Ed Greenwood isn't a character in the Forgotten Realms, the story was that Elminster would use planeshifting magic to pop over to Ed's house and tell him about the Realms (and also raid his fridge). It was a long-running series of articles in Dragon Magazine, with occasional game content like new magic items or spells included (always frivolous things that no adventurer would have a practical use for).
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Ed Greenwood isn't a character in the Forgotten Realms, the story was that Elminster would use planeshifting magic to pop over to Ed's house and tell him about the Realms (and also raid his fridge). It was a long-running series of articles in Dragon Magazine, with occasional game content like new magic items or spells included (always frivolous things that no adventurer would have a practical use for).
Interesting. So they were basically useless?
A little beyond the scope of this thread, but one time a few years ago when I was first getting into D&D our Dark Sun characters got teleported to present-day Earth and had to deal with two D&D players who were summoning their own PCs to Earth and using them to kill people.
The spells tended to do things like let Elminster change the color of the smoke coming from his pipe, or instantly summon a bathrobe and slippers. This was back when TSR was still running things and Dragon Magazine was more focused on fluff than after WotC took over and began retooling things.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I've been a fan of the Forgotten realms setting for years, and there is much speculation about the entity Ao speaks to in the Avatar series. Some joke that it is the DM or Ed Greenwood, and others (myself included) think that, because Ao is the overlord of Realmspace, but not the entire multiverse, he has a "boss".
All seems like a valid point. But Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms) is sort of a character in there already. I can't remember which source it was, but Ed Greenwood met up with Elminster to write the first sourcebooks of Forgotten Realms according to lore. Someone, if you can reference the source, then thank you.
And all of this would be way over the scope of the game anyways. After all, the player characters are suppose to be mortals. Them simply meeting the gods' god, Ao, would be really out there. So meeting the god of the gods' god should be out of the scope of the game. Sort of like the guy who asked for stats covering abilities scores over 100. That is so immeasurable by the game that the DM could make up whatever he wanted for that.
I'm still going to cling to my theory that the rulebooks for D&D are written by the overgod of the specific sphere that you play in. I like that idea in my head.
Nevermind, I took the little bit of extra time to look it up Elminster communicating with Ed Greenwood instead of sending others to find information that I already found before.
Brian R. James and Ed Greenwood. (September 2007). "The Grand History of the Realms." Page 142
Ao himself doesn't interact with mortals (most mortals don't even know of him, though there was a small cult formed during the Time of Troubles, when he made his existence known). So yes, it's probably not gonna be known to the characters, but I've always found the lore tidbits fun to know, whether they're "useful" to the game or not.
I have found that it really depends on the setting/edition you are looking at.
For the Forgotten Realms, Ao would be the most powerful fully established god and even then its said he has someone over him.
Then of course in various editions Io/Asgorath is portrayed as the Overdeity of the Dragon Pantheon, having existed since the dawn of existence and created all the known universe, and is the only deity that is commonly portrayed as being all alignments at once which is why they are known most commonly as The Ninefold Dragon. Some depictions of them in earlier editions even make it seem like they is so big and powerful that they basically are the whole of the D&D universe. (Of course as a dragon lover through and through I'm a bit biased here so take that into account)
In Eberron, we are given another example of all powerful dragons in the form of three great progenitor dragons: Siberys (the Dragon Above), Eberron (The Dragon Between), and Khyber (The Dragon Below). These three dragons worked together to create the whole of the planar system of Eberron's universe but when the last of the 13 worlds was being made, Khyber betrayed her siblings and "killed" Siberys, scattering his being upwards to make the heaven and birth the celestial. Eberron in an effort to stop Khyber wrapped her coils around her sister and became the world of Eberron itself, becoming the progenitor of all natural life on it's surface. Khyber becomes trapped within and becoming the Underdark, and births the various fiends and other dark abominations, including the Tiamat of this world. This is mostly coming from my knowledge of the lore in 3rd edition of course so I'm not sure if anything has been changes.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Ao. He created all gods and primordials, The Cristal Sphere which is the solar system and all planes of existence in the Forgotten Realms lor. Look him up.
