I really like settings where the gods and afterlife are part of the world, so I often like to have the different races/species have at least a couple of their own deities, and build the various spiritualities of the species around said deities. They don't have to be in the characters' faces all the time, but I do like them as an active part of the world.
I have just never liked the goofy college-football team rivalry between Jack Kirby characters that passes for usual D&D religion.
What I've come to after a lot of refining is that the deities don't actually grant divine magic, but - if they want to - they can restrict it. What D&D mortals think of as D&D deities are much bigger smarter creatures living upstream from them and, if mortals thank them, it is because mortals use divine magic by their leave, even if that isn't how we, as mortals, perceive the relationship. I think this squares with all of the different seeming inconsistencies in D&D's cosmologies, from Oerth to Athas. So that's my approach in my homebrew world. It gives you enough flexibility to intervene for story reasons without committing to a "true" mythology.
On my main Homebrew continent, the dwarves and gnomes have their own religion; the orcs have theirs. Goblins have something syncretic. Dragons and giants ARE something. Elves are scientific humanists (forgive the irony) and drow are scientific humanists who have been kidnapped, held in a cave and tortured by a powerful demon for thousands of years. Half-elves are all over the place.
Fiends recently (no earlier than 2500 years ago) came to recognize that mortal races existed. Each, according to its nature, began to try to exploit this new resource for the Blood War. Angels, according to their nature, tried to protect mortal races from the fiends, whether by mentoring the mortals or by assaulting fiends. A lot of this cut-and-parry has worked its way into religious texts of one kind or another. The main focus of the fiends' efforts have been cornering the market on the fecund, and reliably mortal, human and halfling souls.
Humans and halflings have had and continue to have a dozen things, but - just to give me a world-building hook I can intuitively understand - their main thing at the moment is a tight group of squabbling sects centered around a monodeity preached about by a never-agreed upon roster of prophets and their armies of commentators who always seem to basically say 'be nice' but never seem like they actually mean it.
Tiefliings and Aasimar have therapy. Lots and lots of therapy.
There is an in-canon moment when the mortal races came into tune with divine energy and started being able to cast cleric spells, but - other than the fact that it's the foundational moment for the monodeity cult - I'm still working on that.
I think my goal is to make the whole thing so intimidating and dense that no player ever asks me about it, thereby drawing me into a talk about theology.
I have just never liked the goofy college-football team rivalry between Jack Kirby characters that passes for usual D&D religion.
What I've come to after a lot of refining is that the deities don't actually grant divine magic, but - if they want to - they can restrict it. What D&D mortals think of as D&D deities are much bigger smarter creatures living upstream from them and, if mortals thank them, it is because mortals use divine magic by their leave, even if that isn't how we, as mortals, perceive the relationship. I think this squares with all of the different seeming inconsistencies in D&D's cosmologies, from Oerth to Athas. So that's my approach in my homebrew world. It gives you enough flexibility to intervene for story reasons without committing to a "true" mythology.
On my main Homebrew continent, the dwarves and gnomes have their own religion; the orcs have theirs. Goblins have something syncretic. Dragons and giants ARE something. Elves are scientific humanists (forgive the irony) and drow are scientific humanists who have been kidnapped, held in a cave and tortured by a powerful demon for thousands of years. Half-elves are all over the place.
Fiends recently (no earlier than 2500 years ago) came to recognize that mortal races existed. Each, according to its nature, began to try to exploit this new resource for the Blood War. Angels, according to their nature, tried to protect mortal races from the fiends, whether by mentoring the mortals or by assaulting fiends. A lot of this cut-and-parry has worked its way into religious texts of one kind or another. The main focus of the fiends' efforts have been cornering the market on the fecund, and reliably mortal, human and halfling souls.
Humans and halflings have had and continue to have a dozen things, but - just to give me a world-building hook I can intuitively understand - their main thing at the moment is a tight group of squabbling sects centered around a monodeity preached about by a never-agreed upon roster of prophets and their armies of commentators who always seem to basically say 'be nice' but never seem like they actually mean it.
Tiefliings and Aasimar have therapy. Lots and lots of therapy.
There is an in-canon moment when the mortal races came into tune with divine energy and started being able to cast cleric spells, but - other than the fact that it's the foundational moment for the monodeity cult - I'm still working on that.
I think my goal is to make the whole thing so intimidating and dense that no player ever asks me about it, thereby drawing me into a talk about theology.
That's an interesting approach. Does that mean, canonically, that if someone were to kill the god of say, life, then a lot more people would suddenly have access to healing divine magics?
