I can't find the referance but Fireball is intentionally more powerful than other instantanious damage dealing spells and RAW it requires a dex save. I wouldn't say it is a must at level 5 (and some classes can't get it anyway). Counterspell, dispel magic, spirtit Guardians, fear, slow hypnotic pattern, revivify and tiny hut are all top tier 3rd level spells along with fireball. Notice that in that list all the other spells that require a spell require wis saves, generally speaking while dex saves are the most common (not just from spells) wis saves are generally the ones you want ot save most from. Strength saves are much rarer than dex saves but are no more potent. (Charisma and int saves are rareer than even strength saves but the results of failing can be catastrophic, the last PC death in a game I was in was due to havnig his brain sucked out by a mind flayer)
I agree some DMs allow Dex to be used where it probably shouldn't be for example replacing an athletics check with acrobatics but rules as written Dex saves are far more important than strength.
All abilities are of use in the game and I have not encountered a DM that makes any completely useless. Having said that PCs build there PC abilitity scores around what they will use most. Cless specific uses the order is Generally tas given below (A/B means A and B is either order):
Barb: Str, Con, Dex
Fighter: Str, OR Dex
Rogue: Dex
Monk: Dex, Wis,
Paladin: Str/Cha OR (less frequently) Dex/Cha
Ranger: Dex, Wis OR Str , Wis
Artificer: Int often is a secondary stat depending on build)
Bard: Cha
Sorcerer: Cha
Warlock: Cha
Druid: Wis
Cleric: Wis (smoetimes with dex or str as a secondary ability)
Wizard: Int.
Con is important for all characters for hit points and it is an important save (for spell casters it is the most important save by a long way but it is common even outside of concentration checks)
Dex is an important stat for all character for AC (unless they have heavy armor) initiative and it is an important save, depending on the DM and the party everyone have decent stealth can also be important
Wisdom Is an important save, and perception is the most important skill (insight is also very useful even without being a lie detector)
Charisma: It is important to have one person to act as a face. Some players feel if they have ideas about what to say to NPCs they don't want to be stopped because their players lack of charisma means they would be ignored or misinterpreted.
Int: Inportant for several very important skills but generally only need one person to make those checks.
Str: One moderately important skill.
I know you can switch the ability used for a skill check but I think that should be circumstantial, picking a runic lock might require int but a mechanical lock is dex (I agree the knowledge of how to do things is proficiency), if a PC wants to run a long distance (say run 10 miles in under an hour) I might ask for an athletics (con) check, a barbarian picking up an NPC and holding him over the edge of a cliff while demanding to be told where the BBEG is will be asked to roll an intimidation (str), but 95% of ability checks use the standard abilitiy.
The conclusion from the above is PCs will prioritse theit class pimary stat(s) ad then Con dex and Wis. Some players will not want to dump charisma for roll play reasons. This leaves Str and Int being dumped by those PCs that do not have them as their primary class stats. Strength is still very important for the majority of Paladins and fighters and Barbs for the rest dumping it is a risk but less of a risk than dumping something else (while being as effective as possible by maxing their primary stats). I had a PC that I had dumped strenth that spent a whole combat stuck in an entangle dumping Int can be bad if you encounter a mind flayer but that is the choices you have to make when creating a character.
your assumptions here are blatant disrespect of my opinion...
Except this wasn’t you expressing an opinion, you expressed what you thought was fact. You even said having a higher dex meant that you got more attacks. You also made wide ranging statements about how other gaming groups play and interpret rules without having ever played in those groups. That again is not opinion. Your statements quite simply were wrong. And you getting upset about me telling you that you are wrong won’t change that.
your assumptions here are blatant disrespect of my opinion...
Except this wasn’t you expressing an opinion, you expressed what you thought was fact. You even said having a higher dex meant that you got more attacks. You also made wide ranging statements about how other gaming groups play and interpret rules without having ever played in those groups. That again is not opinion. Your statements quite simply were wrong. And you getting upset about me telling you that you are wrong won’t change that
higher dex does make more attacks... but reguardless of what i will say you will just say i didn't say anything... because since the beginning you are just ignoring my posts entirely... as i said, again and again.. i'm talking about the bonus action dual wielding which once you get finesse weapons allows you to just drop strength entirely. gaining even more benefit and thus making people think dexterity is better. but reality is... you dont need to go finesse... strength dual wielding is a reality as well. but somehow the only ones who ever dual wields are the dexterity people !!! but think whatever you want... its a free world.
@DnDPaladin it doesn't seem like you are arguing that Str IS good, but more that you WISH it was better. And you can't just pick and choose which spells you look at to determine which ones require which saving throws. Dexterity is your ability to move quickly, so is THE skill for dodging things. It is why Dex is used to calculate AC and whenever you dodge an AoE.
Using Int for all checks "because you need to know HOW to do things" is patently absurd. This would mean that your noodle-armed (Str 8), 110-year old (Dex 10) wizard can climb the wall better than the Barbarian with a grip strength that can crush rocks or the Monk who can do standing double backflips. Knowledge is nothing without ability; you cannot learn to swim no matter how many books you read or videos you watch, you have to actually jump in the water.
Str has its place outside of combat as well. I am currently in a party of a Warlock, Cleric, Rogue, Ranger, and Artificer. Last session we came across a door barred from the other side. Due to our strongest character having a +1 in Str, it was a significant challenge for us. The Hexblade Warlock hacked at the door until we opened up a large enough gap that the Artificer was able to cast Mage Hand through to move the bar. Having a Barbarian or Fighter with high Str would have made that much simpler.
And no, wielding two short swords does not give you 2d6 damage. It gives you 1d6+Dex/Str with the option to use your bonus action to deal another 1d6 (no mod). So the Str build comes out ahead as it uses a single action and can use the BA for anything else. If you get into Extra Attack, two short swords falls off even more. The Greatsword now deals 4d6+(Str x 2) with a single action, while two short swords now deals 3d6+(Str/Dex x 2) using both your action and bonus action. And Dex doesn't perform any better than Str using two short swords. Not unless your Dex score is better than your Str.
No i'm not... i do think strength has all it needs to be "stronger then you think it is" thats , from the get go all i am saying... that said... how one can change something in order to make even better is always a something of interest. because nothing is perfect, not even dexterity. the how one can make strength better is part of the question still. but i do not think it is necessary. i do try to add more damage to it... the reason being... i looked at everything else.. making intimidation a strength based check, making strength give more hp, making strength gives resistance. i tryed pretty much everything people on the net suggested... none of it made sense, none of it made strength that much better. if anything all of these only makes other stats less good. in the end, the only thing i could make use of... was for it to deal more damage like it was in 3E. if none of the homebrew i could test actually are worth it... doesn't that means strength is already a strong stat ? there is a reason why nobody actually homebrew intelligence and strength yet claims they are dump stats. its because when they try to think of something else... it doesn't feel right. that means the thing are already something in themselves !
i agree that dexterity is about dodging... i never contested that. but so many spells requires dodging... but honestly... makes no sense in the context... exemples... Fireball and fairy fire. pretty much all AOE with big radius... say your rogue is in the middle of the fireball. which does 20 feet. where did he hide to avoid it ? why does he takes half damage if he succeed and succeed was to dodge it ? not counting rogue abilities here. dodging something like sacred flame... i get it... but fireball... that would make more sense for it to be constitution based ! so your rogue dodges a fireball yet stays in his place in the middle of the inferno in a spell that encompasses every single bit of space in the area. that's what i mean by spells makes no sense. dodging something small makes sense for dexteroty to be used... dodging something that has a very wide radius doesn't ! that's why i said what i said. there is also the point that... again... as i said... only about 15 spells are actually ever used out of 350... if you were say in your car and you were just 2 people... would you say that everyone are never more then 2 people in their car ? even though the maximum of a car could be up to 7 ? its the same here... its not because everyone says it can have a maximum of, that everybody uses them all. overall... people only look at the abusive spells and never look back. which makes the thing much less then what you described. the last exemple i could give you is... here on DDB... the forum has over 200k people having an account... but yet less then 1% of this actually uses the forum. should we still count the maximum number just because thats the thing, even though we know for sure that not all of it is used at all time ? there is a balance here.
