I'd have to agree, Oathbreaker as its own subclass is strange, and honestly doesn't work out so great. Each of the individual Oaths should have their own version of Oathbreaker baked into it.
That would get... cumbersome to say the least.
It would be more design overhead when creating and testing, but it would be much more appropriate than having a single Oathbreaker subclass that suddenly gives any Paladin of any description the ability to command the undead and start laying out curses and magical diseases.
No, but the repercussions should be “player, I have some concerns about your character, can you help me understand what’s important to them or why they act this way? Is there a different Oath that might fit you better, or can you help me understand how you understand your path? Are you looking to role play one oath, but the mechanical features of another more closely fit the play style you want, is that the disconnect?”
Not “hey player, I don’t understand you, so I’m going to rewrite your character with no input from you, in hopes that you’ll quit my game or roll a new character. Also, that new class I’ve given you? It’s abilities are evil, and the party and NPCs will hate you if you use them. Bye!”
Good to know that we can have homicidal psychopathic child murdering paladins in dungeons & dragons and they do not suffer any consequences good job for the new writers lol.... anyway thank you for your support on clarifying the new mechanics of dungeons & dragons 5th .....
Still kind of up to the DM. If the paladin diverges so far from their Oath that they lose all of the abilities of a paladin, the DM can just turn them into a fighter. An Oathbreaker paladin reading the DMG, appears to me to be more than one who simply foregoes their oath, or only follows it sometimes, but actively seeks out a more evil path to utilize the power they derive from their oaths. Even a vengeance paladin can find themselves being merciful sometimes.
However, 5e has substantially changed the paladin from earlier editions, particularly 1e. They no longer have to be lawful good. The Oath of Devotion paladin is probably closest to the traditional paladin but even then there are a number of aspects to the Oath that make it clear that they don't have to play them as "Lawful Stupid".
Anyway, if you have a player that is essentially trying to be an evil paladin then make sure that they are keeping to the tenets of their oaths and their stated character alignment while doing so ... if not then let them know. Point out that their oath is where they derive their power as a paladin and without it they will no longer be a paladin. In addition, if your chaotic good character is randomly murdering and burning innocent families then again let them know that there will be consequences. They may not need the approval of a god to derive their power anymore but they do have to maintain their oath since that is where their power comes from (in 5e the paladin is more like a martial sorcerer deriving their magical abilities from the strength of their beliefs)
No, but the repercussions should be “player, I have some concerns about your character, can you help me understand what’s important to them or why they act this way? Is there a different Oath that might fit you better, or can you help me understand how you understand your path? Are you looking to role play one oath, but the mechanical features of another more closely fit the play style you want, is that the disconnect?”
Not “hey player, I don’t understand you, so I’m going to rewrite your character with no input from you, in hopes that you’ll quit my game or roll a new character. Also, that new class I’ve given you? It’s abilities are evil, and the party and NPCs will hate you if you use them. Bye!”
One presumes that several conversations have occurred between DM and player prior to “Hey player, you have continued to play contra to an oath you profess to want to play. Here is your new subclass, your abilities are evil, and the party and NPCs will hate you if you use them. If you want to get your old Oath abilities back, you will have to start fulfilling your Oath. Or you can make amends and swear a new Oath that fits your character better.”
Its just... say I play a bard, because I'm interested in handing out inspiration dice to the party and having my own spells, but I'm not actually that interested in talking to NPCs and I'm kind of an asshat murder hobo. Do my bard abilities get taken away, or is that an out-of-game issue (if indeed it's an issue at all?)
I'm a Life Cleric because the party wanted healing, but the entire game, I've never tried to talk to anyone about my god, nor have I made any effort to pray or receive guidance other than long resting to get spells. Any temptation for the DM to tear up my character sheet?
I'm a wise Wizard, 20 intelligence and decent wisdom, but me and the party rogue think its hillarious to get drunk in every tavern we come to and try to pickpocket the wenches and initimidate the guards unprovoked. Does the DM say I'm not roleplaying my intelligence, and start crossing spells out of my Spellbook?
No. No other class even remotely invites the DM to revoke or change class abilities, even Cleric or Warlock (as is being discussed in that other thread). Whatever the history of Paladins in D&D, they're just another class now, and class features aren't privileges that you have to suck up to the DM to keep. If a paladin player is in your group, let them play the way they want, or kick them out, but don't backseat drive their RP. If they took the Oath of Devotion but are playing like a murderhobo, there's a pretty strong chance that they took the class for its features and not its fluff header... unless you're holding every other member of the party to extreme RP requirements to justify their class abilities, don't single that guy out just because he picked a character that would give him a magic sword, save bonuses, and smites.
