Yeah, in my opinion, the cost benefit analysis for just striking the entire rule about Bonus Action spells limiting your turn weighs heavily in favor of houseruling it to do away with it, if it's causing your group's caster frustration and confusion. The most often time the spell comes up is hearing the caster mutter "oh, shoot, I was planning to do X and forgot... ugh, now my turn is ruined!", which isn't a great feeling.
That’s part of the strategy. Hand waving it devalues the strategic import of planning, preparedness, and execution.
I'm not saying that strategy isn't important... but if, for example, let's say there were a rule that said "if you make a melee weapon attack with an offhand weapon as a Bonus Action, the only other attack you can make this turn is a single melee weapon attack costing one action." Is that rule clear enough to follow? Yes. Would it be a big pain in the ass, to be caught off guard that you can't take Opportunity Attacks, or use your Attack Action to gain the full spread of attacks to which you're entitled, or to make a ranged weapon attack? Yeah, there's just no reason that a rule that complex is good or fun or necessary to the concept of "attacks made using an offhand weapon."
Bonus Action spells feel the same to me. Like, I understand the rule, but what I don't understand is why anyone during playtesting thought that it was necessary, or fun, or good. "You've used your action, so you can't take another action" limits the player because the action economy requires it (you have one action per turn) ."You've used your last spell slot, so you can't cast another spell that takes a spell slot" limits the player because the spell slot economy requires it (you only have the spell slots you have). "You don't have a spell focus or components at hand, so you can't cast a spell with a material component" limits the player because the spell description requires it (you need the components it tells you you need). But "you used a Bonus Action spell, so you can't cast a Reaction Spell" is just..... ????why though, who thought that was a good rule???
I am telling you that you are WRONG about Misty Step stopping you from casting Fireball and WRONG about Misty Step stopping Counterspell.
Repeating yourself does not convince me.
Here is the Quote from Sage Advice, since you appear not to read it:
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
See the words "specific to spells that use a bonus action'. Action Surge is not limited to a cantrip, despite having cast healing word (not a cantrip). T
Exactly contradicts your claim about Misty Step and Fireball. The claim about not casting Counterspell on the same turn is based on the same faulty logic.
So despite discussions here and all over the internet, many of which directly ask the rules designers for clarification and receive answers, you are saying all of them are mistaken and when you hold your magnifying glass just so and squint the right way, you can read the rule favorably to allow you to cast a bonus action spell on your turn without being limited to cantrips with a casting time of an action on your turn as well.
Fellas, it looks like you're cracked the code that nobody else could. Bravo.
Yes I agree with you... but the right below that rule on the very same page is the rule for reaction spells... which can only be cast when the trigger occurs, which might be on a bonus action casting turn.
Why would one rule supercede the other... either the bonus action rule or the reaction rule.
It is a paradox or contradiction of sorts... how do these 2 rules co-exist?
It's not a paradox at all. Specific beats general. D&D is full of general rules and specific exceptions. You can only attack once per Attack action, except many classes have a feature that lets you attack twice. That's not a paradox, that's just how the rules work. You can cast a reaction spell when the proper trigger occurs and you have a reaction available, except bonus action spells have a specific rule limiting what other spells you can cast. The bonus action rule supersedes the reaction rule because the latter establishes the general case and the former establishes a circumstantial exception.
I am telling you that you are WRONG about Misty Step stopping you from casting Fireball and WRONG about Misty Step stopping Counterspell.
Repeating yourself does not convince me.
Here is the Quote from Sage Advice, since you appear not to read it:
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
See the words "specific to spells that use a bonus action'. Action Surge is not limited to a cantrip, despite having cast healing word (not a cantrip). T
Exactly contradicts your claim about Misty Step and Fireball. The claim about not casting Counterspell on the same turn is based on the same faulty logic.
You're misreading the Sage Advice. Here's what it's actually saying:
If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but it must be a cantrip.
The above only applies to spells cast as a bonus action. If you cast a spell as an action, if you have access to a second action due to Action Surge, it doesn't need to be a cantrip because the first spell was not cast with a bonus action. If you did cast a spell as a bonus action, see the first point.
