Our group will be trying out 5e for the first time in October. I've rolled a Halfling Rogue. So what is the best procedure for combat? At level one, I won't be getting in the thick of things much. As my understanding of the rules, hide takes an action, so the - Move, Attack, Move, Hide, will not work correct? What is the best solution for staying out of the mix, but still feel like i'm doing my part? I know at level 2 I get Cunning action, that will give me a bonus action. So, in what way can I make use of this? Plus being a Halfling I have Nimbleness, and Natural Stealthy. I feel like I could use allies that are larger than me to hide behind. How does the AOO work with Nimbleness?
It sort of depends on your party composition. Did you take the shortbow for starting equipment so you can do some ranged damage or did you go swords because your party needs a melee presence? If you have the shortbow or are ok throwing and retrieving your daggers you can do some decent poke damage from afar. Keep in mind you'll still get sneak attack damage with a ranged attack if you have advantage on the attack or another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
If the field of battle has options for you to get cover, you may not be able to hide as an action if you attacked but at least you can provide yourself some cover from an enemy. That means the enemy needs to either move to hit you or try to attack you while you are under some degree of cover.
Nimbleness allows you to move through spaces of any creature that is of a size larger than yours so it doesn't really provide you with stealth. It just means that you don't have to waste movement going around these people (though if your DM is allowing flanking, it could be a good way to use less movement to gain advantage on your attack).
Nimbleness really doesn't provide you with any benefits for Attack of Opportunity. As it is based on a hostile creature's turn, it only applies if a hostile creature you can see moves out of your reach (melee range) and didn't use the disengage action (and you don't have the Sentinal feat). If you didn't already use your reaction you get to make a melee attack (or spell attack if you have the War Caster feat) before they leave your melee range.
Natural Stealthy still requires you to hide as an action. Its benefit is that you can now use creatures that are a size larger than you to hide behind where others might only benefit from partial cover.
At level 1, you are really limited, you want to make sure you attack enemies that are next to your allies (that allows you sneak attack dice).
At level 2 you can hide as a bonus action, so the usual idea is something like First turn: Attack, Hide (so you remain hidden through the badguys turn), then repeat, you lose the unseen bonus on first attack, but gain the bonus of being hidden while it isn't your turn.
That said you may find yourself in a number of other situations, you can use your bonus action to disengage or dash to better position yourself or chase after someone, or run away (bravely!)
Just remember you mainly want to attack when you have advantage or when an ally is next to a target so that you always have your sneak attack bonus if possible. That means you may want to occasionally ready an action to shoot at the first target your ally engages. Furthermore, if you are feeling brave, you may be using your bonus actions on offhand attacks, taking two short swords into battle means you have 2 chances to hit your target, and trigger those all important sneak attack dice.
You may choose to be more cautious, and always stay at least 20 feet back and plink away with a light crossbow. It is all up to you, how you want your character to act, risk/reward and such.
Don't bother with "Move, Hide; Attack, Move; Move, Hide..." That means you're only attacking every other round for the hope (you don't blow your Hide roll) to get Adv on an attack.
This means you MIGHT have 2d20 drop the lowest every other turn OR you could just have 1d20 every round. Your DPS will be much higher with the 2nd.
As the other people said, use your movement to keep out of the reach of the enemy if you can. Use a LightCrossbow instead of a Shortbow, a Rogue never gets a 2nd attack as part of the Attack Action so the Loading property doesn't matter and it has another die size on it. It's better then the HandCrossbow because it has a lot more range, which matters for keep Sneak Attack. It's Two-Handed, but not Heavy so being a Halfling isn't a problem.
When you get Cunning Action you have a lot of choices open up.
If you want to stay ranged and someone engages you in melee: Bonus Action: Disengage, Move, Attack Action: Ranged Attack so you aren't locked in combat and no AoO.
