So some background info before we begin. My brother and I are planning to make a set of characters that are linked before a campaign. Right now my brother is going to play a Kalashtar Runic Warrior fighter. The backstory to quickly go over it is that he was raised by a group of Norse Frost Giants that brought him in and raised him with their beliefs. As he grows the spirit that is connected to him begins to convince him that it's name is Tyr and that he was selected for a greater purpose. Eventually the frost giants convince him to met with someone that is connected to their Norse gods as well but is not a frost giant. Which is were my character comes in.
I have been trying to decide what class to play and what subclass. The idea behind my character is while I am openly a disciple of all Norse gods and goddess, I actually only truly worship Loki and through direct communication he has told my character of my brother's character and Loki wishes to use him to cause havoc and maybe even corrupt Tyr.
So I would like to see what someone with a different perspective would think about what class they would play and I wouldn't mind any thoughts on the backgrounds of both characters. Currently my character is the leader between the two and he always tells my brother's character that whatever we do is the will of the gods and is what Tyr would want.
That is true and it was the first thing to come to mind for me as well but, IMO I thought that would be kind of boring. I just don't think the Trickery Domain is all that good but once again that is just my opinion
Trickery Cleric is actually quite good! Your ability to easily give your friend advantage on Stealth checks (not spending any limited resource to do so) helps with a common issue in parties (the Fighter in heavy armor single-handedly sabotaging a group Stealth check that everyone else is passing). The Channel Divinity feature to Invoke Duplicity lets you deliver healing and touch spells from range (or even from Hiding?) much more easily than characters can normally do with Familiars (which require complicated held actions, waiting for the Familiar to move on its own turn, and then both you and the familiar using your reactions to deliver the spell). Depending on your build, its probably not likely that the other benefit of that feature (advantage on attacks while you and the duplicate are both within 5 feet of a target) will be used much, because Trickery clerics aren't one of the subclasses that hands out heavy armor and martial weapons and tries to steer you in that direction... but maybe, and for a Trickery Cleric/Rogue delivering Sneak Attacks, VERY GOOD! The level 6 Cloak of Shadow is probably not a great use of your limited Channel Divinity, that's true, but could still be useful outside of combat in a roleplaying scenario.
That said, even if you want to be a Cleric and worship a Trickster god, there's no reason that you have to be the Trickery subclass! Unlike prior editions, 5E is very flexible with clerics defining their own thematic relationship to their god, and even if you want to be something like an Order domain cleric.... up to you! You could easily reskin "Order" as "Manipulation", and brand those spells and abilities as you subtly ceding doubt and manipulating your brother into acting as you dictate... totally within your discretion as a player, as long as you're not mechanically changing how any of the spells or features operate. Other subclasses that might fit with "Loki" could be Twilight (he's a god that straddles between good and evil and plays both sides, much like Twilight between light and dark), War (Loki seeks havoc and the end times!), etc.
Or, you could consider a Warlock with a personal relationship with Loki as a patron, rather than (or in addition to?) an open priest worshiping Loki as a god. Again, 5E classes are more about mechanics than about hard definitions of what it means to worship, so Loki could as easily be a Fey patron (or a gift from him be your Hexblade patron, or a manifestation of him be your Genie, etc.) as he could be a God for a cleric.
Or, you might be a Bard of some sort, and focus on personally manipulating your brother with your own talents (at the behest of Loki), rather than being a conduit for Loki's power to directly influence them. Whispers, Glamour, Eloquence, Valor, Spirits.... there's no shortage of Bard subclasses that thematically revolve around influencing or guiding your companions or the weak-willed masses.
Or, on the nonmagical front, the Mastermind Rogue is a classic schemer, and also has a mechanical ability to easily Help its allies from a distance, in and out of combat. Offering to Help your brother break down a door as a "helpful" suggestion that steers him towards a crime he wasn't already considering, while not personally getting your hands dirty, sounds very manipulative and thematic to me... but that might not be strictly RAW, the help-from-range feature is worded in a way that actually limits it to attacks in combat, and its very open for interpretation whether non-attack Helps are usually limited to being able to physically assist.
Hmmm, what about an Artificer, who creates helpful magical items that you give to your brother to use... and either agree to roleplay that those items have subtle personality-effecting curses that come with them, or make it outright extortion ("you can have this magic axe! but, if you don't agree to follow my lead.... I can take it away just like *that*, so stay in line!").
You could also leave the manipulation entirely on the roleplaying front, and just play any old character you want!