That does help to drive religious groups to more corrupt and controlling types - "only we can bless you with a good crop", because the God of the Harvest stops anyone else from doing so - driving up the offerings they receive through their church and so increasing their wealth/power/standing. The High Priests of the gods would know this is the deal, but the lower ones think they are blessed with extra powers instead of the rest of the world being denied them.
You know what, I'm looting this style for my world. I think that's brilliant!
I’ve always liked the concept of the gods-like beings walking among the mortal world, kinda like the Kaiju from the Godzilla franchise. Though they aren’t all just walking forces of nature and natural disasters.
My world had its own Dawn Wars, where the Primordials and the Gods fought over the plane. Only when the Gods won and looked upon their prize (the world), they saw it was war torn and unstable. So they abandoned the world and left all their mortal creations behind, believing the plane was doomed to destruction and beyond saving. However, several powerful creatures remained.
One group of beings was the Primal Spirits, the living embodiments of the natural world itself that arose in an effort to protect the world from the destruction the Dawn Wars was causing on its surface. Another group was the children and champions of the old gods that chose to remain on the plane, for they refused to give up on the plane or its people like the Gods did. Yet another group were those forever changed and empowered by the magical, arcane forces of the various other planes that were leaking into the Prime Material Plane. For one moment, united in a common goal despite allegiance or alignment, these forces came together to stabilize the plane. They gained the ability to imbue powers like the gods, creating new religions and a new pantheon.
Now, they roam the world. Some act as guardians who protect the plane from incursions from other planes. Others act as forces of nature or the conduits of cosmic or arcane power. Others act as gods or devils, demanding worship and sacrifice. Others as wise and benevolent, or cruel and tyrannical rulers. The most powerful of these beings even have their own demiplanes.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
In my world, the gods are divided into two sides (as is the case in a lot of worlds). There are the True Deities, led by the God of Life, and there are the Fallen, led by the God of Death and the Dead. The Fallen have been (mostly) expelled from the material plane, so they are scattered throughout the Outer Planes. The True Deities live in the Afterlife, where they, y’know, accept prayers and dole out divine power.
There are also people on the material plane known as (depending on who you ask) either the Avatars or the Blessed. These mortals have received a portion of the Divine Soul of a God, and as such have a lot of divine and magical power. Some Blessed rule their countries (such as the Council of the Archmagi- each Archmage is an Avatar of either the Goddess of Magic, or the God of Wizards), while others travel the world and attempt to help others. Then there are the people who choose to try and conquer the world, but we don’t talk about those guys.
There are also Demigods/extremely Minor Deities, who mostly live in seclusion on the material plane. Some, like the Giant Queen, rule their individual areas. Others, like the Frost Lord, have been imprisoned for eons. These quasi-deities can be encountered (and probably will be, they’re pretty meddling).
Finally, there are the Shattered, the Gods and Goddesses who have lost their divine form, for various reasons. They wield no divine power, but instead their souls just drift about aimlessly in the space between the planes. Some of them have Faded, effectively dying. Others have Broken, becoming eldritch horrors. And others just...sit there. Waiting.
Priesthoods and orders are spread across the plane. Some have managed to get a foothold in multiple continents, while others have been relegated to small pockets in the wilderness. In general, orders of the divine are led by powerful Clerics and/or Paladins, depending on the nature of the order.
That’s...basically it. There are ~50-ish deities, each of different power levels and domains, some of which can be warlock patrons as well. It gets complicated 😅. I’ve planned out the areas and major figures in roughly half of the deities (some are easier than others). Still have a lot of work to do.
Personal Favorites: True Deities: Adros, Goddess of Magic, and Faorr, God of Wizards. Their priesthood is one of the main Group Patrons for the campaign I’m building. | Fallen: Vodkai, Goddess of Destruction. She’s responsible for a big part of the lore in my world (she destroyed most of the ancient civilizations when she was released upon the plane from her prison in Limbo- she actually returned voluntarily, as she preferred the chaos of Limbo to the material plane). | Demigods: Fealwyrn, the Sea Giantess. Queen of the Giants, and Empress of the Sea! Her royal court is an interesting political landscape. | Shattered: Keros, the God of Evil. He’s one of the ‘just hangin’’ deities. The BBEG of my campaign is planning on resurrecting him so that the BBEG can possess his body. | Avatar/Blessed: Varog of Kelna. Or, more specifically, the 400+ Varog Simulacrums that teach at the Faorr Academy of Magic.
*Sorry if it was a bit long, I’m on mobile so I can’t put things in Spoilers very easily. :\*
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
Nice lore, Mandos! Very interesting. I'll put my favorite deities as well, thanks for the idea.