If you want to dart into combat (amazing if your GM is using the DMG rules for Flanking): Bonus Action: Disengage, Move, Attack Action: Melee Attack (rapier?), Move. This way you keep darting into combat striking the enemy from behind and fading out. If they want to engage you they have to draw an AoO from your fighters. The Flanking rule from the DMG gives you Adv on the attack, so you're more likely to hit.
2 Two Weapon Fighting: get stuck into combat and lets the dice fall as they may, be a vicious little ankle biter. This is nice because you get 2 attacks a round so you hedge your bets on Sneak Attack (remember you only get 1 Sneak Attack a Turn, but not round!) You won't get your ability mods on the damage for the 2nd attack without a multiclass into a more martial class.
Note: You will need to have some risk for some reward. If the enemies are in combat and you are behind your allies, they are providing at least 50% cover, maybe 75%, giving the enemy +2, or +5 AC! The Sharpshooter feat will negate this flaw... then you could Sneak Attack from 320' away with a LightCrossbow!
5e monsters and feeling is heavy on melee fighting. Rogue ≠ melee. Fortunately, 5e also removed most of the limits on ranged attacks into melee. Optimize you range attacks to kill everything that closes on your melee fighters. Shortbow is your friend because it does NOT have "reload" property. Remember, cunning action in the future is better use of bonus action than reloading your crossbow!
Second, stay near casters. You can melee better than them IF something goes wrong. Save the ones that cast Faerie Fire and heal you!
I played a halfling rogue and it can be a lot of fun if you seek your role well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Shortbow is your friend because it does NOT have "reload" property. Remember, cunning action in the future is better use of bonus action than reloading your crossbow!
5e monsters and feeling is heavy on melee fighting. Rogue ≠ melee. Fortunately, 5e also removed most of the limits on ranged attacks into melee. Optimize you range attacks to kill everything that closes on your melee fighters. Shortbow is your friend because it does NOT have "reload" property. Remember, cunning action in the future is better use of bonus action than reloading your crossbow!
Second, stay near casters. You can melee better than them IF something goes wrong. Save the ones that cast Faerie Fire and heal you!
I played a halfling rogue and it can be a lot of fun if you seek your role well.
I heavily disagree that Rogues aren’t melee. I played a Swashbuckler with Booming Blade to great success. Also took the Mobility feat and some levels in fighter.
I don't mean to disparage any other character. We have a swashbuckler melee in SKT and an arcane trickster (bow) rogue in my Homebrew. Swashbuckler can be very useful. But their damage output has been equal.
Broad answer: in analysis of the 5e monster manual and the play I have seen, most comfortable is melee heavy. Staying out of opponents reach and deal damage is very useful. I realize all rogues 2nd and above can use bonus action to disengage, but the rogue out of melee has more options. And also is in less AoE, needs less healing, etc.
Narrow answer: the question was for a halfling (move 25'). I think less movement offsets the advantage of swashbuckler. Our swashbuckler is a tabaxi, and the extra movement options work well with the swashbuckler special abilities. I might be wrong here, but our swashbuckler runs into trouble when he runs out of movement distance. I am guessing a halfling would be tougher and take more opponent attacks than the tabaxi does.
I want to play a swashbuckler, but I think for a long campaign, I would rather play or heal a bow rogue...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
I don't mean to disparage any other character. We have a swashbuckler melee in SKT and an arcane trickster (bow) rogue in my Homebrew. Swashbuckler can be very useful. But their damage output has been equal.
Broad answer: in analysis of the 5e monster manual and the play I have seen, most comfortable is melee heavy. Staying out of opponents reach and deal damage is very useful. I realize all rogues 2nd and above can use bonus action to disengage, but the rogue out of melee has more options. And also is in less AoE, needs less healing, etc.
Narrow answer: the question was for a halfling (move 25'). I think less movement offsets the advantage of swashbuckler. Our swashbuckler is a tabaxi, and the extra movement options work well with the swashbuckler special abilities. I might be wrong here, but our swashbuckler runs into trouble when he runs out of movement distance. I am guessing a halfling would be tougher and take more opponent attacks than the tabaxi does.
