There appears to be an omission from the invocation text and I wonder if this is intentional. It's a bit hyper-specific so I haven't been able to find anything relating to this question.
"With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means."
What this omits is the spells that you can eventually add to the Book of Shadows. It does not explicitly state that you are only able to ritual cast a ritual spell that is in the book, it only says this for the chosen spells.
However, the Invocation does explicitly state that the only spells you can add to the Book of Ancient Secrets are other Ritual spells. You can't add Fireball to the Book, for example, because Fireball is not a Ritual spell.
Also... you could have simply edited your other post instead of starting a new thread.
I'm wondering if it allows you to cast those ritual spells with a spell slot or only as a ritual.
You already quoted the relevant part which tells you the answer:
You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means.
If you learned them by other means then you can cast them using those other means. If you know them only from the book - you can only cast them as rituals.
That refers to the two spells you get when you take the invocation. Doesn't refer to the spells you can add, which is in the next paragraph.
Probably because they follow the same rules. Normally, you can cast spells using spell slots. If you are given another means of casting those spells, ie ritual casting, then you can cast it in those ways as well. If that means places limitations on how it can be cast, then those limitations are a specific rule to override the general rule. Granting additional spells at a later time using the same feature would be adding spells in the same manner and would require clarification that they could be cast using the more general rule if that was intended.
It says "chosen two" because at the point of taking the invocation they are the only ones you get.
The rulings apply to any spells added which must be ritual spells - which is detailed twice specifically to ensure the context "this is about ritual casting".
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The line about casting spells in other ways is because some ritual spells are on the Warlock spell list- if you learn those spells as Warlock spells, the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation lets you cast them as rituals in addition to using Warlock spell slots. You can't cast a spell you only know through the Book of Ancient Secrets using a spell slot.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Okay so what you all are saying is your own assumptions about what you think the rules are intended to mean. What I am saying is what it literally, as written, it does not say that. It is left up to interpretation. It says you can only cast the chosen two spells as rituals whereas the ritual caster feat says "You have learned a number of spells that you can cast as rituals." That is much more explicit that all the spells in the book can only be cast as rituals. The extra spells are listed after the fact and are not specifically stated to only be cast as rituals. It's just literally not there. I know its nit-picky but it seems like an intentional omission.
It says "chosen two" because at the point of taking the invocation they are the only ones you get.
The rulings apply to any spells added which must be ritual spells - which is detailed twice specifically to ensure the context "this is about ritual casting".
These are all assumptions made based on your own interpretations of the rules, Not explicitly what the rules state verbatim.
I'm wondering if it allows you to cast those ritual spells with a spell slot or only as a ritual.
You already quoted the relevant part which tells you the answer:
You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means.
If you learned them by other means then you can cast them using those other means. If you know them only from the book - you can only cast them as rituals.
This sentence refers specifically to those two spells, hence it following mentioning those two spells. What isn't explicitly stated is "You can't cast spells in this book except as rituals, which would explicitly state that all spells in the book (besides the cantrips) can only be cast as rituals.
The line about casting spells in other ways is because some ritual spells are on the Warlock spell list- if you learn those spells as Warlock spells, the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation lets you cast them as rituals in addition to using Warlock spell slots. You can't cast a spell you only know through the Book of Ancient Secrets using a spell slot.
This is not the part of the sentence I am referring to. I am referring to the first part of the sentence, casting the two spells only as rituals.
That refers to the two spells you get when you take the invocation. Doesn't refer to the spells you can add, which is in the next paragraph.
Probably because they follow the same rules. Normally, you can cast spells using spell slots. If you are given another means of casting those spells, ie ritual casting, then you can cast it in those ways as well. If that means places limitations on how it can be cast, then those limitations are a specific rule to override the general rule. Granting additional spells at a later time using the same feature would be adding spells in the same manner and would require clarification that they could be cast using the more general rule if that was intended.
This is perhaps the most thought out answer I have received and the one I agree with the most. It is still an assumption, an inferred one but it is well articulated. I still have to disagree based on opinion, since that is what this is, but it is very well thought out.
Okay, first. Selectively choosing what you want to belive is not the way rules work. Most everyone knows that the way it is written is stating that you can only add ritual spells
"You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows. Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class’s spell list (the two needn’t be from the same list). The spells appear in the book and don’t count against the number of spells you know. With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can’t cast the spells except as rituals, unless you’ve learned them by some other means. You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag.