Favorite Primordial God: That's hard, I like Saevaran (he's the god of air and dragons, so what's not to like?), but I also like Vastril (the god of fire and intellect, and the only primordial god who was level-headed enough not to create a race). Favorite "Greater" God: I have a special love for Telogi, the Radiant Arrow. He's the god of light, purity, and honorable warfare, plus his name and title are just awesome. I also like Exiris, god of fear and madness. He's fun at parties, and his holy symbol (an inverted black star) was one of my more clever ideas. Favorite "Minor" God: Probably a tie between Golorok, god of contentment and gluttony, and Avara, goddess of the harvest and celebrations. Golorok is one of the main gods of the Thri-kreen, one of my favorite races, and I had a burst of artistic talent when I created his holy symbol. I like Avara because no matter what happens, she just keeps on doing her job. Famine? She brings a harvest. War? She brings a harvest. Demons destroying the world? She brings a harvest (until she sacrifices her life energy to save the world, but don't mind that.)
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
They're not really that. They adopted their domains, more like the Zeus/Hades/Poseidon thing than innate abilities.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
They're not really that. They adopted their domains, more like the Zeus/Hades/Poseidon thing than innate abilities.
Ahhh...okay. That makes more sense. But still, I feel like a fair few worlds have the Primordials being the super ancient world-creators (TM), and I have no idea why.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
They're not really that. They adopted their domains, more like the Zeus/Hades/Poseidon thing than innate abilities.
Ahhh...okay. That makes more sense. But still, I feel like a fair few worlds have the Primordials being the super ancient world-creators (TM), and I have no idea why.
Yeah, they're called Primordial as in the dictionary definition "existing at or from the beginning of time," not as in Elementals. I agree with you that it's weird, though.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
They're not really that. They adopted their domains, more like the Zeus/Hades/Poseidon thing than innate abilities.
Ahhh...okay. That makes more sense. But still, I feel like a fair few worlds have the Primordials being the super ancient world-creators (TM), and I have no idea why.
Yeah, they're called Primordial as in the dictionary definition "existing at or from the beginning of time," not as in Elementals. I agree with you that it's weird, though.
Ohhhh...okay! I always took them to mean roughly the same thing. Thanks, TTB.
Just looked it up- seems like they took their root from the Forgotten Realms, around 4e-time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
They're not really that. They adopted their domains, more like the Zeus/Hades/Poseidon thing than innate abilities.
Ahhh...okay. That makes more sense. But still, I feel like a fair few worlds have the Primordials being the super ancient world-creators (TM), and I have no idea why.
Yeah, they're called Primordial as in the dictionary definition "existing at or from the beginning of time," not as in Elementals. I agree with you that it's weird, though.
Ohhhh...okay! I always took them to mean roughly the same thing. Thanks, TTB.
Just looked it up- seems like they took their root from the Forgotten Realms, around 4e-time.
Hmm... interesting. Strong with the powers of Google-fu, you are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
They're not really that. They adopted their domains, more like the Zeus/Hades/Poseidon thing than innate abilities.
Ahhh...okay. That makes more sense. But still, I feel like a fair few worlds have the Primordials being the super ancient world-creators (TM), and I have no idea why.
Yeah, they're called Primordial as in the dictionary definition "existing at or from the beginning of time," not as in Elementals. I agree with you that it's weird, though.
Ohhhh...okay! I always took them to mean roughly the same thing. Thanks, TTB.
Just looked it up- seems like they took their root from the Forgotten Realms, around 4e-time.
Hmm... interesting. Strong with the powers of Google-fu, you are.
Yeah, it was 4e’s main creation myth. They adapted it for the Forgotten Realms but was primarily for the editions main plane of Nethir Vale/The Points of Light.
Basically, there was nothing. Then, the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea came into existence and with it the various realms within these places. The Primordials were the masters of the Elemental Chaos, who decided to one day make a plane of their own from the pieces of element within their plane. The pieces that were “too bright” and “too dark were thrown away. Those bright pieces eventually formed into the Feywilds, while the dark pieces formed into the Shadowfell. These planes were the light and dark reflections of the Material Plane. While the Material Plane was a solid place, it still raged with the chaotic energies of the elements.
Meanwhile, in the Astral Sea the Gods had formed. One day, they noticed the bare plane the Primordials created and desired to create something of their own. So the Gods basically trespassed, tamed the chaotic plane, and breathed life into it. This created all life and brought stability to the world. They then ruled over their creations in person for there was nothing keeping the greater beings from walking on the surface of the Material Plane.
