So, I'm attempting to build a knife thrower ranger and I stumbled on a bit of a problem.
I was planning on taking sharpshooter so I can throw my daggers further and ignore cover. I know I can use the -5/+10 part of the feat with daggers as they aren't ranged weapons. But I thought I could use darts for that part. Technically true but they somehow lack the light property, meaning I would lose my offhand attack.
It just makes no sense. I could be throwing 2 light hammers or 2 handaxes that require strength to use. But the darts that are usable with dexterity and weighing 1/8 of them are somehow too heavy to be used two times?
Is this intended or an oversight? What even is the point of darts? They're just worse than daggers. Being unable to be used with your offhand and being disadvantaged in melee for the upside of... absolutely nothing?
Yeah, I think they messed up with darts: not a monk weapon, can't be used with extra attack (fixed with fighting style), can't be used with 2 weapon fighting.
They are completely overshadowed by daggers in every single aspect except being 1/40th the cost and 1/4th the weight.
As per RAW, darts are not melee weapons, so can't be used with two-weapon fighting anyway.
4 darts are the same weight as 1 dagger, so you can carry a LOT more around with you - and thus coat far more of them with useful poison for each fight :-)
The weight isn't really a concern. A dagger weighs 1 [silly unit of measurement]. I can carry like 50 of those already. Why would I need more?
Damnit, lol. I guess there is the new battlemaster maneuver that let's you make an attack with a thrown weapon. But the Martial adept feat only gives you one superiority die... ugh.
As per RAW, darts are not melee weapons, so can't be used with two-weapon fighting anyway.
Oh yeah, so just the fact that Monks can use them, but not really, and that it took until Tasha's to finally be able to use extra attack with them.
I mean, they do still struggle to be as useful as a sling or dagger, and that is not a good place to be. Especially since they are the only thrown ranged weapon, and that somehow becomes a negative instead of a positive.
Forget the Dagger, Handaxe is a Monk weapon, so it gains pseudo finesse. If you can pick up Whip Proficiency anywhere and use Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon to make that a Monk weapon too then they pair very nicely with the Slasher feat. Especially if you’re a Tabaxi or another race witch slashing natural weapons.
If you really want to stay piercing, the Javelin is a clearly superior choice.
If you took the Crusher feat instead, the Lt Hammer is the hands down better option.
Basically, despite how iconic the Dart should be for a Monk, it just... isn’t....
I guess once I've got extra attack I could go Dart-Dagger-Dagger. First holding a dagger in the off hand and using a Dart with my main hand, I could use Sharpshooter with it. Then taking a dagger in my main hand, I could throw these two.
I guess once I've got extra attack I could go Dart-Dagger-Dagger. First holding a dagger in the off hand and using a Dart with my main hand, I could use Sharpshooter with it. Then taking a dagger in my main hand, I could throw these two.
Do remember that daggers are melee weapons and not ranged weapons and won't interact with sharpshooter depending on your DM's ruling. If the DM rules that it's asking for a weapon attack made at range, you'll be ok. But if your DM rules that it's asking for an attack with a weapon from the ranged weapon lists, daggers won't work. It's worth asking about that before embarking on this journey with a character to make sure it will work the way you think it will in your game.
I guess once I've got extra attack I could go Dart-Dagger-Dagger. First holding a dagger in the off hand and using a Dart with my main hand, I could use Sharpshooter with it. Then taking a dagger in my main hand, I could throw these two.
Do remember that daggers are melee weapons and not ranged weapons and won't interact with sharpshooter depending on your DM's ruling. If the DM rules that it's asking for a weapon attack made at range, you'll be ok. But if your DM rules that it's asking for an attack with a weapon from the ranged weapon lists, daggers won't work. It's worth asking about that before embarking on this journey with a character to make sure it will work the way you think it will in your game.
The wording: "attack rolls you make with ranged weapons," is not very ambiguous. Most will realize it is specifically referring to weapons on the ranged weapon list.
Oh I know. I meant that I could use sharpshooter on the first attack with a dart. And then make two dagger attacks without using sharpshooter. Alternatively I could use sharpshooter on two attacks with a dart but then I cannot use a bonus action to attack. This might still be useful, though. Like when I use my bonus action for a spell like hunter's mark or misty step.