last thing you said... sorry but, adding more attacks just plainly add more damage in the end. nobody counts the chances of hitting, we just talk as if they hit. let's take your idea there...
level 3 fighter using a great sword. with a maximum strength of 18. the enemy has an AC of 15. your fighter has a bonus to hit of +6. giving him a chance to hit of 11 out of 20 chances of hitting the enemy. if he hits... he deals 11 (2d6+4) damage. average of 6 being 3.5. the same fighter with 18 dex and two shortswords... giving him a chance to hit of 11 out of 20. if he hits, he does 7 (1d6+4) damage... then gets another chance of hitting for another 1d6. making it a total of 10 average damage. you are right... its 1 point down... but... heres where the thing goes away in favor of dex... you had two chances at hitting the enemy while that two-handed sword fighter had only one. anybody, in a heartbeat would lower their damage a bit if they make sure to actually hit. just look at all those wizard and their cantrips... same with warlocks... why isn't eldritch blast equal to a crossbow who deals the same thing... because it has numerous attacks... its not just hit or miss. that's also why rogues dual wields... two chances at hitting sneak attack is better then having a single one.
thats also why a barbarian dexterity is lacking... because rage works on strength weapon only. and reckless attack makes up for the numerous rolls... thats why you'll rarely see a dexterity barbarian. in the end, barbarian prooves one thing to us... strength can do it too as long as the abilities follow up. this is also why barbarians go frenzy still... having another attack just makes things much better. yes you lose that bonus action for something else... but what else can a fighter and a barbarian use bonus actions on ? almost nothing... barb rages.. thats it... fighters second wind.. thats it... both of them are pretty much once and done. so its not worth it for them both to not use it for attack if they can. even a wizard could benefit from having something to do as bonus actions... i really wish more cantrips existed as bonus actions.
last but not least... you say again, that damage wise shortswords go down... yes they do... but... again... thats 3 attacks, not 2. thats 1 more chance at actually hitting a target... the bell curve of dice rolled shows us that we have much more chances at hitting and dealing damage with 3 dice then i would with only 2. so again... to deal damage, that 2-handed sword fighter loses chances at dealing damage for sake of doing more damage. while that dex fighter preffer to deal less, but make sure to hit and deal damage. mathematically speaking, the number of attacks is what matters, not the damage dealt. the more attacks, the better at dealing damage you are, because you make sure to deal damage every rounds... unlike those damage dealers who just wait for the right moment but might miss it once in a while.
say we do 2 attack with greatsword... say we do 3 attacks with short sword... we miss 1 attack on both... that great sword now deals 11 (2d6+4) that shortsword now deals 14 (2d6+8) or if we miss the first attack and deal damage on bonus attack... 10 (2d6+4) now depending on which attack miss, the shortsword guy is in front... now let's say the fighter misses both attacks... greatsword = 0 damage... shortsword = 3 (1d6) if the bonus action is the one... or 7 (1d6+4) if its a regular attack that hits... who, again pulls in front ? again the shortswords pulls up front again. sure they can miss all their attacks... but out of 3 dice, there is much more chance of you hitting at least once. that is steady damage and people preffer steady damage instead of big spikes.
i do like big spikes... but with my luck, they happen not so often... i think strength is still a good thing... because dual wielding is not limited to dexterity. and with a good feat, dual wielding makes it better and pulls in front of 2-handers... not to mention the fighting style. which also pulls the dual wielding in front of 2-handers... though i will say that with my luck rerolling 1s and 2s do make a difference. not counting luck it is not all that big of a deal mathematically... because the chances of hitting another 1s and 2s is still there.
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I can't find the referance but Fireball is intentionally more powerful than other instantanious damage dealing spells and RAW it requires a dex save. I wouldn't say it is a must at level 5 (and some classes can't get it anyway). Counterspell, dispel magic, spirtit Guardians, fear, slow hypnotic pattern, revivify and tiny hut are all top tier 3rd level spells along with fireball. Notice that in that list all the other spells that require a spell require wis saves, generally speaking while dex saves are the most common (not just from spells) wis saves are generally the ones you want ot save most from. Strength saves are much rarer than dex saves but are no more potent. (Charisma and int saves are rareer than even strength saves but the results of failing can be catastrophic, the last PC death in a game I was in was due to havnig his brain sucked out by a mind flayer)
I agree some DMs allow Dex to be used where it probably shouldn't be for example replacing an athletics check with acrobatics but rules as written Dex saves are far more important than strength.
All abilities are of use in the game and I have not encountered a DM that makes any completely useless. Having said that PCs build there PC abilitity scores around what they will use most. Cless specific uses the order is Generally tas given below (A/B means A and B is either order):
Barb: Str, Con, Dex
Fighter: Str, OR Dex
Rogue: Dex
Monk: Dex, Wis,
Paladin: Str/Cha OR (less frequently) Dex/Cha
Ranger: Dex, Wis OR Str , Wis
Artificer: Int often is a secondary stat depending on build)
Bard: Cha
Sorcerer: Cha
Warlock: Cha
Druid: Wis
Cleric: Wis (smoetimes with dex or str as a secondary ability)
Wizard: Int.
Con is important for all characters for hit points and it is an important save (for spell casters it is the most important save by a long way but it is common even outside of concentration checks)
Dex is an important stat for all character for AC (unless they have heavy armor) initiative and it is an important save, depending on the DM and the party everyone have decent stealth can also be important
Wisdom Is an important save, and perception is the most important skill (insight is also very useful even without being a lie detector)
Charisma: It is important to have one person to act as a face. Some players feel if they have ideas about what to say to NPCs they don't want to be stopped because their players lack of charisma means they would be ignored or misinterpreted.
Int: Inportant for several very important skills but generally only need one person to make those checks.
Str: One moderately important skill.
I know you can switch the ability used for a skill check but I think that should be circumstantial, picking a runic lock might require int but a mechanical lock is dex (I agree the knowledge of how to do things is proficiency), if a PC wants to run a long distance (say run 10 miles in under an hour) I might ask for an athletics (con) check, a barbarian picking up an NPC and holding him over the edge of a cliff while demanding to be told where the BBEG is will be asked to roll an intimidation (str), but 95% of ability checks use the standard abilitiy.
The conclusion from the above is PCs will prioritse theit class pimary stat(s) ad then Con dex and Wis. Some players will not want to dump charisma for roll play reasons. This leaves Str and Int being dumped by those PCs that do not have them as their primary class stats. Strength is still very important for the majority of Paladins and fighters and Barbs for the rest dumping it is a risk but less of a risk than dumping something else (while being as effective as possible by maxing their primary stats). I had a PC that I had dumped strenth that spent a whole combat stuck in an entangle dumping Int can be bad if you encounter a mind flayer but that is the choices you have to make when creating a character.
fireball has always been pretty strong since first edition and basic... so left it at that... but we're not speaking of the damage dealing here, but the saves it should have... you cna read my answer above about it...
its true that "mostly" all checks required are the default ones... btu isn't that becoming metagaming then ? your players makes their choice based on what the DM will ask for. doesn't that makes them metagame right away ? making sure their characters can and will succeed where the DM wants you not ? i have dumped wisdom a few times... its really fun playing those. i dumped charisma too, i dumped constitution with a wizard once.... oh boy so much fun there... being a real glass canon was so much fun and so much role play ! one of my friend never regretted having strength on his wizard necromancer after the rest of the party forbid him of ever raising undeads... he just took a greatsword and slashed away. helped by spells... it was fun still for him.
if i follow your reasoning, then nobody will ever have strength on their characters. then why is the stats even warranted to be around ? just saying... if a stat is assuredly a dump stat, then that means that stat is useless and if everyone thinks the stat is a dump stat in 95% of the cases... then its time the stat gets removed from the game entirely and be given to say constitution. i mean constitution could take it over.
as a side note... why are concentration check a constitution check ? i understand the physical aspect of damage... but isn't it your intellect and your ability to focus in dire need that helps you concentrate through your wounds ? i never understood that one...