I want to play a swashbuckler, but I think for a long campaign, I would rather play or heal a bow rogue...
Agreed. That's why I played Variant Human and took Booming Blade, then Mobility at 4th level. With Mobility you basically get a free disengage and can use your bonus action for dash more often.
A melee Rogue has one big advantage over a ranged Rogue: they can take Sentinel to get an extra Sneak Attack any round the monster doesn't attack them. (If the monster does attack them, they can use Uncanny Dodge instead, and a Protection Fighter/Paladin can discourage monsters from trying.)
A ranged Rogue can only match that if one of the party spellcasters uses up a 3rd level slot and their concentration giving them Haste, or receiving Commander's Strike from a Battlemaster Fighter. Both of those have limited uses and require not giving those benefits to somebody else.
Additionally, the threat of eating a Sneak Attack should make monsters think twice about trying to move away, and Arcane Tricksters or High Elves can increase their Opportunity Attack damage even more with Booming Blade.
I really wouldn't bother with the melee attack + disengage strategy; it's not a good use of your bonus action. You really want to use that bonus action to either get another attack (two-weapon fighting or Crossbow Expert) or get advantage on your one attack (Hide.) If you want to run in and out of range you're better off becoming a Swashbuckler or taking Mobile. If you don't want either of those but can't survive in melee range, just use ranged attacks until you get Uncanny Dodge.
Taking one level in Fighter gives some more melee options. Medium armor improves your AC a bit at the cost of disadvantage on Stealth rolls. You can take Armor Fighting Style for +1 AC, or Two-Weapon Fighting style for more damage. You can also use a shield, but then you don't have a second attack or advantage, so you need to get advantage from somewhere else. A Druid with Faerie Fire or a wolf totem Barbarian will do the trick. Shield Master is another option but it's costing you an Ability Score Increase and you need to pick Athletics as one of your Expertise skills to make the most of it.
A ranged Rogue can only match that if one of the party spellcasters uses up a 3rd level slot and their concentration giving them Haste, or receiving Commander's Strike from a Battlemaster Fighter. Both of those have limited uses and require not giving those benefits to somebody else.
This is a really nice feature of Sneak Attack. A Rogue in melee can get SN with AoO, or if given extra attacks in a round by the Fighter:Battlemaster, or some other feature.
Additionally, the threat of eating a Sneak Attack should make monsters think twice about trying to move away, and Arcane Tricksters or High Elves can increase their Opportunity Attack damage even more with Booming Blade.
I'm not sure if you mean attacking monsters with Booming Blade as an AoO, which you can't do as it's a spell or using Booming Blade as an Attack Action to discourage movement.
I really wouldn't bother with the melee attack + disengage strategy; it's not a good use of your bonus action. You really want to use that bonus action to either get another attack (two-weapon fighting or Crossbow Expert) or get advantage on your one attack (Hide.) If you want to run in and out of range you're better off becoming a Swashbuckler or taking Mobile. If you don't want either of those but can't survive in melee range, just use ranged attacks until you get Uncanny Dodge.
I think it's a fine strategy for a number of reasons. 1) If you're wielding a melee weapon instead of a ranged weapon enemy won't risk running past you and taking the AoO. I'll take the AoO from a Rogue with a bow because her unarmed attack won't matter, this gives you board control. 2) as I said if your GM using the DMG for Adv on attacks with flanking, it improves this strategy. 3) It's not reliant on cover like the Hide action. Hiding relies on cover, the enemy probably has cover to you (if as a Halfling you're hiding behind allies) and it won't always work (due to the Passive Perception of the enemy) 4) You're not going to draw the attacks per turn a Rogue with 2 weapon fighting will, as a low level rogue often has a low AC. Although the Swashbuckler negates this penalty as he comes with a lesser version of Mobility as part of the class. All of these take until level 3 (Swashbuckler) or level 4 (Mobility). Who knows what else they might have in mind for character.
