Also, there is one other matter. As we are talking about Forgotten realms. Let's dismiss the first drow creation theory (Correlon blessing as is described in Mordekainen Tome of Foes). Let's accept that there are new communities of "drow" that weren't hit by Crown wars and the ritual that "made" dark elves into the drow as we know them today. The logical conclusion then is that these new elves aren't drow and that they are original dark elves with dark skin and brown hair. No alabaster skin, no violet eyes. I would accept that. But they would not be the drow, they would still be the original Ssri-tel-quessir - dark elves.
Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that from what's been said, those "Drow" shouldn't be Drow at all but Dark Elves at best.
Yes and no. Drow are also called Dark Elves, like Sun Elves are also called Gold Elves, etc. But Drow were also called Dark Elves (or Ssri-tel-quessir if you be fancy) before they become Drow. So while it's not wrong to called Drow - Dark Elves, it often refers to when Dark Elves were no yet Drow
In my opinion, cultural evilness is part of what makes drow drow. Getting rid of that turns them into edgy elves with black skin and white hair, which is an entirely different thing.
I don't see how having two enclaves of Drow that live apart from Corelion-kind as well as their Llothian peers retroactively damages anything. Fantastic lore should always assume unreliable narration because the perspective of the lore writer isn't a totality. Other perspectives can broader or shift the view. Ellistrae was a novelty at one point too folks. This is a similar move but far more geographically removed than Elistrae was.
I'm also pretty darn sure it's not like some Ship crews of Luskan are going to be hanging around the docks and suddenly these two Carnival Cruise liners full of these new Drow show up to party with WhiteClaw Surge on tap while Bregan D'aerthe soils themselves at the existential threat to the perpetuation of their way of life. It's pretty clear these communities are going to be reached by Drizzt and maybe his Icewind Dale buddies after some arduous trekking to places where people who want to be left alone had been left alone for some time now. And more likely than not, they'll be left alone since I don't see a lot of Realms sweeping fiction or event adventure hardbacks making them suddenly major players in the FR's faction churn. This is a pointed way of saying "relax.".
Folks standing on the integrity of some strongly adhered consistent canon in _The Forgotten Realms_ is perplexing. I recognize the Sword Coast geographically on a map, but it's a very different place politically, theologically, demographically, magicologically etc. from what it was in my beat up boxed set from '88(?). Besides Ellistrae showing up, how many times have the Realm's pantheon changed? It's one thing to have something released and after hearing evaluations from peers in the community, say "nah, not for me." But this speculative contempt just seems more like anger at some perceived "who moved my cheese" sorts of real world slights we're projecting on D&D. It's not a good look.
Magnitude matters. If these new drow are two relatively small settlements somewhere on the edge of the world practical nobody will bat an eye. The problem is that the matter is now presented that all we know is a lie and "everyone is wrong". The Drow as we know them are now being reduced to "splinter group", "pocket of elves that became isolationist", "there are whole societies that did not follow Lolth to Underdark". Which of course irks so many people. If that really was the case It would be unnecessary and it would contradict all the lore we previously had (in one of the origin stories drow were created by Correlon when he took his blessing from them in the other they were forced to Underdark by sun elven ritual in Crown wars. In both cases, in neither of cases drow "followed Lolth to Underdark" which is what the Dragon article says).
Also, there is one other matter. As we are talking about Forgotten realms. Let's dismiss the first drow creation theory (Correlon blessing as is described in Mordekainen Tome of Foes). Let's accept that there are new communities of "drow" that weren't hit by Crown wars and the ritual that "made" dark elves into the drow as we know them today. The logical conclusion then is that these new elves aren't drow and that they are original dark elves with dark skin and brown hair. No alabaster skin, no violet eyes. I would accept that. But they would not be the drow, they would still be the original Ssri-tel-quessir - dark elves.
Change is inevitable, we all know that. The setting has changed many times and as we all can see from 4e, not every change is for good. As I wrote above I feel that it is important to change things like evolution, not revolution (those are almost universally bad), and that why I feel that whole new drow societies are a bad thing.
Prior to this ... what you see as a radical event, how many Drow are thought to be on Faerun? Billions? Millions? Hundreds of thousands? Tens of thousands? Thousands? What number constitutes a society? I can understand how some players may feel threatened that "their Drow" are being displaced, but in no way do I find this new lore and challenge to the Lloth myth in any way diminishing the footprint, impact, and hand the Menzo Drow have on making the Forgotten Realms what they are. Having one book describing one of the societies as an enclave is telling. Maybe Menzo itself can be thought of as an enclave, but it's always struck me as something greater, at least a megapolis (now thinking of what would populate Drow suburban sprawl, but that's a self-amusing digression). A society of Drow who followed Lloth underground and have been a threat to the peace and wellbeing of surface dwellers (through enslaving surface dwellers as well as having a Abyssal consumption overarching ideology) is not diminished if there's been a "hidden story" of other elves who separated from Corellon, didn't follow Lloth and sort of waved off any role in the rest of the development of Faerun, regardless of demographies.
I think a lot of players are drawn to Drow because they like the notion of elves who play in the dark, so to speak. I think there is a place for "elves who play in the dark" who are not consumed by Lloth but tied to the same story of separation from Corellon. In some ways I sort of think of the relationship between the Sith and Night Sisters in Star Wars. They're both "Dark Side" but practiced very differently. What might be interesting, but given Salvatore's capacity as a writer, I'm doubtful, is we might have something with the Drow akin to something suggested in the Feywild Hobgoblin. There's a canon Hobgoblin that casts them as spartan Klingon types. The Feywild plays them up more communitarian, something almost out of labyrinth and fairy tales of that sort. They have a similar racial feature but while it's "saving face" for established hobgoblins, for fey hobgoblins its drawing on community bonds ... mechanically a hobgoblin gets an opportunity to reroll with a bonus based on the number of allies/friends who witnessed what would have been a failure. The UA kobold seems to be a similar effort but they're right up doesn't do much to tease the difference or even acknowledge the prior kobold existence. Back to Hobgoblins, I've already played around with the implied lore in the UA and have the Faerun Hobgoblins and the Fey Hobgoblins both claim the other is some offshoot that left their original plane, the debates always breaking down to both sides finger pointing and shouting "No, YOU'RE the lost ones." In the end, the "truth" doesn't matter in fantasy fiction. It's the dynamics the lore offers that's actually played with in game. It's how it's handled that matters.
I would be curious to see D&D do something like this with Drow, as it's laid out, it's something that is easily ignored I imagine by most games, (again, not seeing Carnival cruise ships of Nu-Drow showing up in Luskan to displace the Drow who've got their hands busy there). Both these Drow societies sound to me sort of like Shangri'la myths a la lost Horizon. Drizzt finds them, and finds I'm betting physical and psychic solace in them. Though his pain, because Drizzt, is that while they are what he wishes the Drow he knew would be, they will do nothing to help him change his world of origin. So the emo of Drizzt continues, which is probably one of the major bullets on the white board that workshopped this idea in the first place.
I don't see how having two enclaves of Drow that live apart from Corelion-kind as well as their Llothian peers retroactively damages anything. Fantastic lore should always assume unreliable narration because the perspective of the lore writer isn't a totality. Other perspectives can broader or shift the view. Ellistrae was a novelty at one point too folks. This is a similar move but far more geographically removed than Elistrae was.