On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell’s level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it."
Secondly, it is not an opinion, it is a fact that if you read it and also use D&D Beyond you will see that you can not cast those spells as anything else but rituals. I am sorry you feel like you should be right and that you dont want to listen to what others say but face it. You. Are. Wrong.
Okay, first. Selectively choosing what you want to belive is not the way rules work. Most everyone knows that the way it is written is stating that you can only add ritual spells
"You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows. Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class’s spell list (the two needn’t be from the same list). The spells appear in the book and don’t count against the number of spells you know. With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can’t cast the spells except as rituals, unless you’ve learned them by some other means. You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag.
On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell’s level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it."
Secondly, it is not an opinion, it is a fact that if you read it and also use D&D Beyond you will see that you can not cast those spells as anything else but rituals. I am sorry you feel like you should be right and that you dont want to listen to what others say but face it. You. Are. Wrong.
I know you can only inscribe rituals. Nowhere did I say you could inscribe non ritual spells in the book. It is just an odd choice of phrasing and words the way that it is written. I will stand with my opinion even if it's unpopular because to me it seems like an intentional omission and that's that, Also just because I don't want to agree with others doesn't mean I don't want to listen to them. Thank you for replying though.
Also side note, selectively choosing what you believe is what an opinion is. When the rules do not explicitly state something and everyone assumes it means one way or the other that's just a more popular opinion.
Logic Flow: Invocation says you learn 2 ritual spells and can only cast those spells as rituals. It plainly does not say something like "You can only ritual cast ritual spells in this book unless you learn them through some other source." It just doesn't say that. It's not an opinion. The assumed or inferred intent of this sentence is that any ritual spell in the book can only be cast as a ritual. That is an opinion. Later on it mentions that you can add other ritual spells to the book but does not specify that these ritual spells can only be cast as rituals. That is all I am saying. It seems like an intentional omission in my opinion. That is all I am saying.
The rule explicitly tells you how to treat ritual spells in the Book of Shadows and then gives you instructions on how to copy additional RITUAL spells into the Book of Shadows. The rule does not give different instructions for the later rituals. It states that the first spells in the book can only be cast as rituals unless you also obtain them from another source. What makes you think that the rules for additional ritual spells added to the Book of Shadows would be treated any differently than the first two? The rules do not say what you want them to say, they do not say that additional rituals are treated differently from the first two. You are trying to interpret the later spells to be treated differently based on the fact that the rule does not explicitly state that they are treated the same as the first two.
However, the wording of the description of the Book of Shadows seems pretty clear that the book is for casting ritual spells only.
"You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows."
"With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means."
Your entire argument is based on the fact that the text may only explicitly state what happens to the first two spells due to the use of "chosen spells" in this sentence. However, "chosen spells" could as easily be used to refer to ANY spells you have chosen to add to your Book of Shadows, either the first two or any other rituals you have scribed in the book. (though that requires a broader usage and is probably out of context).
"On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows."
Anyway, the bottom line is ask your DM but as you can see, most of the rest of the people here do not agree with your interpretation, and in all likelihood, your DM won't agree with that point of view either.
The rules may not say what I would like them to say but they also do not say what you would like them to say either. Being forced to say "the wording seems pretty clear means you are interpreting something that is not there, aka making an assumption and forming an opinion. Just because your opinion is backed up by more people doesn't make my opinion any less valid lol. At the end of the day all we can agree on is that it is not entirely specific about the additional ritual spells and that you need to decide one way or the other which is better or more fair.
This thread is not some sort of legal dissertation. You don't get to claim that there's wiggle room on the rules by trying to rules lawyer what language someone else used by claiming that that makes the actual rules (which are explicit) somehow open to interpretation- nobody's going to accept that as some sort of valid argument.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, if you want to take a really literal interpretation of the text, it doesn’t actually say you can cast additional spells you add to the book at all. The text says you can add ritual spells to the book, but it only actually explicitly gives you the ability to cast the ones you choose when you take the invocation.
It’s pretty clear then that the omission is not intentional; if it were, it would mean the designers thought it would be fun to let you write stuff down in your ritual book that you can do literally nothing else with.
What the text actually says: “You can cast the two spells you pick, as well as other warlock spells you know with the ritual tag, as rituals. You can add other ritual spells to the book but there’s nothing you can do with them.”
What everyone else in the thread is saying: “That’s obviously an oversight, the additional spells work the same way as the first two.”
