Yeah, no speed -> no speed, Longstrider enhances speeds it does not grant them. But I'm pretty sure that all creatures that have a move speed of some sort (fly or swim) also have 0 ft [Walk] Speed listed. At least, so many do, that if there is one out there that doesn't it's most likely an error that should be errata'd, it seems to be by design that all creatures capable of motion have a Walk Speed, even if that speed is 0.
On a Spellcasters chart, whenever they don’t have slots of a certain level WotC never puts “0,” they put “—.” They made the conscious decision to specifically distinguish the fact that it’s not that “you have 0 slots of this level,” but specifically instead to say “you do not have slots of this level” by using a maddash in place of the number 0.
They specifically did not use that same format in the case of movement speeds. They obviously could have, but they just as obviously made the conscious decision not to do so.
As I found that point relevant to this discussion I thought I’d mention it.
Do you have a source for your information? Sigred presented statblocks too, but each one linked to the monster's entry on D&D Beyond. Where are you getting your information?
There seem to be a lot of people here not actually looking at a) the spell and b) the animals in question.
I am almost certain that every single creature in the Monster Manual has a 'walking' speed. It may have been created as an artifact of the process (i.e. a database field needed an entry), but it is there.
It is clear if a creature had a walking speed of 1, then longstrider would make it 11. I see no reason not to increase the walking speed from 0 to 10.
For me the real problem is not the fish etc. Instead it is the creatures with NO SPEED AT ALL.
The Carnivorous Plant, the Shrieker, The Guardian Portrait, and the large Mimic found in Rick and Morty. I believe that the Large Mimic was simply an error, it should have a speed of 15 like the Large Mimic from Mad Mage.
I would definitely let a Shark waggle it's way forward at 10 ft, and Rick's Large Mimic as well. But I can not see the Carnivorous Plant, the Shrieker Mushroom or the Guardian Portrait construct move at all.
That would be my personal House Rule, preventing those creatures from benefiting from from Longstrider.
Also this is a good point about no speed at all. Only thing is, sharks, as I said before, have no walking speed, not 0. I would probably allow it, I'm just saying that's RAW.
Friend, all you've done is copy and paste a completely unsourced statblock that for we all know you removed the land speed from yourself. At this point I'm not sure it'll help, but here's a picture from the actual Monster Manual, if D&D Beyond isn't reliable enough for you.
I checked for the sake of curiosity, and in the Roll20 compendium swimming creatures really don't have their base movement speed (walking speed) listed, which is super weird. What might be even weirder is that the Shriekerdoes have its 0ft. speed listed. *Shrug*
This doesn't matter though, because the Roll20 compendium is not official in any capacity.
Roll20 Compendium is not an official source. Printed books & the DDB Compendium are official sources, and the verifiable info from those sources has been clearly posted multiple times now. There's no argument to be made here. We are telling you that your position is incorrect, and we have definitively shown this to be true with verifiable evidence.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sounds like an honest mistake. But it is a good reminder, folks, that dndbeyond.com forum tags are there for a reason, so when you're discussing a Spell, Creature, or Rule do everyone a favor and throw down a tag or even a link to the dndbeyond page for it, so that we're all working on the same assumptions.
Longstrider still does not grant any means of breathing for a shark. Thus, by RAW, suffocation sets in pretty fast.
And allowing a 1st level spell slot to grant the ability for a creature only adapted to living in water to spend any significant time on land wil likely have implications you at your game table that you are not thinking about, such as granting regular Humans a 10 foot flight speed by other means from level 1. Like I said, there is a reason that Water Breathing is a 3rd level spell, folks.
Longstrider still does not grant any means of breathing for a shark. Thus, by RAW, suffocation sets in pretty fast.
And allowing a 1st level spell slot to grant the ability for a creature only adapted to living in water to spend any significant time on land wil likely have implications you at your game table that you are not thinking about, such as granting regular Humans a 10 foot flight speed by other means from level 1. Like I said, there is a reason that Water Breathing is a 3rd level spell, folks.
Yes, and? We are talking about Longstrider here, not about the practicality of sharks living out of water. No one is saying it grants air breathing. And humans are not listed with any 0' flight speed.
The "And" is what's the point of a creature having a land movement speed when it can't actually use it.
Also, as ChickenChamp pointed out, several fungus and plant creatures with no means of movement whatsoever also have a listed speed of 0. Therefore, it's possible that the Speed 0' listed for creatures like the Reef Shark also means they are not meant to have any land movement whatsoever, but the designers probably never considered applying a spell that's called Landstrider to a creature like that, just like they didn't consider how concentration would impact Mordenkainen's Sword.
On a Spellcasters chart, whenever they don’t have slots of a certain level WotC never puts “0,” they put “—.” They made the conscious decision to specifically distinguish the fact that it’s not that “you have 0 slots of this level,” but specifically instead to say “you do not have slots of this level” by using a maddash in place of the number 0.
