If the Warlock player declares that their character will move to the space represented by the red square to get out of melee with the Elf and the two Zombies, then it fulfills the requirement for all three enemies to use their Reactions to take opportunity attacks against the Warlock.
If the Elf has the Sentinel Feat, they can stop the Warlock’s movement.
Because of the rules in Xanathar’s (which are entirely optional I might add), then the Warlock player can choose the order in which the three enemies attack.
So the debate is, if the Warlock player elects for the Elf to attack first, then by being forced not to move, the Zombies would no longer get to attack the Warlock because the Sentinel ability somehow undoes the trigger.
In a fight, everyone is constantly watching for a chance to strike an enemy who is fleeing or passing by. Such a strike is called an opportunity attack.
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. For example, you don't provoke an opportunity attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe's reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy.
That means that the zombies attack right before the Warlock leaves reach, and then it is still an active trigger for the Elf’s Opportunity Attack.
In that case, if I were controlling the Elf in that situation, I could simply let whoever was controlling the two Zombies declare their Opportunity Attacks first, let them get resolved, and then declare the Elf’s opportunity attack. Nothing in the rules says that all three Opportunity Attacks have to be declared at the same time, and nothing says they all have to be declared before any of them are resolved.
@Jhfffan Again, if you agree with statement one... that makes sense. again... 100% agree not fighting anyone on this.
I was just saying as a rule for any OA... If the creature is invisible... you don't get an OA... which OP stated you would, but at disadvantage. (seeing as this is a rules forum, I thought this should be pointed out)
Generally speaking, yes. I made a statement earlier that reflected (or was supposed to reflect) the scenario in my previous reply. It wasn't supposed to mean that the OA would happen regardless of circumstances on an invisible creature. In the context that we are describing and from the premise that I'm presenting, there would be a specific trumps general situation.
Hopefully, that clears up everything between our two statements and everyone can continue forward with mud stained glasses ;)
To be quite clear, I don’t care which order the OAs happen in, or whether they are simultaneous. The TRIGGER is simultaneously satisfied, entitling each character to make an OA whenever the DM says its their turn to do so. Nothing in the rules provides that a creature can “take back” their movement to untrigger an OA, voluntarily or as a result of having their speed forcefully dropped to 0.
Lots of things are simultaneous. Fireball cast on an area including Characters A and B? Simultaneous. Enemy casts a spell, and A and B are both in melee range with Mage Slayer? Simultaneous triggers. Movement away from A and B? Same thing..
Triggers don’t get untriggered. That’s my only assumption, and the crux of what this thread is about. Nothing in the rules says they can be.
Triggers don’t get untriggered. That’s my only assumption, and the crux of what this thread is about. Nothing in the rules says they can be.
Let's try this:
bad guy one on his turn: I'm going to ready an action... if anyone tries to attack me while I run away I'm going to turn invisible (or plane shift, misty step, etc.) Good guy uses his reaction for an opportunity attack on bad guy (Before this can occur) This triggers bad guys readied action (which is actually a reaction) to become invisible (or plane shift, misty step, etc.) because bad guy saw he was about to get attacked.
This scenario proves triggers can be untriggered based on these two rules. (But I've noted this like 4 times and you have just ignored it...)
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
Triggers don’t get untriggered. That’s my only assumption, and the crux of what this thread is about. Nothing in the rules says they can be.
Let's try this:
bad guy one on his turn: I'm going to ready an action... if anyone tries to attack me while I run away I'm going to turn invisible (or plane shift, misty step, etc.) Good guy uses his reaction for an opportunity attack on bad guy (Before this can occur) This triggers bad guys readied action (which is actually a reaction) to become invisible (or plane shift, misty step, etc.) because bad guy saw he was about to get attacked.
This scenario proves triggers can be untriggered based on these two rules. (But I've noted this like 4 times and you have just ignored it...)
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
That is incorrect:
Ready
Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it. Examples include "If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I'll pull the lever that opens it," and "If the goblin steps next to me, I move away."
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round.
When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell's magic requires concentration. If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile, your web spell ends, and if you take damage before you release magic missile with your reaction, your concentration might be broken.
So the Opportunity Attack would happen before the Invisibility kicked in.