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Because as Mike Tyson once said, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." Concentration saves are about having the physical fortitude to be able to take a hit and keep your focus and wits about you.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
which once you get finesse weapons allows you to just drop strength entirely.
Two-weapon fighting is based on light, not finesse.
level 3 fighter using a great sword. with a maximum strength of 18. the enemy has an AC of 15.
your fighter has a bonus to hit of +6. giving him a chance to hit of 11 out of 20 chances of hitting the enemy. if he hits... he deals 11 (2d6+4) damage. average of 6 being 3.5.
If you have a +6 to hit and are trying to hit AC 15, you hit on a 9 or more, which means you miss on 8 or less. If you have 8 chances out of 20 to miss, that means you have 12 out of 20 to hit.
In this case, your average damage will be 7*.65+4*.6 (because only the dice can crit), which is a sum of 6.95.
the same fighter with 18 dex and two shortswords...
No, you're moving the goalposts. You are claiming that 18 dex with 2 shortswords is more attacks than 18 str with 2 shortswords. This is false, and they will deal the same damage across the same number of attacks.
giving him a chance to hit of 11 out of 20.
Still 12, not 11 (13 to account for crit chance on the dice, stays 12 for the ability modifier).
if he hits, he does 7 (1d6+4) damage... then gets another chance of hitting for another 1d6. making it a total of 10 average damage.
The average in this case is identical to a greatsword; I'm frankly not exactly certain which part of the math you're mistaking, but the damage is still 2 instances of a d6 and one instance of a +4, so your average output in your example is still 6.95 damage, no change.
you are right... its 1 point down... but... heres where the thing goes away in favor of dex... you had two chances at hitting the enemy while that two-handed sword fighter had only one.
You could do this with strength, as I said, but FYI, what you're talking about is that the short sword user has less variance and what you're ignoring is that the short swords will do less damage if confronted with Damage Reduction or a Damage Threshold. Also generally regarded as important is that you're ignoring the GWM feat.
anybody, in a heartbeat would lower their damage a bit if they make sure to actually hit.
It is absolutely true that the 2 short swords will hit more often (just for less damage per hit), but I'm not following what value you are placing on hitting more often. For the same average, less variance is always good, but that has to do with being able to predict more or less how your turn will go before you attempt it.
just look at all those wizard and their cantrips... same with warlocks... why isn't eldritch blast equal to a crossbow who deals the same thing... because it has numerous attacks... its not just hit or miss.
Eldritch Blast hits exactly as hard as a heavy crossbow, just without needing a feat to do it many times. Didn't you just claim you were talking about giving up damage for accuracy? Why don't you give an example of that?
that's also why rogues dual wields... two chances at hitting sneak attack is better then having a single one.
That's true, but the math on its damage is involved. Rogue DPR doesn't scale with attacks per round in a way most people find intuitive.
thats also why a barbarian dexterity is lacking... because rage works on strength weapon only. and reckless attack makes up for the numerous rolls... thats why you'll rarely see a dexterity barbarian. in the end, barbarian prooves one thing to us... strength can do it too as long as the abilities follow up.
As you just admitted, the primary reason Barbarians lean into Strength is because they are forced to by the restrictions on their core abilities.
this is also why barbarians go frenzy still...
You mean the worst barbarian subclass (and being worse than battlerager is saying something) and a very serious contender for being the worst subclass in the game?
having another attack just makes things much better. yes you lose that bonus action for something else... but what else can a fighter and a barbarian use bonus actions on ? almost nothing... barb rages.. thats it... fighters second wind.. thats it... both of them are pretty much once and done.
CBE and PAM are the general answer for fighters. For Barbarians, it's trickier, because your Rage costs a BA and you know you want it available every fight even if you don't use it, so it's risky business leaning too hard into your BAs, but at very low levels Barbarians are the best dual wielders in the game because, once again, dual wielding works just fine with Strength (Rage damage applies to your bonus action twf attack, which is why they're so good at it without a fighting style).
say we do 2 attack with greatsword...
say we do 3 attacks with short sword... we miss 1 attack on both... that great sword now deals 11 (2d6+4) that shortsword now deals 14 (2d6+8) or if we miss the first attack and deal damage on bonus attack... 10 (2d6+4) now depending on which attack miss, the shortsword guy is in front... now let's say the fighter misses both attacks... greatsword = 0 damage... shortsword = 3 (1d6) if the bonus action is the one... or 7 (1d6+4) if its a regular attack that hits...
That's why we calculate average output including accuracy. If you do the math right on your probability you'll account for all of this.
i think strength is still a good thing... because dual wielding is not limited to dexterity. and with a good feat, dual wielding makes it better and pulls in front of 2-handers...
The currently existing feats will reward you very heavily for avoiding TWF in favor of wielding a glaive.
not to mention the fighting style. which also pulls the dual wielding in front of 2-handers...
That's factual, in terms of melee - the GWF style, assuming you use the SAC's version of it rather than the PHB's, is easily the worst in the game. However, anyone can swap to the Defense fighting style if they have a style to burn and want to take a good one.
Quote “higher dex does make more attacks... but reguardless of what i will say you will just say i didn't say anything... because since the beginning you are just ignoring my posts entirely...”
No Dex absolutely does not give you more attacks. The extra attack feature is a class feature which fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians and some subclasses of bard, warlock and wizard get when they get to a specific level. Their dex score has nothing to do with it. Every single pc gets to use the two weapon fighting rules to make an extra attack using their bonus action subject to those rules. It doesn’t matter if they have a strength of 20 and a dex of 4 or a strength of 2 and a dex of 20. Their score in either stat is utter irrelevant for the extra attack feature. The reason that the majority of dual wielders choose dex over strength is because without investing in a fighting style and a feat you can only use light weapons - most of which are finesse. So it makes sense.I’m not ignoring your posts - in fact I picked your post apart point by point. And again the fact you don’t like that I have called you out for being completely wrong doesn’t change that you are wrong. You have completely made things up to suit you such as the number of spells that use different stats for saving throws, or trying to suggest that all skills should use the intelligence stat. You are just simply making stuff up at this point and I am not going to waste any more time on this.
fireball has always been pretty strong since first edition and basic... so left it at that... but we're not speaking of the damage dealing here, but the saves it should have... you cna read my answer above about it...
its true that "mostly" all checks required are the default ones... btu isn't that becoming metagaming then ? your players makes their choice based on what the DM will ask for. doesn't that makes them metagame right away ? making sure their characters can and will succeed where the DM wants you not ? i have dumped wisdom a few times... its really fun playing those. i dumped charisma too, i dumped constitution with a wizard once.... oh boy so much fun there... being a real glass canon was so much fun and so much role play ! one of my friend never regretted having strength on his wizard necromancer after the rest of the party forbid him of ever raising undeads... he just took a greatsword and slashed away. helped by spells... it was fun still for him.
if i follow your reasoning, then nobody will ever have strength on their characters. then why is the stats even warranted to be around ? just saying... if a stat is assuredly a dump stat, then that means that stat is useless and if everyone thinks the stat is a dump stat in 95% of the cases... then its time the stat gets removed from the game entirely and be given to say constitution. i mean constitution could take it over.
as a side note... why are concentration check a constitution check ? i understand the physical aspect of damage... but isn't it your intellect and your ability to focus in dire need that helps you concentrate through your wounds ? i never understood that one...
This is tips and tactics not general or homebrew so I am not going to go into detail on what D&D rules should be changed, there are some saves which could be something else but being able to maintain concentration when you get hurt has nothing to do with your book knowledge and con is probably the best check.