I will say, being a support character that has the ability to cast Enlarge/Reduce on your Rune Knight friend will feel fun/funny, why be Large when you could be Huge instead? The Rune Knight is a fairly self-sufficient class that provides its benefits in a wide radius, so they don't really need a specific sort of ally to shine... but in general, fighters often appreciate buffs like Haste, Elemental Weapon, Bless, Heroism, or non-spell buff features like a Bard's inspiration.
Wow that's a lot of info! Thanks I have also thought of Shadow sorcerer to kind of mimic his coming out of nowhere abilities and had actually thought of doing either College of Whispers Bard/ Shadow Sorcerer for the ultimate puppet master in the shadows or Shadow Sorcerer/Assassin Rouge for the stealthiest game play. But with that information maybe Whisper Bard/Mastermind Rouge? Maybe Assassin Rouge instead of Mastermind for the full imitating some one first slaying them and using the Whispers' Mantle of Whispers to steal a shadow and then the Assassin's Infiltration Expertise to just blend in any where for a quick moment
Wow that's a lot of info! Thanks I have also thought of Shadow sorcerer to kind of mimic his coming out of nowhere abilities and had actually thought of doing either College of Whispers Bard/ Shadow Sorcerer for the ultimate puppet master in the shadows or Shadow Sorcerer/Assassin Rouge for the stealthiest game play. But with that information maybe Whisper Bard/Mastermind Rouge? Maybe Assassin Rouge instead of Mastermind for the full imitating some one first slaying them and using the Whispers' Mantle of Whispers to steal a shadow and then the Assassin's Infiltration Expertise to just blend in any where for a quick moment
You're mixing a bunch of memes here, as well as mixing and matching good and bad subclasses. I think you need a better idea of what sort of character you're looking to make.
If you want to make a beguiling trickster figure socially using a Bard subclass, Eloquence Bard is the way to go. Radically better at puppet mastery than Whisper Bards. Assassin rogues aren't good at Assassinating, but there's no question Mastermind is an incredibly poor match for what you seem to be describing - Masterminds are usually basically Arcane Tricksters but worse. Speaking of which, Arcane Trickster fits what you're describing better than Assassin does.
Trickery is easily one of the worst cleric domains, incidentally. You're not wrong about that.
Based on what you're describing, I'd take a long look at Arcane Trickster, Eloquence Bard, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (Shadow Sorcerers are good, but Aberrant Mind Sorcerers have even broader access to Subtle Spell shenanigans and substantially broader access to mind control spells). Once you have a core class in mind, you can contemplate dipping into something else to firm the build up to match what you want.
I don't disagree that Assassin is a poor multiclass (for almost any possible build, as well as being a poor class in its own right), but I do disagree that Whisper Bard/Shadow Sorcerer is terrible (no ability score tension, no competing action economy), Whisper Bard/Mastermind Rogue is terrible (little ability score tension, no competing action economy if Bardic Inspiration is used for the Whisper's damage rather than normal Bard stuff), or that Eloquence is hands down better than Whisper in general (Whisper is a deadly melee combatant and good at impersonating others, with some niche social encounter use; Eloquence is good at social encounters and buffing allies/debuffing enemies in combat, with no particular personal combat enhancements).
I do agree that when creating a character, its best to think about your mechanics first, and the name/theme of the features second. For instance, it feels bad to realize that you've build a character which can do two different cool things with a Bonus Action but has no way to use both those Bonus Actions together.
Whether you call your Bard a member of the "Whisper," "Eloquence," or even "Lore" college on its sheet has little or no relation to how you roleplay the character, where you describe the source of their power or learning, etc. So instead, look at what the base class lets you do, what the subclass changes, what action economy/resources those abilities use, and what sort of pressures multiclassing will put on where you're allocating your ability scores, feats, and ASI's. Think about some basic questions like "Do I want to use melee weapons, ranged weapons, or spells? What will I use my Action for, and my Bonus Action for, on most rounds? Do I see my role as a damage dealer, or as a problem solver?", not "what subclass has a name that makes me think "tricky"." Also, I try to always pause to think "is this class feature something new I couldn't do without it, or just something that makes me better at something I can already do without it?"
Thank you all for the info. After seeing everyone's input and after thinking about it some and kind of restarting the process I believe I know what I mostly want to go for. I want this character to basically invade the minds of others mostly charming, frighten, and so on basically control. I also need to be somewhat combat worthy so I was thinking in keeping with the whole "invading other's minds" thing going sort of focusing on psychic damage since I will be attacking their psyche directly. My character does not actually have any reason to fully support the other character he would see them as tools to met Loki's goal and the only one that sort of matters is the brother character but he can be replaced seeing as there are other Kalashtar that can be manipulated in the same way. So with all of this I am thinking a Bard of some kind most likely College of Lore, Wizard: School of Enchantment, or Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. Bard would allow me to have some what of a melee/range presence while both Sorcerer and Wizard would allow me to use more magic especially Sorcerer with Meta Magic but at higher levels I could cast certain spells from my spell book for free as a Wizard.