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger<-- your words (which is a rule) if anyone tries to attack me while I run away I'm going to turn invisible <-- my words
"right after the trigger"... I did not say "when I get hit" I said, tries... could phrase this slightly better to get rid of the confusion (looks like they are going to attack me... if I see someone lift their hands in a spell pattern, if someone raises a weapon as I move, if anything happens when I start to move, etc. ... I turn invisible, plane shift, misty step, etc.)
word semantics aside... this would un-trigger a trigger
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger<-- your words (which is a rule) if anyone tries to attack me while I run away I'm going to turn invisible <-- my words
"right after the trigger"... I did not say "when I get hit" I said, tries...
“Tries to hit you” = “Makes an Attack”
The hitting would by default have to be part of that, and therefore would have to happen before the invisibility.
could phrase this slightly better to get rid of the confusion (looks like they are going to attack me... if I see someone lift their hands in a spell pattern, if someone raises a weapon as I move, if anything happens when I start to move, etc. ... I turn invisible, plane shift, misty step, etc.)
word semantics aside... this would un-trigger a trigger
In that case, the invisibility would occurs before the movement that triggers the Opportunity Attacks, so before they could even be declared in which case that trigger never happened at all.
It still does not un-trigger a trigger. It prevents the trigger from occurring in the first place. Not the same thing at all.
I tell you what. You go find me any one single instance in any book that specifically mentions anything to do with “un-triggering” anything and I’ll agree with you. I will accept different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever. I’ll wait here.
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger<-- your words (which is a rule) if anyone tries to attack me while I run away I'm going to turn invisible <-- my words
"right after the trigger"... I did not say "when I get hit" I said, tries... could phrase this slightly better to get rid of the confusion (looks like they are going to attack me... if I see someone lift their hands in a spell pattern, if someone raises a weapon as I move, if anything happens when I start to move, etc. ... I turn invisible, plane shift, misty step, etc.)
word semantics aside... this would un-trigger a trigger
If you are going to possibly use a spell slot while using your action, why wouldn't you simply use your action to disengage or cast your spell. I get wanting to save the spell slot, but using ready plus a spell and using disengage both use an action. If you suspect that someone has sentinel and you don't want to deal with it, just cast the spell.
As for the trigger, it has still been triggered. Just because a creature dies with one OA doesn't mean that the trigger didn't happen, it just means that there is no reason to use the reaction to act on the trigger. Likewise, just because the creature isn't there because it was able to teleport somehow doesn't mean the trigger didn't happen.
I tell you what. You go find me any one single instance in any book that specifically mentions anything to do with “un-triggering” anything and I’ll agree with you. I will accept different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever. I’ll wait here.
We don't have to. Just have a look at my example and explain to me why I would not dimension door away before the AoO if I ready it and declare that I will use the spell if my adversary intends to use an AoO on me, and he does (knowing that there is no way for him to know what I have prepared or the trigger that I'm using). This will untrigger his AoO, as there is no way it can be performed.
I will not accept any example you put forth trying to explain it away. I want a direct quote of RAW with a link to a sourcebook. You go find that and I’ll concede the point.
WOW triggered much? I've specifically been using that verbage @IamSposta because chicken was using it. You can get off your high horse and try and have a DISCUSSION or just leave.
You came into the conversation later. Chicken has been saying since page one things can't be "un-triggered". He can call it "untriggered"... but it's the same as "different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever" IMO... which is what I've been saying. A cause can have an effect which cancels a trigger.<-- IMO is the same as A cause can have an effect which un-triggers... a trigger.
Just like player one's OA killed bad guy... that cancels (untriggers) every other player who might have had an OA <--Technically that's another (back on topic discussion) because they still can stab the dead body if they think they will regen or something... IF the OA stands... even though bad guy did not move
I tell you what. You go find me any one single instance in any book that specifically mentions anything to do with “un-triggering” anything and I’ll agree with you. I will accept different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever. I’ll wait here.
We don't have to. Just have a look at my example and explain to me why I would not dimension door away before the AoO if I ready it and declare that I will use the spell if my adversary intends to use an AoO on me, and he does (knowing that there is no way for him to know what I have prepared or the trigger that I'm using). This will untrigger his AoO, as there is no way it can be performed.
So you've got a mind reader? I no action point a finger at you (that you can't see since you've turned to depart) and don't dimension door but do if I intend to use my reaction? Very meta.
@Jhfffan, it could be a bonus action to misty step, or a firbolgs innate ability... I dunno. it could happen. not saying it happens everyday... but it could :)
Also @Jhfffan: "that you can't see since you've turned to depart)" <--not necessarily true. No where does it state you turn your back. I've walked away backwards calmly flipping off a guy (who then stabbed me) I continued on walking backwards... but it was like walking away from an explosion without turning kinda moment. Made me feel super bad ass. Likewise you could... run around them (which technically does not turn their body) and go that way (it would still trigger OA... but based on what you said... you're a mind reader?)... AND... there's magic here.. they could be a mind reader lol
WOW triggered much? I've specifically been using that verbage @IamSposta because chicken was using it. You can get off your high horse and try and have a DISCUSSION or just leave.
