And I'm not talking about modified orcs, or your homebrew orcs. I mean the 5e orc as they traditionally are, the raiders who are extremely strong, brutal, and not too Bright (pun intended). These orcs who are these tough and murderous raiders, who form large bands to wage war on human settlements, especially weak ones, and who worship Gruumsh and Luthic with almost a fanatic element. Those orcs. It seems to me that the way their war strategies operate, combined with their conflict with the militarized goblinoid races under Maglubyiet, make them really unable to forge a lasting empire. They are strong and powerful, and capable of forging weapons for battle and for seige, but their lack of intelligence, combined with their inability to have an effective ruler, make me skeptical. They way they rule is that whoever is strongest and bests the current ruler gets the "throne". This means that leadership qualities and any sort of traditional leadership as elves or humans might see it is basically out the window. This doesn't mean their rulers are stupid. After all, a orc war chief has an intelligence of 11, compared to the vanilla orc's 7. I take this to mean they are tactically smart. They know how to fight, and they have enough combat discipline (sort of) and brutal strength to best another orc. However, this system of rule creates disunity, with the exception of something like the Many-Arrows tribe, effectually missing any semblance of ordered leadership or structure. Their philosophy is really be strong, win, win again, and keep beating what they see as "weaker" races (basically anyone who's not an orc). But they have to lose sometime right? Sure they have a resilience and an enduring spirit to fight. They don't just go home and say "whelp, that was fun. Oh well guess we'd better turn to farming now." No, their whole lives, heck, their religions are centered around war. So they're resilient, but only to come back, and, eventually, lose again. Add this to the fact that they and the goblins are pretty much locked in an eternal war similar to the blood war (really their god's fault if you ask me, come on guys work it out), which doesn't help matters much. So I guess my main point, underlining all that is this: orcs don't seem capable of being able to form a lasting empire or kingdom, due to their leadership method. they are strong, powerful fighters, and not really much else. That also makes it hard for multiple war bands to work together, due to infighting. So what's the answer? IS there an answer? (I will say this, I'm NOT asking for a critique or skepticism on how orcs are in 5e. Everyone can have opinions on that, but I'm purely asking about traditional, 5e orcs (I guess traditional is a misnomer for 5e, but you get the point).)
I know it's not what you're asking about... but I just can't get the idea out of my head now.
Make a campaign about an Orc who's out to unite the Orcs. He is surprisingly intelligent for an Orc and has realised all the problems listed above. His goal is to unite all the Orcs under one rule and conquer the land. This could go in three ways, I suppose:
Have an Orc PC. Or all Orc party. Either way, it's the players' direct goal to do the above. Sounds like a lot of intrigue, with some fighting - mostly internal to gain control. It could either be a party's goal to rule all others, or just one party member, with the others finding a reason to support them.
Have an Orc NPC ally. It's the above, but the intelligent Orc is an NPC whom the PCs support. It's more or less the same as the above, I suppose.
An Orc leader is the villain. He's especially smart and is uniting the Orc clans one by one, planning to conquer the lands. The party should aim to stop him. Perhaps the Goblins ask for them/they are Goblins/they ask for the Goblins' help?
I find the above ideas much more appealing than a dragon threat, tbh, but that might just be me.
As 5th Edition does not have a setting where the lore and story are moving in a linear direction, that precludes the ability for a major change to happen because there's nothing that can be changed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As 5th Edition does not have a setting where the lore and story are moving in a linear direction, that precludes the ability for a major change to happen because there's nothing that can be changed.
I understand what you're saying, my question was more hypothetical, not as much asking about books or a cohesive story line. My question was more If they were to try to conquer a large area, could they do it? How? Is it even possible the way they're laid out? Not necessarily saying I'm right, but that I'd like to hear solutions to the problem I posed.
I doubt they can hold a large area unless people don’t want it but they can definitely be a thorn in the side of any nation that want’s to expand
Oh for sure. I definitely don't want to sound like orcs are no big deal, but I kind of feel like they're similar to demons in a way. forces of chaos, bent on destruction, very inhibiting to other intelligent, and more ordered creatures, but by extension also to themselves.