When the Primordials found out, they were royally pissed off that the Gods brought stability to their beautiful chaos. So they declared that they would destroy the plane they created. The Gods of course wouldn’t allow that because their creations would be destroyed and they had an all out war across the many planes. Gods and Primordials were killed, chained, and corrupted and everything was a mess until the Gods won. Then the Primal Spirits, the embodiments of the natural world, decided that the Gods couldn’t be trusted to not war among themselves and they created a barrier that would deny the Gods and Primordials direct access to the plane.
So tldr: Primordials built a house, Gods put their children in the house. They fought over who owned the deed, then the house came alive and said “nah, I own myself” and set up home security to protect the children from their abuse. Now the Gods can only give child support from afar.
I'm sort of with TimCurtin on the football team jersey boredom. I think the OP question can be unpacked a bit. In my game, which is predicated to a degree off existing lore, there's a cosmology consisting of planes of existence, some of which is described and some of which is not, but the totality of it is just largely never going to be known by any mortal being. Within this cosmos there are various ... beings, entities, forces. Some of which fit into the "god" mode, others don't at all and there's a lot that occupies the space between those poles.
But that stew's cosmology. Religion in my game are practices putting faith into forces beyond mortal capacity, usually for the purpose of some mix of solace "help me", power "grant me" or purpose "thy will be done." In some parts of the material plane that faith is given to a god or a group of gods (a Cleric need not be focused on a particular god, but rather appeal to a handful of gods that may address that Cleric's domain, though dedicated servants are a thing too). In other parts other forces are revered (reflective of things like Oath of Ancients, what some Druids can tap into, arguably "The Weave", etc, but could also simply be anything from nature, to animal spirits, to the sky, to even a monarchy, the latter begging a lot of questions in terms of the cosmology). There are established churches, there are cults, there are individual practices, and there are folks who, well you can't be "atheist" and worldly since these supernatural forces exist in game, but you can be sort of agnostic where you're aware of these beings possible hold on mortal or cosmic destiny but you're not explicitly choosing a side in all that ... I guess sort of secular humanoidism.
Most humanoid souls don't come from the gods. The gods and other parties invested in the great game of the cosmos don't say where souls come from, and they may not know. That's why souls so valuable to divine and paradivine entities. You could say there's an economy of souls, and improper diversion of souls from another powers claim is cause for war or other forms of antagonism, but "greater" beings' hold on the flow of souls isn't as strong as some humanoid religions think it is.
Any effort to chronicle the ongoings of the cosmology in mortal terms is kaleidoscopically futile. So mortals make what they can of what's going on "up there" and "down there" and "out there" and do their best to apply it to their own moment ... which is why religions in my game wind up with some many contradictions and equivocations.
As a DM, this set up gives me a lot more control than any sort of "lore binding" establishment of religion and cosmology as it works in my game world.
Thank you, Thauraeln! I'm glad you like it. Where the tension you noticed comes most into play is healing magic. The various religions each want to control the trade in healing in their region and so non-magical healing has suffered as a science due to the entrance barriers they've erected on the trade. They can cure cancer with magic, but barbers are still pulling teeth and people in the backcountry are still drilling holes in skulls to let demons out.
The druids - those stubborn, backwards, paganistic druids - have studied the problems extensively for millennia and have a lot of highly useful public-health ideas, but no one wants to hear from those hippies. Meanwhile, in the great cities of Men, sooner or later you end up with spell casters with finite spell slots trying to keep up with the exponential spread of an outbreak of smallpox, which leads to a boom-bust population cycle. This is what knocked the orcs back into the Iron Age. The Northlands are chockablock with crazy old cities and tombs and monuments to kings and emperors of a civilization that never took off the way their builders imagined. Which give dungeon crawlers a whole big sandbox to play in.
To answer your follow-up: Right now I visualize divine magic as a fungible resource accessed and shaped by the faith and the needs of the spellcaster; domains (for instance) can be whatever a player wants, it's more a matter of personality. If a god died, it's possible that their followers wouldn't even notice, which might lead to a large community of them being slowly led astray by the fiends.
But they don't cut off specific effects , the way I do it. They either build a dam upriver, cutting off access to their follower, or they don't. I think I came to this idea out of how angry I was that my AD&D druid had to bend the knee to Kiri-Jolith on Krynn in order to keep the spells he learned on Oerth.
Well, I haven't really come up with any specific names/roles yet, but there are Mortals, Greater Gods, and Lesser Gods.