While strength might be less important than dex for most characters it should absolutely be part of the game as I said for many characters it is their primary stat. Dumping a stat creates a weakness and that is one of the things that makes the great. If strength did not exist a low strength character would not need to worry about entangle spells and that would be a bad thing.
I do not thing optimisation, within reason is metagaming. A wizard with low strength is going to have issues when strength is required, a wizard with low dex is going to have issues when dex is required. You can make a case that a low dex wizard would die very quickly adventuring and would therefore avoid such dangerous activities, but even 8f you do not therevis nothing wrong with choosing to play the more effective character. (Metagaming does potentially come in when a paladin makes a pact with a mysterious entity with the shadow fell so they can wield a sword using their force of personality and then goes back to devoting themselves to their oath as if the pact means nothing).
quidraco.... you are nitpicking for sake of nitpicking... go ahead explain to me how dexterity and strength are the same in dual wielding when you have the choice of dumping strength and take dexterity AND COMP^LETELY DUMP DEX by having finesse weapons ? apparently you don't understand at all what i say, thus im not answering you more... if you wanna think you won, go ahead, i dont care... here the goal, as was said numerous times... is to tell why people uses dexterity to make more attacks. yet you literally just nitpicks and completely ignore what i say for sake of being nit picky...
fireball has always been pretty strong since first edition and basic... so left it at that... but we're not speaking of the damage dealing here, but the saves it should have... you cna read my answer above about it...
its true that "mostly" all checks required are the default ones... btu isn't that becoming metagaming then ? your players makes their choice based on what the DM will ask for. doesn't that makes them metagame right away ? making sure their characters can and will succeed where the DM wants you not ? i have dumped wisdom a few times... its really fun playing those. i dumped charisma too, i dumped constitution with a wizard once.... oh boy so much fun there... being a real glass canon was so much fun and so much role play ! one of my friend never regretted having strength on his wizard necromancer after the rest of the party forbid him of ever raising undeads... he just took a greatsword and slashed away. helped by spells... it was fun still for him.
if i follow your reasoning, then nobody will ever have strength on their characters. then why is the stats even warranted to be around ? just saying... if a stat is assuredly a dump stat, then that means that stat is useless and if everyone thinks the stat is a dump stat in 95% of the cases... then its time the stat gets removed from the game entirely and be given to say constitution. i mean constitution could take it over.
as a side note... why are concentration check a constitution check ? i understand the physical aspect of damage... but isn't it your intellect and your ability to focus in dire need that helps you concentrate through your wounds ? i never understood that one...
This is tips and tactics not general or homebrew so I am not going to go into detail on what D&D rules should be changed, there are some saves which could be something else but being able to maintain concentration when you get hurt has nothing to do with your book knowledge and con is probably the best check.
While strength might be less important than dex for most characters it should absolutely be part of the game as I said for many characters it is their primary stat. Dumping a stat creates a weakness and that is one of the things that makes the great. If strength did not exist a low strength character would not need to worry about entangle spells and that would be a bad thing.
I do not thing optimisation, within reason is metagaming. A wizard with low strength is going to have issues when strength is required, a wizard with low dex is going to have issues when dex is required. You can make a case that a low dex wizard would die very quickly adventuring and would therefore avoid such dangerous activities, but even 8f you do not therevis nothing wrong with choosing to play the more effective character. (Metagaming does potentially come in when a paladin makes a pact with a mysterious entity with the shadow fell so they can wield a sword using their force of personality and then goes back to devoting themselves to their oath as if the pact means nothing).
i really like how you see things... but i have to ask... isn't it metagaming as i said before... if the players dump stats because they know its not gonna be used much ? i mean... how often do you see people dump wisdom or dex ? that's what i mean, at that point you are not creating a charcater for the character, you are building the charcater to resist what you know is in the monster manual. which your character might not even know what a dinosaur is. they might not even know what a vampire is. they might not even know what a mind flayer is. yet they are prepared for it since level 1.
i like the idea of a character weak point being actually usefull... a wizard who fears entangle... i do not know any of them considering they have tons of other options for moving without using speeds. i do not know any wizard ever dumping dex. though i have made wizards with only 13 intelligence. they are rare cases. i dont have a problem with people min maxing... i do it too... but i love having real characters with real problems, thats why i do not hesitate to dump good stats. yes i did make a barbarian minotaur who had 6 in wisdom... it was a blast, but every wizards and control freak made me fight my pears... it was their problem to deal with. my barb was pretty suicidal though. reckless attack with 8 people around me... yup thats asking for death.
all that said... wizards with low dexterity do not have a problem against dex saves... because they are gonna be mostly out of reach. chances are that your wizard wont be wi the group. so those dex saves are gonna be rare. the same argument can be said about any range characters.
my biggest problem are people saying strength is useless in the game, hence why everyone dumps it. including myself... though i dont do it cause i think its useless. on the contrary i think its crucial. but... i must admit that based on DMs... strength might never be anything. the same way perception is like the most abused skill. it shouldn'T be, but DMs tends to ask for checks every two steps. right now, my way of solving that problem, is to not ask for checks and let the players ask for checks themselves. this works like a charm. when players wants to look for something, they tell you. if they don't then they dont look. you'd be surprised the number of times a player ask you for a check compared to how often a dm does it. much more surprises this way. that said, i do still ask for checks when i know the player are carefull and have a chance at spotting something.
an exemple of abused checks... perception by sight ! i play a cat which has advantage on smell perception checks... out of a whole year of playing... this was used 2 times and counting... its ridiculous how much DMs just play basic perception = sight !
i think strength has the same problem... DMs just dont use it too often when they should.
i think the problem lie there.
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There's a very large distinction between people calling Strength a weak stat (which I've seen many people do) and people calling it a useless stat (which I have yet to see).
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There's a very large distinction between people calling Strength a weak stat (which I've seen many people do) and people calling it a useless stat (which I have yet to see).
^this. Strength can be weak, but just because you're DM doesn't use it a lot doesn't mean all DM's don't. Dexterity simply makes mechanical sense for the type of skill it is. The reason its uses so many skills is that it simply is better than strength irl in some ways. In the same way, wisdom can be better than intelligence, as wisdom is applied knowledge. Although Dex is not necessarily applied strength, that is similar to the essence of it. Also, @DndPaladin, you seem to be confusing opinions and experiences with facts. YOUR table and YOUR Dm's are not indicative of everybody's. While you've raised some good questions, you have not given concrete answers, and responded condescendingly to all real answers by simply restating opinion.
Regarding jumping spell casters often have other options such as misty step. Otherwise if one person can jump accross / up they can uaually get the rest of the party over. For example by using a rope.
And climbing a rope requires Strength.
If your carrying capacity is less than your own body+equipment weight then you can't climb that rope (think of the weedy kids being yelled at by the gym teacher at school :-) and the strong characters now have to lift you up, meaning that getting a party up a wall becomes a half-hour activity, with all of the associated wandering monster checks.
Not that this is a bad thing, mind you. The mage relies on the party for getting up cliffs, in return the party relies on the mage to set all the goblins on fire and/or asleep.
But I agree with the OP. If the game enforces encumbrance, climbing and jumping then STR becomes much more important. It's almost like the rules intended it this way…
quidraco.... you are nitpicking for sake of nitpicking... go ahead explain to me how dexterity and strength are the same in dual wielding when you have the choice of dumping strength and take dexterity AND COMP^LETELY DUMP DEX by having finesse weapons ? apparently you don't understand at all what i say, thus im not answering you more... if you wanna think you won, go ahead, i dont care... here the goal, as was said numerous times... is to tell why people uses dexterity to make more attacks. yet you literally just nitpicks and completely ignore what i say for sake of being nit picky...
You keep insisting that having a high dex lets you make more attacks, but absolutely nowhere in the rule book does it say that. So please , for the love of god. Quote the rule that you think says that. Give the book name and page number.
Regarding jumping spell casters often have other options such as misty step. Otherwise if one person can jump accross / up they can uaually get the rest of the party over. For example by using a rope.
And climbing a rope requires Strength.