I doubt they can hold a large area unless people don’t want it but they can definitely be a thorn in the side of any nation that want’s to expand
Oh for sure. I definitely don't want to sound like orcs are no big deal, but I kind of feel like they're similar to demons in a way. forces of chaos, bent on destruction, very inhibiting to other intelligent, and more ordered creatures, but by extension also to themselves.
Come to think of it hobgoblin and orks mirror devils and demons so that’s odd. Orks slowdown nation growth and make area very hard to expand into but the really trouble is when something else works with them
I doubt they can hold a large area unless people don’t want it but they can definitely be a thorn in the side of any nation that want’s to expand
Oh for sure. I definitely don't want to sound like orcs are no big deal, but I kind of feel like they're similar to demons in a way. forces of chaos, bent on destruction, very inhibiting to other intelligent, and more ordered creatures, but by extension also to themselves.
Come to think of it hobgoblin and orks mirror devils and demons so that’s odd. Orks slowdown nation growth and make area very hard to expand into but the really trouble is when something else works with them
No for real. When I knew very little about D&D at all, I thought the blood war was between orcs and goblins!
As 5th Edition does not have a setting where the lore and story are moving in a linear direction, that precludes the ability for a major change to happen because there's nothing that can be changed.
I understand what you're saying, my question was more hypothetical, not as much asking about books or a cohesive story line. My question was more If they were to try to conquer a large area, could they do it? How? Is it even possible the way they're laid out? Not necessarily saying I'm right, but that I'd like to hear solutions to the problem I posed.
Oh, in that case absolutely. All they need is a charismatic leader who can rally enough support to their banner to take and hold an area, the size of which would be based on how many orcs were in the warband and how much opposition there is against it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As 5th Edition does not have a setting where the lore and story are moving in a linear direction, that precludes the ability for a major change to happen because there's nothing that can be changed.
I understand what you're saying, my question was more hypothetical, not as much asking about books or a cohesive story line. My question was more If they were to try to conquer a large area, could they do it? How? Is it even possible the way they're laid out? Not necessarily saying I'm right, but that I'd like to hear solutions to the problem I posed.
Oh, in that case absolutely. All they need is a charismatic leader who can rally enough support to their banner to take and hold an area, the size of which would be based on how many orcs were in the warband and how much opposition there is against it.
The problem isn't so much takeover. They could, if they had a charismatic leader like you said, feasibly takeover an enemy kingdom, especially if they gathered enough forces. But staying in power and maintaining a semblance of something like a human kingdom is something that I think they could not do, based on the chain of command.
As 5th Edition does not have a setting where the lore and story are moving in a linear direction, that precludes the ability for a major change to happen because there's nothing that can be changed.
I understand what you're saying, my question was more hypothetical, not as much asking about books or a cohesive story line. My question was more If they were to try to conquer a large area, could they do it? How? Is it even possible the way they're laid out? Not necessarily saying I'm right, but that I'd like to hear solutions to the problem I posed.
Oh, in that case absolutely. All they need is a charismatic leader who can rally enough support to their banner to take and hold an area, the size of which would be based on how many orcs were in the warband and how much opposition there is against it.
The problem isn't so much takeover. They could, if they had a charismatic leader like you said, feasibly takeover an enemy kingdom, especially if they gathered enough forces. But staying in power and maintaining a semblance of something like a human kingdom is something that I think they could not do, based on the chain of command.
An orcish-controlled kingdom doesn't need the same hierarchy or chain of command as a human kingdom. We're not building the Roman Empire here. Many real-world kingdoms had fairly loose hierarchies and still controlled significant amounts of territory.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As 5th Edition does not have a setting where the lore and story are moving in a linear direction, that precludes the ability for a major change to happen because there's nothing that can be changed.
I understand what you're saying, my question was more hypothetical, not as much asking about books or a cohesive story line. My question was more If they were to try to conquer a large area, could they do it? How? Is it even possible the way they're laid out? Not necessarily saying I'm right, but that I'd like to hear solutions to the problem I posed.
Oh, in that case absolutely. All they need is a charismatic leader who can rally enough support to their banner to take and hold an area, the size of which would be based on how many orcs were in the warband and how much opposition there is against it.
The problem isn't so much takeover. They could, if they had a charismatic leader like you said, feasibly takeover an enemy kingdom, especially if they gathered enough forces. But staying in power and maintaining a semblance of something like a human kingdom is something that I think they could not do, based on the chain of command.