Greater Gods have lots of influence over mortals. Mortals have a lot of influence over Lesser Gods. Lesser Gods pretty much rule the Greater Gods from behind the scenes. So everything that gets done is the preference of one of these groups, almost never the others. That's why they split into different categories. (Each race used to have a god and everyone was a Greater God, but some gods - the gods of the races - wanted to experience work and suffering since they never had before, so they split and became the Mortals. Some gods still wanted to consider them gods. Those split up and became the Lesser Gods. And the last group didn't want to consider either group gods like them, the Greater Gods, but the Lesser Gods, despite their name, still had more power. So pretty much an endless cycle.) This gives the Mortals an unusual amount of power. However, requests/demands are carried out very slowly through the cycle. So if they request something from the Lesser Gods, (which very few actually know to do) it will take at least half a century to get back to them through the Greater Gods.
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I am a Sauce Acolyte, Sauce Knight, Sauce Defender, Sauce Monk, Sauce Brewer, and Sauce Priest of the Supreme Court of Sauce because of my homebrew Rogue subclass, the Hot One, as well as my homebrew spell,Saucy Creation. Oh, I'm also a Sauce Serenader for the College of Sauce.
what do you guys do to make your religions and what gods did you decide to choose or create share it with us
I really like settings where the gods and afterlife are part of the world, so I often like to have the different races/species have at least a couple of their own deities, and build the various spiritualities of the species around said deities. They don't have to be in the characters' faces all the time, but I do like them as an active part of the world.
I honestly don't have gods in my world, but demon lords and other high CR creatures are the equivalent.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
I have just never liked the goofy college-football team rivalry between Jack Kirby characters that passes for usual D&D religion.
What I've come to after a lot of refining is that the deities don't actually grant divine magic, but - if they want to - they can restrict it. What D&D mortals think of as D&D deities are much bigger smarter creatures living upstream from them and, if mortals thank them, it is because mortals use divine magic by their leave, even if that isn't how we, as mortals, perceive the relationship. I think this squares with all of the different seeming inconsistencies in D&D's cosmologies, from Oerth to Athas. So that's my approach in my homebrew world. It gives you enough flexibility to intervene for story reasons without committing to a "true" mythology.
On my main Homebrew continent, the dwarves and gnomes have their own religion; the orcs have theirs. Goblins have something syncretic. Dragons and giants ARE something. Elves are scientific humanists (forgive the irony) and drow are scientific humanists who have been kidnapped, held in a cave and tortured by a powerful demon for thousands of years. Half-elves are all over the place.
Fiends recently (no earlier than 2500 years ago) came to recognize that mortal races existed. Each, according to its nature, began to try to exploit this new resource for the Blood War. Angels, according to their nature, tried to protect mortal races from the fiends, whether by mentoring the mortals or by assaulting fiends. A lot of this cut-and-parry has worked its way into religious texts of one kind or another. The main focus of the fiends' efforts have been cornering the market on the fecund, and reliably mortal, human and halfling souls.
Humans and halflings have had and continue to have a dozen things, but - just to give me a world-building hook I can intuitively understand - their main thing at the moment is a tight group of squabbling sects centered around a monodeity preached about by a never-agreed upon roster of prophets and their armies of commentators who always seem to basically say 'be nice' but never seem like they actually mean it.
Tiefliings and Aasimar have therapy. Lots and lots of therapy.
There is an in-canon moment when the mortal races came into tune with divine energy and started being able to cast cleric spells, but - other than the fact that it's the foundational moment for the monodeity cult - I'm still working on that.
I think my goal is to make the whole thing so intimidating and dense that no player ever asks me about it, thereby drawing me into a talk about theology.
That's an interesting approach. Does that mean, canonically, that if someone were to kill the god of say, life, then a lot more people would suddenly have access to healing divine magics?
That does help to drive religious groups to more corrupt and controlling types - "only we can bless you with a good crop", because the God of the Harvest stops anyone else from doing so - driving up the offerings they receive through their church and so increasing their wealth/power/standing. The High Priests of the gods would know this is the deal, but the lower ones think they are blessed with extra powers instead of the rest of the world being denied them.
You know what, I'm looting this style for my world. I think that's brilliant!
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I’ve always liked the concept of the gods-like beings walking among the mortal world, kinda like the Kaiju from the Godzilla franchise. Though they aren’t all just walking forces of nature and natural disasters.
My world had its own Dawn Wars, where the Primordials and the Gods fought over the plane. Only when the Gods won and looked upon their prize (the world), they saw it was war torn and unstable. So they abandoned the world and left all their mortal creations behind, believing the plane was doomed to destruction and beyond saving. However, several powerful creatures remained.