They specifically did not use that same convention in the case of movement speeds. They obviously could have, but they just as obviously made the conscious decision not to do so.
As I found that point relevant to this discussion I thought I’d mention it.
They specifically did not use that same format in the case of movement speeds. They obviously could have, but they just as obviously made the conscious decision not to do so.
We don't know whether or not it was a conscious decision. Unless someone poses the question directly to the devs and get a response, we cannot safely assume either way when it's already clear there are a lot of potential spell and object interactions the devs did not clearly think through when they built or edited past content to fit into 5e. Again, look at Mordenkainen's Sword. Look at how Boars have no bonus or advantage to Perception based on smells. Look at the Armor wearing ability of Tenser's Transformation. 5e is rife with questions about conscious intent.
Okay. So why doesn’t someone with a Twitter account (not me as I don’t have one) hit up JC and ask if Longstrider increases a Giant Shark’s movement speed from 0 to 10 feet?
Oh, I’m not against Song_of_Blues. Is it RAW? Yes. Is it RAI? 🤷♂️ Should Blues disallow it if they find it ridiculous? Absolutely.
Of course he can disallow it in his campaign if he finds it ridiculous. I still do not understand all the hand-wringing over a situation never likely to come up at all in the vast majority of campaigns.
Most of the debates on this forum (not the questions, but the actual debates) center on situations that are unlikely to arise in the majority of campaigns, lol
Most plant creatures can move anyway, and I have no problem with Longstrider helping those with 0 speed just as the shark is.
The world is against you, Blue, Longstrider lets sharks flop up a beach (while holding their breath)
I think my track record on these rules debates is very questionable, myself. That doesn' t discourage me from debating, however. My view is that since Sharks are creatures that exist in the real world and not fantasy creatures like Unicorns or Trolls or Dragons, I will stand by basic biology and say that sharks do not have cheek muscles the way we do and many large predatory sharks (like the Great White Shark) cannot even breathe unless they are actively passing water over their gills.
Also "flopping" is not the same thing as walking in the slightest, which is why most fish are so helpless on land. During the salmon spawning season, bears used to be able to go to many rivers along the Pacific Northwest and flip them out of the water as easily as people flip pancakes. Didn't even need to bite them because they would be so helpless once out of water. Giving increased land movement to a species that has exactly Zero instinct, physical structures or learned behavior for moving on land and expecting that fish to walk is like expecting a 3 year old to do a swing from a chandelier. Walking has to be hard wired into the brain and practiced. Babies already have some of that wiring and they still have to practice it over and over again to walk in anything like a straight line. Suddenly imbuing a shark with the theoretical ability to walk does not make up for the lack of grey matter and experience adapted to that purpose.
Of course he can disallow it in his campaign if he finds it ridiculous. I still do not understand all the hand-wringing over a situation never likely to come up at all in the vast majority of campaigns.
Also, please do not go around assuming the gender of people you are writing to. I am not a man.
Thank you all for four pages of an amazing conversation regarding land moving sharks.
What I am disappointed about is not one person brought up Jabberjaw. Right there is your land walking shark. Children of the late 70's will/should/hopefully get the reference.
Seriously though this is a fascinating conversation and especially relevant to my game as I have a player who Wizard uses Longstrider quite often.
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Yeah, no speed -> no speed, Longstrider enhances speeds it does not grant them. But I'm pretty sure that all creatures that have a move speed of some sort (fly or swim) also have 0 ft [Walk] Speed listed. At least, so many do, that if there is one out there that doesn't it's most likely an error that should be errata'd, it seems to be by design that all creatures capable of motion have a Walk Speed, even if that speed is 0.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Look at it this way:
On a Spellcasters chart, whenever they don’t have slots of a certain level WotC never puts “0,” they put “—.” They made the conscious decision to specifically distinguish the fact that it’s not that “you have 0 slots of this level,” but specifically instead to say “you do not have slots of this level” by using a maddash in place of the number 0.
They specifically did not use that same format in the case of movement speeds. They obviously could have, but they just as obviously made the conscious decision not to do so.
As I found that point relevant to this discussion I thought I’d mention it.
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Do you have a source for your information? Sigred presented statblocks too, but each one linked to the monster's entry on D&D Beyond. Where are you getting your information?
Blood Frenzy. The shark has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Water Breathing. The shark can breathe only underwater.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) piercing damage.
It’s also listed in the physical book as well, I just checked.
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Friend, all you've done is copy and paste a completely unsourced statblock that for we all know you removed the land speed from yourself. At this point I'm not sure it'll help, but here's a picture from the actual Monster Manual, if D&D Beyond isn't reliable enough for you.