If your carrying capacity is less than your own body+equipment weight then you can't climb that rope
Is that a rule? If so when did it come in? if it was before MMotM don't tell my DM.
I have a Tortle in a campaign that I have been playing for about a year, Legacy tortle average weight is 450lb. With standard encumberance anything weighing over 300lb would be unable to climb a rope. Our party also has a warforged who would face the same predicament.
Even if you are looking at comparing it to the real world, the average Americam male wieighs just under 200lb so would need a strength of 14 to climb a rope so the large majority of the population would be unable to not just the weedy kids.
Regarding jumping spell casters often have other options such as misty step. Otherwise if one person can jump accross / up they can uaually get the rest of the party over. For example by using a rope.
And climbing a rope requires Strength.
If your carrying capacity is less than your own body+equipment weight then you can't climb that rope
Is that a rule? If so when did it come in? if it was before MMotM don't tell my DM.
I have a Tortle in a campaign that I have been playing for about a year, Legacy tortle average weight is 450lb. With standard encumberance anything weighing over 300lb would be unable to climb a rope. Our party also has a warforged who would face the same predicament.
Even if you are looking at comparing it to the real world, the average Americam male wieighs just under 200lb so would need a strength of 14 to climb a rope so the large majority of the population would be unable to not just the weedy kids.
It's not a rule, all you need to climb successfully is an athletics check.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
as a side note... why are concentration check a constitution check ? i understand the physical aspect of damage... but isn't it your intellect and your ability to focus in dire need that helps you concentrate through your wounds ? i never understood that one...
Dude, you ever been in a situation that was physically exhausting AND mentally taxing? Being military I can tell you that no matter how smart or clever you are, if your body isn't up to task you fall. I'm not just talking injury either, things like hunger and sleep depravation throw off focus drastically. There's a reason you have to take some kind of physical fitness assessment routinely and not an IQ test. CON saves for CONcentration make perfect sense.
quidraco.... you are nitpicking for sake of nitpicking... go ahead explain to me how dexterity and strength are the same in dual wielding when you have the choice of dumping strength and take dexterity AND COMP^LETELY DUMP DEX by having finesse weapons ? apparently you don't understand at all what i say, thus im not answering you more... if you wanna think you won, go ahead, i dont care... here the goal, as was said numerous times... is to tell why people uses dexterity to make more attacks. yet you literally just nitpicks and completely ignore what i say for sake of being nit picky...
You keep insisting that having a high dex lets you make more attacks, but absolutely nowhere in the rule book does it say that. So please , for the love of god. Quote the rule that you think says that. Give the book name and page number.
no there is no rules... as i said often and say it again and again i'm talking about dexterity dropping strength dual wielding...
but go ahead. i dare you to find any strength dual wielder ! if you can show me how often that happens i will agree that dex doesn'Mt do more attacks... but from what the multitude of characters on DDB shows... all dual wiedlers ends up being dex based. thus dexterity makes more attacks, because strength based dual wielder are very very low. but hey... continu to deform my words for the sake of your argument.
quidraco.... you are nitpicking for sake of nitpicking... go ahead explain to me how dexterity and strength are the same in dual wielding when you have the choice of dumping strength and take dexterity AND COMP^LETELY DUMP DEX by having finesse weapons ? apparently you don't understand at all what i say, thus im not answering you more... if you wanna think you won, go ahead, i dont care... here the goal, as was said numerous times... is to tell why people uses dexterity to make more attacks. yet you literally just nitpicks and completely ignore what i say for sake of being nit picky...
You keep insisting that having a high dex lets you make more attacks, but absolutely nowhere in the rule book does it say that. So please , for the love of god. Quote the rule that you think says that. Give the book name and page number.
I think he is confused that Finesse weapons can use Dex OR Str for the attack and damage rolls. Finesse does not require the use of Dex to attack, so a Str or Dex TWF will have the exact same number of attacks with the same modifier choices.
In all actuality, without the Dual Wielder Feat, Str TWF with two handaxes is the best. This gets you the 1d6 damage die and also includes the thrown property. The only other light, thrown weapon is the dagger, but it only has a 1d4 damage die.
dual wiedling even without the feats becomes better as more attacks happens. because the more attacks you have the better chances of doing steady damage you have. in the end... the dual wiedler feat is good, it really brings that damage up... but having more attacks is what makes dual wielding better. you just have to look at cantrips and why eldritch blast is so good. its not because it does 1d10, its because it has more attacks... if you have the choice between firebolt, a crossbow that deals 1d10. or eldritch blast, you will pick eldritch blast every times. cause of the number of attacks it does. the same is true for dual wiedling... if you weant steady damage, you will take dual wielding. this is also why people think champion fighter is bad even though it has much more chances at critting. because thats only spike damage... battlemaster is better at steady damage thus it gets chosen much more.
again dual wielding is so good in this edition... the lost of modifier isn't even a problem. and if you do feats as well, it gets better... i get that 2-hander can also have feats and stuff tagged to it... but the reality is... 2-handers are too spikey. they are literally hit or miss. except if you are a barb with reckless attack, that literally makes the build worth it. dual wielding is so much better for steady damage.
Regarding jumping spell casters often have other options such as misty step. Otherwise if one person can jump accross / up they can uaually get the rest of the party over. For example by using a rope.
And climbing a rope requires Strength.
If your carrying capacity is less than your own body+equipment weight then you can't climb that rope
Is that a rule? If so when did it come in? if it was before MMotM don't tell my DM.
I have a Tortle in a campaign that I have been playing for about a year, Legacy tortle average weight is 450lb. With standard encumberance anything weighing over 300lb would be unable to climb a rope. Our party also has a warforged who would face the same predicament.
Even if you are looking at comparing it to the real world, the average Americam male wieighs just under 200lb so would need a strength of 14 to climb a rope so the large majority of the population would be unable to not just the weedy kids.
It's not a rule, all you need to climb successfully is an athletics check.
there is literally no rules for climbing... the only rule that exists in 5th edition is that climbing takes twice your movement. they do say that the DM "may" require an athletic check. but its not necessary. so your tortle could literally weight 2 tons and yet still be able to climb by just spending half your movement. heres the ruling you are refering too...
Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling
Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. "At the DM’s option", climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
that said... encumberment rules aren't what you guys think they are and i will explain it below...
people think the strength score is the maximum you can hold on you at all time... no its not... thats not how encumberment works. basically, you can literally walk all day long as long as you don't go beyond that score multiplyed by 15 per size category starting with medium size. so say a fighter with 16 strength can walk all day long with a weighted backpack of 16 multiplied by 15. that's a good strength because your back pack can weight 240 pounds and not affect you at all.
the other thing people count is their own weight... thats not counted either... whats counted is only what you are wearing and what you are holding. so that tortle that weight 300 pounds... don't count on that strength check. because the legs of that tortle are used to lift that weight. so that weight is not counted.
last but not least... we're talking people who are overly trained. imagine army man used to walk all day long with a backpack weighting all that stuff. so overall... when it comes to lifting stuff... the thing is doubled... lifted stuff is not the same as walking with it. so while our fighter can walk all day long with 240 pounds, he can easily lift that tortle above his head by just lifting up to 480 pounds.
my gripe with people talking encumberment makes no sense, is that they think the single number is the all encompassing score... that's not true... the encumberment system has like 3 numbers to hold in your head. all based on your strength. that system makes things much more balanced. the same way people think magic is too powerful, but they simply dont use component and realise that its too easy to do stuff... but if you start counting materials like diamonds and pearls and the likes that many spells requires... you realise how hard it is to keep magic in tow. the same is true for encumberment... if you dont use it all, then of course it makes no sense.
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Sorry about the mistake.
Lord no need to flip your lid.
But I did mean the whole of the rogue class. All the subclasses are better with the dex score highest but they can all be run with it a bit lower.