Tharizdun - Listed as an interloper god from Oerth (Greyhawk campaign setting), Tharizdun is credited with creating the chaotic Abyss during the Dawn War which became the place of the Primordials that the gods were fighting. As a note, the demons already existed before the creation of the abyss and Tharizdun basically made a home for them too in his bid for more power.
Tharizdun is an interloper god to Oerth as well. And before anyone says it, no, he's NOT The Elder Elemental God (nor is he an aspect of him), thus spake his creator E. Gary Gygax. In fact, the EEG and Tharizdun were on opposites "sides" of Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire (they both supplied their "side" with forbidden magics). What's trapped on Oerth in The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun isn't him, but an Avatar of him (trapped by none other than the Archmage Tsojcanth around the time of the Twin Cataclysms). By comparison, the EEG IS trapped on Oerth (part of which is beneath The Temple of Elemental Evil) after Lolth and many of the gods of Greyhawk banded together to kick the drek out of him.
I don't think AO is a creator God of the Multiverse. Otherwise, you could make that argument for The High God of DragonLance since he is a Creator Demiurge as well.
I don't think AO is a creator God of the Multiverse. Otherwise, you could make that argument for The High God of DragonLance since he is a Creator Demiurge as well.
Ao is just for the Realms. Same with the High God and Krynn.
Ao has no power anywhere but Realmspace. I mean yeah, if he somehow traveled to Greyspace or something he'd probably be powerful, but still he's only overlord of the Realms. Also, you forgot the Lady of Pain in your list, who literally has so much power she banned the gods from her city Sigil.
Ao has no power anywhere but Realmspace. I mean yeah, if he somehow traveled to Greyspace or something he'd probably be powerful, but still he's only overlord of the Realms. Also, you forgot the Lady of Pain in your list, who literally has so much power she banned the gods from her city Sigil.
The only known, completely canon fact about the Lady of Pain is that she is not a god.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'd pick The Lady of Pain over Ao. I enjoy the lore surrounding her. She's enigmatic enough to be interesting. Ao for me is an idea that hasn't grown past the narratological contrivance it started as. The answer is, of course, whoever you can tell a compelling story about. The secret god from before time can be a fun story. If I were to tell it, I'd try to improvise on the theme. It's usually executed as, the secret god from before time is a threat. I might go with something like, the secret god from before time was trapped and prevented from helping by the real threat.
You should probably look at the "DnD universe" like the Marvel comic universe. Anything can happen and there is always a bigger fish and power levels shift all the time depending on source material. I wouldn't try to make any sense out of it. 😄 And much like Marvel, the DnD rulebooks also make references to Greek and Scandinavian gods etc.
If you are a player, you don't need to know because your DM is the ultimate god of the universe anyway so they will tell you if you need to know. If you are the DM, then you can decide or create a new god altogether. This my opinion. 😄
Ed Greenwood isn't a character in the Forgotten Realms, the story was that Elminster would use planeshifting magic to pop over to Ed's house and tell him about the Realms (and also raid his fridge). It was a long-running series of articles in Dragon Magazine, with occasional game content like new magic items or spells included (always frivolous things that no adventurer would have a practical use for).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Interesting. So they were basically useless?
A little beyond the scope of this thread, but one time a few years ago when I was first getting into D&D our Dark Sun characters got teleported to present-day Earth and had to deal with two D&D players who were summoning their own PCs to Earth and using them to kill people.
The spells tended to do things like let Elminster change the color of the smoke coming from his pipe, or instantly summon a bathrobe and slippers. This was back when TSR was still running things and Dragon Magazine was more focused on fluff than after WotC took over and began retooling things.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Got it. But fluff can be cool sometimes (though I do agree that changing the color of your smoke is not super useful).
Ao himself doesn't interact with mortals (most mortals don't even know of him, though there was a small cult formed during the Time of Troubles, when he made his existence known). So yes, it's probably not gonna be known to the characters, but I've always found the lore tidbits fun to know, whether they're "useful" to the game or not.
True. Lore is not binding on the players or the DM, but it is fun to read about.
I have found that it really depends on the setting/edition you are looking at.