What you seem to be saying: “No, they work some third way that’s mentioned literally nowhere.”
Yeah that's a pretty bad faith way to apply the rules. Sure, technically you could be construed to be right @Lavince, but that same level of technicality applied to absurd effect anywhere else in the rules would warp the game into something ridiculous and honestly not fun.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This thread is not some sort of legal dissertation. You don't get to claim that there's wiggle room on the rules by trying to rules lawyer what language someone else used by claiming that that makes the actual rules (which are explicit) somehow open to interpretation- nobody's going to accept that as some sort of valid argument.
I think Saga made the point very well. If you try to read the rules as literally as you seem to want to ... then you can ONLY cast the first two spells you put in the book and those can only be cast as rituals. You can copy other spells into the book as much as you like but nowhere does the text say you can cast them at all. So the most literal reading is you get two spells and can copy others but can only cast the first two in the book.
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There appears to be an omission from the invocation text and I wonder if this is intentional. It's a bit hyper-specific so I haven't been able to find anything relating to this question.
"With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means."
What this omits is the spells that you can eventually add to the Book of Shadows. It does not explicitly state that you are only able to ritual cast a ritual spell that is in the book, it only says this for the chosen spells.
However, the Invocation does explicitly state that the only spells you can add to the Book of Ancient Secrets are other Ritual spells. You can't add Fireball to the Book, for example, because Fireball is not a Ritual spell.
Also... you could have simply edited your other post instead of starting a new thread.
I honestly don't know how I created two threads lol. I'm wondering if it allows you to cast those ritual spells with a spell slot or only as a ritual.
It's pretty clearly intended to be similar to the ritualist feat (though with no class limits), and only grants ritual casting.
You already quoted the relevant part which tells you the answer:
If you learned them by other means then you can cast them using those other means. If you know them only from the book - you can only cast them as rituals.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
That refers to the two spells you get when you take the invocation. Doesn't refer to the spells you can add, which is in the next paragraph.
They apply to the entire contents of the book. The book is for ritual casting only.
If the extra spells you could add to it behaved differently to the original two - it would say so.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Probably because they follow the same rules. Normally, you can cast spells using spell slots. If you are given another means of casting those spells, ie ritual casting, then you can cast it in those ways as well. If that means places limitations on how it can be cast, then those limitations are a specific rule to override the general rule. Granting additional spells at a later time using the same feature would be adding spells in the same manner and would require clarification that they could be cast using the more general rule if that was intended.
It says "chosen two" because at the point of taking the invocation they are the only ones you get.
The rulings apply to any spells added which must be ritual spells - which is detailed twice specifically to ensure the context "this is about ritual casting".
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
The line about casting spells in other ways is because some ritual spells are on the Warlock spell list- if you learn those spells as Warlock spells, the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation lets you cast them as rituals in addition to using Warlock spell slots. You can't cast a spell you only know through the Book of Ancient Secrets using a spell slot.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Okay so what you all are saying is your own assumptions about what you think the rules are intended to mean. What I am saying is what it literally, as written, it does not say that. It is left up to interpretation. It says you can only cast the chosen two spells as rituals whereas the ritual caster feat says "You have learned a number of spells that you can cast as rituals." That is much more explicit that all the spells in the book can only be cast as rituals. The extra spells are listed after the fact and are not specifically stated to only be cast as rituals. It's just literally not there. I know its nit-picky but it seems like an intentional omission.
These are all assumptions made based on your own interpretations of the rules, Not explicitly what the rules state verbatim.
This sentence refers specifically to those two spells, hence it following mentioning those two spells. What isn't explicitly stated is "You can't cast spells in this book except as rituals, which would explicitly state that all spells in the book (besides the cantrips) can only be cast as rituals.
This is not the part of the sentence I am referring to. I am referring to the first part of the sentence, casting the two spells only as rituals.
This is perhaps the most thought out answer I have received and the one I agree with the most. It is still an assumption, an inferred one but it is well articulated. I still have to disagree based on opinion, since that is what this is, but it is very well thought out.
Okay, first. Selectively choosing what you want to belive is not the way rules work. Most everyone knows that the way it is written is stating that you can only add ritual spells
"You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows. Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class’s spell list (the two needn’t be from the same list). The spells appear in the book and don’t count against the number of spells you know. With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can’t cast the spells except as rituals, unless you’ve learned them by some other means. You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag.
On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell’s level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it."