I can't find the referance but Fireball is intentionally more powerful than other instantanious damage dealing spells and RAW it requires a dex save. I wouldn't say it is a must at level 5 (and some classes can't get it anyway). Counterspell, dispel magic, spirtit Guardians, fear, slow hypnotic pattern, revivify and tiny hut are all top tier 3rd level spells along with fireball. Notice that in that list all the other spells that require a spell require wis saves, generally speaking while dex saves are the most common (not just from spells) wis saves are generally the ones you want ot save most from. Strength saves are much rarer than dex saves but are no more potent. (Charisma and int saves are rareer than even strength saves but the results of failing can be catastrophic, the last PC death in a game I was in was due to havnig his brain sucked out by a mind flayer)
I agree some DMs allow Dex to be used where it probably shouldn't be for example replacing an athletics check with acrobatics but rules as written Dex saves are far more important than strength.
All abilities are of use in the game and I have not encountered a DM that makes any completely useless. Having said that PCs build there PC abilitity scores around what they will use most. Cless specific uses the order is Generally tas given below (A/B means A and B is either order):
Con is important for all characters for hit points and it is an important save (for spell casters it is the most important save by a long way but it is common even outside of concentration checks)
Dex is an important stat for all character for AC (unless they have heavy armor) initiative and it is an important save, depending on the DM and the party everyone have decent stealth can also be important
Wisdom Is an important save, and perception is the most important skill (insight is also very useful even without being a lie detector)
Charisma: It is important to have one person to act as a face. Some players feel if they have ideas about what to say to NPCs they don't want to be stopped because their players lack of charisma means they would be ignored or misinterpreted.
Int: Inportant for several very important skills but generally only need one person to make those checks.
Str: One moderately important skill.
I know you can switch the ability used for a skill check but I think that should be circumstantial, picking a runic lock might require int but a mechanical lock is dex (I agree the knowledge of how to do things is proficiency), if a PC wants to run a long distance (say run 10 miles in under an hour) I might ask for an athletics (con) check, a barbarian picking up an NPC and holding him over the edge of a cliff while demanding to be told where the BBEG is will be asked to roll an intimidation (str), but 95% of ability checks use the standard abilitiy.
The conclusion from the above is PCs will prioritse theit class pimary stat(s) ad then Con dex and Wis. Some players will not want to dump charisma for roll play reasons. This leaves Str and Int being dumped by those PCs that do not have them as their primary class stats. Strength is still very important for the majority of Paladins and fighters and Barbs for the rest dumping it is a risk but less of a risk than dumping something else (while being as effective as possible by maxing their primary stats). I had a PC that I had dumped strenth that spent a whole combat stuck in an entangle dumping Int can be bad if you encounter a mind flayer but that is the choices you have to make when creating a character.
your assumptions here are blatant disrespect of my opinion...
Except this wasn’t you expressing an opinion, you expressed what you thought was fact. You even said having a higher dex meant that you got more attacks. You also made wide ranging statements about how other gaming groups play and interpret rules without having ever played in those groups. That again is not opinion. Your statements quite simply were wrong. And you getting upset about me telling you that you are wrong won’t change that.
higher dex does make more attacks... but reguardless of what i will say you will just say i didn't say anything... because since the beginning you are just ignoring my posts entirely...
as i said, again and again.. i'm talking about the bonus action dual wielding which once you get finesse weapons allows you to just drop strength entirely. gaining even more benefit and thus making people think dexterity is better. but reality is... you dont need to go finesse... strength dual wielding is a reality as well. but somehow the only ones who ever dual wields are the dexterity people !!! but think whatever you want... its a free world.
No i'm not... i do think strength has all it needs to be "stronger then you think it is" thats , from the get go all i am saying... that said... how one can change something in order to make even better is always a something of interest. because nothing is perfect, not even dexterity. the how one can make strength better is part of the question still. but i do not think it is necessary. i do try to add more damage to it... the reason being... i looked at everything else.. making intimidation a strength based check, making strength give more hp, making strength gives resistance. i tryed pretty much everything people on the net suggested... none of it made sense, none of it made strength that much better. if anything all of these only makes other stats less good. in the end, the only thing i could make use of... was for it to deal more damage like it was in 3E. if none of the homebrew i could test actually are worth it... doesn't that means strength is already a strong stat ? there is a reason why nobody actually homebrew intelligence and strength yet claims they are dump stats. its because when they try to think of something else... it doesn't feel right. that means the thing are already something in themselves !
i agree that dexterity is about dodging... i never contested that.
but so many spells requires dodging... but honestly... makes no sense in the context... exemples...
Fireball and fairy fire. pretty much all AOE with big radius... say your rogue is in the middle of the fireball. which does 20 feet. where did he hide to avoid it ? why does he takes half damage if he succeed and succeed was to dodge it ? not counting rogue abilities here. dodging something like sacred flame... i get it... but fireball... that would make more sense for it to be constitution based ! so your rogue dodges a fireball yet stays in his place in the middle of the inferno in a spell that encompasses every single bit of space in the area. that's what i mean by spells makes no sense. dodging something small makes sense for dexteroty to be used... dodging something that has a very wide radius doesn't ! that's why i said what i said. there is also the point that... again... as i said... only about 15 spells are actually ever used out of 350... if you were say in your car and you were just 2 people... would you say that everyone are never more then 2 people in their car ? even though the maximum of a car could be up to 7 ? its the same here... its not because everyone says it can have a maximum of, that everybody uses them all. overall... people only look at the abusive spells and never look back. which makes the thing much less then what you described. the last exemple i could give you is... here on DDB... the forum has over 200k people having an account... but yet less then 1% of this actually uses the forum. should we still count the maximum number just because thats the thing, even though we know for sure that not all of it is used at all time ? there is a balance here.
last thing you said...
sorry but, adding more attacks just plainly add more damage in the end.
nobody counts the chances of hitting, we just talk as if they hit.
let's take your idea there...
level 3 fighter using a great sword. with a maximum strength of 18. the enemy has an AC of 15.
your fighter has a bonus to hit of +6. giving him a chance to hit of 11 out of 20 chances of hitting the enemy. if he hits... he deals 11 (2d6+4) damage. average of 6 being 3.5.
the same fighter with 18 dex and two shortswords... giving him a chance to hit of 11 out of 20. if he hits, he does 7 (1d6+4) damage... then gets another chance of hitting for another 1d6. making it a total of 10 average damage. you are right... its 1 point down... but... heres where the thing goes away in favor of dex... you had two chances at hitting the enemy while that two-handed sword fighter had only one. anybody, in a heartbeat would lower their damage a bit if they make sure to actually hit. just look at all those wizard and their cantrips... same with warlocks... why isn't eldritch blast equal to a crossbow who deals the same thing... because it has numerous attacks... its not just hit or miss. that's also why rogues dual wields... two chances at hitting sneak attack is better then having a single one.
thats also why a barbarian dexterity is lacking... because rage works on strength weapon only. and reckless attack makes up for the numerous rolls... thats why you'll rarely see a dexterity barbarian. in the end, barbarian prooves one thing to us... strength can do it too as long as the abilities follow up. this is also why barbarians go frenzy still... having another attack just makes things much better. yes you lose that bonus action for something else... but what else can a fighter and a barbarian use bonus actions on ? almost nothing... barb rages.. thats it... fighters second wind.. thats it... both of them are pretty much once and done. so its not worth it for them both to not use it for attack if they can. even a wizard could benefit from having something to do as bonus actions... i really wish more cantrips existed as bonus actions.
last but not least... you say again, that damage wise shortswords go down... yes they do...
but... again... thats 3 attacks, not 2. thats 1 more chance at actually hitting a target... the bell curve of dice rolled shows us that we have much more chances at hitting and dealing damage with 3 dice then i would with only 2. so again... to deal damage, that 2-handed sword fighter loses chances at dealing damage for sake of doing more damage. while that dex fighter preffer to deal less, but make sure to hit and deal damage. mathematically speaking, the number of attacks is what matters, not the damage dealt. the more attacks, the better at dealing damage you are, because you make sure to deal damage every rounds... unlike those damage dealers who just wait for the right moment but might miss it once in a while.
