"Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act automatically negates the Effect of the spell."
Does the following suggestion consider an obviously harmful act to a hustle creature?
"Attack my ally Paladin at melee range until he is unconscious as fast as you could and ignore any other things."
The rules of the spell are: "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell."
The examples given are all all harm directed at themselves, but the actual rule is "obviously harmful" and "must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable" I would rule that the "suggestion" you have presented is both unreasonable (particularly in that you are phrasing it as a command and say "ignore any other things" which seems an odd and unreasonable request) and harmful (either to himself or the paladin; while the examples are all self directed, this suggestion is obviously harmful to someone).
I would not allow this at my table. In general where a course of action must sound reasonable I encourage my players to use persuasive words in their wording. You have "a sentence (or two)", so something like this: "That guy (the paladin) looks pretty evil. Killing him would be wrong, but why don't you beat him into submission so he doesn't harm anyone else" That doesn't solve the "harmful" aspect of the rule, so it still wouldn't work for this spell, but it is a better example of a "reasonable" course of action.
I find the easiest way to resolve Suggestion as a DM is to ask myself the question "could this be something they could persuade them to do with a Persuasion check?" - if yes then suggestion holds essentially being an automatic success on such a check. If the suggestion is something they could never persuade the character to do with a persuasion check then the suggestion fails.
This tactic works best NPC targets though, of course.
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I find the easiest way to resolve Suggestion as a DM is to ask myself the question "could this be something they could persuade them to do with a Persuasion check?" - if yes then suggestion holds essentially being an automatic success on such a check. If the suggestion is something they could never persuade the character to do with a persuasion check then the suggestion fails.
For me, that is too hard on a real spell, level 2 on top of that. What is the point of casting a spell which entitles a saving throw when you could just do a persuasion check with about the same chance of success.
I agree that OP's suggestion is probably too harshly worded, but the example of "not reasonable" given in the spell description are only about self-harm, not even harming others.
Also remember that the target is charmed by a stronger spell than charm person (level 2 instead of level 1 and for a specific action rather than an overall liking), so for me it's much more than a simple persuasion check.
I think my interpretation on the wording of the spell is that it needs to be worded the same way you might word an attempt at persuasion, but there is no threshold for "impossibility" unless the harm rule comes into play. So its not just a "persuasion check" in spell form because you can make someone do something completely unreasonable (like give their horse up to a complete stranger, per the in-spell example), it just has to be worded as if it were reasonable. (ultimately, 'reasonable' is left up to the DM so there should be different thresholds depending on the DM's interpretation)
On the "harmful" rule, I did think about the fact that all of the examples were self-harm, but I'm differentiating between the rule "Obviously harmful" and the examples provided. But in this case, even if you rule the "harmful" rule as only encompassing harm to the target, I would say the first time the paladin strikes back for any damage whatsoever would cause the spell to immediately end (as the target has then been harmed by his action). I do believe though that the RAI on this is that it cannot cause a violent act (which is reserved for higher level spells like Geas)
I find the easiest way to resolve Suggestion as a DM is to ask myself the question "could this be something they could persuade them to do with a Persuasion check?" - if yes then suggestion holds essentially being an automatic success on such a check. If the suggestion is something they could never persuade the character to do with a persuasion check then the suggestion fails.
This tactic works best NPC targets though, of course.
I would say it works somewhat differently than use of the Persuasion skill because you can also implant false information into the target's mind as part of the spell. Persuasion can be effective to convince someone to take an action they are at least somewhat willing to do given what they know. Because the Suggestion spell can be a long phrase or two sentences, you can use it to provide false information to the target, which the target then believes if the information is credible in any way. Tell your target that his co-worker slept with their husband/wife and that now it's payback time. Tell your target that some adventurer left a chest with a 1000 gold pieces at the bottom of ravine and that now would be the best time to find a way to go get it. It doesn't matter that there is no evidence to either of those two statements whatsoever - the spell fills in the blanks in the target creature's mind so that the course of action seems reasonable as long as it isn't clearly going to cause self-harm.
I find the easiest way to resolve Suggestion as a DM is to ask myself the question "could this be something they could persuade them to do with a Persuasion check?" - if yes then suggestion holds essentially being an automatic success on such a check. If the suggestion is something they could never persuade the character to do with a persuasion check then the suggestion fails.
This tactic works best NPC targets though, of course.
I would say it works somewhat differently than use of the Persuasion skill because you can also implant false information into the target's mind as part of the spell. Persuasion can be effective to convince someone to take an action they are at least somewhat willing to do given what they know. Because the Suggestion spell can be a long phrase or two sentences, you can use it to provide false information to the target, which the target then believes if the information is credible in any way. Tell your target that his co-worker slept with their husband/wife and that now it's payback time. Tell your target that some adventurer left a chest with a 1000 gold pieces at the bottom of ravine and that now would be the best time to find a way to go get it. It doesn't matter that there is no evidence to either of those two statements whatsoever - the spell fills in the blanks in the target creature's mind so that the course of action seems reasonable as long as it isn't clearly going to cause self-harm.