The reaction rule is not a general rule unless the bonus action rule is also, they are found in the same area on the same page... that is my point, why does the bonus supercede the reaction? Why should either supercede the other.
You want to acknowledge the bonus rule but ignore the reaction... the reaction doesn't say when the trigger occurs except for turns where the bonus has happened.
Yes, the bonus says 'only a cantrip with an action for the casting time.'
But, the reaction says 'when the trigger occurs.'
So, that is a real thing and a real issue to resolve... even if everyone wants to ignore it.
I'll just quote myself here: "The bonus action rule supersedes the reaction rule because the latter establishes the general case and the former establishes a circumstantial exception." Nothing you've said answers or challenges that.
The reaction rule is not a general rule unless the bonus action rule is also, they are found in the same area on the same page... that is my point, why does the bonus supercede the reaction? Why should either supercede the other.
You want to acknowledge the bonus rule but ignore the reaction... the reaction doesn't say when the trigger occurs except for turns where the bonus has happened.
Yes, the bonus says 'only a cantrip with an action for the casting time.'
But, the reaction says 'when the trigger occurs.'
So, that is a real thing and a real issue to resolve... even if everyone wants to ignore it.
The reaction rules govern what would trigger the Reaction. Just because the Reaction would be triggered does not mean that it is automatically used. The Bonus Action rules state that that reaction cannot be used on the same turn. There is no issue to resolve.
You can cast a spell as an action, bonus action, or reaction... it all depends on the casting time.
The bonus action rule doesn't say you can't cast a spell as an action, it actually says you must cast a spell as an action.
The only time reaction spells can be cast is when their trigger is met.
Not quite. What it says is that IF you cast a spell, it must be an Action, and it must be a cantrip.
And it is certainly possible for a PC to cast a spell as a Bonus Action, like Dragon’s Breath for example, which prompts a villain to cast Counterspell, which would be a valid trigger for the PC to cast Counterspell, but shucks, they cast Dragon’s Breath as a Bonus Action, and since Counterspell fulfills neither of the two requirements:
being a Cantrip; nor
having a casting time of 1 Action;
therefore that PC cannot Counterspell the Counterspell.
You can if your turn is over. If you choose the counterspell you are no longer in your turn so you can. It might involve giving up your action or your movement.
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I know at this point on page five, I'm not going to convince anyone, but the reaction rule is a limit on when you can cast it. It is not an allowance to let you cast it any time that one condition for the spell is met regardless of other conditions. The text "If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so," does not let you override the other requirements for spell casting. This would be like saying "Feather fall is a reaction which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls." Nowhere in that text does it say you can't cast it if you have already used your reaction. Nowhere does it say you have to have an available spell slot to cast it. Those two general rules for spell casting are no more specific than the wording in the spell description. How can we reconcile this apparent paradox? The answer of course is that multiple rules apply to a situation. You can cast feather fall if all the following conditions are met:
The spell's description says you can do so
You have an available spell slot
You have not already used your reaction
You have not already used your bonus action to cast a spell on the same turn
To say that you can cast it because one of requirement is met while others are not is simply not the way this game works.
This is an interesting discussion and something I’ve not thought of because I’ve always assumed reactions to transcend “your turn” as it is based on “rounds” not turns. Besides couldn’t you just “end your turn” then immediately use a reaction? lol
Hmmmm...I’ll have to think on this. I mean, how often does a trigger to cast a reaction spell occur on your turn anyway? The only thing I can think of is if you get into a counterspell duel. And, at least for now, I’m still under the belief that reactions transcend your turn, regardless of when it is used.
You can cast a spell as an action, bonus action, or reaction... it all depends on the casting time.
The bonus action rule doesn't say you can't cast a spell as an action, it actually says you must cast a spell as an action.
The only time reaction spells can be cast is when their trigger is met.
Not quite. What it says is that IF you cast a spell, it must be an Action, and it must be a cantrip.
And it is certainly possible for a PC to cast a spell as a Bonus Action, like Dragon’s Breath for example, which prompts a villain to cast Counterspell, which would be a valid trigger for the PC to cast Counterspell, but shucks, they cast Dragon’s Breath as a Bonus Action, and since Counterspell fulfills neither of the two requirements:
being a Cantrip; nor
having a casting time of 1 Action;
therefore that PC cannot Counterspell the Counterspell.