You came into the conversation later. Chicken has been saying since page one things can't be "un-triggered". He can call it "untriggered"... but it's the same as "different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever" IMO... which is what I've been saying. A cause can have an effect which cancels a trigger.<-- IMO is the same as A cause can have an effect which un-triggers... a trigger.
Just like player one's OA killed bad guy... that cancels (untriggers) every other player who might have had an OA <--Technically that's another (back on topic discussion) because they still can stab the dead body if they think they will regen or something... IF the OA stands... even though bad guy did not move
I get what you are saying. What I am saying is you’re wrong. How is that for a “discussion?”
So you've got a mind reader? I no action point a finger at you (that you can't see since you've turned to depart) and don't dimension door but do if I intend to use my reaction? Very meta.
I've been in many fights including large ones in LARPs, and it's fairly easy to see if you intend to attack someone, in general, you know, or if you're planning to let them run away. If you're in melee range and I run away from you, if you start following me to stay in range, it's fairly obvious what you intend to do.
Regardless, tangent aside, teleporting or dying had nothing to do with the scenario that was given in the OP. DM controlled creature moved (presumably) in a way that triggered an OA for two PCs. The creature was attacked by a PC with sentinel and didn't die or teleport. The other PC (OP) had an open trigger for an OA and wanted to use it. Aside from DM fiat, that shouldn't have happened.
However, as Sposta pointed out, that could have been avoided had the OP simply declared their OA first and the sentinel player had waited to declare until the OPs OA was resolved.
As has been pointed out by Lyxen (for those following after) the DM could have avoided it if they had moved in a way to leave the players' reaches at different times or (as I pointed out) used the disengage action to prevent the OP from having an OA altogether.
Let us all learn the tactical lessons presented, and stop relying on the false hope that moving away from an opposing party member won't just provoke the OA, but that the character will take the OA and act accordingly if we are that terrified of the OA.
What I am saying is you’re wrong. How is that for a “discussion?”<-- That's not a discussion... because you literally said " I will accept different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever. "... which I just said I agree with you and ONLY using "untrigger" because I was trying to relate to some one else's verbiage. (because I'm actively trying to have a discussion/learn something) But fine...you disagree with me... but I agree with you :) I'm fine with that.
At this point you're a troll bringing nothing to the discussion
@All of you trying to say that teleport spells "untrigger" an OA: It does not "untrigger" the OA, it simply does not trigger the OA in the first place.
In regards to the original point: If someone moves away from multiple targets, those targets each get an opportunity attack. Those attacks happen simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously. When someone is moving away, those opportunity attacks are already happening. A creature tries to move and all adjacent hostile creatures make an opportunity attack. If multiple actions happen from a trigger, they happen at the same time. It's literally that simple.
@All of you trying to say that teleport spells "untrigger" an OA: It does not "untrigger" the OA, it simply does not trigger the OA in the first place.
In regards to the original point: If someone moves away from multiple targets, those targets each get an opportunity attack. Those attacks happen simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously. When someone is moving away, those opportunity attacks are already happening. A creature tries to move and all adjacent hostile creatures make an opportunity attack. If multiple actions happen from a trigger, they happen at the same time. It's literally that simple.
The specific reason for the untrigger discussion on the teleport stuff was that the casting of teleport happened in response to the OA and off of a readied action to do so. I don't get the feeling that anyone disagrees under normal circumstances.
IMO "It does not "untrigger" the OA, it simply does not trigger the OA in the first place" Is word semantics and I agree it does not trigger the OA in the first place if that's what you would rather say (I would too, as I don't think untrigger is a word)
However, "they happen at the same time. It's literally that simple."<-- is not a true statement IF you use Xanathar's rules. You even clarified earlier in that same post "Those attacks happen simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously." Which is 100% true... But sometimes D&D is stupid and it is a turn based game and very rarely do things actually happen 100% at the same time. Even in combat... everyone is combating(?) in the same 6 second round. untechnically it is all occurring at the same time... but it's not because rules say it happens on a turn.