Hello, everyone
So some background info before we begin. My brother and I are planning to make a set of characters that are linked before a campaign. Right now my brother is going to play a Kalashtar Runic Warrior fighter. The backstory to quickly go over it is that he was raised by a group of Norse Frost Giants that brought him in and raised him with their beliefs. As he grows the spirit that is connected to him begins to convince him that it's name is Tyr and that he was selected for a greater purpose. Eventually the frost giants convince him to met with someone that is connected to their Norse gods as well but is not a frost giant. Which is were my character comes in.
I have been trying to decide what class to play and what subclass. The idea behind my character is while I am openly a disciple of all Norse gods and goddess, I actually only truly worship Loki and through direct communication he has told my character of my brother's character and Loki wishes to use him to cause havoc and maybe even corrupt Tyr.
So I would like to see what someone with a different perspective would think about what class they would play and I wouldn't mind any thoughts on the backgrounds of both characters. Currently my character is the leader between the two and he always tells my brother's character that whatever we do is the will of the gods and is what Tyr would want.
A trickery domain cleric comes immediately to mind.
That is true and it was the first thing to come to mind for me as well but, IMO I thought that would be kind of boring. I just don't think the Trickery Domain is all that good but once again that is just my opinion
Trickery Cleric is actually quite good! Your ability to easily give your friend advantage on Stealth checks (not spending any limited resource to do so) helps with a common issue in parties (the Fighter in heavy armor single-handedly sabotaging a group Stealth check that everyone else is passing). The Channel Divinity feature to Invoke Duplicity lets you deliver healing and touch spells from range (or even from Hiding?) much more easily than characters can normally do with Familiars (which require complicated held actions, waiting for the Familiar to move on its own turn, and then both you and the familiar using your reactions to deliver the spell). Depending on your build, its probably not likely that the other benefit of that feature (advantage on attacks while you and the duplicate are both within 5 feet of a target) will be used much, because Trickery clerics aren't one of the subclasses that hands out heavy armor and martial weapons and tries to steer you in that direction... but maybe, and for a Trickery Cleric/Rogue delivering Sneak Attacks, VERY GOOD! The level 6 Cloak of Shadow is probably not a great use of your limited Channel Divinity, that's true, but could still be useful outside of combat in a roleplaying scenario.
That said, even if you want to be a Cleric and worship a Trickster god, there's no reason that you have to be the Trickery subclass! Unlike prior editions, 5E is very flexible with clerics defining their own thematic relationship to their god, and even if you want to be something like an Order domain cleric.... up to you! You could easily reskin "Order" as "Manipulation", and brand those spells and abilities as you subtly ceding doubt and manipulating your brother into acting as you dictate... totally within your discretion as a player, as long as you're not mechanically changing how any of the spells or features operate. Other subclasses that might fit with "Loki" could be Twilight (he's a god that straddles between good and evil and plays both sides, much like Twilight between light and dark), War (Loki seeks havoc and the end times!), etc.
Or, you could consider a Warlock with a personal relationship with Loki as a patron, rather than (or in addition to?) an open priest worshiping Loki as a god. Again, 5E classes are more about mechanics than about hard definitions of what it means to worship, so Loki could as easily be a Fey patron (or a gift from him be your Hexblade patron, or a manifestation of him be your Genie, etc.) as he could be a God for a cleric.
Or, you might be a Bard of some sort, and focus on personally manipulating your brother with your own talents (at the behest of Loki), rather than being a conduit for Loki's power to directly influence them. Whispers, Glamour, Eloquence, Valor, Spirits.... there's no shortage of Bard subclasses that thematically revolve around influencing or guiding your companions or the weak-willed masses.
Or, on the nonmagical front, the Mastermind Rogue is a classic schemer, and also has a mechanical ability to easily Help its allies from a distance, in and out of combat. Offering to Help your brother break down a door as a "helpful" suggestion that steers him towards a crime he wasn't already considering, while not personally getting your hands dirty, sounds very manipulative and thematic to me... but that might not be strictly RAW, the help-from-range feature is worded in a way that actually limits it to attacks in combat, and its very open for interpretation whether non-attack Helps are usually limited to being able to physically assist.
Hmmm, what about an Artificer, who creates helpful magical items that you give to your brother to use... and either agree to roleplay that those items have subtle personality-effecting curses that come with them, or make it outright extortion ("you can have this magic axe! but, if you don't agree to follow my lead.... I can take it away just like *that*, so stay in line!").