Shield Master on a Rogue is really nice, but it requires time and building. The high Ability Score requirements can be negated with Gauntlets of Ogre Power (uncommon) so they are pretty easily gotten by around level 3-4. At this point your Athletics check is going to outpace anyone else. You can Shove the enemy to the ground, take the attack with Adv gain Sneak Attack and withdraw. If you have Swashbuckler you don't care, otherwise you take an AoO but at DisAdv because they are prone. Taking Shield Master changes the dynamic as you're losing possible lack to get the ability to control the board instead.
I'm not sure if you mean attacking monsters with Booming Blade as an AoO, which you can't do as it's a spell or using Booming Blade as an Attack Action to discourage movement.
I forgot to mention it, but I was referencing the War Caster feat.
I think it's a fine strategy for a number of reasons. 1) If you're wielding a melee weapon instead of a ranged weapon enemy won't risk running past you and taking the AoO. I'll take the AoO from a Rogue with a bow because her unarmed attack won't matter, this gives you board control. 2) as I said if your GM using the DMG for Adv on attacks with flanking, it improves this strategy. 3) It's not reliant on cover like the Hide action. Hiding relies on cover, the enemy probably has cover to you (if as a Halfling you're hiding behind allies) and it won't always work (due to the Passive Perception of the enemy) 4) You're not going to draw the attacks per turn a Rogue with 2 weapon fighting will, as a low level rogue often has a low AC. Although the Swashbuckler negates this penalty as he comes with a lesser version of Mobility as part of the class. All of these take until level 3 (Swashbuckler) or level 4 (Mobility). Who knows what else they might have in mind for character.
If you want board control you can throw darts or daggers. They're one-handed, so you can still be holding a melee weapon in your other hand.
I find the flanking rules to be obnoxious because it causes everyone to shift around every turn and makes theater-of-the-mind play impossible. I don't know anyone that uses them and wouldn't build a character that relies on access to it.
Hiding can fail, but if you take Expertise in Stealth you should get away with it most times. Anynumber of successes is better than not having a second attack or advantage at all. Finding hiding spots isn't hard. Halflings can use any larger allies. Everyone else can also hide behind a corner, doorway, pillar, box, or low obstacles. Hell, minor illusion can create something to hide behind on demand. The only time this would ever be a concern is if you're fighting in an open plain.
Shield Master on a Rogue is really nice, but it requires time and building. The high Ability Score requirements can be negated with Gauntlets of Ogre Power (uncommon) so they are pretty easily gotten by around level 3-4. At this point your Athletics check is going to outpace anyone else. You can Shove the enemy to the ground, take the attack with Adv gain Sneak Attack and withdraw. If you have Swashbuckler you don't care, otherwise you take an AoO but at DisAdv because they are prone. Taking Shield Master changes the dynamic as you're losing possible lack to get the ability to control the board instead.
Expertise provides such a huge bonus that you don't need a high Strength score. Just having +1 STR is enough to have a +5 bonus from levels 1-4. That's already the maximum other characters can achieve using standard array or point buy. At level 5 you'll already be at +7. Very few monsters have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics and the ones that do are pretty much always humanoids or human-shaped (e.g. fire giants).
There's also nothing stopping you from using STR as your attack stat if you're going to melee anyways. You can still Sneak Attack using Strength with finesse weapons or darts. If you're using medium armor and a shield you don't need as much Dexterity to keep your AC up.
On that note, Athletics is useful for Rogues since it's also required for climbing difficult surfaces, so treating Strength as your dump stat may not be in your best interests regardless of whether you choose to use grappling or shoving.
