the hobgoblin warlord is an CR 6 monster with an proficiency bonus of +3 and an strength bonus of +3, and yet its attack bonus for its strength based melee attacks is +9. Is this some kind of print error, or is it meant to represent the complete matial mastery of the hobgoblin warlord, just like how ghouls and ghasts dont add their proficiency bonus to their bite attacks?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Monsters are not necessarily constructed like PCs. Sometimes their numbers work out, sometimes they have hidden or unexplained bonuses just due to them being monsters. Implying that they have expertise in their attacks isn't exactly correct. In fact you don't know what its proficiency bonus is, you can only infer it based on some assumptions.
WotC just invented some numbers in some stat blocks to make the monsters feel good to play against. That is all.
It’s because of the screwey way that CR gets calculated. It’s “offensive CR” is probably way higher than 6 (maybe 10ish) so it has a higher “proficiency bonus” but it’s “defensive CR” is probably much lower (probably 1ish). When they average to a CR 6, that brings the creature’s Proficiency bonus down to +3, but in actually it probably has an “offensive proficiency bonus” of +6, but only a “defensive proficiency bonus” of only +2. Confusing, I know.
Monsters are not necessarily constructed like PCs. Sometimes their numbers work out, sometimes they have hidden or unexplained bonuses just due to them being monsters. Implying that they have expertise in their attacks isn't exactly correct. In fact you don't know what its proficiency bonus is, you can only infer it based on some assumptions.
WotC just invented some numbers in some stat blocks to make the monsters feel good to play against. That is all.
yeah that sound probably about right, but you know monsters still have proficiency bonuses just like player characters right? there is even an table for proficency bonus by challenge rating table, and most monsters still ether have raw bonuses to hit or to skills equal to their proficency bonus or twice their proficency bonus, so i donno expertise just feels more likely
It’s because of the screwey way that CR gets calculated. It’s “offensive CR” is probably way higher than 6 (maybe 10ish) so it has a higher “proficiency bonus” but it’s “defensive CR” is probably much lower (probably 1ish). When they average to a CR 6, that brings the creature’s Proficiency bonus down to +3, but in actually it probably has an “offensive proficiency bonus” of +6, but only a “defensive proficiency bonus” of only +2. Confusing, I know.
well the problem with this theory is that no other monster works like that, and the fact that the hobgoblin has several saving throw proficiencies and the parry reaction ripped straight from the defensive duelist feat, and in both those cases its proficiency bonus is +3, and since proficiency bonus is based of CR and gained at sort of the same rate as player characters that would mean that the hobgoblin somehow has an offensive CR of 17, and that just does not sound right to me
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I do know that monsters have proficiency bonuses, but that table is NOT designed for you to backcalculate the proficiency of a published monster, but to determine what the bonus would be in creating your own. It is designed to go forward in the creation process, not to backtrack (because you will find exceptions in the published monsters).
Again, Expertise is a player character option that allows adding the proficiency bonus again to skills that you already have proficiency. Most monster bonuses are (relevant skill) + (proficiency bonus) or (relevant skill) + 2*(proficiency bonus), but not all (sometimes you'll just find a random +1 or +2). And, the hidden bonuses for monsters are never named (so calling it 'akin to expertise' is ok, but calling it expertise is not correct).
do you just like estimate the difficulty of the encounter will be or do you take the immersive route of putting an monster where they are likely to be in terms of the lore and dont care about how hard they are for the players to defeat?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
do you just like estimate the difficulty of the encounter will be or do you take the immersive route of putting an monster where they are likely to be in terms of the lore and dont care about how hard they are for the players to defeat?
I basically do a combination of the two. If I do “calculate” my encounters I have found that anything less than “deadly” is more of a nuisance than a challenge for them. Basically I use Attacks/HP.
Long story short, I don’t care how hard they are for the PCs to defeat. In fact, I frequently look at an encounter after I have designed it and think to myself “How the hell are they gonna get outta this one alive?!?” And every time, they do somehow.