You can if your turn is over. If you choose the counterspell you are no longer in your turn so you can. It might involve giving up your action or your movement.
Again, we are not talking about in a round, we are talking about within the same specific turn. So your point is completely irrelevant.
To summarize what I think are the relevant points regarding Bonus Action Spells and Reactions/Reaction spells:
If you cast (or plan to cast) a Bonus Action spell on your turn, can you...
1) Use a (non-spell) reaction on your turn? - Yes! (if you meet a trigger requirement)
2) Ready a Cantrip with the casting time of one action? - Yes! (Leveled spells are out though)
3) Use a reaction to deliver or cast a cantrip with the casting time of one action? Rarely, but possible. You would a) need to ready such a spell with your action and have the trigger occur on your same turn, or b) have the Warcaster feat and make an Attack of Opportunity (possibly triggered by an opponent using their reaction to move), or c) some other ability that specifically allows you to do so. Again, only cantrips with a casting time of one action though, no leveled spells.
4) Use a reaction to cast a spell with the casting time of one reaction? No! (Bonus action spellcasting rule says no other spells during the same turn other than cantrips with a casting time of one action)
5) Use a reaction to do 1, 3, or 4 above on another turn in the same round? - Yes! (as long as you meet the trigger and have a reaction available, as per normal)
I have yet to find a situation the super simple flowchart (from page 3) doesn't cover. So whatever situation you cook up, check it against the flowchart. If it passes, you can do it.
"If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction." So if it's your reaction, on your turn, it does not interrupt your turn, it is still your turn, and whatever happens, it is still the same turn that continues despite interruptions.
I believe you’ve misinterpreted this. It is referencing a creature that was the target of a reaction, not the creature using a reaction. your reaction Interrupts ANOTHER creatures turn, Or another creatures reaction interrupts your turn, you may continue your turn as scheduled. I don’t think this applies. No one is trying to argue that reactions “interrupt” turns, or interrupting creates whole turns I don’t even understand this hypothetical nightmare you’ve proposed in reaction to nothing.
"A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's." So they occur during someone's turn. Not outside of the turn structure or any silliness like this which does not exist in the rules.
obviously everything happens on SOMEONES turn, but once again we aren’t talking about other creatures turns.
Now, can you please explain how this sentence "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action." does not apply to any spell casting ?
I wholeheartedly abide by these rules but Reactions are not part of your turn, you get 1 per round. Reactions do not occur on your turn regardless of when they are triggered and the trigger is what determines when you can use it. I understand this will be a difficult concept to grasp to those with preconceived notions. You’ll either get it or you won’t *shrug*. Trust me, it’s very easy to understand that everything that occurs from the start of your turn to the end of your turn is your turn. But I’ll use this word again, reactions transcend your turn. The same trigger could occur on your turn, another person’s turn, it’s the trigger.
I will be removing myself from this this thread as I have nothing else to offer and don’t want to muddy it up, good day to you all. I will ponder this and may change my mind. Until then, I don’t think my players will complain about having more freedom than others. Actually, assuming I am wrong, I can’t even remember a time in my personal experience where this would have been an issue anyway, at least for our group, so luckily for me I don’t think I’ll have to worry about this.
Also Lyxen, I hope you don’t take this personally pal, you have good points and offer a lot of great advice on these forums and I look forward to more :). Nice exercise to get my brain going for the day lol.
You can keep saying that “reactions transcend your turn” but that doesn’t make it true. Show me one scrap of RAW to backup that claim and I’ll retract my statement, but you can’t.
So I will respond to this, but I am unsubscribing to this thread after and I don’t want to argue with people I like on these forums. You are correct IamSposta.
I just always thought of reactions as their own separate thing. But anything that happens within the walls of your turn, is your turn. It just seemed too simple lol.
I just always thought of reactions as their own separate thing. But anything that happens within the walls of your turn, is your turn. It just seemed too simple lol.
You understand it correctly. If a reaction happens on your turn, it is still your turn. As far as I know, the only reaction that changes whose turn it is would be the samurai's capstone Strength Before Death feature and that is a HUGE exception to the normal rule.