Our group will be trying out 5e for the first time in October. I've rolled a Halfling Rogue. So what is the best procedure for combat? At level one, I won't be getting in the thick of things much. As my understanding of the rules, hide takes an action, so the - Move, Attack, Move, Hide, will not work correct? What is the best solution for staying out of the mix, but still feel like i'm doing my part? I know at level 2 I get Cunning action, that will give me a bonus action. So, in what way can I make use of this? Plus being a Halfling I have Nimbleness, and Natural Stealthy. I feel like I could use allies that are larger than me to hide behind. How does the AOO work with Nimbleness?
Thanks in Advance.
It sort of depends on your party composition. Did you take the shortbow for starting equipment so you can do some ranged damage or did you go swords because your party needs a melee presence? If you have the shortbow or are ok throwing and retrieving your daggers you can do some decent poke damage from afar. Keep in mind you'll still get sneak attack damage with a ranged attack if you have advantage on the attack or another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
If the field of battle has options for you to get cover, you may not be able to hide as an action if you attacked but at least you can provide yourself some cover from an enemy. That means the enemy needs to either move to hit you or try to attack you while you are under some degree of cover.
Nimbleness allows you to move through spaces of any creature that is of a size larger than yours so it doesn't really provide you with stealth. It just means that you don't have to waste movement going around these people (though if your DM is allowing flanking, it could be a good way to use less movement to gain advantage on your attack).
Nimbleness really doesn't provide you with any benefits for Attack of Opportunity. As it is based on a hostile creature's turn, it only applies if a hostile creature you can see moves out of your reach (melee range) and didn't use the disengage action (and you don't have the Sentinal feat). If you didn't already use your reaction you get to make a melee attack (or spell attack if you have the War Caster feat) before they leave your melee range.
Natural Stealthy still requires you to hide as an action. Its benefit is that you can now use creatures that are a size larger than you to hide behind where others might only benefit from partial cover.
I hope that covers it!
At level 1, you are really limited, you want to make sure you attack enemies that are next to your allies (that allows you sneak attack dice).
At level 2 you can hide as a bonus action, so the usual idea is something like First turn: Attack, Hide (so you remain hidden through the badguys turn), then repeat, you lose the unseen bonus on first attack, but gain the bonus of being hidden while it isn't your turn.
That said you may find yourself in a number of other situations, you can use your bonus action to disengage or dash to better position yourself or chase after someone, or run away (bravely!)
Just remember you mainly want to attack when you have advantage or when an ally is next to a target so that you always have your sneak attack bonus if possible. That means you may want to occasionally ready an action to shoot at the first target your ally engages. Furthermore, if you are feeling brave, you may be using your bonus actions on offhand attacks, taking two short swords into battle means you have 2 chances to hit your target, and trigger those all important sneak attack dice.
You may choose to be more cautious, and always stay at least 20 feet back and plink away with a light crossbow. It is all up to you, how you want your character to act, risk/reward and such.
At first level you don't have Cunning Action.
Don't bother with "Move, Hide; Attack, Move; Move, Hide..." That means you're only attacking every other round for the hope (you don't blow your Hide roll) to get Adv on an attack.
This means you MIGHT have 2d20 drop the lowest every other turn OR you could just have 1d20 every round. Your DPS will be much higher with the 2nd.
As the other people said, use your movement to keep out of the reach of the enemy if you can. Use a Light Crossbow instead of a Shortbow, a Rogue never gets a 2nd attack as part of the Attack Action so the Loading property doesn't matter and it has another die size on it. It's better then the Hand Crossbow because it has a lot more range, which matters for keep Sneak Attack. It's Two-Handed, but not Heavy so being a Halfling isn't a problem.
When you get Cunning Action you have a lot of choices open up.
If you want to stay ranged and someone engages you in melee: Bonus Action: Disengage, Move, Attack Action: Ranged Attack so you aren't locked in combat and no AoO.
If you want to dart into combat (amazing if your GM is using the DMG rules for Flanking): Bonus Action: Disengage, Move, Attack Action: Melee Attack (rapier?), Move. This way you keep darting into combat striking the enemy from behind and fading out. If they want to engage you they have to draw an AoO from your fighters. The Flanking rule from the DMG gives you Adv on the attack, so you're more likely to hit.