I'm also pretty darn sure it's not like some Ship crews of Luskan are going to be hanging around the docks and suddenly these two Carnival Cruise liners full of these new Drow show up to party with WhiteClaw Surge on tap while Bregan D'aerthe soils themselves at the existential threat to the perpetuation of their way of life. It's pretty clear these communities are going to be reached by Drizzt and maybe his Icewind Dale buddies after some arduous trekking to places where people who want to be left alone had been left alone for some time now. And more likely than not, they'll be left alone since I don't see a lot of Realms sweeping fiction or event adventure hardbacks making them suddenly major players in the FR's faction churn. This is a pointed way of saying "relax.".
Folks standing on the integrity of some strongly adhered consistent canon in _The Forgotten Realms_ is perplexing. I recognize the Sword Coast geographically on a map, but it's a very different place politically, theologically, demographically, magicologically etc. from what it was in my beat up boxed set from '88(?). Besides Ellistrae showing up, how many times have the Realm's pantheon changed? It's one thing to have something released and after hearing evaluations from peers in the community, say "nah, not for me." But this speculative contempt just seems more like anger at some perceived "who moved my cheese" sorts of real world slights we're projecting on D&D. It's not a good look.
Magnitude matters. If these new drow are two relatively small settlements somewhere on the edge of the world practical nobody will bat an eye. The problem is that the matter is now presented that all we know is a lie and "everyone is wrong". The Drow as we know them are now being reduced to "splinter group", "pocket of elves that became isolationist", "there are whole societies that did not follow Lolth to Underdark". Which of course irks so many people. If that really was the case It would be unnecessary and it would contradict all the lore we previously had (in one of the origin stories drow were created by Correlon when he took his blessing from them in the other they were forced to Underdark by sun elven ritual in Crown wars. In both cases, in neither of cases drow "followed Lolth to Underdark" which is what the Dragon article says).
Also, there is one other matter. As we are talking about Forgotten realms. Let's dismiss the first drow creation theory (Correlon blessing as is described in Mordekainen Tome of Foes). Let's accept that there are new communities of "drow" that weren't hit by Crown wars and the ritual that "made" dark elves into the drow as we know them today. The logical conclusion then is that these new elves aren't drow and that they are original dark elves with dark skin and brown hair. No alabaster skin, no violet eyes. I would accept that. But they would not be the drow, they would still be the original Ssri-tel-quessir - dark elves.
Change is inevitable, we all know that. The setting has changed many times and as we all can see from 4e, not every change is for good. As I wrote above I feel that it is important to change things like evolution, not revolution (those are almost universally bad), and that why I feel that whole new drow societies are a bad thing.
Prior to this what you see as a radical event, how many Drow are thought to be on Faerun? Billions? Millions? Hundreds of thousands? Tens of thousands? Thousands? What number constitutes a society? I can understand how some players may feel threatened that "their Drow" are being displaced, but in no way do I find this new lore and challenge to the Lloth myth in any way diminishing the footprint, impact, and hand the Menzo Drow have on making the Forgotten Realms what they are. Having one book describing one of the societies as an enclave is telling. Maybe Menzo itself can be thought of as an enclave, but it's always struck me as something greater, at least a megapolis (now thinking of what would populate Drow suburban sprawl, but that's a self-amusing digression). A society of Drow who followed Lloth underground and have been a threat to the peace and wellbeing of surface dwellers (through enslaving surface dwellers as well as having a Abyssal consumption overarching ideology) is not diminished if there's been a "hidden story" of other elves who separated from Corellon, didn't follow Lloth and sort of waved off any role in the rest of the development of Faerun, regardless of demographies.
I think a lot of players are drawn to Drow because they like the notion of elves who play in the dark, so to speak. I think there is a place for "elves who play in the dark" who are not consumed by Lloth but tied to the same story of separation from Corellon. In some ways I sort of think of the relationship between the Sith and Night Sisters in Star Wars. They're both "Dark Side" but practiced very differently. What might be interesting, but given Salvatore's capacity as a writer, I'm doubtful, is we might have something with the Drow akin to something suggested in the Feywild Hobgoblin. There's a canon Hobgoblin that casts them as spartan Klingon types. The Feywild plays them up more communitarian, something almost out of labyrinth and fairy tales of that sort. They have a similar racial feature but while it's "saving face" for established hobgoblins, for fey hobgoblins its drawing on community bonds ... mechanically a hobgoblin gets an opportunity to reroll with a bonus based on the number of allies/friends who witnessed what would have been a failure. The UA kobold seems to be a similar effort but they're right up doesn't do much to tease the difference or even acknowledge the prior kobold existence. Back to Hobgoblins, I've already played around with the implied lore in the UA and have the Faerun Hobgoblins and the Fey Hobgoblins both claim the other is some offshoot that left their original plane, the debates always breaking down to both sides finger pointing and shouting "No, YOU'RE the lost ones." In the end, the "truth" doesn't matter in fantasy fiction. It's the dynamics the lore offers that's actually played with in game. It's how it's handled that matters.
I would be curious to see D&D do something like this with Drow, as it's laid out, it's something that is easily ignored I imagine by most games, (again, not seeing Carnival cruise ships of Nu-Drow showing up in Luskan to displace the Drow who've got their hands busy there). Both these Drow societies sound to me sort of like Shangri'la myths a la lost Horizon. Drizzt finds them, and finds I'm betting physical and psychic solace in them. Though his pain, because Drizzt, is that while they are what he wishes the Drow he knew would be, they will do nothing to help him change his world of origin. So the emo of Drizzt continues, which is probably one of the major bullets on the white board that workshopped this idea in the first place.
Well, my understanding was (and I might be wrong) that events that made dark elves into drow in Forgotten realms setting were universal (appliable for the whole Drow population of the entire Faerun). The evidence for that is the existence of Ancient Ones in Maztica (which is pretty far away from where the ritual happened so maybe it happened on whole Toril). But it is entirely possible that there may have been dark elves (Ssri-tel-quessir) that weren't affected.
Now the problem with what constitutes being Drow for me is the effect of the ritual and Lolth influence. If you were affected you would be Drow and you would be bound to descent to Underdark. This is important. Drow did not choose to descent. "Menzo" Drow as you call them did not choose to follow Lolth.They were forced to do so by the ritual along with every single other (then) dark elf. The ritual caused physical changes (sun sensitivity, skin black from brown, hair white from black, calling of Faerzress). And these changes were designed as a punishment and a binding (sort of) that forced Drow to stay below ground. Also, without these physical changes, you simply are not a Drow but you are still a dark elf of old. And you probably did not descend to Underdark.
Now it is entirely possible for small enclaves to somehow exist somewhere in secrecy but you would have to explain how they overcome all those physical hurdles and how they stayed hidden from Lolth. I simply do not see this happening for dozens of thousands Drow. Especially not in a way that put such numerous enclaves anywhere near Sword Coast or the regular locales (Amn, Icewind Dale, or Cormyr).
That being said I see basically three options that make sense:
1. There are drow societies that somehow overcame their physical limits and ritual effects. They are relatively close but they are small and well hidden.