I honestly wouldn’t waste the ASI on Sharpshooter for just one attack out of three, even for the other benefits. You would likely get more mileage out of Piercer and Dual Wielder at that point, and then just go javelins for days.
I want to make a knife thrower character, so no javelins. And having 60 ft. range instead of 20 seems like a great benefit on it's own. And as a variant human I'm not wasting an ASI. Piercer seems useless. Rerolling damage on a d4 and adding an additional d4 on crits versus a plus 10 damage on one attack seems weaker.
Which is why I recommended javelins. Their range is 30/120 and they do 1d6 damage. You could just reskin them as very long, heavy daggers. 😉 But you do you.
Though it is clearly against RAW, I have allowed a player in our group to use Sharpshooter with thrown daggers. We flavor the ability to ignore cover as bouncing the blades off walls and other surfaces to go around corners and other obstacles. It is no more powerful than sharpshooter with a bow.
You could go Fighter instead of Ranger and just bank on getting more Attacks instead of trying to maximize for an offhand attack. Then you also have a free hand for a shield or something. A shield bearing knife thrower seems aesthetically off, but maybe you can reskin a cloak wrapped around your off hand as a shield like my DM let me do.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
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I'm not really looking to absolutely Min/Max. I just want to make knife throwing work. As long as it's viable it doesn't have to be on the exact same level as a longbow sharpshooter.
I'm not really looking to absolutely Min/Max. I just want to make knife throwing work. As long as it's viable it doesn't have to be on the exact same level as a longbow sharpshooter.
If it were me, I would just ask your DM for the -5/+10 clause of Sharpshooter to apply to daggers. It still doesn't equate to a longbow sharpshooter and it's probably the least amount of headache to get you something that's viable. Or just go with Sharpshooter as it is and just accept the reduced damage.
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A. ask dm to allow sharpshooter to apply to daggers.
B. ignore sharpshooter and use daggers
C. use darts and rely more on extra attacks, ignoring two weapon fighting all together (this also frees up bonus action for anything else you might want to do)
Of the three, A would be your best bet for your character concept. Failing A, Its a tough call. Giving up that sweet -5/+10 hurts after the first few levels, but the auto +2/+2 from archery and thrown weapon fighting styles isn't anything to shrug off either. Is probably go with C, though that is also the heavier feat reliant choice, probably requiring Fighter instead of Ranger to pull off.
So, I'm attempting to build a knife thrower ranger and I stumbled on a bit of a problem.
I was planning on taking sharpshooter so I can throw my daggers further and ignore cover. I know I can use the -5/+10 part of the feat with daggers as they aren't ranged weapons. But I thought I could use darts for that part. Technically true but they somehow lack the light property, meaning I would lose my offhand attack.
It just makes no sense. I could be throwing 2 light hammers or 2 handaxes that require strength to use. But the darts that are usable with dexterity and weighing 1/8 of them are somehow too heavy to be used two times?
Is this intended or an oversight? What even is the point of darts? They're just worse than daggers. Being unable to be used with your offhand and being disadvantaged in melee for the upside of... absolutely nothing?
Yeah, I think they messed up with darts: not a monk weapon, can't be used with extra attack (fixed with fighting style), can't be used with 2 weapon fighting.
They are completely overshadowed by daggers in every single aspect except being 1/40th the cost and 1/4th the weight.
As per RAW, darts are not melee weapons, so can't be used with two-weapon fighting anyway.
4 darts are the same weight as 1 dagger, so you can carry a LOT more around with you - and thus coat far more of them with useful poison for each fight :-)
The weight isn't really a concern. A dagger weighs 1 [silly unit of measurement]. I can carry like 50 of those already. Why would I need more?
Damnit, lol. I guess there is the new battlemaster maneuver that let's you make an attack with a thrown weapon. But the Martial adept feat only gives you one superiority die... ugh.
Oh yeah, so just the fact that Monks can use them, but not really, and that it took until Tasha's to finally be able to use extra attack with them.