An orcish-controlled kingdom doesn't need the same hierarchy or chain of command as a human kingdom. We're not building the Roman Empire here. Many real-world kingdoms had fairly loose hierarchies and still controlled significant amounts of territory.
It's unstable. Yes it could happen, and if so would be different than something like Rome, my point is that if every new leader has to just be stronger or better, not really better at leading itself, the kingship (or whatever you want to call it) is unstable. They can't significantly develop things necessary to a functioning society. They way they currently operate, conquer, destroy, kill, and live in warbands, seems to work as is. I just have doubts they could truly go further.
And I'm not talking about modified orcs, or your homebrew orcs. I mean the 5e orc as they traditionally are, the raiders who are extremely strong, brutal, and not too Bright (pun intended). These orcs who are these tough and murderous raiders, who form large bands to wage war on human settlements, especially weak ones, and who worship Gruumsh and Luthic with almost a fanatic element. Those orcs. It seems to me that the way their war strategies operate, combined with their conflict with the militarized goblinoid races under Maglubyiet, make them really unable to forge a lasting empire. They are strong and powerful, and capable of forging weapons for battle and for seige, but their lack of intelligence, combined with their inability to have an effective ruler, make me skeptical. They way they rule is that whoever is strongest and bests the current ruler gets the "throne". This means that leadership qualities and any sort of traditional leadership as elves or humans might see it is basically out the window. This doesn't mean their rulers are stupid. After all, a orc war chief has an intelligence of 11, compared to the vanilla orc's 7. I take this to mean they are tactically smart. They know how to fight, and they have enough combat discipline (sort of) and brutal strength to best another orc. However, this system of rule creates disunity, with the exception of something like the Many-Arrows tribe, effectually missing any semblance of ordered leadership or structure. Their philosophy is really be strong, win, win again, and keep beating what they see as "weaker" races (basically anyone who's not an orc). But they have to lose sometime right? Sure they have a resilience and an enduring spirit to fight. They don't just go home and say "whelp, that was fun. Oh well guess we'd better turn to farming now." No, their whole lives, heck, their religions are centered around war. So they're resilient, but only to come back, and, eventually, lose again. Add this to the fact that they and the goblins are pretty much locked in an eternal war similar to the blood war (really their god's fault if you ask me, come on guys work it out), which doesn't help matters much. So I guess my main point, underlining all that is this: orcs don't seem capable of being able to form a lasting empire or kingdom, due to their leadership method. they are strong, powerful fighters, and not really much else. That also makes it hard for multiple war bands to work together, due to infighting. So what's the answer? IS there an answer? (I will say this, I'm NOT asking for a critique or skepticism on how orcs are in 5e. Everyone can have opinions on that, but I'm purely asking about traditional, 5e orcs (I guess traditional is a misnomer for 5e, but you get the point).)
5e orcs are designed to be monsters, not "civilized people" -- marauders and raiders, not creatures capable of building 'acceptable' versions of functional societies
You would really have to introduce something or someone exceptional and "off book" (powerful magic, a Genghis Khan-like orc leader, maybe both) into the world to make it happen
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Think Planet Of the Apes and then add an orcs brain capacity. If you have a large enough number of persecutory bullies who were looking to target and kill opponents on sight then they'd have a good chance to take over.