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I'm not saying that strategy isn't important... but if, for example, let's say there were a rule that said "if you make a melee weapon attack with an offhand weapon as a Bonus Action, the only other attack you can make this turn is a single melee weapon attack costing one action." Is that rule clear enough to follow? Yes. Would it be a big pain in the ass, to be caught off guard that you can't take Opportunity Attacks, or use your Attack Action to gain the full spread of attacks to which you're entitled, or to make a ranged weapon attack? Yeah, there's just no reason that a rule that complex is good or fun or necessary to the concept of "attacks made using an offhand weapon."
Bonus Action spells feel the same to me. Like, I understand the rule, but what I don't understand is why anyone during playtesting thought that it was necessary, or fun, or good. "You've used your action, so you can't take another action" limits the player because the action economy requires it (you have one action per turn) ."You've used your last spell slot, so you can't cast another spell that takes a spell slot" limits the player because the spell slot economy requires it (you only have the spell slots you have). "You don't have a spell focus or components at hand, so you can't cast a spell with a material component" limits the player because the spell description requires it (you need the components it tells you you need). But "you used a Bonus Action spell, so you can't cast a Reaction Spell" is just..... ????why though, who thought that was a good rule???
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I am telling you that you are WRONG about Misty Step stopping you from casting Fireball and WRONG about Misty Step stopping Counterspell.
Repeating yourself does not convince me.
Here is the Quote from Sage Advice, since you appear not to read it:
See the words "specific to spells that use a bonus action'. Action Surge is not limited to a cantrip, despite having cast healing word (not a cantrip). T
Exactly contradicts your claim about Misty Step and Fireball. The claim about not casting Counterspell on the same turn is based on the same faulty logic.
So despite discussions here and all over the internet, many of which directly ask the rules designers for clarification and receive answers, you are saying all of them are mistaken and when you hold your magnifying glass just so and squint the right way, you can read the rule favorably to allow you to cast a bonus action spell on your turn without being limited to cantrips with a casting time of an action on your turn as well.
Fellas, it looks like you're cracked the code that nobody else could. Bravo.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It's not a paradox at all. Specific beats general. D&D is full of general rules and specific exceptions. You can only attack once per Attack action, except many classes have a feature that lets you attack twice. That's not a paradox, that's just how the rules work. You can cast a reaction spell when the proper trigger occurs and you have a reaction available, except bonus action spells have a specific rule limiting what other spells you can cast. The bonus action rule supersedes the reaction rule because the latter establishes the general case and the former establishes a circumstantial exception.
You're misreading the Sage Advice. Here's what it's actually saying:
Like I said to someone else the other day, “I don’t write the rules, I just know them.”
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I'll just quote myself here: "The bonus action rule supersedes the reaction rule because the latter establishes the general case and the former establishes a circumstantial exception." Nothing you've said answers or challenges that.
The reaction rules govern what would trigger the Reaction. Just because the Reaction would be triggered does not mean that it is automatically used. The Bonus Action rules state that that reaction cannot be used on the same turn. There is no issue to resolve.
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You can if your turn is over. If you choose the counterspell you are no longer in your turn so you can. It might involve giving up your action or your movement.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I know at this point on page five, I'm not going to convince anyone, but the reaction rule is a limit on when you can cast it. It is not an allowance to let you cast it any time that one condition for the spell is met regardless of other conditions. The text "If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so," does not let you override the other requirements for spell casting. This would be like saying "Feather fall is a reaction which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls." Nowhere in that text does it say you can't cast it if you have already used your reaction. Nowhere does it say you have to have an available spell slot to cast it. Those two general rules for spell casting are no more specific than the wording in the spell description. How can we reconcile this apparent paradox? The answer of course is that multiple rules apply to a situation. You can cast feather fall if all the following conditions are met:
To say that you can cast it because one of requirement is met while others are not is simply not the way this game works.
And everyone in this thread knows it :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is an interesting discussion and something I’ve not thought of because I’ve always assumed reactions to transcend “your turn” as it is based on “rounds” not turns. Besides couldn’t you just “end your turn” then immediately use a reaction? lol
Hmmmm...I’ll have to think on this. I mean, how often does a trigger to cast a reaction spell occur on your turn anyway? The only thing I can think of is if you get into a counterspell duel. And, at least for now, I’m still under the belief that reactions transcend your turn, regardless of when it is used.
