All right. Spell Save DC: when do we use it? phb pg 114 says "You use your Int. Mod. when setting the saving throw CD for spell you cast" It then goes on to present a formula: spell save DC = 8+proficiency mod+Int Mod. Example: Bob the wizard has an intelligence of 17 (+3 mod) and a Proficiency of +2. So his save DC would be 8+2+3 or 13. There is similar text on page 204 PHB "The DC to resist one of your spells is equal to 8 + your spell casting ability modifier+your proficiency bonus +any special modifiers. This is different from the formula on page 114. As the Spell casting ability modifier (SAM) already includes the proficiency modifier this second presentation seems in error. But no issues so far for me. (I like formulas) But in looking at many spell descriptions they specifically ask for an ability score based Save. Example: PHB page 263 Otilukes Freezing Sphere: Each creature within the area of effect must make a Constitution Saving throw. On a failed save the creature takes 10d6 cold damage. On a successful save roll it takes 1/2 damage So the spell calls for the 'ability saving throw' mechanism to be used not the Spell Save DC method. If there is language in the spell descriptions that calls for a spell save DC I haven't found it. If I do find it I would say that if an ability saving throw would take precedence over the spell save. Is this how most DMs interpret this? Or rather said another way if no ability saving throw mechanism is specified then use the characters spell save DC.
Spell save DC is the save other creatures have to make against spell you cast. So in your example above, when bob the wizard casts otilukes any creature in the area has to make a con save against a DC 13.
phb pg 114 says "You use your Int. Mod. when setting the saving throw CD for spell you cast" It then goes on to present a formula: spell save DC = 8+proficiency mod+Int Mod. Example: Bob the wizard has an intelligence of 17 (+3 mod) and a Proficiency of +2. So his save DC would be 8+2+3 or 13.
There is similar text on page 204 PHB "The DC to resist one of your spells is equal to 8 + your spell casting ability modifier+your proficiency bonus +any special modifiers. This is different from the formula on page 114.
As the Spell casting ability modifier (SAM) already includes the proficiency modifier this second presentation seems in error.
If you are a Wizard, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Trickster, (or Artificer) your Spell Save DC is 8 + Intelligence mod + Proficiency bonus.
If you are a Cleric, Druid, or Ranger your Spell Save DC = 8 + Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus.
When something is being written generically for all spellcasters, it doesn’t know which Ability to list, so it uses the generic formula of 8 + “Spellcasting Ability modifier” + Proficiency bonus.
Your Spellcasting Ability Modifier does not include your Proficiency bonus.
But no issues so far for me. (I like formulas) But in looking at many spell descriptions they specifically ask for an ability score based Save.
Example: PHB page 263 Otilukes Freezing Sphere: Each creature within the area of effect must make a Constitution Saving throw. On a failed save the creature takes 10d6 cold damage. On a successful save roll it takes 1/2 damage
So the spell calls for the 'ability saving throw' mechanism to be used not the Spell Save DC method. If there is language in the spell descriptions that calls for a spell save DC I haven't found it. If I do find it I would say that if an ability saving throw would take precedence over the spell save. Is this how most DMs interpret this? Or rather said another way if no ability saving throw mechanism is specified then use the characters spell save DC.
thanks for reading
When someone make an “[Ability] Saving Throw” the number they have to meet or exceed is your Spell Save DC.
So if “Bob the Wizard” casts Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere at my character, my character would have to make a Constitution Saving Throw and meet or exceed a DC of 13.
When something is being written generically for all spellcasters, it doesn’t know which Ability to list, so it uses the generic formula of 8 + “Spellcasting Ability modifier” + Proficiency bonus.
Your Spellcasting Ability Modifier does not include your Proficiency bonus.
I just had this happen in a game not 50 minutes ago. The information that IamSposta gives is correct.
DC = 8 + Spell Casting Ability + Proficiency bonus. If you are a Cleric, Druid, or Ranger your Spell Save DC = 8 + Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus.
A druid tried to use Poison Spray on a creature in hand to hand combat. They added her CON bonus instead to WIS bonus because that was listed in the Attack/Save area.
When someone make an “[Ability] Saving Throw” the number they have to meet or exceed is your Spell Save DC.