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Let’s try this again:
🔲🔲🔲🔲🔲
🔲🔲🔲🟥🔲
🔲🧝♀️🦹🔲🔲
🔲🧟♂️🧟♀️🔲🔲
🔲🔲🔲🔲🔲
If the Warlock player declares that their character will move to the space represented by the red square to get out of melee with the Elf and the two Zombies, then it fulfills the requirement for all three enemies to use their Reactions to take opportunity attacks against the Warlock.
If the Elf has the Sentinel Feat, they can stop the Warlock’s movement.
Because of the rules in Xanathar’s (which are entirely optional I might add), then the Warlock player can choose the order in which the three enemies attack.
So the debate is, if the Warlock player elects for the Elf to attack first, then by being forced not to move, the Zombies would no longer get to attack the Warlock because the Sentinel ability somehow undoes the trigger.
Since Opportunity Attacks states:
That means that the zombies attack right before the Warlock leaves reach, and then it is still an active trigger for the Elf’s Opportunity Attack.
In that case, if I were controlling the Elf in that situation, I could simply let whoever was controlling the two Zombies declare their Opportunity Attacks first, let them get resolved, and then declare the Elf’s opportunity attack. Nothing in the rules says that all three Opportunity Attacks have to be declared at the same time, and nothing says they all have to be declared before any of them are resolved.
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Generally speaking, yes. I made a statement earlier that reflected (or was supposed to reflect) the scenario in my previous reply. It wasn't supposed to mean that the OA would happen regardless of circumstances on an invisible creature. In the context that we are describing and from the premise that I'm presenting, there would be a specific trumps general situation.
Hopefully, that clears up everything between our two statements and everyone can continue forward with mud stained glasses ;)
To be quite clear, I don’t care which order the OAs happen in, or whether they are simultaneous. The TRIGGER is simultaneously satisfied, entitling each character to make an OA whenever the DM says its their turn to do so. Nothing in the rules provides that a creature can “take back” their movement to untrigger an OA, voluntarily or as a result of having their speed forcefully dropped to 0.
Lots of things are simultaneous. Fireball cast on an area including Characters A and B? Simultaneous. Enemy casts a spell, and A and B are both in melee range with Mage Slayer? Simultaneous triggers. Movement away from A and B? Same thing..
Triggers don’t get untriggered. That’s my only assumption, and the crux of what this thread is about. Nothing in the rules says they can be.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I agree with you 100%, but even if Lyxen is correct, it is irrelevant since the OAs do not all need to be declared before any of them are resolved.
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Let's try this:
bad guy one on his turn: I'm going to ready an action... if anyone tries to attack me while I run away I'm going to turn invisible (or plane shift, misty step, etc.)
Good guy uses his reaction for an opportunity attack on bad guy
(Before this can occur)
This triggers bad guys readied action (which is actually a reaction) to become invisible (or plane shift, misty step, etc.) because bad guy saw he was about to get attacked.
This scenario proves triggers can be untriggered based on these two rules. (But I've noted this like 4 times and you have just ignored it...)
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
Opportunity Attacks
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
That is incorrect:
So the Opportunity Attack would happen before the Invisibility kicked in.
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When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger<-- your words (which is a rule)
if anyone tries to attack me while I run away I'm going to turn invisible <-- my words
"right after the trigger"... I did not say "when I get hit" I said, tries... could phrase this slightly better to get rid of the confusion (looks like they are going to attack me... if I see someone lift their hands in a spell pattern, if someone raises a weapon as I move, if anything happens when I start to move, etc. ... I turn invisible, plane shift, misty step, etc.)
word semantics aside... this would un-trigger a trigger
“Tries to hit you” = “Makes an Attack”
The hitting would by default have to be part of that, and therefore would have to happen before the invisibility.
In that case, the invisibility would occurs before the movement that triggers the Opportunity Attacks, so before they could even be declared in which case that trigger never happened at all.
It still does not un-trigger a trigger. It prevents the trigger from occurring in the first place. Not the same thing at all.
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I tell you what. You go find me any one single instance in any book that specifically mentions anything to do with “un-triggering” anything and I’ll agree with you. I will accept different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever. I’ll wait here.
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If you are going to possibly use a spell slot while using your action, why wouldn't you simply use your action to disengage or cast your spell. I get wanting to save the spell slot, but using ready plus a spell and using disengage both use an action. If you suspect that someone has sentinel and you don't want to deal with it, just cast the spell.
As for the trigger, it has still been triggered. Just because a creature dies with one OA doesn't mean that the trigger didn't happen, it just means that there is no reason to use the reaction to act on the trigger. Likewise, just because the creature isn't there because it was able to teleport somehow doesn't mean the trigger didn't happen.