2. There are drow societies that somehow overcame their physical limits and ritual effects. They are numerous. They fought Lolth's influence and somehow won but they are so distant (Zakhara, Unknown lands) that nobody heard from them.
3. There are many dark elves (Ssri-tel-quessir). They avoided being affected by the ritual that created the Drow and they never changed into drow. They may be close and well hidden or they may be distant so that nobody knows about them.
Or a combination of all three options.
Still, I believe that in Faerun "Menzo" drow are a majority, not "splinter group" or "pocket of elves that became isolationist". Lolth rules supreme over dozens of Drow city-states (which is true Monzoberranzan is but one city-state of many). Elistraee is on the rise and Drizzt is still a hero that overcame impossible odds. And those weird good drow are somewhere far away.
Well, my understanding was (and I might be wrong) that events that made dark elves into drow in Forgotten realms setting were universal (appliable for the whole Drow population of the entire Faerun). The evidence for that is the existence of Ancient Ones in Maztica (which is pretty far away from where the ritual happened so maybe it happened on whole Toril). But it is entirely possible that there may have been dark elves (Ssri-tel-quessir) that weren't affected.
Now the problem with what constitutes being Drow for me is the effect of the ritual and Lolth influence. If you were affected you would be Drow and you would be bound to descent to Underdark. This is important. Drow did not choose to descent. "Menzo" Drow as you call them did not choose to follow Lolth.They were forced to do so by the ritual along with every single other (then) dark elf. The ritual caused physical changes (sun sensitivity, skin black from brown, hair white from black, calling of Faerzress). And these changes were designed as a punishment and a binding (sort of) that forced Drow to stay below ground.
And this is an instance of insisting on stable lore when it isn't. In 5e Maztica has exactly 6 references in three books, none of which mention the Drow. 5e's most extensive discussion of Drow history is in Mord's and maybe your presumably prior edition lore derived account fits into it, but there's also some disconnect. Your story almost describes the creation of the Drow as a theft. Mord's describes it more as a schism with Correlion and Lloth at almost equal fault. In Mord's its indicated that the elves who followed Lloth into the underdark were rejecting Correlion. As good myth, there's lot of ambiguity in the rest. I also appreciate Mord's in that for what I short hand call the Menzo Drow in that it talks about Llothian Drow in terms of what they're taught. Ironically the Llothian Drow's version of history syncs with the Corellion version and outsider perspectives without a stake in the metaphysical prehistory take it as gospel. But gospels are just one point of view's testament. It's also not uncommon for civilizations to not include people on the margins in their narratives. Those basics, as well as the text block in Mords on "holes in Lloth's web" lend plausibility to this effort to expand the story.
Also, without these physical changes, you simply are not a Drow but you are still a dark elf of old. And you probably did not descend to Underdark.
Now it is entirely possible for small enclaves to somehow exist somewhere in secrecy but you would have to explain how they overcome all those physical hurdles and how they stayed hidden from Lolth. I simply do not see this happening for dozens of thousands Drow. Especially not in a way that put such numerous enclaves anywhere near Sword Coast or the regular locales (Amn, Icewind Dale, or Cormyr).
So yes, present cannon makes note of "holes in Lloth's web" usually in relationship to communities that choose to follow a different member of the Dark Seldarine, but not exclusively. Neither of us know how big these new enclaves are, but again the word enclave usually speaks to marginal in contrast to a majority. It's also pretty clear that both new enclaves comply with your geography prescription. Callidae will be "far to the North" so likely well beyond the glacier past Icewind Dale and Saekoloth is "hidden in teeming southern jungles" so maybe deep in Chult if not further (maybe Maztica, but I don't think that's the right orientation of the map, maybe the continent moved, I mean it's the Forgotten Realms).
That being said I see basically three options that make sense:
1. There are drow societies that somehow overcame their physical limits and ritual effects. They are relatively close but they are small and well hidden.
2. There are drow societies that somehow overcame their physical limits and ritual effects. They are numerous. They fought Lolth's influence and somehow won but they are so distant (Zakhara, Unknown lands) that nobody heard from them.
3. There are many dark elves (Ssri-tel-quessir). They avoided being affected by the ritual that created the Drow and they never changed into drow. They may be close and well hidden or they may be distant so that nobody knows about them.
Or a combination of all three options.
I'm thinking it's probably relatively small and far away enough that the combination of distance and disinterest in having a impact on Faerun or wherever they may be leaves no one to know about them. What you will be disappointed by is that it's already been announced that the three types of Drow all have Drow tied names. The "classic Drow" what I've been playfully calling Menzo Drow are "technically" Udadrow. The ones in the icy north are called Aevandrow, who's city based on promotional art looks like Disney Land's evocation of New Orleans in an ice cave. The southern forrest ones are Lorendrow, and they're promotional art looks like a robust Ewok village that's going through a "black light is cool" stage.
Still, I believe that in Faerun "Menzo" drow are a majority, not "splinter group" or "pocket of elves that became isolationist". Lolth rules supreme over dozens of Drow city-states (which is true Monzoberranzan is but one city-state of many). Elistraee is on the rise and Drizzt is still a hero that overcame impossible odds. And those weird good drow are somewhere far away.
I think you'll be right, and as I've been saying I see no reason these two new Drow heritage altering enclaves actually damages the place and function of Drow in Faerun. I mean it might lead to some greater instability in the society and advance Elistraee's interests, possibly. Or maybe it'll just bring back the return of sharp widows peaks and power staches. Still, I do like the notion of the Nu Drow showing up on a pair of cruise ships ... no wait, SPELLJAMMER ships (no one's heard of them because they've been tooling around the cosmos like Captain Harlocking with power staches set to maximum) as well as musing the notion of Menzoberranzan suburbs where not growing the right lichen for your lawn will get you in trouble with HOA.
Seriously, I get it, you're invested in what you see as established Drow canon, and it's a blow to the imagination to see it possibly not supported or outright challenged. I don't think there's a lot of fidelity there. Wizard's treats D&D's past as something to mine, and not always with the greatest fidelity (see varied rants of Tasha's identities that irk Greyhawk fans). It does sound though that you can still have the Drow your way in your game and largely treat these enclaves as literal non entities.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I'm thinking it's probably relatively small and far away enough that the combination of distance and disinterest in having a impact on Faerun or wherever they may be leaves no one to know about them. What you will be disappointed by is that it's already been announced that the three types of Drow all have Drow tied names. The "classic Drow" what I've been playfully calling Menzo Drow are "technically" Udadrow. The ones in the icy north are called Aevandrow, who's city based on promotional art looks like Disney Land's evocation of New Orleans in an ice cave. The southern forrest ones are Lorendrow, and they're promotional art looks like a robust Ewok village that's going through a "black light is cool" stage.
This got me thinking about something. I expect we'll get the answer in the now book but, for speculation's sake, how would the change in name occur? I mean, for Aevandrow and Lorendrow I could understand they call themselves that, but for Udadrow ? Is that simply how the others refer to them, how Drizzt calls them, how did they retcon it so the "Menzo Drow" always called themselves that as well as Drow?
Not arguing for one over the other, just putting the thought there.