say we do 2 attack with greatsword...
say we do 3 attacks with short sword...
we miss 1 attack on both...
that great sword now deals 11 (2d6+4)
that shortsword now deals 14 (2d6+8) or if we miss the first attack and deal damage on bonus attack... 10 (2d6+4)
now depending on which attack miss, the shortsword guy is in front...
now let's say the fighter misses both attacks...
greatsword = 0 damage...
shortsword = 3 (1d6) if the bonus action is the one... or 7 (1d6+4) if its a regular attack that hits...
who, again pulls in front ? again the shortswords pulls up front again.
sure they can miss all their attacks... but out of 3 dice, there is much more chance of you hitting at least once.
that is steady damage and people preffer steady damage instead of big spikes.
i do like big spikes... but with my luck, they happen not so often...
i think strength is still a good thing... because dual wielding is not limited to dexterity. and with a good feat, dual wielding makes it better and pulls in front of 2-handers... not to mention the fighting style. which also pulls the dual wielding in front of 2-handers... though i will say that with my luck rerolling 1s and 2s do make a difference. not counting luck it is not all that big of a deal mathematically... because the chances of hitting another 1s and 2s is still there.
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fireball has always been pretty strong since first edition and basic... so left it at that... but we're not speaking of the damage dealing here, but the saves it should have... you cna read my answer above about it...
its true that "mostly" all checks required are the default ones... btu isn't that becoming metagaming then ? your players makes their choice based on what the DM will ask for. doesn't that makes them metagame right away ? making sure their characters can and will succeed where the DM wants you not ? i have dumped wisdom a few times... its really fun playing those. i dumped charisma too, i dumped constitution with a wizard once.... oh boy so much fun there... being a real glass canon was so much fun and so much role play ! one of my friend never regretted having strength on his wizard necromancer after the rest of the party forbid him of ever raising undeads... he just took a greatsword and slashed away. helped by spells... it was fun still for him.
if i follow your reasoning, then nobody will ever have strength on their characters. then why is the stats even warranted to be around ?
just saying... if a stat is assuredly a dump stat, then that means that stat is useless and if everyone thinks the stat is a dump stat in 95% of the cases... then its time the stat gets removed from the game entirely and be given to say constitution. i mean constitution could take it over.
as a side note...
why are concentration check a constitution check ?
i understand the physical aspect of damage... but isn't it your intellect and your ability to focus in dire need that helps you concentrate through your wounds ?
i never understood that one...
DM of two gaming groups.
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Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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Because as Mike Tyson once said, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." Concentration saves are about having the physical fortitude to be able to take a hit and keep your focus and wits about you.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Citation needed.
Not Dex-based.
Two-weapon fighting is based on light, not finesse.
If you have a +6 to hit and are trying to hit AC 15, you hit on a 9 or more, which means you miss on 8 or less. If you have 8 chances out of 20 to miss, that means you have 12 out of 20 to hit.
In this case, your average damage will be 7*.65+4*.6 (because only the dice can crit), which is a sum of 6.95.
No, you're moving the goalposts. You are claiming that 18 dex with 2 shortswords is more attacks than 18 str with 2 shortswords. This is false, and they will deal the same damage across the same number of attacks.
Still 12, not 11 (13 to account for crit chance on the dice, stays 12 for the ability modifier).
The average in this case is identical to a greatsword; I'm frankly not exactly certain which part of the math you're mistaking, but the damage is still 2 instances of a d6 and one instance of a +4, so your average output in your example is still 6.95 damage, no change.
You could do this with strength, as I said, but FYI, what you're talking about is that the short sword user has less variance and what you're ignoring is that the short swords will do less damage if confronted with Damage Reduction or a Damage Threshold. Also generally regarded as important is that you're ignoring the GWM feat.
It is absolutely true that the 2 short swords will hit more often (just for less damage per hit), but I'm not following what value you are placing on hitting more often. For the same average, less variance is always good, but that has to do with being able to predict more or less how your turn will go before you attempt it.
Eldritch Blast hits exactly as hard as a heavy crossbow, just without needing a feat to do it many times. Didn't you just claim you were talking about giving up damage for accuracy? Why don't you give an example of that?
That's true, but the math on its damage is involved. Rogue DPR doesn't scale with attacks per round in a way most people find intuitive.
As you just admitted, the primary reason Barbarians lean into Strength is because they are forced to by the restrictions on their core abilities.
You mean the worst barbarian subclass (and being worse than battlerager is saying something) and a very serious contender for being the worst subclass in the game?
CBE and PAM are the general answer for fighters. For Barbarians, it's trickier, because your Rage costs a BA and you know you want it available every fight even if you don't use it, so it's risky business leaning too hard into your BAs, but at very low levels Barbarians are the best dual wielders in the game because, once again, dual wielding works just fine with Strength (Rage damage applies to your bonus action twf attack, which is why they're so good at it without a fighting style).
That's why we calculate average output including accuracy. If you do the math right on your probability you'll account for all of this.
The currently existing feats will reward you very heavily for avoiding TWF in favor of wielding a glaive.
That's factual, in terms of melee - the GWF style, assuming you use the SAC's version of it rather than the PHB's, is easily the worst in the game. However, anyone can swap to the Defense fighting style if they have a style to burn and want to take a good one.
Quote “higher dex does make more attacks... but reguardless of what i will say you will just say i didn't say anything... because since the beginning you are just ignoring my posts entirely...”
No Dex absolutely does not give you more attacks. The extra attack feature is a class feature which fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians and some subclasses of bard, warlock and wizard get when they get to a specific level. Their dex score has nothing to do with it. Every single pc gets to use the two weapon fighting rules to make an extra attack using their bonus action subject to those rules. It doesn’t matter if they have a strength of 20 and a dex of 4 or a strength of 2 and a dex of 20. Their score in either stat is utter irrelevant for the extra attack feature. The reason that the majority of dual wielders choose dex over strength is because without investing in a fighting style and a feat you can only use light weapons - most of which are finesse. So it makes sense.I’m not ignoring your posts - in fact I picked your post apart point by point. And again the fact you don’t like that I have called you out for being completely wrong doesn’t change that you are wrong. You have completely made things up to suit you such as the number of spells that use different stats for saving throws, or trying to suggest that all skills should use the intelligence stat. You are just simply making stuff up at this point and I am not going to waste any more time on this.
This is tips and tactics not general or homebrew so I am not going to go into detail on what D&D rules should be changed, there are some saves which could be something else but being able to maintain concentration when you get hurt has nothing to do with your book knowledge and con is probably the best check.
While strength might be less important than dex for most characters it should absolutely be part of the game as I said for many characters it is their primary stat. Dumping a stat creates a weakness and that is one of the things that makes the great. If strength did not exist a low strength character would not need to worry about entangle spells and that would be a bad thing.