I will not accept any example you put forth trying to explain it away. I want a direct quote of RAW with a link to a sourcebook. You go find that and I’ll concede the point.
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WOW triggered much? I've specifically been using that verbage @IamSposta because chicken was using it. You can get off your high horse and try and have a DISCUSSION or just leave.
You came into the conversation later. Chicken has been saying since page one things can't be "un-triggered". He can call it "untriggered"... but it's the same as "different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever" IMO... which is what I've been saying.
A cause can have an effect which cancels a trigger.<-- IMO is the same as A cause can have an effect which un-triggers... a trigger.
Just like player one's OA killed bad guy... that cancels (untriggers) every other player who might have had an OA <--Technically that's another (back on topic discussion) because they still can stab the dead body if they think they will regen or something... IF the OA stands... even though bad guy did not moveSo you've got a mind reader? I no action point a finger at you (that you can't see since you've turned to depart) and don't dimension door but do if I intend to use my reaction? Very meta.
@Jhfffan, it could be a bonus action to misty step, or a firbolgs innate ability... I dunno. it could happen. not saying it happens everyday... but it could :)
Also @Jhfffan: "that you can't see since you've turned to depart)" <--not necessarily true. No where does it state you turn your back. I've walked away backwards calmly flipping off a guy (who then stabbed me) I continued on walking backwards... but it was like walking away from an explosion without turning kinda moment. Made me feel super bad ass.
Likewise you could... run around them (which technically does not turn their body) and go that way (it would still trigger OA... but based on what you said... you're a mind reader?)... AND... there's magic here.. they could be a mind reader lol
I get what you are saying. What I am saying is you’re wrong. How is that for a “discussion?”
PS- I agreed with Chicken on page 1.
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Regardless, tangent aside, teleporting or dying had nothing to do with the scenario that was given in the OP. DM controlled creature moved (presumably) in a way that triggered an OA for two PCs. The creature was attacked by a PC with sentinel and didn't die or teleport. The other PC (OP) had an open trigger for an OA and wanted to use it. Aside from DM fiat, that shouldn't have happened.
However, as Sposta pointed out, that could have been avoided had the OP simply declared their OA first and the sentinel player had waited to declare until the OPs OA was resolved.
As has been pointed out by Lyxen (for those following after) the DM could have avoided it if they had moved in a way to leave the players' reaches at different times or (as I pointed out) used the disengage action to prevent the OP from having an OA altogether.
Let us all learn the tactical lessons presented, and stop relying on the false hope that moving away from an opposing party member won't just provoke the OA, but that the character will take the OA and act accordingly if we are that terrified of the OA.
What I am saying is you’re wrong. How is that for a “discussion?”<-- That's not a discussion... because you literally said " I will accept different verbiage such as “cancel a trigger” or “undo a trigger” or “nullify” or whatever. "... which I just said I agree with you and ONLY using "untrigger" because I was trying to relate to some one else's verbiage. (because I'm actively trying to have a discussion/learn something) But fine...you disagree with me... but I agree with you :) I'm fine with that.
At this point you're a troll bringing nothing to the discussion
@All of you trying to say that teleport spells "untrigger" an OA:
It does not "untrigger" the OA, it simply does not trigger the OA in the first place.
In regards to the original point:
If someone moves away from multiple targets, those targets each get an opportunity attack. Those attacks happen simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously. When someone is moving away, those opportunity attacks are already happening.
A creature tries to move and all adjacent hostile creatures make an opportunity attack. If multiple actions happen from a trigger, they happen at the same time. It's literally that simple.
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The specific reason for the untrigger discussion on the teleport stuff was that the casting of teleport happened in response to the OA and off of a readied action to do so. I don't get the feeling that anyone disagrees under normal circumstances.
IMO "It does not "untrigger" the OA, it simply does not trigger the OA in the first place" Is word semantics and I agree it does not trigger the OA in the first place if that's what you would rather say (I would too, as I don't think untrigger is a word)
However, "they happen at the same time. It's literally that simple."<-- is not a true statement IF you use Xanathar's rules. You even clarified earlier in that same post "Those attacks happen simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously." Which is 100% true... But sometimes D&D is stupid and it is a turn based game and very rarely do things actually happen 100% at the same time. Even in combat... everyone is combating(?) in the same 6 second round. untechnically it is all occurring at the same time... but it's not because rules say it happens on a turn.