I think I’m gonna rule that the Faerunian drow exist unchanged as they always have and that Menzo is their largest (but not their only) city, but there are also two new drow enclaves, one in the far north and one in the far south, who split from the Faerunian drow a long time ago, probably before the end of the Crown Wars when the Faerunian drow either retreated or were forced underground. Then if one of my players wants to play an Aevandrow or a Lorendrow, then I’ll dig deeper into all the history stuff.
I'm thinking it's probably relatively small and far away enough that the combination of distance and disinterest in having a impact on Faerun or wherever they may be leaves no one to know about them. What you will be disappointed by is that it's already been announced that the three types of Drow all have Drow tied names. The "classic Drow" what I've been playfully calling Menzo Drow are "technically" Udadrow. The ones in the icy north are called Aevandrow, who's city based on promotional art looks like Disney Land's evocation of New Orleans in an ice cave. The southern forrest ones are Lorendrow, and they're promotional art looks like a robust Ewok village that's going through a "black light is cool" stage.
This got me thinking about something. I expect we'll get the answer in the now book but, for speculation's sake, how would the change in name occur? I mean, for Aevandrow and Lorendrow I could understand they call themselves that, but for Udadrow ? Is that simply how the others refer to them, how Drizzt calls them, how did they retcon it so the "Menzo Drow" always called themselves that as well as Drow?
Not arguing for one over the other, just putting the thought there.
That’s just what the other two enclaves call them. They just call themselves “drow.”
I see it as like one tree trunk that splits off into three separate but coequal branches. Like the U.S. government, except the three branches don’t have anything to do with each other.
I think PenelopetheWeaver is probably right about the name game. I'm guessing the "traditional" Drow known to the Realms, are either entirely or largely (save for some Priests and Wizards authority types) ignorant of these other civilizations, and it is the two enclaves that make the distinction between themselves and udadrow. The separation is part of their story, to date not the story of the "traditional" drow. It's unclear whether these two enclaves will become known to traditional Drow at large or remain secrets. My guess is traditional Drow will likely see these enclaves as heretics, maybe something to war against, since it's a threat to story traditional Drow have used to keep their power structures in place. A Drow diaspora heresy would also be policed within traditional Drow communities, much the way I imagine Ellistraee's presence in traditional Drow communities are handled.
I think rather than looking at it as three branches of government, I think looking at pre-history population migrations as a better analog of how "the same people" could go separate ways and remain unconscious of each other. DNA genomic research currently postulates the indigenous people of the Americas arrived in the western hemisphere 17-14,000 years ago over a land bridge from Siberia to Alaska that no longer exists. I think for the "Drow diaspora" (by that I don't mean the current spread of what I've been calling Menzo Drow in the Underdark, I impinge there's some interconnection among those communities. I mean by Drow diaspora that Drow have been spread at least three ways, sure maybe the bulk concentrating in Lloth/Dark Seldarine regimes). You have a magical divine event, a break among Elf gods, and that schism creates the Elf/Drow split. But my guess that the Drow as we know them descent into the Underdark is sort of one of those "Rome wasn't built in a Day" things. Yes, it's possible, I'd even say likely, the bulk of Drow took part in a massive migration into the Underdark, but during that at least two groups were like "You know, we're still feeling leaving the light of the Seldarine was the right call, not that we could go back if we wanted, but this whole following Lloth into Darkness ins't the way for us. Oh, we still find solace in darkness, but rather than Lloth, one group of us will find our way in the dark with the help of the stars. Another group will find bounds with the darkness provided by the Forrests." This doesn't fit into the traditional Drow stories, or rather this is outside the traditional Drow stories they tell of themselves. So in that world, if word gets around, there will be upset.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The change is, quite frankly, dumb and counter to ACTUAL lore. They were creations of E. Gary Gygax and there have ALWAYS been Dark Elves who were not degenerate or Evil because it wasn't inherent to them (unlike Orks, Goblins, etc who were created by malevolent gods) but they were a culturally degenerate race. They're basically Elvish versions of Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans of the City of Imrryr. That's established in D3: Vault of the Drow if you go into the streets of Erelhei-Cinlu. For the umpteen billionth time:
D3 Vault of the Drow Rakes: roaming the streets in Erelhei-Cinlu are bands of bitter youths, often outcasts. The band will be composed of either Drow, Drow-elves, and half-Drow (human cross) or Drow, half-Drow, and (1-2) half-orcs. The former sort of group is 40% likely, the latter 60%. Drow crosses will have magic resistance equal to their Dark Elven heritage but no spell ability. The bands with elven-Drow members will be hostile to all they perceive as part of the system which prevails in their world, and the Dark Elves with them are of the few who are neither totally degenerate nor wholly evil—they are haters of the society around them and see no good in it. All rakes will be fighters of 4th-7th level of ability (or in the case of groups with half-orcs, fighter/thieves of 3rd-5th/4th-7th or fighter/assassins of 4th-6th/4th-6th level are 50% likely for half-Drow and half-orc rakes). The first sort of group will wear chain shirts under their garments (+1 or +2) and have +1 weapons. The latter groups will not wear armor, and they will be likely to have a few +3 weapons. Rakes encountered inside will be seated so as to appear to be several smaller groups. Those outside will be in 2 or 3 groups so as to surround and surprise their victims. All will scatter when a patrol or nobles appear, for they are greatly disliked by the Drow military and upper class. (See Thieves below.)
If the party manages a friendly meeting with a group of Drow/Drow-elves/half-Drow rakes the youths will tell them about the worship of the Demoness Lolth and the way to her "Egg." The rakes will accompany the party to the area in question if a plan which seems reasonable to them is put forth. They will also leave the Vault-Egg areas in the course of adventuring.
Quite frankly, I think WotC should stop its continued vandalization of Greyhawk and leave its lore ALONE. The Dark Elves of Forgotten Realms shouldn't be called Drow, shouldn't be associated with the Drow and should stop the asinine claims that there were never non-Evil Drow or that they were cursed with dark skin. Their skin pigmentation comes from the "strange radiations of the underworld" and not some magical curse. And before anyone claims otherwise, no, their skin tone was absolutely NOT a curse because otherwise non-Evil Drow living in Erelhei-Cinlu wouldn't have inky black skin. Neither would Elf-Drow half-castes nor Half-Elf Drow. When Lolth was driven out of the world, the Elves didn't even exist. It was the shedding of the blood from this event from which the race of Elves sprang (to steal an idea from Norse mythology after a fashion).
The reason it's bad is that retroactive continuity is universally despised by anyone who enjoys consuming any sort of story-based content.
That is simply not correct. BAD retcons are despised. Good, or even just clever, retcons get praised, dating back to at least Crisis on Infinite Earths.
If retcons were "universally despised", they wouldn't have been deployed so often across multiple media we needed a short-hand term to describe them.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Seriously, I get it, you're invested in what you see as established Drow canon, and it's a blow to the imagination to see it possibly not supported or outright challenged. I don't think there's a lot of fidelity there. Wizard's treats D&D's past as something to mine, and not always with the greatest fidelity (see varied rants of Tasha's identities that irk Greyhawk fans). It does sound though that you can still have the Drow your way in your game and largely treat these enclaves as literal non entities.
Absolutely 1000% true. While newer fans may not care, a lot of us who were here first don't like things being mucked around with just "because". And as I said previously, the fact is that from the very beginning there have been Drow who are not degenerate and/or Evil.
