So, i'm making a neutral/good (not sure the exact alignment, but neutral will be in there somewhere) character, who worships the ocean and storms, who l plan on making a tempest cleric. However, if the forgotten realms setting/ pantheon is used, (or the Norse pantheon) and the DM doesn't change the gods alignments, the deity/s l worship will be CE. So, how would that work? Obviously the dm has final say on how religion works in their world, but l want to know if my question has a official answer, or at the very least, peoples opinions on the matter.
Edit: So, I like the ideas rob76 and flushmaster gave. (Umberlee is actually the main deity I was thinking about worshiping, so that's convenient) and their backstory does actually have them spend time on a (merchant) ship, though one thing I forgot to mention is they're a Triton who was born and raised in the water plane (city of glass specifically) and was raised in a somewhat religious household. This is how I was planing on setting the groundwork for her becomeing a Tempest cleric. So, it's good to know that there is a precedent for God's granting powers to those who don't exactly match their alignment.
Gods award clerics power because they exemplify a God's ideal or at least bring more of it in the world (like War, or Love, or Chaos, etc)
They way I see it, as long you respect your God's commandement it could make sense your God awards you power even if you aren't of the same alignment.
Although, as I see it, your alignment stems from how you act rather than the other way around. So if you obey a Chaotic Evil God's commands you're gonna do Chaotic Evil things and thus you'll tend to Chaotic Evil yourself.
No all Gods are the same though and while some are stickler to the rule, some are less regarding for their cleric to obey every rule (although you shouldn't act against your God's interrest).
I'd say for a CE God, if you're Chaotic yourself it could work even if your not Evil (Neutral might work better than Good).
I don't know if it helps but remember that being a Tempest Cleric doesn't mean you have to worship a straight up "God of the Storm", there's some room for interpretation (though less than other cleric order).
ps: there are a lot of Gods in Forgotten Realms lore, if your DM is okay with you should look it up and maybe pick one outside the Faerûnian Pantheon, you might find a God closer to what you'd like (I'd recommand the Forgotten Realms wiki for a list)
This is the problem of having gods and divinely channeled energy being real/measurable and not having alignment to conform. If it were at my table, I would not allow a Cleric to gain powers from a deity which is diametrically opposed to their alignment. Its not much, but I would suggest that maybe your Cleric worships an interloper god from (say) Greyhawk like Procan (Greater; Ocean, Seas, Salt; Oeridian/Common; Neutral Good) or Velnius (Lesser; Sky, Weather; Oeridian; Neutral <Good>) or Xerbo (Lesser; Sea, Water, Travel, Money, Business; Suloise; Neutral)
"I hated drawing power from the Dark Dimension, but as well you know, sometimes, one must break the rules in order to serve the greater good." -The Ancient One, Dr. Strange (2016)
She was decidedly Good in alignment through her actions, but the power she wielded was coming from a place of decidedly Evil alignment from its intents.
D&D is mostly about the exceptional situations that churn up life in the Realms and not the normal, expected things. Good character = Good deity is the normal, expected thing.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Given what you've said about being a cleric of a god of ocenas and storms I immediately thought of the forgotten realms diety Umberlee. She is CE but I think it would certainly be within the realms of possibility for sailors and other seafaring/sea fearing sorts to offer her prayers and what not. Although you would likely be tempted/requested to do some distateful things.
To quote form the 3.5e forgotten realms campaign book:
Umberlee, Dogma:
The sea is a strange place and those that travel it had best be willing to pay the price of challenging Umberlee's domain. Fair offerings bring fair winds to sea travellers, but those that do not pay their respects will find that the sea is as cold as Umberlee's heart. Spread word of the might of Umberlee and let no service be done in her name without a price. Make folks fear the wind and wave unless a cleric of Umberlee is there to protect them. Slay those who ascribe sea and storms to Talos (that means kill anyone who says the god Talos is responsible for sea and storms).
So based on that you may have been/still are a Chaotic Good sailor who got swept out to sea and were rescued by a cleric of the ocean/storm god and the price for your safe return to shore was to spread the word of the god and over time you've become a cleric, you find your faith is constantly tested (interactions with your DM), but you owe the cleric and by extension the god a debt and the price you pay is to faithfully spread the word.
Given what you've said about being a cleric of a god of ocenas and storms I immediately thought of the forgotten realms diety Umberlee. She is CE but I think it would certainly be within the realms of possibility for sailors and other seafaring/sea fearing sorts to offer her prayers and what not. Although you would likely be tempted/requested to do some distateful things.
Although they're a difference between giving offering and prayers to a deity and being the cleric of one.
She was decidedly Good in alignment through her actions, but the power she wielded was coming from a place of decidedly Evil alignment from its intents.
D&D is mostly about the exceptional situations that churn up life in the Realms and not the normal, expected things. Good character = Good deity is the normal, expected thing.