One group of beings was the Primal Spirits, the living embodiments of the natural world itself that arose in an effort to protect the world from the destruction the Dawn Wars was causing on its surface. Another group was the children and champions of the old gods that chose to remain on the plane, for they refused to give up on the plane or its people like the Gods did. Yet another group were those forever changed and empowered by the magical, arcane forces of the various other planes that were leaking into the Prime Material Plane. For one moment, united in a common goal despite allegiance or alignment, these forces came together to stabilize the plane. They gained the ability to imbue powers like the gods, creating new religions and a new pantheon.
Now, they roam the world. Some act as guardians who protect the plane from incursions from other planes. Others act as forces of nature or the conduits of cosmic or arcane power. Others act as gods or devils, demanding worship and sacrifice. Others as wise and benevolent, or cruel and tyrannical rulers. The most powerful of these beings even have their own demiplanes.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
In the beginning my world, there were only the four primordial gods: Brogon (Earth), Saevaran (Air), Elanumnar (Water), and Vastril (fire). These gods also each governed one of the four components of ideal life: Strength for Brogon, Intuition for Saevaran, Adaptability for Elanumnar, and Intellect for Vastril.
Thousands of years later, when the time of mortal creatures began, three new gods were made: Arvinal, god of day and life, Xenestyä, goddess of night and death, and Rósonon, god of the stars and magic. However, instead of bickering over the world main continent, these gods decided to make their own, far to the west, beyond the Western Sea. Eventually, this continent became the homeland of the elves.
The rest of the gods came into being in similar ways, each creating new species to worship them, or attempting to draw worship from existing ones.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
In my world, the gods are divided into two sides (as is the case in a lot of worlds). There are the True Deities, led by the God of Life, and there are the Fallen, led by the God of Death and the Dead. The Fallen have been (mostly) expelled from the material plane, so they are scattered throughout the Outer Planes. The True Deities live in the Afterlife, where they, y’know, accept prayers and dole out divine power.
There are also people on the material plane known as (depending on who you ask) either the Avatars or the Blessed. These mortals have received a portion of the Divine Soul of a God, and as such have a lot of divine and magical power. Some Blessed rule their countries (such as the Council of the Archmagi- each Archmage is an Avatar of either the Goddess of Magic, or the God of Wizards), while others travel the world and attempt to help others. Then there are the people who choose to try and conquer the world, but we don’t talk about those guys.
There are also Demigods/extremely Minor Deities, who mostly live in seclusion on the material plane. Some, like the Giant Queen, rule their individual areas. Others, like the Frost Lord, have been imprisoned for eons. These quasi-deities can be encountered (and probably will be, they’re pretty meddling).
Finally, there are the Shattered, the Gods and Goddesses who have lost their divine form, for various reasons. They wield no divine power, but instead their souls just drift about aimlessly in the space between the planes. Some of them have Faded, effectively dying. Others have Broken, becoming eldritch horrors. And others just...sit there. Waiting.
Priesthoods and orders are spread across the plane. Some have managed to get a foothold in multiple continents, while others have been relegated to small pockets in the wilderness. In general, orders of the divine are led by powerful Clerics and/or Paladins, depending on the nature of the order.
That’s...basically it. There are ~50-ish deities, each of different power levels and domains, some of which can be warlock patrons as well. It gets complicated 😅. I’ve planned out the areas and major figures in roughly half of the deities (some are easier than others). Still have a lot of work to do.
Personal Favorites: True Deities: Adros, Goddess of Magic, and Faorr, God of Wizards. Their priesthood is one of the main Group Patrons for the campaign I’m building. | Fallen: Vodkai, Goddess of Destruction. She’s responsible for a big part of the lore in my world (she destroyed most of the ancient civilizations when she was released upon the plane from her prison in Limbo- she actually returned voluntarily, as she preferred the chaos of Limbo to the material plane). | Demigods: Fealwyrn, the Sea Giantess. Queen of the Giants, and Empress of the Sea! Her royal court is an interesting political landscape. | Shattered: Keros, the God of Evil. He’s one of the ‘just hangin’’ deities. The BBEG of my campaign is planning on resurrecting him so that the BBEG can possess his body. | Avatar/Blessed: Varog of Kelna. Or, more specifically, the 400+ Varog Simulacrums that teach at the Faorr Academy of Magic.
*Sorry if it was a bit long, I’m on mobile so I can’t put things in Spoilers very easily. :\*
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
Savior/Sovereign/Saint Foresworn/Traitor/Trusted/Tortured Truthborn/Chosen/Cursed
Created by deities/Created by mortals/Created by powers unseen/Unheard of
Fate speaks of one/Fate speaks to none/Eternal shadows/Day is Done.
I’ve never really understood the whole ‘ancient primordial/elemental beings created the world/gods’ thing... Why is it that that seems to be the default? Is there some reason from previous editions? Or is it just a coincidence? Is it CR lore seeping into everything? Am I just missing something?