I also adjust things like monster HP during the fight. 🤫 The easiest way to “balance” an encounter is to not decide exactly how hard it will be until half way through. If the PCs are steamrolling the encounter, monster MAX HP goes up. If they are getting wafflestomped, HP goes down. In fact, I made up an entire encounter basically as it was happening and to this day, the players still talk about that Wyvern. I secretly doubled the monster’s HP 3 times mid battle, and it only just escaped their wrath (they were only 3rd-level at the time). Now, I can throw it at them again from time to time as a Moby Dick type nemesis for them.
the hobgoblin warlord is an CR 6 monster with an proficiency bonus of +3 and an strength bonus of +3, and yet its attack bonus for its strength based melee attacks is +9. Is this some kind of print error, or is it meant to represent the complete matial mastery of the hobgoblin warlord, just like how ghouls and ghasts dont add their proficiency bonus to their bite attacks?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Monsters are not necessarily constructed like PCs. Sometimes their numbers work out, sometimes they have hidden or unexplained bonuses just due to them being monsters. Implying that they have expertise in their attacks isn't exactly correct. In fact you don't know what its proficiency bonus is, you can only infer it based on some assumptions.
WotC just invented some numbers in some stat blocks to make the monsters feel good to play against. That is all.
It’s because of the screwey way that CR gets calculated. It’s “offensive CR” is probably way higher than 6 (maybe 10ish) so it has a higher “proficiency bonus” but it’s “defensive CR” is probably much lower (probably 1ish). When they average to a CR 6, that brings the creature’s Proficiency bonus down to +3, but in actually it probably has an “offensive proficiency bonus” of +6, but only a “defensive proficiency bonus” of only +2. Confusing, I know.
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yeah that sound probably about right, but you know monsters still have proficiency bonuses just like player characters right? there is even an table for proficency bonus by challenge rating table, and most monsters still ether have raw bonuses to hit or to skills equal to their proficency bonus or twice their proficency bonus, so i donno expertise just feels more likely
well the problem with this theory is that no other monster works like that, and the fact that the hobgoblin has several saving throw proficiencies and the parry reaction ripped straight from the defensive duelist feat, and in both those cases its proficiency bonus is +3, and since proficiency bonus is based of CR and gained at sort of the same rate as player characters that would mean that the hobgoblin somehow has an offensive CR of 17, and that just does not sound right to me
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That is exactly why I threw CR out the window and my games have improved.
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I do know that monsters have proficiency bonuses, but that table is NOT designed for you to backcalculate the proficiency of a published monster, but to determine what the bonus would be in creating your own. It is designed to go forward in the creation process, not to backtrack (because you will find exceptions in the published monsters).
Again, Expertise is a player character option that allows adding the proficiency bonus again to skills that you already have proficiency. Most monster bonuses are (relevant skill) + (proficiency bonus) or (relevant skill) + 2*(proficiency bonus), but not all (sometimes you'll just find a random +1 or +2). And, the hidden bonuses for monsters are never named (so calling it 'akin to expertise' is ok, but calling it expertise is not correct).
do you just like estimate the difficulty of the encounter will be or do you take the immersive route of putting an monster where they are likely to be in terms of the lore and dont care about how hard they are for the players to defeat?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I basically do a combination of the two. If I do “calculate” my encounters I have found that anything less than “deadly” is more of a nuisance than a challenge for them. Basically I use Attacks/HP.
Long story short, I don’t care how hard they are for the PCs to defeat. In fact, I frequently look at an encounter after I have designed it and think to myself “How the hell are they gonna get outta this one alive?!?” And every time, they do somehow.
I also adjust things like monster HP during the fight. 🤫 The easiest way to “balance” an encounter is to not decide exactly how hard it will be until half way through. If the PCs are steamrolling the encounter, monster MAX HP goes up. If they are getting wafflestomped, HP goes down. In fact, I made up an entire encounter basically as it was happening and to this day, the players still talk about that Wyvern. I secretly doubled the monster’s HP 3 times mid battle, and it only just escaped their wrath (they were only 3rd-level at the time). Now, I can throw it at them again from time to time as a Moby Dick type nemesis for them.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting