The difference is if you put that ring on a character that does have proficiency in stealth from, say, their class feature, the Twice Proficiency ring would allow you to choose a replacement proficiency from your class and when you take the ring off you would no longer have stealth proficiency. The Expertise ring would double it while you’re wearing it and then drop the doubled PB when you take it off again, but you would still have the original proficiency. It has nothing to do with what happens to a character that doesn’t already have the base skill proficiency, and everything to do with what happens to a character that does already have the base proficiency. Make sense meow? (At least, that’s how it works with subclasses, races, and feats. I haven’t actually tried it on a magic item to see if it still works that way for them too.)
If this is the case, then it's a function I was not aware of. That is good to know.
EDIT: What I would really like in the homebrew editor is something that would give proficiency to a skill you do not have and double it if you already have proficiency. Several UA features did this, but as of last time I looked for it, it was not available in the editor.
I just looked and you can functionally do this in the race editor (just poorly) by giving the player their choice of proficiency or expertise so they can do it manually. I didn't see any way to do it automatically, and the method I used for it - adding an option - wouldn't work for a feat, because when I tried to homebrew a feat, the only options I could add were all actions. As usual, the best solution in general is to ignore the DDB homebrew editor entirely.
l saw both in the homebrew maker, and l want to know if/what the difference is.
Edit: (June 12th,2022) How was this found!? I made this post 2 years ago! (Dec 24 2020) Also, aren't there rules against necroposting?
There are actually no rules here about necro-posting. They apparently had it and removed it. This actually makes a certain amount of sense since the same rules questions and clarifications often come up repeatedly. Allowing old threads to be resurrected as long as the topic remains similar or relevant is reasonable.
To IamSposta - I completely missed that the discussion was about a D&D Beyond implementation vs the actual game rules. However, if D&D Beyond uses the double proficiency method that doesn't allow replacement of skills for Blessings of knowledge then I am not sure that is correct since Blessings of Knowledge explicitly gives proficiency in two skills (which presumably could be swapped if you already have it) plus double proficiency in the two skills picked for proficiency from the four listed.
What's even more amusing is when things are worded: "blah blah you gain proficiency in X skill. If you already have proficiency, then you add double your proficiency bonus to that skill."
Like... just say "if you are already proficient, then you gain expertise in that skill."
What's even more amusing is when things are worded: "blah blah you gain proficiency in X skill. If you already have proficiency, then you add double your proficiency bonus to that skill."
Like... just say "if you are already proficient, then you gain expertise in that skill."
Actually that's the one thing it shouldn't say because the lower case "expertise" is not an actual defined rule in the game.
In the PHB the upper case "Expertise" shows up as a Bard and a Rogue class feature (and then in a few places where it references those class features) but the lower case "expertise" is nowhere to be seen in the section about the proficiency bonus (Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores). In fact it only shows up in this sentence in the "Feats" section.
A feat represents a talent or an area of expertise that gives a character special capabilities. It embodies training, experience, and abilities beyond what a class provides.
This is clearly a more general usage of the word not in any way related to the rules for proficiency bonus doubling.
The bottom line is that while everyone playing the game uses "expertise" interchangeably with "double proficiency bonus" the rules of the game doesn't unfortunately.
Even with your clarification, I don't understand the distinction IamSposta is making. We can look at this from two perspectives, but it's the same in both cases:
In terms of existing game features, any feature that I know of that grants twice proficiency only does it to a skill you are already proficient in. Likewise, expertise only applies to a skill you are already proficient in. They are identical in how the game presents them.
In homebrew terms, if I make a ring that grants twice proficiency to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. If I make a ring that grants expertise to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. If I make a ring that grants expertise AND twice proficiency to stealth and I put it on a character that does not have stealth proficiency, they will have 2x proficiency bonus to stealth. In all three cases, they are identical mechanically.
I don't think that should happen tbh. The rules says that doubling a proficiency that you don't have would net you nothing because nothing times two is still nothing.
By the same token, if a feature or effect allows you to multiply your proficiency bonus when making an ability check that wouldn’t normally benefit from your proficiency bonus, you still don’t add the bonus to the check. For that check your proficiency bonus is 0, given the fact that multiplying 0 by any number is still 0. For instance, if you lack proficiency in the History skill, you gain no benefit from a feature that lets you double your proficiency bonus when you make Intelligence (History) checks.
In the end this is the same thing that Sposta has been talking about. The "twice proficiency" grants you proficiency plus doubling it while "Expertice" only grants the doubling. They really are two quite different concepts.
What's even more amusing is when things are worded: "blah blah you gain proficiency in X skill. If you already have proficiency, then you add double your proficiency bonus to that skill."
Like... just say "if you are already proficient, then you gain expertise in that skill."
But Expertise is not a universal rule, doubling Proficiency bonus is, and Expertise itself grants “double your Proficiency bonus.”
and yet, not only is "expertise" in a particular skill a selectable feature of the editor, it does exactly what ArcNKD describes. That is to say that while you are making a distinction between Expertise and expertise, the editor does not appear to.
and yet, not only is "expertise" in a particular skill a selectable feature of the editor, it does exactly what ArcNKD describes. That is to say that while you are making a distinction between Expertise and expertise, the editor does not appear to.
Well it isn't so much that I (we) are making the distinction. It's more that "Expertise" is an actual rule while "expertise" isn't. The language the rules use is "double proficiency bonus" so that is probably what should have been used in the editor too.
and yet, not only is "expertise" in a particular skill a selectable feature of the editor, it does exactly what ArcNKD describes. That is to say that while you are making a distinction between Expertise and expertise, the editor does not appear to.
Again, the editor does. Expertise doubles your PB for that skill, Twice Proficiency grants proficiency in that skill and doubles it. And if more than one thing grants proficiency in a skill you get to replace one instance of it with a different skill. That’s the difference. I’ve explained this several times now.
The “twice proficiency” Modifier both grants proficiency and doubles it on the sheet. The “Expertise” Modifier displays the doubled PB for the skill on the sheet without actually granting proficiency in that skill.
I don't think it matters. If your proficiency modifier is doubled for the relevant skill rolls, then when would it matter that you actually have proficiency under it? You gave an example of a character who already has proficiency putting on the ring and then getting to choose a new proficiency in its place, and that is a good point, but that is something that only applies in character creation, so the magic item in your example wouldn't really matter unless the character was created already having this magic ring. In the case of a feat that granted it, then yeah, fair game.
and yet, not only is "expertise" in a particular skill a selectable feature of the editor, it does exactly what ArcNKD describes. That is to say that while you are making a distinction between Expertise and expertise, the editor does not appear to.
Well it isn't so much that I (we) are making the distinction. It's more that "Expertise" is an actual rule while "expertise" isn't. The language the rules use is "double proficiency bonus" so that is probably what should have been used in the editor too.
Yeah.
Throwing back to my earlier statement, if one granted double proficiency straight-up and the other granted "proficiency if you don't have it, or double if you do" then that would be waaaaaay more handy for the purpose of editing homebrew.
The “twice proficiency” Modifier both grants proficiency and doubles it on the sheet. The “Expertise” Modifier displays the doubled PB for the skill on the sheet without actually granting proficiency in that skill.
I don't think it matters. If your proficiency modifier is doubled for the relevant skill rolls, then when would it matter that you actually have proficiency under it?
That shouldn't even happen tbh. If you don't have the underlying proficiency then any effect that allows doubling your proficiency bonus does nothing. The rules are quite clear there, 2x0=0.
Throwing back to my earlier statement, if one granted double proficiency straight-up and the other granted "proficiency if you don't have it, or double if you do" then that would be waaaaaay more handy for the purpose of editing homebrew.
Agreed, that would be useful for homebrewing. However that is a very rare way for a game feature to work. AFAIK the Cobalt Soul Monk is the only one that does.
There were a lot of feats in the "feats for skills" UA that used this mechanism. That UA never made it to publication, though. Perhaps it was because the designers didn't care for that system.
That shouldn't even happen tbh. If you don't have the underlying proficiency then any effect that allows doubling your proficiency bonus does nothing. The rules are quite clear there, 2x0=0.
Yes this is true when you treat a lack of pre-existing proficiency in the skill as a 0, but at the same time, it's never really 2 x 0 because every character has a proficiency bonus no matter what. If the editor tag doubles your proficiency bonus and applies it to the skill, then it's always going to be 2 x Y where Y is somewhere between 2 and 6 depending on character level. I'm not saying your logic is wrong--just that it assumes an additive process where you have nothing, then something, then twice something as opposed to just turning on a switch that applies twice something all at once.
Yes this is true when you treat a lack of pre-existing proficiency in the skill as a 0, but at the same time, it's never really 2 x 0 because every character has a proficiency bonus no matter what. If the editor tag doubles your proficiency bonus and applies it to the skill, then it's always going to be 2 x Y where Y is somewhere between 2 and 6 depending on character level. I'm not saying your logic is wrong--just that it assumes an additive process where you have nothing, then something, then twice something as opposed to just turning on a switch that applies twice something all at once.
It isn't my logic. The rules explicitly say that's how you do it.
By the same token, if a feature or effect allows you to multiply your proficiency bonus when making an ability check that wouldn’t normally benefit from your proficiency bonus, you still don’t add the bonus to the check. For that check your proficiency bonus is 0, given the fact that multiplying 0 by any number is still 0. For instance, if you lack proficiency in the History skill, you gain no benefit from a feature that lets you double your proficiency bonus when you make Intelligence (History) checks.
I just went through and tested this by making a ring of stealth expertise and a ring of twice stealth proficiency using the associated tags. The ring of expertise works as I imagine, in that a character with no proficiency in the skill puts on the ring, and they have double their proficiency bonus in stealth. But when I put on the ring of twice proficiency on a character that has no proficiency in stealth, I can't tell that it does anything--the character stays with no proficiency. Likewise, when I put the ring on a character that already has proficiency in stealth, I can't tell that it does anything there either--the character stays with single proficiency. I am linking images rather than posting them inline in order to cut down on spam,.
I didn't include photos of the character with pre-existing proficiency in stealth when wearing the two different rings because it would not be as useful visually. How weird.
I think the difference here is that you are discussing gameplay rules as written. I am discussing website mechanics in response to the OP. The two do not appear to work identically even though i think we would both agree that they should.
The “twice proficiency” Modifier both grants proficiency and doubles it on the sheet. The “Expertise” Modifier displays the doubled PB for the skill on the sheet without actually granting proficiency in that skill.
I don't think it matters. If your proficiency modifier is doubled for the relevant skill rolls, then when would it matter that you actually have proficiency under it? You gave an example of a character who already has proficiency putting on the ring and then getting to choose a new proficiency in its place, and that is a good point, but that is something that only applies in character creation, so the magic item in your example wouldn't really matter unless the character was created already having this magic ring. In the case of a feat that granted it, then yeah, fair game.
I never only think of stuff like magic items. Whenever I am thinking about you his stuff I’m usually thinking in terms of subclasses. That’s when it matters.
The “twice proficiency” Modifier both grants proficiency and doubles it on the sheet. The “Expertise” Modifier displays the doubled PB for the skill on the sheet without actually granting proficiency in that skill.
I don't think it matters. If your proficiency modifier is doubled for the relevant skill rolls, then when would it matter that you actually have proficiency under it?
That shouldn't even happen tbh. If you don't have the underlying proficiency then any effect that allows doubling your proficiency bonus does nothing. The rules are quite clear there, 2x0=0.
That modifier is for stuff that says something like “You gain proficiency with/in the [X] skill/tools. You double your proficiency bonus for checks made with that skill/tool.” (Or words to that effect.) That’s what the Twice Proficiency Modifier is for.