I mean, they do still struggle to be as useful as a sling or dagger, and that is not a good place to be. Especially since they are the only thrown ranged weapon, and that somehow becomes a negative instead of a positive.
Forget the Dagger, Handaxe is a Monk weapon, so it gains pseudo finesse. If you can pick up Whip Proficiency anywhere and use Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon to make that a Monk weapon too then they pair very nicely with the Slasher feat. Especially if you’re a Tabaxi or another race witch slashing natural weapons.
If you really want to stay piercing, the Javelin is a clearly superior choice.
If you took the Crusher feat instead, the Lt Hammer is the hands down better option.
Basically, despite how iconic the Dart should be for a Monk, it just... isn’t....
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I guess once I've got extra attack I could go Dart-Dagger-Dagger. First holding a dagger in the off hand and using a Dart with my main hand, I could use Sharpshooter with it. Then taking a dagger in my main hand, I could throw these two.
Do remember that daggers are melee weapons and not ranged weapons and won't interact with sharpshooter depending on your DM's ruling. If the DM rules that it's asking for a weapon attack made at range, you'll be ok. But if your DM rules that it's asking for an attack with a weapon from the ranged weapon lists, daggers won't work. It's worth asking about that before embarking on this journey with a character to make sure it will work the way you think it will in your game.
The wording: "attack rolls you make with ranged weapons," is not very ambiguous. Most will realize it is specifically referring to weapons on the ranged weapon list.
Oh I know. I meant that I could use sharpshooter on the first attack with a dart. And then make two dagger attacks without using sharpshooter. Alternatively I could use sharpshooter on two attacks with a dart but then I cannot use a bonus action to attack. This might still be useful, though. Like when I use my bonus action for a spell like hunter's mark or misty step.
I honestly wouldn’t waste the ASI on Sharpshooter for just one attack out of three, even for the other benefits. You would likely get more mileage out of Piercer and Dual Wielder at that point, and then just go javelins for days.
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I want to make a knife thrower character, so no javelins. And having 60 ft. range instead of 20 seems like a great benefit on it's own. And as a variant human I'm not wasting an ASI. Piercer seems useless. Rerolling damage on a d4 and adding an additional d4 on crits versus a plus 10 damage on one attack seems weaker.
Which is why I recommended javelins. Their range is 30/120 and they do 1d6 damage. You could just reskin them as very long, heavy daggers. 😉 But you do you.
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Though it is clearly against RAW, I have allowed a player in our group to use Sharpshooter with thrown daggers. We flavor the ability to ignore cover as bouncing the blades off walls and other surfaces to go around corners and other obstacles. It is no more powerful than sharpshooter with a bow.
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You could go Fighter instead of Ranger and just bank on getting more Attacks instead of trying to maximize for an offhand attack. Then you also have a free hand for a shield or something. A shield bearing knife thrower seems aesthetically off, but maybe you can reskin a cloak wrapped around your off hand as a shield like my DM let me do.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm not really looking to absolutely Min/Max. I just want to make knife throwing work. As long as it's viable it doesn't have to be on the exact same level as a longbow sharpshooter.
If it were me, I would just ask your DM for the -5/+10 clause of Sharpshooter to apply to daggers. It still doesn't equate to a longbow sharpshooter and it's probably the least amount of headache to get you something that's viable. Or just go with Sharpshooter as it is and just accept the reduced damage.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
So ya got 3 real options.
A. ask dm to allow sharpshooter to apply to daggers.
B. ignore sharpshooter and use daggers
C. use darts and rely more on extra attacks, ignoring two weapon fighting all together (this also frees up bonus action for anything else you might want to do)
Of the three, A would be your best bet for your character concept. Failing A, Its a tough call. Giving up that sweet -5/+10 hurts after the first few levels, but the auto +2/+2 from archery and thrown weapon fighting styles isn't anything to shrug off either. Is probably go with C, though that is also the heavier feat reliant choice, probably requiring Fighter instead of Ranger to pull off.
Great news! My DM allows sharpshooter to apply to my daggers.
Still, it's annoying that they didn't at least fix the darts shortcomings with Tasha's, when introducing the fighting style.