2 Two Weapon Fighting: get stuck into combat and lets the dice fall as they may, be a vicious little ankle biter. This is nice because you get 2 attacks a round so you hedge your bets on Sneak Attack (remember you only get 1 Sneak Attack a Turn, but not round!) You won't get your ability mods on the damage for the 2nd attack without a multiclass into a more martial class.
Note: You will need to have some risk for some reward. If the enemies are in combat and you are behind your allies, they are providing at least 50% cover, maybe 75%, giving the enemy +2, or +5 AC! The Sharpshooter feat will negate this flaw... then you could Sneak Attack from 320' away with a Light Crossbow!
5e monsters and feeling is heavy on melee fighting. Rogue ≠ melee. Fortunately, 5e also removed most of the limits on ranged attacks into melee. Optimize you range attacks to kill everything that closes on your melee fighters. Shortbow is your friend because it does NOT have "reload" property. Remember, cunning action in the future is better use of bonus action than reloading your crossbow!
Second, stay near casters. You can melee better than them IF something goes wrong. Save the ones that cast Faerie Fire and heal you!
I played a halfling rogue and it can be a lot of fun if you seek your role well.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I don't mean to disparage any other character. We have a swashbuckler melee in SKT and an arcane trickster (bow) rogue in my Homebrew. Swashbuckler can be very useful. But their damage output has been equal.
Broad answer: in analysis of the 5e monster manual and the play I have seen, most comfortable is melee heavy. Staying out of opponents reach and deal damage is very useful. I realize all rogues 2nd and above can use bonus action to disengage, but the rogue out of melee has more options. And also is in less AoE, needs less healing, etc.
Narrow answer: the question was for a halfling (move 25'). I think less movement offsets the advantage of swashbuckler. Our swashbuckler is a tabaxi, and the extra movement options work well with the swashbuckler special abilities. I might be wrong here, but our swashbuckler runs into trouble when he runs out of movement distance. I am guessing a halfling would be tougher and take more opponent attacks than the tabaxi does.
I want to play a swashbuckler, but I think for a long campaign, I would rather play or heal a bow rogue...
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
A melee Rogue has one big advantage over a ranged Rogue: they can take Sentinel to get an extra Sneak Attack any round the monster doesn't attack them. (If the monster does attack them, they can use Uncanny Dodge instead, and a Protection Fighter/Paladin can discourage monsters from trying.)
A ranged Rogue can only match that if one of the party spellcasters uses up a 3rd level slot and their concentration giving them Haste, or receiving Commander's Strike from a Battlemaster Fighter. Both of those have limited uses and require not giving those benefits to somebody else.
Additionally, the threat of eating a Sneak Attack should make monsters think twice about trying to move away, and Arcane Tricksters or High Elves can increase their Opportunity Attack damage even more with Booming Blade.
I really wouldn't bother with the melee attack + disengage strategy; it's not a good use of your bonus action. You really want to use that bonus action to either get another attack (two-weapon fighting or Crossbow Expert) or get advantage on your one attack (Hide.) If you want to run in and out of range you're better off becoming a Swashbuckler or taking Mobile. If you don't want either of those but can't survive in melee range, just use ranged attacks until you get Uncanny Dodge.
Taking one level in Fighter gives some more melee options. Medium armor improves your AC a bit at the cost of disadvantage on Stealth rolls. You can take Armor Fighting Style for +1 AC, or Two-Weapon Fighting style for more damage. You can also use a shield, but then you don't have a second attack or advantage, so you need to get advantage from somewhere else. A Druid with Faerie Fire or a wolf totem Barbarian will do the trick. Shield Master is another option but it's costing you an Ability Score Increase and you need to pick Athletics as one of your Expertise skills to make the most of it.
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