For the Forgotten Realms, Ao would be the most powerful fully established god and even then its said he has someone over him.
Then of course in various editions Io/Asgorath is portrayed as the Overdeity of the Dragon Pantheon, having existed since the dawn of existence and created all the known universe, and is the only deity that is commonly portrayed as being all alignments at once which is why they are known most commonly as The Ninefold Dragon. Some depictions of them in earlier editions even make it seem like they is so big and powerful that they basically are the whole of the D&D universe. (Of course as a dragon lover through and through I'm a bit biased here so take that into account)
In Eberron, we are given another example of all powerful dragons in the form of three great progenitor dragons: Siberys (the Dragon Above), Eberron (The Dragon Between), and Khyber (The Dragon Below). These three dragons worked together to create the whole of the planar system of Eberron's universe but when the last of the 13 worlds was being made, Khyber betrayed her siblings and "killed" Siberys, scattering his being upwards to make the heaven and birth the celestial. Eberron in an effort to stop Khyber wrapped her coils around her sister and became the world of Eberron itself, becoming the progenitor of all natural life on it's surface. Khyber becomes trapped within and becoming the Underdark, and births the various fiends and other dark abominations, including the Tiamat of this world. This is mostly coming from my knowledge of the lore in 3rd edition of course so I'm not sure if anything has been changes.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Ao. He created all gods and primordials, The Cristal Sphere which is the solar system and all planes of existence in the Forgotten Realms lor. Look him up.
Tharizdun is an interloper god to Oerth as well. And before anyone says it, no, he's NOT The Elder Elemental God (nor is he an aspect of him), thus spake his creator E. Gary Gygax. In fact, the EEG and Tharizdun were on opposites "sides" of Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire (they both supplied their "side" with forbidden magics). What's trapped on Oerth in The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun isn't him, but an Avatar of him (trapped by none other than the Archmage Tsojcanth around the time of the Twin Cataclysms). By comparison, the EEG IS trapped on Oerth (part of which is beneath The Temple of Elemental Evil) after Lolth and many of the gods of Greyhawk banded together to kick the drek out of him.
List of powerful entities/gods
AO, OVER GOD OF EVERYTHING
Hi everyone! I'm working up the will to finalize my signature, so... I guess this will be the signature for now
I don't think AO is a creator God of the Multiverse. Otherwise, you could make that argument for The High God of DragonLance since he is a Creator Demiurge as well.
If the Athar are correct it's probably the Great Unknown. And something is giving them divine magic...
Ao is just for the Realms. Same with the High God and Krynn.
Ao has no power anywhere but Realmspace. I mean yeah, if he somehow traveled to Greyspace or something he'd probably be powerful, but still he's only overlord of the Realms. Also, you forgot the Lady of Pain in your list, who literally has so much power she banned the gods from her city Sigil.
The only known, completely canon fact about the Lady of Pain is that she is not a god.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think you can only evaluate a gods power in their own realm. Outside its too tricky.
"h"
It was hinted that the Lady of Pain was something of being like the serpent that guided Vecna.
I think it is really a relative question depending on the game world.
I'd pick The Lady of Pain over Ao. I enjoy the lore surrounding her. She's enigmatic enough to be interesting. Ao for me is an idea that hasn't grown past the narratological contrivance it started as. The answer is, of course, whoever you can tell a compelling story about. The secret god from before time can be a fun story. If I were to tell it, I'd try to improvise on the theme. It's usually executed as, the secret god from before time is a threat. I might go with something like, the secret god from before time was trapped and prevented from helping by the real threat.
You should probably look at the "DnD universe" like the Marvel comic universe. Anything can happen and there is always a bigger fish and power levels shift all the time depending on source material. I wouldn't try to make any sense out of it. 😄 And much like Marvel, the DnD rulebooks also make references to Greek and Scandinavian gods etc.
If you are a player, you don't need to know because your DM is the ultimate god of the universe anyway so they will tell you if you need to know. If you are the DM, then you can decide or create a new god altogether. This my opinion. 😄
Finland GMT/UTC +2
to my knowledge it was thee light above or something which has the power level of the lady of pain in comparison to the lady of pain
i ask dumb question