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And I'm not talking about modified orcs, or your homebrew orcs. I mean the 5e orc as they traditionally are, the raiders who are extremely strong, brutal, and not too Bright (pun intended). These orcs who are these tough and murderous raiders, who form large bands to wage war on human settlements, especially weak ones, and who worship Gruumsh and Luthic with almost a fanatic element. Those orcs. It seems to me that the way their war strategies operate, combined with their conflict with the militarized goblinoid races under Maglubyiet, make them really unable to forge a lasting empire. They are strong and powerful, and capable of forging weapons for battle and for seige, but their lack of intelligence, combined with their inability to have an effective ruler, make me skeptical. They way they rule is that whoever is strongest and bests the current ruler gets the "throne". This means that leadership qualities and any sort of traditional leadership as elves or humans might see it is basically out the window. This doesn't mean their rulers are stupid. After all, a orc war chief has an intelligence of 11, compared to the vanilla orc's 7. I take this to mean they are tactically smart. They know how to fight, and they have enough combat discipline (sort of) and brutal strength to best another orc. However, this system of rule creates disunity, with the exception of something like the Many-Arrows tribe, effectually missing any semblance of ordered leadership or structure. Their philosophy is really be strong, win, win again, and keep beating what they see as "weaker" races (basically anyone who's not an orc). But they have to lose sometime right? Sure they have a resilience and an enduring spirit to fight. They don't just go home and say "whelp, that was fun. Oh well guess we'd better turn to farming now." No, their whole lives, heck, their religions are centered around war. So they're resilient, but only to come back, and, eventually, lose again. Add this to the fact that they and the goblins are pretty much locked in an eternal war similar to the blood war (really their god's fault if you ask me, come on guys work it out), which doesn't help matters much. So I guess my main point, underlining all that is this: orcs don't seem capable of being able to form a lasting empire or kingdom, due to their leadership method. they are strong, powerful fighters, and not really much else. That also makes it hard for multiple war bands to work together, due to infighting. So what's the answer? IS there an answer? (I will say this, I'm NOT asking for a critique or skepticism on how orcs are in 5e. Everyone can have opinions on that, but I'm purely asking about traditional, 5e orcs (I guess traditional is a misnomer for 5e, but you get the point).)
Updog
I know it's not what you're asking about... but I just can't get the idea out of my head now.
Make a campaign about an Orc who's out to unite the Orcs. He is surprisingly intelligent for an Orc and has realised all the problems listed above. His goal is to unite all the Orcs under one rule and conquer the land. This could go in three ways, I suppose:
I find the above ideas much more appealing than a dragon threat, tbh, but that might just be me.
Varielky
As 5th Edition does not have a setting where the lore and story are moving in a linear direction, that precludes the ability for a major change to happen because there's nothing that can be changed.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I understand what you're saying, my question was more hypothetical, not as much asking about books or a cohesive story line. My question was more If they were to try to conquer a large area, could they do it? How? Is it even possible the way they're laid out? Not necessarily saying I'm right, but that I'd like to hear solutions to the problem I posed.
Updog
I doubt they can hold a large area unless people don’t want it but they can definitely be a thorn in the side of any nation that want’s to expand
Mostly nocturnal
help build a world here
Oh for sure. I definitely don't want to sound like orcs are no big deal, but I kind of feel like they're similar to demons in a way. forces of chaos, bent on destruction, very inhibiting to other intelligent, and more ordered creatures, but by extension also to themselves.
Updog
Come to think of it hobgoblin and orks mirror devils and demons so that’s odd. Orks slowdown nation growth and make area very hard to expand into but the really trouble is when something else works with them
Mostly nocturnal
help build a world here
No for real. When I knew very little about D&D at all, I thought the blood war was between orcs and goblins!
Updog
Oh, in that case absolutely. All they need is a charismatic leader who can rally enough support to their banner to take and hold an area, the size of which would be based on how many orcs were in the warband and how much opposition there is against it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The problem isn't so much takeover. They could, if they had a charismatic leader like you said, feasibly takeover an enemy kingdom, especially if they gathered enough forces. But staying in power and maintaining a semblance of something like a human kingdom is something that I think they could not do, based on the chain of command.
Updog
An orcish-controlled kingdom doesn't need the same hierarchy or chain of command as a human kingdom. We're not building the Roman Empire here. Many real-world kingdoms had fairly loose hierarchies and still controlled significant amounts of territory.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's unstable. Yes it could happen, and if so would be different than something like Rome, my point is that if every new leader has to just be stronger or better, not really better at leading itself, the kingship (or whatever you want to call it) is unstable. They can't significantly develop things necessary to a functioning society. They way they currently operate, conquer, destroy, kill, and live in warbands, seems to work as is. I just have doubts they could truly go further.
Updog
5e orcs are designed to be monsters, not "civilized people" -- marauders and raiders, not creatures capable of building 'acceptable' versions of functional societies
You would really have to introduce something or someone exceptional and "off book" (powerful magic, a Genghis Khan-like orc leader, maybe both) into the world to make it happen
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Could Orcs achieve dominance?
Think Planet Of the Apes and then add an orcs brain capacity. If you have a large enough number of persecutory bullies who were looking to target and kill opponents on sight then they'd have a good chance to take over.