The change is, quite frankly, dumb and counter to ACTUAL lore. They were creations of E. Gary Gygax and there have ALWAYS been Dark Elves who were not degenerate or Evil because it wasn't inherent to them (unlike Orks, Goblins, etc who were created by malevolent gods) but they were a culturally degenerate race. They're basically Elvish versions of Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans of the City of Imrryr. That's established in D3: Vault of the Drow if you go into the streets of Erelhei-Cinlu. For the umpteen billionth time:
D3 Vault of the Drow Rakes: roaming the streets in Erelhei-Cinlu are bands of bitter youths, often outcasts. The band will be composed of either Drow, Drow-elves, and half-Drow (human cross) or Drow, half-Drow, and (1-2) half-orcs. The former sort of group is 40% likely, the latter 60%. Drow crosses will have magic resistance equal to their Dark Elven heritage but no spell ability. The bands with elven-Drow members will be hostile to all they perceive as part of the system which prevails in their world, and the Dark Elves with them are of the few who are neither totally degenerate nor wholly evil—they are haters of the society around them and see no good in it. All rakes will be fighters of 4th-7th level of ability (or in the case of groups with half-orcs, fighter/thieves of 3rd-5th/4th-7th or fighter/assassins of 4th-6th/4th-6th level are 50% likely for half-Drow and half-orc rakes). The first sort of group will wear chain shirts under their garments (+1 or +2) and have +1 weapons. The latter groups will not wear armor, and they will be likely to have a few +3 weapons. Rakes encountered inside will be seated so as to appear to be several smaller groups. Those outside will be in 2 or 3 groups so as to surround and surprise their victims. All will scatter when a patrol or nobles appear, for they are greatly disliked by the Drow military and upper class. (See Thieves below.)
If the party manages a friendly meeting with a group of Drow/Drow-elves/half-Drow rakes the youths will tell them about the worship of the Demoness Lolth and the way to her "Egg." The rakes will accompany the party to the area in question if a plan which seems reasonable to them is put forth. They will also leave the Vault-Egg areas in the course of adventuring.
Quite frankly, I think WotC should stop its continued vandalization of Greyhawk and leave its lore ALONE. The Dark Elves of Forgotten Realms shouldn't be called Drow, shouldn't be associated with the Drow and should stop the asinine claims that there were never non-Evil Drow or that they were cursed with dark skin. Their skin pigmentation comes from the "strange radiations of the underworld" and not some magical curse. And before anyone claims otherwise, no, their skin tone was absolutely NOT a curse because otherwise non-Evil Drow living in Erelhei-Cinlu wouldn't have inky black skin. Neither would Elf-Drow half-castes nor Half-Elf Drow. When Lolth was driven out of the world, the Elves didn't even exist. It was the shedding of the blood from this event from which the race of Elves sprang (to steal an idea from Norse mythology after a fashion).
All these changes are particular to the Forgotten Realms setting. We are talking about Drizzt connected issues here. Nobody is touching your Greyhawk. All the lore was discussed from Forgotten Realms point of view. Also, I see no reason why drow in Forgotten realms shouldn't be called drow since all the settings are different. There is a lot of lore about Forgotten Realms Drow. So unless you deny the existence of others setting these changes should not touch you at all.
The change is, quite frankly, dumb and counter to ACTUAL lore. They were creations of E. Gary Gygax and there have ALWAYS been Dark Elves who were not degenerate or Evil because it wasn't inherent to them (unlike Orks, Goblins, etc who were created by malevolent gods) but they were a culturally degenerate race. They're basically Elvish versions of Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans of the City of Imrryr. That's established in D3: Vault of the Drow if you go into the streets of Erelhei-Cinlu. For the umpteen billionth time:
D3 Vault of the Drow Rakes: roaming the streets in Erelhei-Cinlu are bands of bitter youths, often outcasts. The band will be composed of either Drow, Drow-elves, and half-Drow (human cross) or Drow, half-Drow, and (1-2) half-orcs. The former sort of group is 40% likely, the latter 60%. Drow crosses will have magic resistance equal to their Dark Elven heritage but no spell ability. The bands with elven-Drow members will be hostile to all they perceive as part of the system which prevails in their world, and the Dark Elves with them are of the few who are neither totally degenerate nor wholly evil—they are haters of the society around them and see no good in it. All rakes will be fighters of 4th-7th level of ability (or in the case of groups with half-orcs, fighter/thieves of 3rd-5th/4th-7th or fighter/assassins of 4th-6th/4th-6th level are 50% likely for half-Drow and half-orc rakes). The first sort of group will wear chain shirts under their garments (+1 or +2) and have +1 weapons. The latter groups will not wear armor, and they will be likely to have a few +3 weapons. Rakes encountered inside will be seated so as to appear to be several smaller groups. Those outside will be in 2 or 3 groups so as to surround and surprise their victims. All will scatter when a patrol or nobles appear, for they are greatly disliked by the Drow military and upper class. (See Thieves below.)
If the party manages a friendly meeting with a group of Drow/Drow-elves/half-Drow rakes the youths will tell them about the worship of the Demoness Lolth and the way to her "Egg." The rakes will accompany the party to the area in question if a plan which seems reasonable to them is put forth. They will also leave the Vault-Egg areas in the course of adventuring.
Quite frankly, I think WotC should stop its continued vandalization of Greyhawk and leave its lore ALONE. The Dark Elves of Forgotten Realms shouldn't be called Drow, shouldn't be associated with the Drow and should stop the asinine claims that there were never non-Evil Drow or that they were cursed with dark skin. Their skin pigmentation comes from the "strange radiations of the underworld" and not some magical curse. And before anyone claims otherwise, no, their skin tone was absolutely NOT a curse because otherwise non-Evil Drow living in Erelhei-Cinlu wouldn't have inky black skin. Neither would Elf-Drow half-castes nor Half-Elf Drow. When Lolth was driven out of the world, the Elves didn't even exist. It was the shedding of the blood from this event from which the race of Elves sprang (to steal an idea from Norse mythology after a fashion).
5e does not have Greyhawk translated to it (yet, and it's fairly unlikely to ever get fully translated to 5e). Sure, there's Ghosts of Saltmarsh, but WotC has made it clear that they don't count that as including Greyhawk officially in 5e, as it's just a small region and barely touches any of Greyhawk's main lore at all (they don't let DMsGuild products be created for Greyhawk, for example).
WotC aren't changing Drow in Greyhawk, because quite frankly, they don't really care about Greyhawk much anymore. Sure, they'll take bits and pieces that they like (Mordenkainen, Vecna, Acererak, etc) and move them to the core of the game and/or the Forgotten Realms, but the whole of the setting is currently being left in the past. IMO, they don't care enough about Greyhawk going forward to retcon the drow on Oerth. However, they do care about the Forgotten Realms, as it's still 5e's main setting, and they still care about other settings that have drow/dark elves (Eberron, Exandria, Ravnica, etc). To put it bluntly, Oerth doesn't really matter anymore, because it shares the same overall theme as the Forgotten Realms, and WotC is currently more interested in exploring worlds that fill different niches (Eberron, Ravenloft, Exandria, Theros, Ravnica, Strixhaven, etc).