Which, of course, is irrelevant as Good/Evil are not literal definable forces in the Marvel Cinematic Universe like they are in D&D. I mean, each individual DM has to make these determinations for their table, but the fact is that Clerics wield divine power by channeling it through their faith and being diametrically opposed to their deity means they shouldn't be able to channel that energy.
Given what you've said about being a cleric of a god of ocenas and storms I immediately thought of the forgotten realms diety Umberlee. She is CE but I think it would certainly be within the realms of possibility for sailors and other seafaring/sea fearing sorts to offer her prayers and what not. Although you would likely be tempted/requested to do some distateful things.
Although they're a difference between giving offering and prayers to a deity and being the cleric of one.
There is a difference but as I noted at the end of the post, faithfully spreading the word leads to you becoming a cleric over time. So before play starts you've come to realise that the God in question is something to be feared and worshipped and the little "superstitious" things you used to do become actual rituals you use to interact with a god. And although you may still be a non CE alignment the DM, in guise of the god, may try to sway you morally to be more like them and you have a aspect to your roleplay as you try to honour the god that impacted your life and you know has a tangible effect in the world without becoming the heartless/CE worshipper that is the sterotype for that god.
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* Need a character idea? Search for "Rob76's Unused" in the Story and Lore section.
There is a difference but as I noted at the end of the post, faithfully spreading the word leads to you becoming a cleric over time. So before play starts you've come to realise that the God in question is something to be feared and worshipped and the little "superstitious" things you used to do become actual rituals you use to interact with a god. And although you may still be a non CE alignment the DM, in guise of the god, may try to sway you morally to be more like them and you have a aspect to your roleplay as you try to honour the god that impacted your life and you know has a tangible effect in the world without becoming the heartless/CE worshipper that is the sterotype for that god.
I could see that in some specific circumstances. Maybe for a demi good or barely above which would explain why that God has good reason to want you to become more like they are. Might be interesting for a PC arc, though I keep thinking the PC should at least be either Chaotic or Evil from the start (Neutral at worst).
There is a difference but as I noted at the end of the post, faithfully spreading the word leads to you becoming a cleric over time.
I'd say it doesn't have to be. You can be a priest for a god without becoming a cleric (in the sense that you do preach the faith but don't receive any power from your God)
Back in third edition/3.5 the rule for clerics was that they could be one alignment step away from their deity (unless the deity in question had special restrictions like iirc St Cuthbert being LN but not accepting evil clerics). By that rationale a CE deity like Umberlee would accept and grant power/spells to neutral evil and chaotic neutral clerics as well as chaotic evil ones.
The way I see it, Umberlee is basically an extortionist who's dogma boils down to "give me stuff or feel my wrath." The "stuff" in this case being worship/reverence and physical offerings. Though my knowledge of Greek mythology is less than complete, I do believe that Poseidon had similar tendencies which is probably a major source of inspiration for pretty much any greedy/vain/capricious ocean deity found in modern fantasy, including Umberlee. So a cleric of such a god/goddess would be a lot like a divinely empowered mafia enforcer who goes around reminding sailors to pay their protection money (in the form of offerings and prayers) or they'll find themselves on the business end of a nasty storm on their next voyage. I can imagine a CN character being fine with this, but not a good aligned one.
If the Greyhawk pantheon (sometimes called the generic D&D pantheon) is allowed you might consider Kord. Kord is a god of strength, war and storms and, depending on which edition you're referencing, is either chaotic good(3.5) or chaotic neutral(5e). He's also basically a generic knockoff of Thor in a lot of ways, and is a patron to warriors and athletes who seems to be more concerned with might and glory while frowning upon outright evil and ******baggery.
If the Greyhawk pantheon (sometimes called the generic D&D pantheon) is allowed you might consider Kord.
That's not Kord from Greyhawk (at least not any Greyhawk I'm familiar with). Maybe some weird version from another setting that uses Kord's name, but he never had association with anything but sports, athleticism and brawling. Len Lakofka (the creator of the Suel pantheon and thus Kord) even called him Kord the Brawler. And I would hardly call the Greyhawk pantheons (note the plural) generic as at least they're (mostly) original as opposed to transplants from Earth mythology like Forgotten Realms.
And as I noted up thread, there are already several Greyhawk deities associated with the sea: Procan (a Greater god), Velnius and Xerbo (who is also Suloise like Kord).
He his at least in Matt Mercer's version, don't know about other iterations
That makes sense, but Mercer really should have called him something different then. Changing Kord's background basically means he absorbed part of another deity's domains (in this case, a fellow Suel god), which just feels like bad writing.
He his at least in Matt Mercer's version, don't know about other iterations
That makes sense, but Mercer really should have called him something different then. Changing Kord's background basically means he absorbed part of another deity's domains (in this case, a fellow Suel god), which just feels like bad writing.