I never only think of stuff like magic items. Whenever I am thinking about you his stuff I’m usually thinking in terms of subclasses. That’s when it matters.
And that goes back to the usefulness of the apparently nonexistent homebrew editor feature that grants +1x proficiency whether you have it already or not.
I never only think of stuff like magic items. Whenever I am thinking about you his stuff I’m usually thinking in terms of subclasses. That’s when it matters.
And that goes back to the usefulness of the apparently nonexistent homebrew editor feature that grants +1x proficiency whether you have it already or not.
I’m not entirely sure I understand. Are we finally agreeing on this?
I think the difference here is that you are discussing gameplay rules as written. I am discussing website mechanics in response to the OP. The two do not appear to work identically even though i think we would both agree that they should.
Yes, Sposta already covered the website mechanics and he knows that a lot better than me so I just tried to add that they are somewhat different concepts in the game rules too. Plus noted when it looked like the website did something that seems to be counter to how the rules work. Your Ring of stealth expertise for example shouldn't do anything for the character according to the rules but such an item seems to work just fine (I tried it myself) on here.
That modifier is for stuff that says something like “You gain proficiency with/in the [X] skill/tools. You double your proficiency bonus for checks made with that skill/tool.” (Or words to that effect.) That’s what the Twice Proficiency Modifier is for.
Yea like Blessing of Knowledge or the Survivalist feature that Scout Rogues get.
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I just looked and you can functionally do this in the race editor (just poorly) by giving the player their choice of proficiency or expertise so they can do it manually. I didn't see any way to do it automatically, and the method I used for it - adding an option - wouldn't work for a feat, because when I tried to homebrew a feat, the only options I could add were all actions. As usual, the best solution in general is to ignore the DDB homebrew editor entirely.
There are actually no rules here about necro-posting. They apparently had it and removed it. This actually makes a certain amount of sense since the same rules questions and clarifications often come up repeatedly. Allowing old threads to be resurrected as long as the topic remains similar or relevant is reasonable.
To IamSposta - I completely missed that the discussion was about a D&D Beyond implementation vs the actual game rules. However, if D&D Beyond uses the double proficiency method that doesn't allow replacement of skills for Blessings of knowledge then I am not sure that is correct since Blessings of Knowledge explicitly gives proficiency in two skills (which presumably could be swapped if you already have it) plus double proficiency in the two skills picked for proficiency from the four listed.
What's even more amusing is when things are worded: "blah blah you gain proficiency in X skill. If you already have proficiency, then you add double your proficiency bonus to that skill."
Like... just say "if you are already proficient, then you gain expertise in that skill."
Actually that's the one thing it shouldn't say because the lower case "expertise" is not an actual defined rule in the game.
In the PHB the upper case "Expertise" shows up as a Bard and a Rogue class feature (and then in a few places where it references those class features) but the lower case "expertise" is nowhere to be seen in the section about the proficiency bonus (Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores). In fact it only shows up in this sentence in the "Feats" section.
This is clearly a more general usage of the word not in any way related to the rules for proficiency bonus doubling.
The bottom line is that while everyone playing the game uses "expertise" interchangeably with "double proficiency bonus" the rules of the game doesn't unfortunately.
I don't think that should happen tbh. The rules says that doubling a proficiency that you don't have would net you nothing because nothing times two is still nothing.
From chapter 7:
In the end this is the same thing that Sposta has been talking about. The "twice proficiency" grants you proficiency plus doubling it while "Expertice" only grants the doubling. They really are two quite different concepts.
But Expertise is not a universal rule, doubling Proficiency bonus is, and Expertise itself grants “double your Proficiency bonus.”
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and yet, not only is "expertise" in a particular skill a selectable feature of the editor, it does exactly what ArcNKD describes. That is to say that while you are making a distinction between Expertise and expertise, the editor does not appear to.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well it isn't so much that I (we) are making the distinction. It's more that "Expertise" is an actual rule while "expertise" isn't. The language the rules use is "double proficiency bonus" so that is probably what should have been used in the editor too.