You could also leave the manipulation entirely on the roleplaying front, and just play any old character you want!
I will say, being a support character that has the ability to cast Enlarge/Reduce on your Rune Knight friend will feel fun/funny, why be Large when you could be Huge instead? The Rune Knight is a fairly self-sufficient class that provides its benefits in a wide radius, so they don't really need a specific sort of ally to shine... but in general, fighters often appreciate buffs like Haste, Elemental Weapon, Bless, Heroism, or non-spell buff features like a Bard's inspiration.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Wow that's a lot of info! Thanks I have also thought of Shadow sorcerer to kind of mimic his coming out of nowhere abilities and had actually thought of doing either College of Whispers Bard/ Shadow Sorcerer for the ultimate puppet master in the shadows or Shadow Sorcerer/Assassin Rouge for the stealthiest game play. But with that information maybe Whisper Bard/Mastermind Rouge? Maybe Assassin Rouge instead of Mastermind for the full imitating some one first slaying them and using the Whispers' Mantle of Whispers to steal a shadow and then the Assassin's Infiltration Expertise to just blend in any where for a quick moment
You're mixing a bunch of memes here, as well as mixing and matching good and bad subclasses. I think you need a better idea of what sort of character you're looking to make.
If you want to make a beguiling trickster figure socially using a Bard subclass, Eloquence Bard is the way to go. Radically better at puppet mastery than Whisper Bards. Assassin rogues aren't good at Assassinating, but there's no question Mastermind is an incredibly poor match for what you seem to be describing - Masterminds are usually basically Arcane Tricksters but worse. Speaking of which, Arcane Trickster fits what you're describing better than Assassin does.
Trickery is easily one of the worst cleric domains, incidentally. You're not wrong about that.
Based on what you're describing, I'd take a long look at Arcane Trickster, Eloquence Bard, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (Shadow Sorcerers are good, but Aberrant Mind Sorcerers have even broader access to Subtle Spell shenanigans and substantially broader access to mind control spells). Once you have a core class in mind, you can contemplate dipping into something else to firm the build up to match what you want.
I don't disagree that Assassin is a poor multiclass (for almost any possible build, as well as being a poor class in its own right), but I do disagree that Whisper Bard/Shadow Sorcerer is terrible (no ability score tension, no competing action economy), Whisper Bard/Mastermind Rogue is terrible (little ability score tension, no competing action economy if Bardic Inspiration is used for the Whisper's damage rather than normal Bard stuff), or that Eloquence is hands down better than Whisper in general (Whisper is a deadly melee combatant and good at impersonating others, with some niche social encounter use; Eloquence is good at social encounters and buffing allies/debuffing enemies in combat, with no particular personal combat enhancements).
I do agree that when creating a character, its best to think about your mechanics first, and the name/theme of the features second. For instance, it feels bad to realize that you've build a character which can do two different cool things with a Bonus Action but has no way to use both those Bonus Actions together.
Whether you call your Bard a member of the "Whisper," "Eloquence," or even "Lore" college on its sheet has little or no relation to how you roleplay the character, where you describe the source of their power or learning, etc. So instead, look at what the base class lets you do, what the subclass changes, what action economy/resources those abilities use, and what sort of pressures multiclassing will put on where you're allocating your ability scores, feats, and ASI's. Think about some basic questions like "Do I want to use melee weapons, ranged weapons, or spells? What will I use my Action for, and my Bonus Action for, on most rounds? Do I see my role as a damage dealer, or as a problem solver?", not "what subclass has a name that makes me think "tricky"." Also, I try to always pause to think "is this class feature something new I couldn't do without it, or just something that makes me better at something I can already do without it?"
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Wizard: School of Illusion X + Rogue: Arcane Trickster X + Changeling + Noble.
Just saying.
Thank you all for the info. After seeing everyone's input and after thinking about it some and kind of restarting the process I believe I know what I mostly want to go for. I want this character to basically invade the minds of others mostly charming, frighten, and so on basically control. I also need to be somewhat combat worthy so I was thinking in keeping with the whole "invading other's minds" thing going sort of focusing on psychic damage since I will be attacking their psyche directly. My character does not actually have any reason to fully support the other character he would see them as tools to met Loki's goal and the only one that sort of matters is the brother character but he can be replaced seeing as there are other Kalashtar that can be manipulated in the same way. So with all of this I am thinking a Bard of some kind most likely College of Lore, Wizard: School of Enchantment, or Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. Bard would allow me to have some what of a melee/range presence while both Sorcerer and Wizard would allow me to use more magic especially Sorcerer with Meta Magic but at higher levels I could cast certain spells from my spell book for free as a Wizard.