The thing is the entire class is all about making a promise to the universe so intense that you gain superpowers from it. If you break your promise to the universe that is giving you your powers because of that promise....
Of course, if a Cleric player at my table actively defies their dirty, they get the power shut off too. If a Warlock player screws over their patron, same deal. They say what they do, I tell them what happens next. If Action A leads to consequence B that’s not my fault as a DM anymore than them running off a cliff into an active volcano full of beholders it isn’t my fault if they die.
Its just... say I play a bard, because I'm interested in handing out inspiration dice to the party and having my own spells, but I'm not actually that interested in talking to NPCs and I'm kind of an asshat murder hobo. Do my bard abilities get taken away, or is that an out-of-game issue (if indeed it's an issue at all?)
I'm a Life Cleric because the party wanted healing, but the entire game, I've never tried to talk to anyone about my god, nor have I made any effort to pray or receive guidance other than long resting to get spells. Any temptation for the DM to tear up my character sheet?
I'm a wise Wizard, 20 intelligence and decent wisdom, but me and the party rogue think its hillarious to get drunk in every tavern we come to and try to pickpocket the wenches and initimidate the guards unprovoked. Does the DM say I'm not roleplaying my intelligence, and start crossing spells out of my Spellbook?
No. No other class even remotely invites the DM to revoke or change class abilities, even Cleric or Warlock (as is being discussed in that other thread). Whatever the history of Paladins in D&D, they're just another class now, and class features aren't privileges that you have to suck up to the DM to keep. If a paladin player is in your group, let them play the way they want, or kick them out, but don't backseat drive their RP. If they took the Oath of Devotion but are playing like a murderhobo, there's a pretty strong chance that they took the class for its features and not its fluff header... unless you're holding every other member of the party to extreme RP requirements to justify their class abilities, don't single that guy out just because he picked a character that would give him a magic sword, save bonuses, and smites.
The issue here isn't the character ... it is the player. Does the character class/principles/alignment/background support the murder hobo lifestyle that the player is choosing to play? Is the character of chaotic evil alignment? Is the character playing a class with any constraint against evil play? If not, the the player can choose to role play as a murder hobo without contradicting some fundamental aspects of their character as written.
However, if the player decides to have their good life cleric of a good diety, or good celestial warlock who is a follower of a Solar or a good aligned devotion paladin whose power comes from their oath ... turn around and slaughter a family burning them alive and then claim this is consistent with their oath then I'd have to say NO as a DM. Their is an inconsistency between how the character is supposed to be and how the player is choosing to role play it ... either the player needs to change or the character does and if the player doesn't want to change how they play then it is completely within the power of the DM to make the character consistent with how the player decides to play them. It has nothing to do with paladin oaths specifically but with any and every character class and concept in the PHB that has any kind of behavior associated with it as well as the alignment system that describes the characters general outlook on the world.
In the OPs specific example "The reason why I am asking was because I had a paladin who claimed to be chaotic good and he was a oath of devotion , he broke into a house , there was a family of five including three children ,he fought with the parents knocking over a lantern and burned the entire family alive everybody died except him." The player is NOT playing the character consistent with the defined alignment and character class archetype described in the players handbook.
TENETS OF DEVOTION Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets. Honesty. Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise. Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise. Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom. Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm. Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.
Many role playing constraints are placed on a player by choosing to play a paladin following a specifc oath. There are constraints on clerics, druids, some warlocks and other classes and it is part of the history of the game.
Anyway, the actions described by the OP aren't consistent with a good alignment never mind an Oath of Devotion paladin.
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So a player should be able to make a noble Oath of Redemption Paladin and be able to play as a murderhobo with no repercussions?
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It would be more design overhead when creating and testing, but it would be much more appropriate than having a single Oathbreaker subclass that suddenly gives any Paladin of any description the ability to command the undead and start laying out curses and magical diseases.
No, but the repercussions should be “player, I have some concerns about your character, can you help me understand what’s important to them or why they act this way? Is there a different Oath that might fit you better, or can you help me understand how you understand your path? Are you looking to role play one oath, but the mechanical features of another more closely fit the play style you want, is that the disconnect?”
Not “hey player, I don’t understand you, so I’m going to rewrite your character with no input from you, in hopes that you’ll quit my game or roll a new character. Also, that new class I’ve given you? It’s abilities are evil, and the party and NPCs will hate you if you use them. Bye!”
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Still kind of up to the DM. If the paladin diverges so far from their Oath that they lose all of the abilities of a paladin, the DM can just turn them into a fighter. An Oathbreaker paladin reading the DMG, appears to me to be more than one who simply foregoes their oath, or only follows it sometimes, but actively seeks out a more evil path to utilize the power they derive from their oaths. Even a vengeance paladin can find themselves being merciful sometimes.