Matt Mercer just uses a slightly altered Dawn War pantheon (4e's main pantheon) for Exandria, so the Kord that he uses for his campaign was overall WotC's decision, not his. If you dislike it, don't blame him, blame WotC and/or 4e.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The Ancient One was using powerful spells to steal energy from the dark dimension. Clerics in D&D are granted power by the deities directly. If you do not serve the purposes of the deity, they can just take away your powers. So, in general, no. A good character could not serve an evil deity and get power from them as a cleric and stay good. Unless you find an evil good whose tenets could be fulfilled in not-evil ways.
There's no mechanics for clerics regarding deity alignment anymore. As long as you can come up with a good reason for why you're a cleric of a specific god and not doing something that would get them to smite you, I don't see why you can't have a good cleric following an evil deity.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So, i'm making a neutral/good (not sure the exact alignment, but neutral will be in there somewhere) character, who worships the ocean and storms, who l plan on making a tempest cleric. However, if the forgotten realms setting/ pantheon is used, (or the Norse pantheon) and the DM doesn't change the gods alignments, the deity/s l worship will be CE. So, how would that work? Obviously the dm has final say on how religion works in their world, but l want to know if my question has a official answer, or at the very least, peoples opinions on the matter.
Edit: So, I like the ideas rob76 and flushmaster gave. (Umberlee is actually the main deity I was thinking about worshiping, so that's convenient) and their backstory does actually have them spend time on a (merchant) ship, though one thing I forgot to mention is they're a Triton who was born and raised in the water plane (city of glass specifically) and was raised in a somewhat religious household. This is how I was planing on setting the groundwork for her becomeing a Tempest cleric. So, it's good to know that there is a precedent for God's granting powers to those who don't exactly match their alignment.
Gods award clerics power because they exemplify a God's ideal or at least bring more of it in the world (like War, or Love, or Chaos, etc)
They way I see it, as long you respect your God's commandement it could make sense your God awards you power even if you aren't of the same alignment.
Although, as I see it, your alignment stems from how you act rather than the other way around. So if you obey a Chaotic Evil God's commands you're gonna do Chaotic Evil things and thus you'll tend to Chaotic Evil yourself.
No all Gods are the same though and while some are stickler to the rule, some are less regarding for their cleric to obey every rule (although you shouldn't act against your God's interrest).
I'd say for a CE God, if you're Chaotic yourself it could work even if your not Evil (Neutral might work better than Good).
I don't know if it helps but remember that being a Tempest Cleric doesn't mean you have to worship a straight up "God of the Storm", there's some room for interpretation (though less than other cleric order).
ps: there are a lot of Gods in Forgotten Realms lore, if your DM is okay with you should look it up and maybe pick one outside the Faerûnian Pantheon, you might find a God closer to what you'd like (I'd recommand the Forgotten Realms wiki for a list)
This is the problem of having gods and divinely channeled energy being real/measurable and not having alignment to conform. If it were at my table, I would not allow a Cleric to gain powers from a deity which is diametrically opposed to their alignment. Its not much, but I would suggest that maybe your Cleric worships an interloper god from (say) Greyhawk like Procan (Greater; Ocean, Seas, Salt; Oeridian/Common; Neutral Good) or Velnius (Lesser; Sky, Weather; Oeridian; Neutral <Good>) or Xerbo (Lesser; Sea, Water, Travel, Money, Business; Suloise; Neutral)
"I hated drawing power from the Dark Dimension, but as well you know, sometimes, one must break the rules in order to serve the greater good." -The Ancient One, Dr. Strange (2016)
She was decidedly Good in alignment through her actions, but the power she wielded was coming from a place of decidedly Evil alignment from its intents.
D&D is mostly about the exceptional situations that churn up life in the Realms and not the normal, expected things. Good character = Good deity is the normal, expected thing.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Given what you've said about being a cleric of a god of ocenas and storms I immediately thought of the forgotten realms diety Umberlee. She is CE but I think it would certainly be within the realms of possibility for sailors and other seafaring/sea fearing sorts to offer her prayers and what not. Although you would likely be tempted/requested to do some distateful things.
To quote form the 3.5e forgotten realms campaign book:
Umberlee, Dogma:
The sea is a strange place and those that travel it had best be willing to pay the price of challenging Umberlee's domain. Fair offerings bring fair winds to sea travellers, but those that do not pay their respects will find that the sea is as cold as Umberlee's heart. Spread word of the might of Umberlee and let no service be done in her name without a price. Make folks fear the wind and wave unless a cleric of Umberlee is there to protect them. Slay those who ascribe sea and storms to Talos (that means kill anyone who says the god Talos is responsible for sea and storms).