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
Savior/Sovereign/Saint Foresworn/Traitor/Trusted/Tortured Truthborn/Chosen/Cursed
Created by deities/Created by mortals/Created by powers unseen/Unheard of
Fate speaks of one/Fate speaks to none/Eternal shadows/Day is Done.
Nice lore, Mandos! Very interesting. I'll put my favorite deities as well, thanks for the idea.
Favorite Primordial God: That's hard, I like Saevaran (he's the god of air and dragons, so what's not to like?), but I also like Vastril (the god of fire and intellect, and the only primordial god who was level-headed enough not to create a race).
Favorite "Greater" God: I have a special love for Telogi, the Radiant Arrow. He's the god of light, purity, and honorable warfare, plus his name and title are just awesome. I also like Exiris, god of fear and madness. He's fun at parties, and his holy symbol (an inverted black star) was one of my more clever ideas.
Favorite "Minor" God: Probably a tie between Golorok, god of contentment and gluttony, and Avara, goddess of the harvest and celebrations. Golorok is one of the main gods of the Thri-kreen, one of my favorite races, and I had a burst of artistic talent when I created his holy symbol. I like Avara because no matter what happens, she just keeps on doing her job. Famine? She brings a harvest. War? She brings a harvest. Demons destroying the world? She brings a harvest (until she sacrifices her life energy to save the world, but don't mind that.)
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
They're not really that. They adopted their domains, more like the Zeus/Hades/Poseidon thing than innate abilities.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Ahhh...okay. That makes more sense. But still, I feel like a fair few worlds have the Primordials being the super ancient world-creators (TM), and I have no idea why.
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
Savior/Sovereign/Saint Foresworn/Traitor/Trusted/Tortured Truthborn/Chosen/Cursed
Created by deities/Created by mortals/Created by powers unseen/Unheard of
Fate speaks of one/Fate speaks to none/Eternal shadows/Day is Done.
Yeah, they're called Primordial as in the dictionary definition "existing at or from the beginning of time," not as in Elementals. I agree with you that it's weird, though.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Ohhhh...okay! I always took them to mean roughly the same thing. Thanks, TTB.
Just looked it up- seems like they took their root from the Forgotten Realms, around 4e-time.
Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
Savior/Sovereign/Saint Foresworn/Traitor/Trusted/Tortured Truthborn/Chosen/Cursed
Created by deities/Created by mortals/Created by powers unseen/Unheard of
Fate speaks of one/Fate speaks to none/Eternal shadows/Day is Done.
Hmm... interesting. Strong with the powers of Google-fu, you are.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Yeah, it was 4e’s main creation myth. They adapted it for the Forgotten Realms but was primarily for the editions main plane of Nethir Vale/The Points of Light.
Basically, there was nothing. Then, the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea came into existence and with it the various realms within these places. The Primordials were the masters of the Elemental Chaos, who decided to one day make a plane of their own from the pieces of element within their plane. The pieces that were “too bright” and “too dark were thrown away. Those bright pieces eventually formed into the Feywilds, while the dark pieces formed into the Shadowfell. These planes were the light and dark reflections of the Material Plane. While the Material Plane was a solid place, it still raged with the chaotic energies of the elements.
Meanwhile, in the Astral Sea the Gods had formed. One day, they noticed the bare plane the Primordials created and desired to create something of their own. So the Gods basically trespassed, tamed the chaotic plane, and breathed life into it. This created all life and brought stability to the world. They then ruled over their creations in person for there was nothing keeping the greater beings from walking on the surface of the Material Plane.
When the Primordials found out, they were royally pissed off that the Gods brought stability to their beautiful chaos. So they declared that they would destroy the plane they created. The Gods of course wouldn’t allow that because their creations would be destroyed and they had an all out war across the many planes. Gods and Primordials were killed, chained, and corrupted and everything was a mess until the Gods won. Then the Primal Spirits, the embodiments of the natural world, decided that the Gods couldn’t be trusted to not war among themselves and they created a barrier that would deny the Gods and Primordials direct access to the plane.
So tldr: Primordials built a house, Gods put their children in the house. They fought over who owned the deed, then the house came alive and said “nah, I own myself” and set up home security to protect the children from their abuse. Now the Gods can only give child support from afar.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
I'm sort of with TimCurtin on the football team jersey boredom. I think the OP question can be unpacked a bit. In my game, which is predicated to a degree off existing lore, there's a cosmology consisting of planes of existence, some of which is described and some of which is not, but the totality of it is just largely never going to be known by any mortal being. Within this cosmos there are various ... beings, entities, forces. Some of which fit into the "god" mode, others don't at all and there's a lot that occupies the space between those poles.