And all of that is besides the point of this thread, really. Greyhawk doesn't matter for this discussion. It doesn't matter if drow originated from Greyhawk, because a ton of D&D stuff originated from there and other settings and have been moved to different settings and the core game. It's completely nonsensical to say "changing FR drow is disrespectful to Greyhawk", and is just as nonsensical as saying "the Izzet Guild having mad-scientist Artificers is disrespectful to Eberron" or "Exandria/Eberron containing non-always evil Orc and Goblinoid Cultures is disrespectful to the Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk", or that "Pizza having mozzarella cheese is disrespectful to Pasta!". It's not. They're just different tastes and being used in different ways.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I think a more succinct, and hopefully less dismissive, way of expressing the above is saying 5e hasn't officially supported Greyhawk. If you believe the summer of Drizzt is a particular front to Greyhawk Drow, your grievance starts no later than 1988 under TSR's watch when readers first saw Drizzt chilling in Icewind Dale (I presume Drow in the FR were mentioned prior to Drizzt maybe even by Greenwood before the boxed set, but I'm not sure if that's the case nor do I know that they were necessarily 100% aligned with the old school Drow of Greyhawk and the attendant meatgrinder modules, I don't remember much more about that module series other than it being tough). So the reign of the powerstached, sharp widows peak wielding mashups of photo Tolkien's elf photonegatives and KISS armor lasted about 11 years before they began to be challenged by other conceptions of what Drow could be in D&D.
However, while 5e hasn't officially supported Greyhawk, that means no one's touching Greyhawk and the Drow there can be stayed to remain in the vein you play.
I mean, in my aforementioned spell jammer fantasies of the RetroDrow showing up in Luskan on Spelljammer party ships, over their travels they really really got into White Claw. Like the average Drow consumes a sixer over the course of any given day, a case if its party time and it's almost ALWAYS party time when Spelljamming. White Claw of course opens the door to the White Lodge, but that's because I'm binging on Twin Peaks before that series leaves Netflix. I'm not sure how that new spiked seltzer induced transcendental illumination aligns the Drow with the owls, but I hope we can respect each others' head canons.
"So, you're the new drow, eh? What do you call yourselves?"
"Udadrow."
"No, I'm not drow, you're drow. I'm asking you what name you have for your people."
"Udadrow."
"Look pal, I am very clearly a halfling. I just want to know if you refer to yourselves as someone other than just 'drow'."
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that from what's been said, those "Drow" shouldn't be Drow at all but Dark Elves at best.
Aren’t drow and dark elves the same thing?
Yes and no. Drow are also called Dark Elves, like Sun Elves are also called Gold Elves, etc. But Drow were also called Dark Elves (or Ssri-tel-quessir if you be fancy) before they become Drow. So while it's not wrong to called Drow - Dark Elves, it often refers to when Dark Elves were no yet Drow
So yeah, it's often confusing ^^
In my opinion, cultural evilness is part of what makes drow drow. Getting rid of that turns them into edgy elves with black skin and white hair, which is an entirely different thing.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Prior to this ... what you see as a radical event, how many Drow are thought to be on Faerun? Billions? Millions? Hundreds of thousands? Tens of thousands? Thousands? What number constitutes a society? I can understand how some players may feel threatened that "their Drow" are being displaced, but in no way do I find this new lore and challenge to the Lloth myth in any way diminishing the footprint, impact, and hand the Menzo Drow have on making the Forgotten Realms what they are. Having one book describing one of the societies as an enclave is telling. Maybe Menzo itself can be thought of as an enclave, but it's always struck me as something greater, at least a megapolis (now thinking of what would populate Drow suburban sprawl, but that's a self-amusing digression). A society of Drow who followed Lloth underground and have been a threat to the peace and wellbeing of surface dwellers (through enslaving surface dwellers as well as having a Abyssal consumption overarching ideology) is not diminished if there's been a "hidden story" of other elves who separated from Corellon, didn't follow Lloth and sort of waved off any role in the rest of the development of Faerun, regardless of demographies.
I think a lot of players are drawn to Drow because they like the notion of elves who play in the dark, so to speak. I think there is a place for "elves who play in the dark" who are not consumed by Lloth but tied to the same story of separation from Corellon. In some ways I sort of think of the relationship between the Sith and Night Sisters in Star Wars. They're both "Dark Side" but practiced very differently. What might be interesting, but given Salvatore's capacity as a writer, I'm doubtful, is we might have something with the Drow akin to something suggested in the Feywild Hobgoblin. There's a canon Hobgoblin that casts them as spartan Klingon types. The Feywild plays them up more communitarian, something almost out of labyrinth and fairy tales of that sort. They have a similar racial feature but while it's "saving face" for established hobgoblins, for fey hobgoblins its drawing on community bonds ... mechanically a hobgoblin gets an opportunity to reroll with a bonus based on the number of allies/friends who witnessed what would have been a failure. The UA kobold seems to be a similar effort but they're right up doesn't do much to tease the difference or even acknowledge the prior kobold existence. Back to Hobgoblins, I've already played around with the implied lore in the UA and have the Faerun Hobgoblins and the Fey Hobgoblins both claim the other is some offshoot that left their original plane, the debates always breaking down to both sides finger pointing and shouting "No, YOU'RE the lost ones." In the end, the "truth" doesn't matter in fantasy fiction. It's the dynamics the lore offers that's actually played with in game. It's how it's handled that matters.
I would be curious to see D&D do something like this with Drow, as it's laid out, it's something that is easily ignored I imagine by most games, (again, not seeing Carnival cruise ships of Nu-Drow showing up in Luskan to displace the Drow who've got their hands busy there). Both these Drow societies sound to me sort of like Shangri'la myths a la lost Horizon. Drizzt finds them, and finds I'm betting physical and psychic solace in them. Though his pain, because Drizzt, is that while they are what he wishes the Drow he knew would be, they will do nothing to help him change his world of origin. So the emo of Drizzt continues, which is probably one of the major bullets on the white board that workshopped this idea in the first place.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Well, my understanding was (and I might be wrong) that events that made dark elves into drow in Forgotten realms setting were universal (appliable for the whole Drow population of the entire Faerun). The evidence for that is the existence of Ancient Ones in Maztica (which is pretty far away from where the ritual happened so maybe it happened on whole Toril). But it is entirely possible that there may have been dark elves (Ssri-tel-quessir) that weren't affected.
Now the problem with what constitutes being Drow for me is the effect of the ritual and Lolth influence. If you were affected you would be Drow and you would be bound to descent to Underdark. This is important. Drow did not choose to descent. "Menzo" Drow as you call them did not choose to follow Lolth.They were forced to do so by the ritual along with every single other (then) dark elf. The ritual caused physical changes (sun sensitivity, skin black from brown, hair white from black, calling of Faerzress). And these changes were designed as a punishment and a binding (sort of) that forced Drow to stay below ground. Also, without these physical changes, you simply are not a Drow but you are still a dark elf of old. And you probably did not descend to Underdark.
Now it is entirely possible for small enclaves to somehow exist somewhere in secrecy but you would have to explain how they overcome all those physical hurdles and how they stayed hidden from Lolth. I simply do not see this happening for dozens of thousands Drow. Especially not in a way that put such numerous enclaves anywhere near Sword Coast or the regular locales (Amn, Icewind Dale, or Cormyr).