Again, we are not talking about in a round, we are talking about within the same specific turn. So your point is completely irrelevant.
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To summarize what I think are the relevant points regarding Bonus Action Spells and Reactions/Reaction spells:
If you cast (or plan to cast) a Bonus Action spell on your turn, can you...
1) Use a (non-spell) reaction on your turn? - Yes! (if you meet a trigger requirement)
2) Ready a Cantrip with the casting time of one action? - Yes! (Leveled spells are out though)
3) Use a reaction to deliver or cast a cantrip with the casting time of one action? Rarely, but possible. You would a) need to ready such a spell with your action and have the trigger occur on your same turn, or b) have the Warcaster feat and make an Attack of Opportunity (possibly triggered by an opponent using their reaction to move), or c) some other ability that specifically allows you to do so. Again, only cantrips with a casting time of one action though, no leveled spells.
4) Use a reaction to cast a spell with the casting time of one reaction? No! (Bonus action spellcasting rule says no other spells during the same turn other than cantrips with a casting time of one action)
5) Use a reaction to do 1, 3, or 4 above on another turn in the same round? - Yes! (as long as you meet the trigger and have a reaction available, as per normal)
I have yet to find a situation the super simple flowchart (from page 3) doesn't cover. So whatever situation you cook up, check it against the flowchart. If it passes, you can do it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
"If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction." So if it's your reaction, on your turn, it does not interrupt your turn, it is still your turn, and whatever happens, it is still the same turn that continues despite interruptions.
I believe you’ve misinterpreted this. It is referencing a creature that was the target of a reaction, not the creature using a reaction. your reaction Interrupts ANOTHER creatures turn, Or another creatures reaction interrupts your turn, you may continue your turn as scheduled. I don’t think this applies. No one is trying to argue that reactions “interrupt” turns, or interrupting creates whole turns I don’t even understand this hypothetical nightmare you’ve proposed in reaction to nothing.
"A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's." So they occur during someone's turn. Not outside of the turn structure or any silliness like this which does not exist in the rules.
obviously everything happens on SOMEONES turn, but once again we aren’t talking about other creatures turns.
Now, can you please explain how this sentence "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action." does not apply to any spell casting ?
I wholeheartedly abide by these rules but Reactions are not part of your turn, you get 1 per round. Reactions do not occur on your turn regardless of when they are triggered and the trigger is what determines when you can use it. I understand this will be a difficult concept to grasp to those with preconceived notions. You’ll either get it or you won’t *shrug*. Trust me, it’s very easy to understand that everything that occurs from the start of your turn to the end of your turn is your turn. But I’ll use this word again, reactions transcend your turn. The same trigger could occur on your turn, another person’s turn, it’s the trigger.
I will be removing myself from this this thread as I have nothing else to offer and don’t want to muddy it up, good day to you all. I will ponder this and may change my mind. Until then, I don’t think my players will complain about having more freedom than others. Actually, assuming I am wrong, I can’t even remember a time in my personal experience where this would have been an issue anyway, at least for our group, so luckily for me I don’t think I’ll have to worry about this.
Also Lyxen, I hope you don’t take this personally pal, you have good points and offer a lot of great advice on these forums and I look forward to more :). Nice exercise to get my brain going for the day lol.
You can keep saying that “reactions transcend your turn” but that doesn’t make it true. Show me one scrap of RAW to backup that claim and I’ll retract my statement, but you can’t.
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So I will respond to this, but I am unsubscribing to this thread after and I don’t want to argue with people I like on these forums. You are correct IamSposta.
I’m convinced ;)
I just always thought of reactions as their own separate thing. But anything that happens within the walls of your turn, is your turn. It just seemed too simple lol.
You understand it correctly. If a reaction happens on your turn, it is still your turn. As far as I know, the only reaction that changes whose turn it is would be the samurai's capstone Strength Before Death feature and that is a HUGE exception to the normal rule.
"Not all those who wander are lost"