But that stew's cosmology. Religion in my game are practices putting faith into forces beyond mortal capacity, usually for the purpose of some mix of solace "help me", power "grant me" or purpose "thy will be done." In some parts of the material plane that faith is given to a god or a group of gods (a Cleric need not be focused on a particular god, but rather appeal to a handful of gods that may address that Cleric's domain, though dedicated servants are a thing too). In other parts other forces are revered (reflective of things like Oath of Ancients, what some Druids can tap into, arguably "The Weave", etc, but could also simply be anything from nature, to animal spirits, to the sky, to even a monarchy, the latter begging a lot of questions in terms of the cosmology). There are established churches, there are cults, there are individual practices, and there are folks who, well you can't be "atheist" and worldly since these supernatural forces exist in game, but you can be sort of agnostic where you're aware of these beings possible hold on mortal or cosmic destiny but you're not explicitly choosing a side in all that ... I guess sort of secular humanoidism.
Most humanoid souls don't come from the gods. The gods and other parties invested in the great game of the cosmos don't say where souls come from, and they may not know. That's why souls so valuable to divine and paradivine entities. You could say there's an economy of souls, and improper diversion of souls from another powers claim is cause for war or other forms of antagonism, but "greater" beings' hold on the flow of souls isn't as strong as some humanoid religions think it is.
Any effort to chronicle the ongoings of the cosmology in mortal terms is kaleidoscopically futile. So mortals make what they can of what's going on "up there" and "down there" and "out there" and do their best to apply it to their own moment ... which is why religions in my game wind up with some many contradictions and equivocations.
As a DM, this set up gives me a lot more control than any sort of "lore binding" establishment of religion and cosmology as it works in my game world.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thank you, Thauraeln! I'm glad you like it. Where the tension you noticed comes most into play is healing magic. The various religions each want to control the trade in healing in their region and so non-magical healing has suffered as a science due to the entrance barriers they've erected on the trade. They can cure cancer with magic, but barbers are still pulling teeth and people in the backcountry are still drilling holes in skulls to let demons out.
The druids - those stubborn, backwards, paganistic druids - have studied the problems extensively for millennia and have a lot of highly useful public-health ideas, but no one wants to hear from those hippies. Meanwhile, in the great cities of Men, sooner or later you end up with spell casters with finite spell slots trying to keep up with the exponential spread of an outbreak of smallpox, which leads to a boom-bust population cycle. This is what knocked the orcs back into the Iron Age. The Northlands are chockablock with crazy old cities and tombs and monuments to kings and emperors of a civilization that never took off the way their builders imagined. Which give dungeon crawlers a whole big sandbox to play in.
To answer your follow-up: Right now I visualize divine magic as a fungible resource accessed and shaped by the faith and the needs of the spellcaster; domains (for instance) can be whatever a player wants, it's more a matter of personality. If a god died, it's possible that their followers wouldn't even notice, which might lead to a large community of them being slowly led astray by the fiends.
But they don't cut off specific effects , the way I do it. They either build a dam upriver, cutting off access to their follower, or they don't. I think I came to this idea out of how angry I was that my AD&D druid had to bend the knee to Kiri-Jolith on Krynn in order to keep the spells he learned on Oerth.
Well, I haven't really come up with any specific names/roles yet, but there are Mortals, Greater Gods, and Lesser Gods.
Greater Gods have lots of influence over mortals. Mortals have a lot of influence over Lesser Gods. Lesser Gods pretty much rule the Greater Gods from behind the scenes. So everything that gets done is the preference of one of these groups, almost never the others. That's why they split into different categories. (Each race used to have a god and everyone was a Greater God, but some gods - the gods of the races - wanted to experience work and suffering since they never had before, so they split and became the Mortals. Some gods still wanted to consider them gods. Those split up and became the Lesser Gods. And the last group didn't want to consider either group gods like them, the Greater Gods, but the Lesser Gods, despite their name, still had more power. So pretty much an endless cycle.) This gives the Mortals an unusual amount of power. However, requests/demands are carried out very slowly through the cycle. So if they request something from the Lesser Gods, (which very few actually know to do) it will take at least half a century to get back to them through the Greater Gods.
I am a Sauce Acolyte, Sauce Knight, Sauce Defender, Sauce Monk, Sauce Brewer, and Sauce Priest of the Supreme Court of Sauce because of my homebrew Rogue subclass, the Hot One, as well as my homebrew spell, Saucy Creation. Oh, I'm also a Sauce Serenader for the College of Sauce.
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