Secondly, it is not an opinion, it is a fact that if you read it and also use D&D Beyond you will see that you can not cast those spells as anything else but rituals. I am sorry you feel like you should be right and that you dont want to listen to what others say but face it. You. Are. Wrong.
I know you can only inscribe rituals. Nowhere did I say you could inscribe non ritual spells in the book. It is just an odd choice of phrasing and words the way that it is written. I will stand with my opinion even if it's unpopular because to me it seems like an intentional omission and that's that, Also just because I don't want to agree with others doesn't mean I don't want to listen to them. Thank you for replying though.
Also side note, selectively choosing what you believe is what an opinion is. When the rules do not explicitly state something and everyone assumes it means one way or the other that's just a more popular opinion.
Logic Flow: Invocation says you learn 2 ritual spells and can only cast those spells as rituals. It plainly does not say something like "You can only ritual cast ritual spells in this book unless you learn them through some other source." It just doesn't say that. It's not an opinion. The assumed or inferred intent of this sentence is that any ritual spell in the book can only be cast as a ritual. That is an opinion. Later on it mentions that you can add other ritual spells to the book but does not specify that these ritual spells can only be cast as rituals. That is all I am saying. It seems like an intentional omission in my opinion. That is all I am saying.
The rule explicitly tells you how to treat ritual spells in the Book of Shadows and then gives you instructions on how to copy additional RITUAL spells into the Book of Shadows. The rule does not give different instructions for the later rituals. It states that the first spells in the book can only be cast as rituals unless you also obtain them from another source. What makes you think that the rules for additional ritual spells added to the Book of Shadows would be treated any differently than the first two? The rules do not say what you want them to say, they do not say that additional rituals are treated differently from the first two. You are trying to interpret the later spells to be treated differently based on the fact that the rule does not explicitly state that they are treated the same as the first two.
However, the wording of the description of the Book of Shadows seems pretty clear that the book is for casting ritual spells only.
"You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows."
"With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means."
Your entire argument is based on the fact that the text may only explicitly state what happens to the first two spells due to the use of "chosen spells" in this sentence. However, "chosen spells" could as easily be used to refer to ANY spells you have chosen to add to your Book of Shadows, either the first two or any other rituals you have scribed in the book. (though that requires a broader usage and is probably out of context).
"On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows."
Anyway, the bottom line is ask your DM but as you can see, most of the rest of the people here do not agree with your interpretation, and in all likelihood, your DM won't agree with that point of view either.
The rules may not say what I would like them to say but they also do not say what you would like them to say either. Being forced to say "the wording seems pretty clear means you are interpreting something that is not there, aka making an assumption and forming an opinion. Just because your opinion is backed up by more people doesn't make my opinion any less valid lol. At the end of the day all we can agree on is that it is not entirely specific about the additional ritual spells and that you need to decide one way or the other which is better or more fair.
This thread is not some sort of legal dissertation. You don't get to claim that there's wiggle room on the rules by trying to rules lawyer what language someone else used by claiming that that makes the actual rules (which are explicit) somehow open to interpretation- nobody's going to accept that as some sort of valid argument.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, if you want to take a really literal interpretation of the text, it doesn’t actually say you can cast additional spells you add to the book at all. The text says you can add ritual spells to the book, but it only actually explicitly gives you the ability to cast the ones you choose when you take the invocation.
It’s pretty clear then that the omission is not intentional; if it were, it would mean the designers thought it would be fun to let you write stuff down in your ritual book that you can do literally nothing else with.
What the text actually says: “You can cast the two spells you pick, as well as other warlock spells you know with the ritual tag, as rituals. You can add other ritual spells to the book but there’s nothing you can do with them.”
What everyone else in the thread is saying: “That’s obviously an oversight, the additional spells work the same way as the first two.”
What you seem to be saying: “No, they work some third way that’s mentioned literally nowhere.”
Yeah that's a pretty bad faith way to apply the rules. Sure, technically you could be construed to be right @Lavince, but that same level of technicality applied to absurd effect anywhere else in the rules would warp the game into something ridiculous and honestly not fun.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I think Saga made the point very well. If you try to read the rules as literally as you seem to want to ... then you can ONLY cast the first two spells you put in the book and those can only be cast as rituals. You can copy other spells into the book as much as you like but nowhere does the text say you can cast them at all. So the most literal reading is you get two spells and can copy others but can only cast the first two in the book.