That being said I see basically three options that make sense:
1. There are drow societies that somehow overcame their physical limits and ritual effects. They are relatively close but they are small and well hidden.
2. There are drow societies that somehow overcame their physical limits and ritual effects. They are numerous. They fought Lolth's influence and somehow won but they are so distant (Zakhara, Unknown lands) that nobody heard from them.
3. There are many dark elves (Ssri-tel-quessir). They avoided being affected by the ritual that created the Drow and they never changed into drow. They may be close and well hidden or they may be distant so that nobody knows about them.
Or a combination of all three options.
Still, I believe that in Faerun "Menzo" drow are a majority, not "splinter group" or "pocket of elves that became isolationist". Lolth rules supreme over dozens of Drow city-states (which is true Monzoberranzan is but one city-state of many). Elistraee is on the rise and Drizzt is still a hero that overcame impossible odds. And those weird good drow are somewhere far away.
And this is an instance of insisting on stable lore when it isn't. In 5e Maztica has exactly 6 references in three books, none of which mention the Drow. 5e's most extensive discussion of Drow history is in Mord's and maybe your presumably prior edition lore derived account fits into it, but there's also some disconnect. Your story almost describes the creation of the Drow as a theft. Mord's describes it more as a schism with Correlion and Lloth at almost equal fault. In Mord's its indicated that the elves who followed Lloth into the underdark were rejecting Correlion. As good myth, there's lot of ambiguity in the rest. I also appreciate Mord's in that for what I short hand call the Menzo Drow in that it talks about Llothian Drow in terms of what they're taught. Ironically the Llothian Drow's version of history syncs with the Corellion version and outsider perspectives without a stake in the metaphysical prehistory take it as gospel. But gospels are just one point of view's testament. It's also not uncommon for civilizations to not include people on the margins in their narratives. Those basics, as well as the text block in Mords on "holes in Lloth's web" lend plausibility to this effort to expand the story.
So yes, present cannon makes note of "holes in Lloth's web" usually in relationship to communities that choose to follow a different member of the Dark Seldarine, but not exclusively. Neither of us know how big these new enclaves are, but again the word enclave usually speaks to marginal in contrast to a majority. It's also pretty clear that both new enclaves comply with your geography prescription. Callidae will be "far to the North" so likely well beyond the glacier past Icewind Dale and Saekoloth is "hidden in teeming southern jungles" so maybe deep in Chult if not further (maybe Maztica, but I don't think that's the right orientation of the map, maybe the continent moved, I mean it's the Forgotten Realms).
I'm thinking it's probably relatively small and far away enough that the combination of distance and disinterest in having a impact on Faerun or wherever they may be leaves no one to know about them. What you will be disappointed by is that it's already been announced that the three types of Drow all have Drow tied names. The "classic Drow" what I've been playfully calling Menzo Drow are "technically" Udadrow. The ones in the icy north are called Aevandrow, who's city based on promotional art looks like Disney Land's evocation of New Orleans in an ice cave. The southern forrest ones are Lorendrow, and they're promotional art looks like a robust Ewok village that's going through a "black light is cool" stage.
I think you'll be right, and as I've been saying I see no reason these two new Drow heritage altering enclaves actually damages the place and function of Drow in Faerun. I mean it might lead to some greater instability in the society and advance Elistraee's interests, possibly. Or maybe it'll just bring back the return of sharp widows peaks and power staches. Still, I do like the notion of the Nu Drow showing up on a pair of cruise ships ... no wait, SPELLJAMMER ships (no one's heard of them because they've been tooling around the cosmos like Captain Harlocking with power staches set to maximum) as well as musing the notion of Menzoberranzan suburbs where not growing the right lichen for your lawn will get you in trouble with HOA.
Seriously, I get it, you're invested in what you see as established Drow canon, and it's a blow to the imagination to see it possibly not supported or outright challenged. I don't think there's a lot of fidelity there. Wizard's treats D&D's past as something to mine, and not always with the greatest fidelity (see varied rants of Tasha's identities that irk Greyhawk fans). It does sound though that you can still have the Drow your way in your game and largely treat these enclaves as literal non entities.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This got me thinking about something. I expect we'll get the answer in the now book but, for speculation's sake, how would the change in name occur? I mean, for Aevandrow and Lorendrow I could understand they call themselves that, but for Udadrow ? Is that simply how the others refer to them, how Drizzt calls them, how did they retcon it so the "Menzo Drow" always called themselves that as well as Drow?
Not arguing for one over the other, just putting the thought there.
Wow! This is complicated.
I think I’m gonna rule that the Faerunian drow exist unchanged as they always have and that Menzo is their largest (but not their only) city, but there are also two new drow enclaves, one in the far north and one in the far south, who split from the Faerunian drow a long time ago, probably before the end of the Crown Wars when the Faerunian drow either retreated or were forced underground. Then if one of my players wants to play an Aevandrow or a Lorendrow, then I’ll dig deeper into all the history stuff.
What do you guys think of this idea?
That’s just what the other two enclaves call them. They just call themselves “drow.”
I see it as like one tree trunk that splits off into three separate but coequal branches. Like the U.S. government, except the three branches don’t have anything to do with each other.
I think PenelopetheWeaver is probably right about the name game. I'm guessing the "traditional" Drow known to the Realms, are either entirely or largely (save for some Priests and Wizards authority types) ignorant of these other civilizations, and it is the two enclaves that make the distinction between themselves and udadrow. The separation is part of their story, to date not the story of the "traditional" drow. It's unclear whether these two enclaves will become known to traditional Drow at large or remain secrets. My guess is traditional Drow will likely see these enclaves as heretics, maybe something to war against, since it's a threat to story traditional Drow have used to keep their power structures in place. A Drow diaspora heresy would also be policed within traditional Drow communities, much the way I imagine Ellistraee's presence in traditional Drow communities are handled.