So if “Bob the Wizard” casts Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere at my character, my character would have to make a Constitution Saving Throw and meet or exceed a DC of 13.
This part was what was confusing the newest player using Poison Spray for the first time. They read the CON save as the ability to use for the DC itself instead of using the spell casting ability. They knew it needed an ability and was not thinking that a druid would always use WIS as their spell casting ability.
Thanks for reading my question Kotath but I'm afraid I still don't get it. I ask 'when do we use "Spell Save DC"? From your answer I think you're saying that if my character is attacked with a spell, with an Intelligence save I'd get Intelligence mod + proficiency mod? Or do you mean if my character is attacked by ANY spell I'd get the Int Mod +Prof Bonus +8 to save vs the spell (Even if the spell calls for a 'dex save'?) The text on page 114 PHB is so unclear to me. perhaps I'm over thinking it
Thanks for reading my question Kotath but I'm afraid I still don't get it. I ask 'when do we use "Spell Save DC"? From your answer I think you're saying that if my character is attacked with a spell, with an Intelligence save I'd get Intelligence mod + proficiency mod? Or do you mean if my character is attacked by ANY spell I'd get the Int Mod +Prof Bonus +8 to save vs the spell (Even if the spell calls for a 'dex save'?) The text on page 114 PHB is so unclear to me. perhaps I'm over thinking it
thanks for any help anyone can provide
No no no. We use your Spell Save DC any time anything has to make a saving throw against your spells. If you're making a saving throw against someone else's spells, the DC is their Spell Save DC.
For example, you're a 1st level druid with a Wisdom of 16. Your spell save DC is 13 (8 + 2 proficiency bonus + your spellcasting ability modifier, Wisdom for druids). The DC for any saving throw of any kind that anyone has to make against spells you cast as a druid is 13. If you cast poison spray, the target has to make a CON save against DC 13. If you cast create bonfire, the target has to make a DEX save against DC 13.
If some other creature casts one of those spells at you, you have to make a CON save or a DEX save, but the DC will be whatever is listed in that creature's stat block, so you probably won't know what it is (but your GM will).
The Difficulty Class (DC) for a saving throw is determined by the effect that causes it. For example, the DC for a saving throw allowed by a spell is determined by the caster’s spellcasting ability and proficiency bonus.
above from rules on saving throws. when a spell caster casts a spell the Difficulty Class (DC) is set by the formula 8+spell casting ability mod+proficiency bonus as described in previous posts.
the spell description tells the target of the spell what type of saving throw is used (DEX, CON, etc...) and the roll must meet or exceed the DC.
Thanks for reading my question Kotath but I'm afraid I still don't get it. I ask 'when do we use "Spell Save DC"? From your answer I think you're saying that if my character is attacked with a spell, with an Intelligence save I'd get Intelligence mod + proficiency mod? Or do you mean if my character is attacked by ANY spell I'd get the Int Mod +Prof Bonus +8 to save vs the spell (Even if the spell calls for a 'dex save'?) The text on page 114 PHB is so unclear to me. perhaps I'm over thinking it
phb pg 114 says "You use your Int. Mod. when setting the saving throw CD for spell you cast" It then goes on to present a formula: spell save DC = 8+proficiency mod+Int Mod. Example: Bob the wizard has an intelligence of 17 (+3 mod) and a Proficiency of +2. So his save DC would be 8+2+3 or 13.
There is similar text on page 204 PHB "The DC to resist one of your spells is equal to 8 + your spell casting ability modifier+your proficiency bonus +any special modifiers. This is different from the formula on page 114.
As the Spell casting ability modifier (SAM) already includes the proficiency modifier this second presentation seems in error.
If you are a Wizard, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Trickster, (or Artificer) your Spell Save DC is 8 + Intelligence mod + Proficiency bonus.
If you are a Cleric, Druid, or Ranger your Spell Save DC = 8 + Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus.
When something is being written generically for all spellcasters, it doesn’t know which Ability to list, so it uses the generic formula of 8 + “Spellcasting Ability modifier” + Proficiency bonus.
Your Spellcasting Ability Modifier does not include your Proficiency bonus.
But no issues so far for me. (I like formulas) But in looking at many spell descriptions they specifically ask for an ability score based Save.