So based on that you may have been/still are a Chaotic Good sailor who got swept out to sea and were rescued by a cleric of the ocean/storm god and the price for your safe return to shore was to spread the word of the god and over time you've become a cleric, you find your faith is constantly tested (interactions with your DM), but you owe the cleric and by extension the god a debt and the price you pay is to faithfully spread the word.
Although they're a difference between giving offering and prayers to a deity and being the cleric of one.
Which, of course, is irrelevant as Good/Evil are not literal definable forces in the Marvel Cinematic Universe like they are in D&D. I mean, each individual DM has to make these determinations for their table, but the fact is that Clerics wield divine power by channeling it through their faith and being diametrically opposed to their deity means they shouldn't be able to channel that energy.
There is a difference but as I noted at the end of the post, faithfully spreading the word leads to you becoming a cleric over time. So before play starts you've come to realise that the God in question is something to be feared and worshipped and the little "superstitious" things you used to do become actual rituals you use to interact with a god. And although you may still be a non CE alignment the DM, in guise of the god, may try to sway you morally to be more like them and you have a aspect to your roleplay as you try to honour the god that impacted your life and you know has a tangible effect in the world without becoming the heartless/CE worshipper that is the sterotype for that god.
I could see that in some specific circumstances. Maybe for a demi good or barely above which would explain why that God has good reason to want you to become more like they are. Might be interesting for a PC arc, though I keep thinking the PC should at least be either Chaotic or Evil from the start (Neutral at worst).
I'd say it doesn't have to be. You can be a priest for a god without becoming a cleric (in the sense that you do preach the faith but don't receive any power from your God)
Back in third edition/3.5 the rule for clerics was that they could be one alignment step away from their deity (unless the deity in question had special restrictions like iirc St Cuthbert being LN but not accepting evil clerics). By that rationale a CE deity like Umberlee would accept and grant power/spells to neutral evil and chaotic neutral clerics as well as chaotic evil ones.
The way I see it, Umberlee is basically an extortionist who's dogma boils down to "give me stuff or feel my wrath." The "stuff" in this case being worship/reverence and physical offerings. Though my knowledge of Greek mythology is less than complete, I do believe that Poseidon had similar tendencies which is probably a major source of inspiration for pretty much any greedy/vain/capricious ocean deity found in modern fantasy, including Umberlee. So a cleric of such a god/goddess would be a lot like a divinely empowered mafia enforcer who goes around reminding sailors to pay their protection money (in the form of offerings and prayers) or they'll find themselves on the business end of a nasty storm on their next voyage. I can imagine a CN character being fine with this, but not a good aligned one.
If the Greyhawk pantheon (sometimes called the generic D&D pantheon) is allowed you might consider Kord. Kord is a god of strength, war and storms and, depending on which edition you're referencing, is either chaotic good(3.5) or chaotic neutral(5e). He's also basically a generic knockoff of Thor in a lot of ways, and is a patron to warriors and athletes who seems to be more concerned with might and glory while frowning upon outright evil and ******baggery.
That's not Kord from Greyhawk (at least not any Greyhawk I'm familiar with). Maybe some weird version from another setting that uses Kord's name, but he never had association with anything but sports, athleticism and brawling. Len Lakofka (the creator of the Suel pantheon and thus Kord) even called him Kord the Brawler. And I would hardly call the Greyhawk pantheons (note the plural) generic as at least they're (mostly) original as opposed to transplants from Earth mythology like Forgotten Realms.
And as I noted up thread, there are already several Greyhawk deities associated with the sea: Procan (a Greater god), Velnius and Xerbo (who is also Suloise like Kord).
I could've sworn I read somewhere that he's also associated with storms...
He his at least in Matt Mercer's version, don't know about other iterations
That makes sense, but Mercer really should have called him something different then. Changing Kord's background basically means he absorbed part of another deity's domains (in this case, a fellow Suel god), which just feels like bad writing.
Matt Mercer just uses a slightly altered Dawn War pantheon (4e's main pantheon) for Exandria, so the Kord that he uses for his campaign was overall WotC's decision, not his. If you dislike it, don't blame him, blame WotC and/or 4e.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Also, Gods can and do change portfollio from settings to settings. So it's not too far off.
The Ancient One was using powerful spells to steal energy from the dark dimension. Clerics in D&D are granted power by the deities directly. If you do not serve the purposes of the deity, they can just take away your powers. So, in general, no. A good character could not serve an evil deity and get power from them as a cleric and stay good. Unless you find an evil good whose tenets could be fulfilled in not-evil ways.
There's no mechanics for clerics regarding deity alignment anymore. As long as you can come up with a good reason for why you're a cleric of a specific god and not doing something that would get them to smite you, I don't see why you can't have a good cleric following an evil deity.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Because if you're not actively working toward their goals, they have no reason to give you power.
Just because you're not of the same alignment doesn't mean you're not actively working toward one or more of the god's goals.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.