I checked for the sake of curiosity, and in the Roll20 compendium swimming creatures really don't have their base movement speed (walking speed) listed, which is super weird. What might be even weirder is that the Shrieker does have its 0ft. speed listed. *Shrug*
This doesn't matter though, because the Roll20 compendium is not official in any capacity.
Roll20 Compendium is not an official source. Printed books & the DDB Compendium are official sources, and the verifiable info from those sources has been clearly posted multiple times now. There's no argument to be made here. We are telling you that your position is incorrect, and we have definitively shown this to be true with verifiable evidence.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Just go to your PHB. Page 309, bottom right corner. Reef Shark clearly has a Speed 0 ft.
If you do not own a PHB, I will ignore you.
Sounds like an honest mistake. But it is a good reminder, folks, that dndbeyond.com forum tags are there for a reason, so when you're discussing a Spell, Creature, or Rule do everyone a favor and throw down a tag or even a link to the dndbeyond page for it, so that we're all working on the same assumptions.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Longstrider still does not grant any means of breathing for a shark. Thus, by RAW, suffocation sets in pretty fast.
And allowing a 1st level spell slot to grant the ability for a creature only adapted to living in water to spend any significant time on land wil likely have implications you at your game table that you are not thinking about, such as granting regular Humans a 10 foot flight speed by other means from level 1. Like I said, there is a reason that Water Breathing is a 3rd level spell, folks.
The "And" is what's the point of a creature having a land movement speed when it can't actually use it.
Also, as ChickenChamp pointed out, several fungus and plant creatures with no means of movement whatsoever also have a listed speed of 0. Therefore, it's possible that the Speed 0' listed for creatures like the Reef Shark also means they are not meant to have any land movement whatsoever, but the designers probably never considered applying a spell that's called Landstrider to a creature like that, just like they didn't consider how concentration would impact Mordenkainen's Sword.
Look at it this way:
On a Spellcasters chart, whenever they don’t have slots of a certain level WotC never puts “0,” they put “—.” They made the conscious decision to specifically distinguish the fact that it’s not that “you have 0 slots of this level,” but specifically instead to say “you do not have slots of this level” by using a maddash in place of the number 0.
They specifically did not use that same convention in the case of movement speeds. They obviously could have, but they just as obviously made the conscious decision not to do so.
As I found that point relevant to this discussion I thought I’d mention it.
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We don't know whether or not it was a conscious decision. Unless someone poses the question directly to the devs and get a response, we cannot safely assume either way when it's already clear there are a lot of potential spell and object interactions the devs did not clearly think through when they built or edited past content to fit into 5e. Again, look at Mordenkainen's Sword. Look at how Boars have no bonus or advantage to Perception based on smells. Look at the Armor wearing ability of Tenser's Transformation. 5e is rife with questions about conscious intent.
Okay. So why doesn’t someone with a Twitter account (not me as I don’t have one) hit up JC and ask if Longstrider increases a Giant Shark’s movement speed from 0 to 10 feet?
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Most plant creatures can move anyway, and I have no problem with Longstrider helping those with 0 speed just as the shark is.
The world is against you, Blue, Longstrider lets sharks flop up a beach (while holding their breath)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Oh, I’m not against Song_of_Blues. Is it RAW? Yes. Is it RAI? 🤷♂️ Should Blues disallow it if they find it ridiculous? Absolutely.
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Most of the debates on this forum (not the questions, but the actual debates) center on situations that are unlikely to arise in the majority of campaigns, lol
I think my track record on these rules debates is very questionable, myself. That doesn' t discourage me from debating, however. My view is that since Sharks are creatures that exist in the real world and not fantasy creatures like Unicorns or Trolls or Dragons, I will stand by basic biology and say that sharks do not have cheek muscles the way we do and many large predatory sharks (like the Great White Shark) cannot even breathe unless they are actively passing water over their gills.
Also "flopping" is not the same thing as walking in the slightest, which is why most fish are so helpless on land. During the salmon spawning season, bears used to be able to go to many rivers along the Pacific Northwest and flip them out of the water as easily as people flip pancakes. Didn't even need to bite them because they would be so helpless once out of water. Giving increased land movement to a species that has exactly Zero instinct, physical structures or learned behavior for moving on land and expecting that fish to walk is like expecting a 3 year old to do a swing from a chandelier. Walking has to be hard wired into the brain and practiced. Babies already have some of that wiring and they still have to practice it over and over again to walk in anything like a straight line. Suddenly imbuing a shark with the theoretical ability to walk does not make up for the lack of grey matter and experience adapted to that purpose.
Also, please do not go around assuming the gender of people you are writing to. I am not a man.
Holy Grail!
Thank you all for four pages of an amazing conversation regarding land moving sharks.
What I am disappointed about is not one person brought up Jabberjaw. Right there is your land walking shark. Children of the late 70's will/should/hopefully get the reference.
Seriously though this is a fascinating conversation and especially relevant to my game as I have a player who Wizard uses Longstrider quite often.