However, 5e has substantially changed the paladin from earlier editions, particularly 1e. They no longer have to be lawful good. The Oath of Devotion paladin is probably closest to the traditional paladin but even then there are a number of aspects to the Oath that make it clear that they don't have to play them as "Lawful Stupid".
Anyway, if you have a player that is essentially trying to be an evil paladin then make sure that they are keeping to the tenets of their oaths and their stated character alignment while doing so ... if not then let them know. Point out that their oath is where they derive their power as a paladin and without it they will no longer be a paladin. In addition, if your chaotic good character is randomly murdering and burning innocent families then again let them know that there will be consequences. They may not need the approval of a god to derive their power anymore but they do have to maintain their oath since that is where their power comes from (in 5e the paladin is more like a martial sorcerer deriving their magical abilities from the strength of their beliefs)
One presumes that several conversations have occurred between DM and player prior to “Hey player, you have continued to play contra to an oath you profess to want to play. Here is your new subclass, your abilities are evil, and the party and NPCs will hate you if you use them. If you want to get your old Oath abilities back, you will have to start fulfilling your Oath. Or you can make amends and swear a new Oath that fits your character better.”
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Its just... say I play a bard, because I'm interested in handing out inspiration dice to the party and having my own spells, but I'm not actually that interested in talking to NPCs and I'm kind of an asshat murder hobo. Do my bard abilities get taken away, or is that an out-of-game issue (if indeed it's an issue at all?)
I'm a Life Cleric because the party wanted healing, but the entire game, I've never tried to talk to anyone about my god, nor have I made any effort to pray or receive guidance other than long resting to get spells. Any temptation for the DM to tear up my character sheet?
I'm a wise Wizard, 20 intelligence and decent wisdom, but me and the party rogue think its hillarious to get drunk in every tavern we come to and try to pickpocket the wenches and initimidate the guards unprovoked. Does the DM say I'm not roleplaying my intelligence, and start crossing spells out of my Spellbook?
No. No other class even remotely invites the DM to revoke or change class abilities, even Cleric or Warlock (as is being discussed in that other thread). Whatever the history of Paladins in D&D, they're just another class now, and class features aren't privileges that you have to suck up to the DM to keep. If a paladin player is in your group, let them play the way they want, or kick them out, but don't backseat drive their RP. If they took the Oath of Devotion but are playing like a murderhobo, there's a pretty strong chance that they took the class for its features and not its fluff header... unless you're holding every other member of the party to extreme RP requirements to justify their class abilities, don't single that guy out just because he picked a character that would give him a magic sword, save bonuses, and smites.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The thing is the entire class is all about making a promise to the universe so intense that you gain superpowers from it. If you break your promise to the universe that is giving you your powers because of that promise....
Of course, if a Cleric player at my table actively defies their dirty, they get the power shut off too. If a Warlock player screws over their patron, same deal. They say what they do, I tell them what happens next. If Action A leads to consequence B that’s not my fault as a DM anymore than them running off a cliff into an active volcano full of beholders it isn’t my fault if they die.
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Content Troubleshooting
The issue here isn't the character ... it is the player. Does the character class/principles/alignment/background support the murder hobo lifestyle that the player is choosing to play? Is the character of chaotic evil alignment? Is the character playing a class with any constraint against evil play? If not, the the player can choose to role play as a murder hobo without contradicting some fundamental aspects of their character as written.
However, if the player decides to have their good life cleric of a good diety, or good celestial warlock who is a follower of a Solar or a good aligned devotion paladin whose power comes from their oath ... turn around and slaughter a family burning them alive and then claim this is consistent with their oath then I'd have to say NO as a DM. Their is an inconsistency between how the character is supposed to be and how the player is choosing to role play it ... either the player needs to change or the character does and if the player doesn't want to change how they play then it is completely within the power of the DM to make the character consistent with how the player decides to play them. It has nothing to do with paladin oaths specifically but with any and every character class and concept in the PHB that has any kind of behavior associated with it as well as the alignment system that describes the characters general outlook on the world.
In the OPs specific example "The reason why I am asking was because I had a paladin who claimed to be chaotic good and he was a oath of devotion , he broke into a house , there was a family of five including three children ,he fought with the parents knocking over a lantern and burned the entire family alive everybody died except him." The player is NOT playing the character consistent with the defined alignment and character class archetype described in the players handbook.
TENETS OF DEVOTION
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.
Many role playing constraints are placed on a player by choosing to play a paladin following a specifc oath. There are constraints on clerics, druids, some warlocks and other classes and it is part of the history of the game.
Anyway, the actions described by the OP aren't consistent with a good alignment never mind an Oath of Devotion paladin.