Example: PHB page 263 Otilukes Freezing Sphere: Each creature within the area of effect must make a Constitution Saving throw. On a failed save the creature takes 10d6 cold damage. On a successful save roll it takes 1/2 damage
So the spell calls for the 'ability saving throw' mechanism to be used not the Spell Save DC method. If there is language in the spell descriptions that calls for a spell save DC I haven't found it. If I do find it I would say that if an ability saving throw would take precedence over the spell save. Is this how most DMs interpret this? Or rather said another way if no ability saving throw mechanism is specified then use the characters spell save DC.
thanks for reading
When someone make an “[Ability] Saving Throw” the number they have to meet or exceed is your Spell Save DC.
So if “Bob the Wizard” casts Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere at my character, my character would have to make a Constitution Saving Throw and meet or exceed a DC of 13.
Thanks for reading my question Kotath but I'm afraid I still don't get it. I ask 'when do we use "Spell Save DC"? From your answer I think you're saying that if my character is attacked with a spell, with an Intelligence save I'd get Intelligence mod + proficiency mod? Or do you mean if my character is attacked by ANY spell I'd get the Int Mod +Prof Bonus +8 to save vs the spell (Even if the spell calls for a 'dex save'?) The text on page 114 PHB is so unclear to me. perhaps I'm over thinking it
thanks for any help anyone can provide
The Spell Save DC is kind of like the counterpart for a target's Armor Class. If the spell says the caster makes a spell attack, they're trying to meet or exceed the AC of the target. If the spell says the target makes a saving throw, they're trying to roll equal to or higher than the caster's Spell Save DC. The ability modifier used to calculate the Spell Save DC is based on the caster's spellcasting ability. Intelligence for Wizards, Charisma for Sorcerers, Wisdom for Clerics, etc. Each class or subclass which grants the ability to cast spells will tell you which ability modifier to use when calculating the caster's Spell Attack Bonus and Spell Save DC. It uses the caster's ability modifier to represent how "good" the caster is with their spells. As their ability score and/or Proficiency Bonus goes up, so does their Spell Save DC, making it harder for the targets of their spells to resist them. What TYPE of saving throw the target has to make is defined by the spell, and is usually based on what kind of effect the spell has. The player making the saving throw roll takes the d20 and adds the ability modifier indicated by the type of saving throw, plus their Proficiency Bonus if they're proficient in that type of saving throw(each class gets proficiency in two types of saves, and certain classes/subclasses/feats grant proficiency in additional types of saving throws). Strength saving throws are often made to avoid effects that affect your movement, such as Entangle which tries to restrain you, Gust which tries to push you, or the ability that Dire Wolves have to try and knock you prone if they hit you with their bite attack. Dexterity saves are usually to dodge or get away from an effect so don't take the full impact. Spells like Fireball and Lightning Bolt require anyone in the Area Of Effect to make a Dexterity save, taking only half damage if they succeed instead of full damage. Constitution saves are often to resist effects that harm your vitality. You often make Constitution saves to avoid things like poison, necrotic effects from some undead creatures(like Mummy Rot), petrification effects like from a Basilisk or the Flesh To Stone spell. Intelligence saving throws are usually against effects that impact your mind, like the psychic blast from a Mind Flayer, or the Feeblemind spell. Wisdom saving throws are to avoid charm & fear effects, spells like Hold/Dominate person, and other effects that go after your will. Charisma saving throws aren't quite as intuitive, they are often used to avoid being forcibly transported to another plane, like with the Banishment or Plane Shift spells, and it is also used to resist possession from Ghosts and similar effects. That was by no means an exhaustive list, but it should illustrate the point.
Short version - The type of save you make to resist a spell cast by someone else could use any ability score, based on the type of effect you're trying to resist. But the target value you're trying to hit with your saving throw roll is always calculated with the caster's spellcasting ability, because it represents how strong their magic is.
"Spell casting ability modifier does not include Proficiency" Agreed (Now) related logic says spell casting ability isn't the same thing as ones spell attack modifier. I was confused by the two names of these values.
Iamsposta -thanks, you made several comments that I found helpful. Specifying which classes use which ablities to get their spellcasting ablity was understood but thanks for spelling it out.