I agree, a Suggestion i've come up with against a BBEG is "You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Two sentences that now locks the bad guy up for life, or at least gets them to travel far distances "as fast as they can" so they are far enough from the party.
...for up to 8 hours, or until anyone in the party hurts the target. If your arc culminates with a non-violent confrontation with the BBEG, that's cool.
...for up to 8 hours, or until anyone in the party hurts the target. If your arc culminates with a non-violent confrontation with the BBEG, that's cool.
.. for up to 8 hours, or the caster loses concentration, or until anyone in the party hurts the target...
and then the BBEG comes back to deal with you (since I'm fairly sure that a "course of activity" wouldn't include forgetting something).
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"Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act automatically negates the Effect of the spell."
Does the following suggestion consider an obviously harmful act to a hustle creature?
"Attack my ally Paladin at melee range until he is unconscious as fast as you could and ignore any other things."
The rules of the spell are: "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell."
The examples given are all all harm directed at themselves, but the actual rule is "obviously harmful" and "must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable" I would rule that the "suggestion" you have presented is both unreasonable (particularly in that you are phrasing it as a command and say "ignore any other things" which seems an odd and unreasonable request) and harmful (either to himself or the paladin; while the examples are all self directed, this suggestion is obviously harmful to someone).
I would not allow this at my table. In general where a course of action must sound reasonable I encourage my players to use persuasive words in their wording. You have "a sentence (or two)", so something like this: "That guy (the paladin) looks pretty evil. Killing him would be wrong, but why don't you beat him into submission so he doesn't harm anyone else" That doesn't solve the "harmful" aspect of the rule, so it still wouldn't work for this spell, but it is a better example of a "reasonable" course of action.
I find the easiest way to resolve Suggestion as a DM is to ask myself the question "could this be something they could persuade them to do with a Persuasion check?" - if yes then suggestion holds essentially being an automatic success on such a check. If the suggestion is something they could never persuade the character to do with a persuasion check then the suggestion fails.
This tactic works best NPC targets though, of course.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I think my interpretation on the wording of the spell is that it needs to be worded the same way you might word an attempt at persuasion, but there is no threshold for "impossibility" unless the harm rule comes into play. So its not just a "persuasion check" in spell form because you can make someone do something completely unreasonable (like give their horse up to a complete stranger, per the in-spell example), it just has to be worded as if it were reasonable. (ultimately, 'reasonable' is left up to the DM so there should be different thresholds depending on the DM's interpretation)
On the "harmful" rule, I did think about the fact that all of the examples were self-harm, but I'm differentiating between the rule "Obviously harmful" and the examples provided. But in this case, even if you rule the "harmful" rule as only encompassing harm to the target, I would say the first time the paladin strikes back for any damage whatsoever would cause the spell to immediately end (as the target has then been harmed by his action). I do believe though that the RAI on this is that it cannot cause a violent act (which is reserved for higher level spells like Geas)
I would say it works somewhat differently than use of the Persuasion skill because you can also implant false information into the target's mind as part of the spell. Persuasion can be effective to convince someone to take an action they are at least somewhat willing to do given what they know. Because the Suggestion spell can be a long phrase or two sentences, you can use it to provide false information to the target, which the target then believes if the information is credible in any way. Tell your target that his co-worker slept with their husband/wife and that now it's payback time. Tell your target that some adventurer left a chest with a 1000 gold pieces at the bottom of ravine and that now would be the best time to find a way to go get it. It doesn't matter that there is no evidence to either of those two statements whatsoever - the spell fills in the blanks in the target creature's mind so that the course of action seems reasonable as long as it isn't clearly going to cause self-harm.
I would definitely let them use this suggestion, which is pretty close to what you wanted:
I suggest:
"The Paladin is well armored, can heal, cast spells, and can Smite on a hit. He is the biggest threat, take him out FIRST!"
I agree, a Suggestion i've come up with against a BBEG is "You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Two sentences that now locks the bad guy up for life, or at least gets them to travel far distances "as fast as they can" so they are far enough from the party.
...for up to 8 hours, or until anyone in the party hurts the target. If your arc culminates with a non-violent confrontation with the BBEG, that's cool.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
.. for up to 8 hours, or the caster loses concentration, or until anyone in the party hurts the target...
and then the BBEG comes back to deal with you (since I'm fairly sure that a "course of activity" wouldn't include forgetting something).