Again, the editor does. Expertise doubles your PB for that skill, Twice Proficiency grants proficiency in that skill and doubles it. And if more than one thing grants proficiency in a skill you get to replace one instance of it with a different skill. That’s the difference. I’ve explained this several times now.
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I went back and re-read post #18, but you make a distinction that I don't think matters in actual gameplay.
I don't think it matters. If your proficiency modifier is doubled for the relevant skill rolls, then when would it matter that you actually have proficiency under it? You gave an example of a character who already has proficiency putting on the ring and then getting to choose a new proficiency in its place, and that is a good point, but that is something that only applies in character creation, so the magic item in your example wouldn't really matter unless the character was created already having this magic ring. In the case of a feat that granted it, then yeah, fair game.
Yeah.
Throwing back to my earlier statement, if one granted double proficiency straight-up and the other granted "proficiency if you don't have it, or double if you do" then that would be waaaaaay more handy for the purpose of editing homebrew.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That shouldn't even happen tbh. If you don't have the underlying proficiency then any effect that allows doubling your proficiency bonus does nothing. The rules are quite clear there, 2x0=0.
Agreed, that would be useful for homebrewing. However that is a very rare way for a game feature to work. AFAIK the Cobalt Soul Monk is the only one that does.
There were a lot of feats in the "feats for skills" UA that used this mechanism. That UA never made it to publication, though. Perhaps it was because the designers didn't care for that system.
Yes this is true when you treat a lack of pre-existing proficiency in the skill as a 0, but at the same time, it's never really 2 x 0 because every character has a proficiency bonus no matter what. If the editor tag doubles your proficiency bonus and applies it to the skill, then it's always going to be 2 x Y where Y is somewhere between 2 and 6 depending on character level. I'm not saying your logic is wrong--just that it assumes an additive process where you have nothing, then something, then twice something as opposed to just turning on a switch that applies twice something all at once.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It isn't my logic. The rules explicitly say that's how you do it.
Chapter 7: Proficiency Bonus
I just went through and tested this by making a ring of stealth expertise and a ring of twice stealth proficiency using the associated tags. The ring of expertise works as I imagine, in that a character with no proficiency in the skill puts on the ring, and they have double their proficiency bonus in stealth. But when I put on the ring of twice proficiency on a character that has no proficiency in stealth, I can't tell that it does anything--the character stays with no proficiency. Likewise, when I put the ring on a character that already has proficiency in stealth, I can't tell that it does anything there either--the character stays with single proficiency. I am linking images rather than posting them inline in order to cut down on spam,.
I didn't include photos of the character with pre-existing proficiency in stealth when wearing the two different rings because it would not be as useful visually. How weird.
I think the difference here is that you are discussing gameplay rules as written. I am discussing website mechanics in response to the OP. The two do not appear to work identically even though i think we would both agree that they should.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I never only think of stuff like magic items. Whenever I am thinking about you his stuff I’m usually thinking in terms of subclasses. That’s when it matters.
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That modifier is for stuff that says something like “You gain proficiency with/in the [X] skill/tools. You double your proficiency bonus for checks made with that skill/tool.” (Or words to that effect.) That’s what the Twice Proficiency Modifier is for.
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And that goes back to the usefulness of the apparently nonexistent homebrew editor feature that grants +1x proficiency whether you have it already or not.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I’m not entirely sure I understand. Are we finally agreeing on this?
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Yes, Sposta already covered the website mechanics and he knows that a lot better than me so I just tried to add that they are somewhat different concepts in the game rules too. Plus noted when it looked like the website did something that seems to be counter to how the rules work. Your Ring of stealth expertise for example shouldn't do anything for the character according to the rules but such an item seems to work just fine (I tried it myself) on here.
Yea like Blessing of Knowledge or the Survivalist feature that Scout Rogues get.