Saga Tympana, you made a comment that really helped "you use your Spell Save DC any time anything has to make a saving throw against your spells. If you're making a saving throw against someone else's spells, the DC is their Spell Save DC." The line [as a wizard] "you use your intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a wizard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one." from the PHB p.114
Thrikeen warrior thank for the "Saving Throw" citation from the PHB p.179 2nd to last paragraph.
Well JD2319 that did it. thanks for the long write - up but it made the most sense to me.
All right. Spell Save DC: when do we use it?
phb pg 114 says "You use your Int. Mod. when setting the saving throw CD for spell you cast" It then goes on to present a formula: spell save DC = 8+proficiency mod+Int Mod.
Example: Bob the wizard has an intelligence of 17 (+3 mod) and a Proficiency of +2. So his save DC would be 8+2+3 or 13. There is similar text on page 204 PHB "The DC to resist one of your spells is equal to 8 + your spell casting ability modifier+your proficiency bonus +any special modifiers. This is different from the formula on page 114. As the Spell casting ability modifier (SAM) already includes the proficiency modifier this second presentation seems in error.
But no issues so far for me. (I like formulas) But in looking at many spell descriptions they specifically ask for an ability score based Save.
Example: PHB page 263 Otilukes Freezing Sphere: Each creature within the area of effect must make a Constitution Saving throw. On a failed save the creature takes 10d6 cold damage. On a successful save roll it takes 1/2 damage
So the spell calls for the 'ability saving throw' mechanism to be used not the Spell Save DC method. If there is language in the spell descriptions that calls for a spell save DC I haven't found it. If I do find it I would say that if an ability saving throw would take precedence over the spell save. Is this how most DMs interpret this? Or rather said another way if no ability saving throw mechanism is specified then use the characters spell save DC.
thanks for reading
Spell save DC is the save other creatures have to make against spell you cast.
So in your example above, when bob the wizard casts otilukes any creature in the area has to make a con save against a DC 13.
Okay, a couple things:
If you are a Wizard, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Trickster, (or Artificer) your Spell Save DC is 8 + Intelligence mod + Proficiency bonus.
If you are a Cleric, Druid, or Ranger your Spell Save DC = 8 + Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus.
Everyone else uses 8 + Charisma modifier + Proficiency bonus.
When something is being written generically for all spellcasters, it doesn’t know which Ability to list, so it uses the generic formula of 8 + “Spellcasting Ability modifier” + Proficiency bonus.
Your Spellcasting Ability Modifier does not include your Proficiency bonus.
When someone make an “[Ability] Saving Throw” the number they have to meet or exceed is your Spell Save DC.
So if “Bob the Wizard” casts Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere at my character, my character would have to make a Constitution Saving Throw and meet or exceed a DC of 13.
I hope that helped.
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I just had this happen in a game not 50 minutes ago. The information that IamSposta gives is correct.
DC = 8 + Spell Casting Ability + Proficiency bonus. If you are a Cleric, Druid, or Ranger your Spell Save DC = 8 + Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus.
A druid tried to use Poison Spray on a creature in hand to hand combat. They added her CON bonus instead to WIS bonus because that was listed in the Attack/Save area.
This part was what was confusing the newest player using Poison Spray for the first time. They read the CON save as the ability to use for the DC itself instead of using the spell casting ability. They knew it needed an ability and was not thinking that a druid would always use WIS as their spell casting ability.
Thanks for reading my question Kotath but I'm afraid I still don't get it. I ask 'when do we use "Spell Save DC"? From your answer I think you're saying that if my character is attacked with a spell, with an Intelligence save I'd get Intelligence mod + proficiency mod? Or do you mean if my character is attacked by ANY spell I'd get the Int Mod +Prof Bonus +8 to save vs the spell (Even if the spell calls for a 'dex save'?) The text on page 114 PHB is so unclear to me. perhaps I'm over thinking it
thanks for any help anyone can provide
No no no. We use your Spell Save DC any time anything has to make a saving throw against your spells. If you're making a saving throw against someone else's spells, the DC is their Spell Save DC.