I do not thing optimisation, within reason is metagaming. A wizard with low strength is going to have issues when strength is required, a wizard with low dex is going to have issues when dex is required. You can make a case that a low dex wizard would die very quickly adventuring and would therefore avoid such dangerous activities, but even 8f you do not therevis nothing wrong with choosing to play the more effective character. (Metagaming does potentially come in when a paladin makes a pact with a mysterious entity with the shadow fell so they can wield a sword using their force of personality and then goes back to devoting themselves to their oath as if the pact means nothing).
quidraco.... you are nitpicking for sake of nitpicking... go ahead explain to me how dexterity and strength are the same in dual wielding when you have the choice of dumping strength and take dexterity AND COMP^LETELY DUMP DEX by having finesse weapons ? apparently you don't understand at all what i say, thus im not answering you more... if you wanna think you won, go ahead, i dont care... here the goal, as was said numerous times... is to tell why people uses dexterity to make more attacks. yet you literally just nitpicks and completely ignore what i say for sake of being nit picky...
i really like how you see things... but i have to ask... isn't it metagaming as i said before... if the players dump stats because they know its not gonna be used much ? i mean... how often do you see people dump wisdom or dex ? that's what i mean, at that point you are not creating a charcater for the character, you are building the charcater to resist what you know is in the monster manual. which your character might not even know what a dinosaur is. they might not even know what a vampire is. they might not even know what a mind flayer is. yet they are prepared for it since level 1.
i like the idea of a character weak point being actually usefull... a wizard who fears entangle... i do not know any of them considering they have tons of other options for moving without using speeds. i do not know any wizard ever dumping dex. though i have made wizards with only 13 intelligence. they are rare cases. i dont have a problem with people min maxing... i do it too... but i love having real characters with real problems, thats why i do not hesitate to dump good stats. yes i did make a barbarian minotaur who had 6 in wisdom... it was a blast, but every wizards and control freak made me fight my pears... it was their problem to deal with. my barb was pretty suicidal though. reckless attack with 8 people around me... yup thats asking for death.
all that said... wizards with low dexterity do not have a problem against dex saves... because they are gonna be mostly out of reach. chances are that your wizard wont be wi the group. so those dex saves are gonna be rare. the same argument can be said about any range characters.
my biggest problem are people saying strength is useless in the game, hence why everyone dumps it. including myself... though i dont do it cause i think its useless. on the contrary i think its crucial. but... i must admit that based on DMs... strength might never be anything. the same way perception is like the most abused skill. it shouldn'T be, but DMs tends to ask for checks every two steps. right now, my way of solving that problem, is to not ask for checks and let the players ask for checks themselves. this works like a charm. when players wants to look for something, they tell you. if they don't then they dont look. you'd be surprised the number of times a player ask you for a check compared to how often a dm does it. much more surprises this way. that said, i do still ask for checks when i know the player are carefull and have a chance at spotting something.
an exemple of abused checks...
perception by sight !
i play a cat which has advantage on smell perception checks...
out of a whole year of playing... this was used 2 times and counting... its ridiculous how much DMs just play basic perception = sight !
i think strength has the same problem...
DMs just dont use it too often when they should.
i think the problem lie there.
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There's a very large distinction between people calling Strength a weak stat (which I've seen many people do) and people calling it a useless stat (which I have yet to see).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
^this. Strength can be weak, but just because you're DM doesn't use it a lot doesn't mean all DM's don't. Dexterity simply makes mechanical sense for the type of skill it is. The reason its uses so many skills is that it simply is better than strength irl in some ways. In the same way, wisdom can be better than intelligence, as wisdom is applied knowledge. Although Dex is not necessarily applied strength, that is similar to the essence of it. Also, @DndPaladin, you seem to be confusing opinions and experiences with facts. YOUR table and YOUR Dm's are not indicative of everybody's. While you've raised some good questions, you have not given concrete answers, and responded condescendingly to all real answers by simply restating opinion.
Updog
And climbing a rope requires Strength.
If your carrying capacity is less than your own body+equipment weight then you can't climb that rope (think of the weedy kids being yelled at by the gym teacher at school :-) and the strong characters now have to lift you up, meaning that getting a party up a wall becomes a half-hour activity, with all of the associated wandering monster checks.
Not that this is a bad thing, mind you. The mage relies on the party for getting up cliffs, in return the party relies on the mage to set all the goblins on fire and/or asleep.
But I agree with the OP. If the game enforces encumbrance, climbing and jumping then STR becomes much more important. It's almost like the rules intended it this way…
You keep insisting that having a high dex lets you make more attacks, but absolutely nowhere in the rule book does it say that. So please , for the love of god. Quote the rule that you think says that. Give the book name and page number.
Yes, very probably.
Is that a rule? If so when did it come in? if it was before MMotM don't tell my DM.
I have a Tortle in a campaign that I have been playing for about a year, Legacy tortle average weight is 450lb. With standard encumberance anything weighing over 300lb would be unable to climb a rope. Our party also has a warforged who would face the same predicament.
Even if you are looking at comparing it to the real world, the average Americam male wieighs just under 200lb so would need a strength of 14 to climb a rope so the large majority of the population would be unable to not just the weedy kids.
It's not a rule, all you need to climb successfully is an athletics check.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Encumbrance could be used in climbing but with a little cooperation any problems could be worked around.
The best climber goes up and pulls the next guy up. And so on. The athletics check could just make the climb or lift easier for those helping.
Climbing and athletics could conceivably be two separate skills. Just like athletics and acrobatics.
Dude, you ever been in a situation that was physically exhausting AND mentally taxing? Being military I can tell you that no matter how smart or clever you are, if your body isn't up to task you fall. I'm not just talking injury either, things like hunger and sleep depravation throw off focus drastically. There's a reason you have to take some kind of physical fitness assessment routinely and not an IQ test. CON saves for CONcentration make perfect sense.
no there is no rules... as i said often and say it again and again i'm talking about dexterity dropping strength dual wielding...
but go ahead. i dare you to find any strength dual wielder ! if you can show me how often that happens i will agree that dex doesn'Mt do more attacks... but from what the multitude of characters on DDB shows... all dual wiedlers ends up being dex based. thus dexterity makes more attacks, because strength based dual wielder are very very low. but hey... continu to deform my words for the sake of your argument.
dual wiedling even without the feats becomes better as more attacks happens. because the more attacks you have the better chances of doing steady damage you have. in the end... the dual wiedler feat is good, it really brings that damage up... but having more attacks is what makes dual wielding better. you just have to look at cantrips and why eldritch blast is so good. its not because it does 1d10, its because it has more attacks... if you have the choice between firebolt, a crossbow that deals 1d10. or eldritch blast, you will pick eldritch blast every times. cause of the number of attacks it does. the same is true for dual wiedling... if you weant steady damage, you will take dual wielding. this is also why people think champion fighter is bad even though it has much more chances at critting. because thats only spike damage... battlemaster is better at steady damage thus it gets chosen much more.
again dual wielding is so good in this edition... the lost of modifier isn't even a problem. and if you do feats as well, it gets better...
i get that 2-hander can also have feats and stuff tagged to it... but the reality is... 2-handers are too spikey. they are literally hit or miss. except if you are a barb with reckless attack, that literally makes the build worth it. dual wielding is so much better for steady damage.
there is literally no rules for climbing... the only rule that exists in 5th edition is that climbing takes twice your movement.
they do say that the DM "may" require an athletic check. but its not necessary. so your tortle could literally weight 2 tons and yet still be able to climb by just spending half your movement. heres the ruling you are refering too...
that said... encumberment rules aren't what you guys think they are and i will explain it below...
people think the strength score is the maximum you can hold on you at all time... no its not... thats not how encumberment works.
basically, you can literally walk all day long as long as you don't go beyond that score multiplyed by 15 per size category starting with medium size.
so say a fighter with 16 strength can walk all day long with a weighted backpack of 16 multiplied by 15. that's a good strength because your back pack can weight 240 pounds and not affect you at all.
the other thing people count is their own weight... thats not counted either... whats counted is only what you are wearing and what you are holding.
so that tortle that weight 300 pounds... don't count on that strength check. because the legs of that tortle are used to lift that weight. so that weight is not counted.
last but not least... we're talking people who are overly trained. imagine army man used to walk all day long with a backpack weighting all that stuff.
so overall... when it comes to lifting stuff... the thing is doubled... lifted stuff is not the same as walking with it. so while our fighter can walk all day long with 240 pounds, he can easily lift that tortle above his head by just lifting up to 480 pounds.
my gripe with people talking encumberment makes no sense, is that they think the single number is the all encompassing score... that's not true... the encumberment system has like 3 numbers to hold in your head. all based on your strength. that system makes things much more balanced. the same way people think magic is too powerful, but they simply dont use component and realise that its too easy to do stuff... but if you start counting materials like diamonds and pearls and the likes that many spells requires... you realise how hard it is to keep magic in tow. the same is true for encumberment... if you dont use it all, then of course it makes no sense.
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