to melee weapons, which I'm not sure an improvised weapon meets the requirement for. I could be completely wrong on that one, but if I'm not, then you still wouldn't be able to attack with the shield using TWF even if you had the dual wielder feat. In fact, it's possible you would not get any of the three bullet point benefits of the dual wielder feat if you use the shield as an improvised secondary weapon.
I think you're better of taking the two weapon fighting style and attacking once with the sword and once with the shield than you are taking the dueling fighting style just to get an extra +2 damage on the sword before attacking with the shield as an improvised weapon. And even if you did, I think the numbers would favor two weapon fighting style so you at least get your damage bonus on the shield's melee attack. I'm guessing the shield would still take an action to wear or stow even if it was being used as an improvised weapon, as opposed to a free object interaction.
The shield master feat would let you hit however many times with the sword, getting your +2 dueling damage bonus, and then use your bonus action to shove with the shield, although that wasn't exactly what you were talking about either since it's not a real damage-inflicting attack. I guess you could hit with the sword, and then attack with the shield and then use your bonus action to shove. At least that's on-brand.
Just hit them twice with your sword and use the shield for a shield. Way simpler and better results overall.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't think that it's super common for Sword-n-Board Paladins, Cavaliers, Battlemasters to come with Dual Wielder (maybe a little more likely for the Fighters, but still rare), but each of them could pick up some real value from being able to make a Bonus Action attack, even if it's a d4 attack, and even if it's made without Proficiency, and even if they don't have Two Weapon fighting style to be able to add their attack modifier to the damage.
For those classes, having a Bonus Action attack is a benefit in its own right, even if it were just a 1 damage unarmed strike they'd still gladly take it. And yet, their party composition and role may require them to wear a shield to serve as the Party's front line tank. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's enough to make Dual Wielder a good feat for them, but it's definitely something to consider if they've got room, especially since it also just sort of helps with drawing/stowing/manipulating/potion chugging in combat in general.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.