I think rather than looking at it as three branches of government, I think looking at pre-history population migrations as a better analog of how "the same people" could go separate ways and remain unconscious of each other. DNA genomic research currently postulates the indigenous people of the Americas arrived in the western hemisphere 17-14,000 years ago over a land bridge from Siberia to Alaska that no longer exists. I think for the "Drow diaspora" (by that I don't mean the current spread of what I've been calling Menzo Drow in the Underdark, I impinge there's some interconnection among those communities. I mean by Drow diaspora that Drow have been spread at least three ways, sure maybe the bulk concentrating in Lloth/Dark Seldarine regimes). You have a magical divine event, a break among Elf gods, and that schism creates the Elf/Drow split. But my guess that the Drow as we know them descent into the Underdark is sort of one of those "Rome wasn't built in a Day" things. Yes, it's possible, I'd even say likely, the bulk of Drow took part in a massive migration into the Underdark, but during that at least two groups were like "You know, we're still feeling leaving the light of the Seldarine was the right call, not that we could go back if we wanted, but this whole following Lloth into Darkness ins't the way for us. Oh, we still find solace in darkness, but rather than Lloth, one group of us will find our way in the dark with the help of the stars. Another group will find bounds with the darkness provided by the Forrests." This doesn't fit into the traditional Drow stories, or rather this is outside the traditional Drow stories they tell of themselves. So in that world, if word gets around, there will be upset.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The change is, quite frankly, dumb and counter to ACTUAL lore. They were creations of E. Gary Gygax and there have ALWAYS been Dark Elves who were not degenerate or Evil because it wasn't inherent to them (unlike Orks, Goblins, etc who were created by malevolent gods) but they were a culturally degenerate race. They're basically Elvish versions of Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans of the City of Imrryr. That's established in D3: Vault of the Drow if you go into the streets of Erelhei-Cinlu. For the umpteen billionth time:
D3 Vault of the Drow
Rakes: roaming the streets in Erelhei-Cinlu are bands of bitter youths, often outcasts. The band will be composed of either Drow, Drow-elves, and half-Drow (human cross) or Drow, half-Drow, and (1-2) half-orcs. The former sort of group is 40% likely, the latter 60%. Drow crosses will have magic resistance equal to their Dark Elven heritage but no spell ability. The bands with elven-Drow members will be hostile to all they perceive as part of the system which prevails in their world, and the Dark Elves with them are of the few who are neither totally degenerate nor wholly evil—they are haters of the society around them and see no good in it. All rakes will be fighters of 4th-7th level of ability (or in the case of groups with half-orcs, fighter/thieves of 3rd-5th/4th-7th or fighter/assassins of 4th-6th/4th-6th level are 50% likely for half-Drow and half-orc rakes). The first sort of group will wear chain shirts under their garments (+1 or +2) and have +1 weapons. The latter groups will not wear armor, and they will be likely to have a few +3 weapons. Rakes encountered inside will be seated so as to appear to be several smaller groups. Those outside will be in 2 or 3 groups so as to surround and surprise their victims. All will scatter when a patrol or nobles appear, for they are greatly disliked by the Drow military and upper class. (See Thieves below.)
If the party manages a friendly meeting with a group of Drow/Drow-elves/half-Drow rakes the youths will tell them about the worship of the Demoness Lolth and the way to her "Egg." The rakes will accompany the party to the area in question if a plan which seems reasonable to them is put forth. They will also leave the Vault-Egg areas in the course of adventuring.
Quite frankly, I think WotC should stop its continued vandalization of Greyhawk and leave its lore ALONE. The Dark Elves of Forgotten Realms shouldn't be called Drow, shouldn't be associated with the Drow and should stop the asinine claims that there were never non-Evil Drow or that they were cursed with dark skin. Their skin pigmentation comes from the "strange radiations of the underworld" and not some magical curse. And before anyone claims otherwise, no, their skin tone was absolutely NOT a curse because otherwise non-Evil Drow living in Erelhei-Cinlu wouldn't have inky black skin. Neither would Elf-Drow half-castes nor Half-Elf Drow. When Lolth was driven out of the world, the Elves didn't even exist. It was the shedding of the blood from this event from which the race of Elves sprang (to steal an idea from Norse mythology after a fashion).
That is simply not correct. BAD retcons are despised. Good, or even just clever, retcons get praised, dating back to at least Crisis on Infinite Earths.
If retcons were "universally despised", they wouldn't have been deployed so often across multiple media we needed a short-hand term to describe them.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Absolutely 1000% true. While newer fans may not care, a lot of us who were here first don't like things being mucked around with just "because". And as I said previously, the fact is that from the very beginning there have been Drow who are not degenerate and/or Evil.
All these changes are particular to the Forgotten Realms setting. We are talking about Drizzt connected issues here. Nobody is touching your Greyhawk. All the lore was discussed from Forgotten Realms point of view. Also, I see no reason why drow in Forgotten realms shouldn't be called drow since all the settings are different. There is a lot of lore about Forgotten Realms Drow. So unless you deny the existence of others setting these changes should not touch you at all.
5e does not have Greyhawk translated to it (yet, and it's fairly unlikely to ever get fully translated to 5e). Sure, there's Ghosts of Saltmarsh, but WotC has made it clear that they don't count that as including Greyhawk officially in 5e, as it's just a small region and barely touches any of Greyhawk's main lore at all (they don't let DMsGuild products be created for Greyhawk, for example).
WotC aren't changing Drow in Greyhawk, because quite frankly, they don't really care about Greyhawk much anymore. Sure, they'll take bits and pieces that they like (Mordenkainen, Vecna, Acererak, etc) and move them to the core of the game and/or the Forgotten Realms, but the whole of the setting is currently being left in the past. IMO, they don't care enough about Greyhawk going forward to retcon the drow on Oerth. However, they do care about the Forgotten Realms, as it's still 5e's main setting, and they still care about other settings that have drow/dark elves (Eberron, Exandria, Ravnica, etc). To put it bluntly, Oerth doesn't really matter anymore, because it shares the same overall theme as the Forgotten Realms, and WotC is currently more interested in exploring worlds that fill different niches (Eberron, Ravenloft, Exandria, Theros, Ravnica, Strixhaven, etc).
And all of that is besides the point of this thread, really. Greyhawk doesn't matter for this discussion. It doesn't matter if drow originated from Greyhawk, because a ton of D&D stuff originated from there and other settings and have been moved to different settings and the core game. It's completely nonsensical to say "changing FR drow is disrespectful to Greyhawk", and is just as nonsensical as saying "the Izzet Guild having mad-scientist Artificers is disrespectful to Eberron" or "Exandria/Eberron containing non-always evil Orc and Goblinoid Cultures is disrespectful to the Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk", or that "Pizza having mozzarella cheese is disrespectful to Pasta!". It's not. They're just different tastes and being used in different ways.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think a more succinct, and hopefully less dismissive, way of expressing the above is saying 5e hasn't officially supported Greyhawk. If you believe the summer of Drizzt is a particular front to Greyhawk Drow, your grievance starts no later than 1988 under TSR's watch when readers first saw Drizzt chilling in Icewind Dale (I presume Drow in the FR were mentioned prior to Drizzt maybe even by Greenwood before the boxed set, but I'm not sure if that's the case nor do I know that they were necessarily 100% aligned with the old school Drow of Greyhawk and the attendant meatgrinder modules, I don't remember much more about that module series other than it being tough). So the reign of the powerstached, sharp widows peak wielding mashups of photo Tolkien's elf photonegatives and KISS armor lasted about 11 years before they began to be challenged by other conceptions of what Drow could be in D&D.
However, while 5e hasn't officially supported Greyhawk, that means no one's touching Greyhawk and the Drow there can be stayed to remain in the vein you play.
I mean, in my aforementioned spell jammer fantasies of the RetroDrow showing up in Luskan on Spelljammer party ships, over their travels they really really got into White Claw. Like the average Drow consumes a sixer over the course of any given day, a case if its party time and it's almost ALWAYS party time when Spelljamming. White Claw of course opens the door to the White Lodge, but that's because I'm binging on Twin Peaks before that series leaves Netflix. I'm not sure how that new spiked seltzer induced transcendental illumination aligns the Drow with the owls, but I hope we can respect each others' head canons.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It’s worth noting the name is really silly.
Who the Drow? Udadrow.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
"So, you're the new drow, eh? What do you call yourselves?"
"Udadrow."
"No, I'm not drow, you're drow. I'm asking you what name you have for your people."
"Udadrow."
"Look pal, I am very clearly a halfling. I just want to know if you refer to yourselves as someone other than just 'drow'."
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)