For example, you're a 1st level druid with a Wisdom of 16. Your spell save DC is 13 (8 + 2 proficiency bonus + your spellcasting ability modifier, Wisdom for druids). The DC for any saving throw of any kind that anyone has to make against spells you cast as a druid is 13. If you cast poison spray, the target has to make a CON save against DC 13. If you cast create bonfire, the target has to make a DEX save against DC 13.
If some other creature casts one of those spells at you, you have to make a CON save or a DEX save, but the DC will be whatever is listed in that creature's stat block, so you probably won't know what it is (but your GM will).
The Difficulty Class (DC) for a saving throw is determined by the effect that causes it. For example, the DC for a saving throw allowed by a spell is determined by the caster’s spellcasting ability and proficiency bonus.
above from rules on saving throws.
when a spell caster casts a spell the Difficulty Class (DC) is set by the formula 8+spell casting ability mod+proficiency bonus as described in previous posts.
the spell description tells the target of the spell what type of saving throw is used (DEX, CON, etc...) and the roll must meet or exceed the DC.
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The Spell Save DC is kind of like the counterpart for a target's Armor Class. If the spell says the caster makes a spell attack, they're trying to meet or exceed the AC of the target. If the spell says the target makes a saving throw, they're trying to roll equal to or higher than the caster's Spell Save DC. The ability modifier used to calculate the Spell Save DC is based on the caster's spellcasting ability. Intelligence for Wizards, Charisma for Sorcerers, Wisdom for Clerics, etc. Each class or subclass which grants the ability to cast spells will tell you which ability modifier to use when calculating the caster's Spell Attack Bonus and Spell Save DC. It uses the caster's ability modifier to represent how "good" the caster is with their spells. As their ability score and/or Proficiency Bonus goes up, so does their Spell Save DC, making it harder for the targets of their spells to resist them. What TYPE of saving throw the target has to make is defined by the spell, and is usually based on what kind of effect the spell has. The player making the saving throw roll takes the d20 and adds the ability modifier indicated by the type of saving throw, plus their Proficiency Bonus if they're proficient in that type of saving throw(each class gets proficiency in two types of saves, and certain classes/subclasses/feats grant proficiency in additional types of saving throws). Strength saving throws are often made to avoid effects that affect your movement, such as Entangle which tries to restrain you, Gust which tries to push you, or the ability that Dire Wolves have to try and knock you prone if they hit you with their bite attack. Dexterity saves are usually to dodge or get away from an effect so don't take the full impact. Spells like Fireball and Lightning Bolt require anyone in the Area Of Effect to make a Dexterity save, taking only half damage if they succeed instead of full damage. Constitution saves are often to resist effects that harm your vitality. You often make Constitution saves to avoid things like poison, necrotic effects from some undead creatures(like Mummy Rot), petrification effects like from a Basilisk or the Flesh To Stone spell. Intelligence saving throws are usually against effects that impact your mind, like the psychic blast from a Mind Flayer, or the Feeblemind spell. Wisdom saving throws are to avoid charm & fear effects, spells like Hold/Dominate person, and other effects that go after your will. Charisma saving throws aren't quite as intuitive, they are often used to avoid being forcibly transported to another plane, like with the Banishment or Plane Shift spells, and it is also used to resist possession from Ghosts and similar effects. That was by no means an exhaustive list, but it should illustrate the point.
Short version - The type of save you make to resist a spell cast by someone else could use any ability score, based on the type of effect you're trying to resist. But the target value you're trying to hit with your saving throw roll is always calculated with the caster's spellcasting ability, because it represents how strong their magic is.
"Spell casting ability modifier does not include Proficiency" Agreed (Now) related logic says spell casting ability isn't the same thing as ones spell attack modifier. I was confused by the two names of these values.
Iamsposta -thanks, you made several comments that I found helpful. Specifying which classes use which ablities to get their spellcasting ablity was understood but thanks for spelling it out.
Saga Tympana, you made a comment that really helped "you use your Spell Save DC any time anything has to make a saving throw against your spells. If you're making a saving throw against someone else's spells, the DC is their Spell Save DC." The line [as a wizard] "you use your intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a wizard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one." from the PHB p.114
Thrikeen warrior thank for the "Saving Throw" citation from the PHB p.179 2nd to last paragraph.
Well JD2319 that did it. thanks for the long write - up but it made the most sense to me.
thank you all
Happy to help.
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