You want a rule specifying that rules only do what they say they do?
I want a rule specifying that "vagueness" is a factor. I explained how the rules say what I keep saying that they say. You say that it isn't valid because it's too vague, and because implications are not RAW. I ask why. If inferences cannot be made about the meanings of words, then words can never have any meaning and RAW is completely nonexistent.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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The inferences could have been made pre-2020, but now the rules have been clarified.
Even before, it only hung on the vagueness around what an "attack with a weapon" is. Now we don't have that vagueness to allow for it to be a weapon attack.
So the spell says it makes a spell attack, and doesn't mention the mechanics of a weapon attack... so it doesn't do a weapon attack. That is crystal clear.
I think… 3 or 4 times between the 2 threads Kronzypants keeps quoting the same thing from the SAC and their errata about the melee attack unarmed strike blah blah blah. And using it for “equivalence”
but… if you scroll down a “little bit”. In the exact same SAC under spellcasting you see this:
Can you use green-flame blade and booming blade with Extra Attack, opportunity attacks, Sneak Attack, and other weapon attack options?
“Introduced in the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, the green-flame blade and booming blade spells pose a number of questions, because they each do something unusual: require you to make a me- lee attack with a weapon as part of the spell’s casting. First, each of these spells involves a normal melee weapon attack, not a spell attack, so you use whatever abil- ity modifier you normally use with the weapon. (A spell tells you if it includes a spell attack, and neither of these spells do.) For example, if you use a longsword with green-flame blade, you use your Strength modifier for the weapon’s at- tack and damage rolls. Second, neither green-flame blade nor booming blade works with Extra Attack or any other feature that requires the Attack action. Like other spells, these cantrips require the Cast a Spell action, not the Attack action, and they can’t be used to make an opportunity attack, unless a special fea- ture allows you to do so. Third, these weapon attacks work with Sneak Attack if they fulfill the normal requirements for that feature. For ex- ample, if you have the Sneak Attack feature and cast green- flame blade with a finesse weapon, you can deal Sneak At- tack damage to the target of the weapon attack if you have advantage on the attack roll and hit.”
the third point especially: if magic stone fulfills the normal requirements for the sharpshooter feature. You can use that feature. Plain and simple clearly stated right there. Equivalence.
Sure, but SAC made the official ruling that a weapon attack is an attack with a weapon. So an attack with a weapon is the definition of a weapon attack.
the terms are interchangeable, so there is no difference between what the third bullet point of sharpshooter and the first and second requires: a ranged weapon attack (aka an attack with a ranged weapon).
But Magic Stone is a spell attack, not a weapon attack.
continuing to distinguish a weapon attack from an attack with a weapon is just ignoring the rules as written. It’s not a valid argument.
It also made this OFFICIAL RULING:
Can you use green-flame blade and booming blade with Extra Attack, opportunity attacks, Sneak Attack, and other weapon attack options?
Introduced in the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, the green-flame blade and booming blade spells pose a number of questions, because they each do something unusual: require you to make a me- lee attack with a weapon as part of the spell’s casting. First, each of these spells involves a normal melee weapon attack, not a spell attack, so you use whatever abil- ity modifier you normally use with the weapon. (A spell tells you if it includes a spell attack, and neither of these spells do.) For example, if you use a longsword with green-flame blade, you use your Strength modifier for the weapon’s at- tack and damage rolls. Second, neither green-flame blade nor booming blade works with Extra Attack or any other feature that requires the Attack action. Like other spells, these cantrips require the Cast a Spell action, not the Attack action, and they can’t be used to make an opportunity attack, unless a special fea- ture allows you to do so. Third, these weapon attacks work with Sneak Attack if they fulfill the normal requirements for that feature. For ex- ample, if you have the Sneak Attack feature and cast green- flame blade with a finesse weapon, you can deal Sneak At- tack damage to the target of the weapon attack if you have advantage on the attack roll and hit.
——————————
again. The 3rd point there, much like sharpshooter’s 3rd point. Is relevant. As the 3rd point there, says if the requirements are fulfilled for sharpshooter, it still applies.
A 0-level commoner who has never even seen a sling before has exactly the same chance to hit as a 20th-level character proficient in slings if they both use magic stones from the same casting
That right there should tell you everything you need to know about whether it should be considered a 'weapon attack' or not, especially for the purpose of Sharpshooter. You may have "mastered ranged weapons and can make shots that others find impossible', but that's completely irrelevant when it comes to a magic stone. A toddler, or a monkey, is just as likely to hit with it as you are
But why stop at a magic stone/Sharpshooter combo? Talk your DM into letting you use your longbow as a club, then claim you can use Sharpshooter in melee if you cast shillelagh on it. I mean, you're making an attack with a ranged weapon you are proficient with...
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A 0-level commoner who has never even seen a sling before has exactly the same chance to hit as a 20th-level character proficient in slings if they both use magic stones from the same casting
That right there should tell you everything you need to know about whether it should be considered a 'weapon attack' or not, especially for the purpose of Sharpshooter. You may have "mastered ranged weapons and can make shots that others find impossible', but that's completely irrelevant when it comes to a magic stone. A toddler, or a monkey, is just as likely to hit with it as you are
But why stop at a magic stone/Sharpshooter combo? Talk your DM into letting you use your longbow as a club, then claim you can use Sharpshooter in melee if you cast shillelagh on it. I mean, you're making an attack with a ranged weapon you are proficient with...
This isn't really a RAI argument, but a RAW one. With that in mind, your argument isn't really much of an argument at all.
The use of shillelagh as you suggested wouldn't work because a longbow is still a longbow, even if you're using it as a club. Trying to cast shillelagh on it would fail.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
As per the Dev if you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise. So Sharpshooter wouldn't work when a longbow is used as an improvised weapon to make melee attack with.
Using magic stone to ranged make spell attack hurled with a sling never becomes weapon attack, it remains a spell attack, but qualify as an attack with a ranged weapon for the purposes of Sharpshooter or Sneak Attack as per the Dev own admission.
A 0-level commoner who has never even seen a sling before has exactly the same chance to hit as a 20th-level character proficient in slings if they both use magic stones from the same casting
That right there should tell you everything you need to know about whether it should be considered a 'weapon attack' or not, especially for the purpose of Sharpshooter. You may have "mastered ranged weapons and can make shots that others find impossible', but that's completely irrelevant when it comes to a magic stone. A toddler, or a monkey, is just as likely to hit with it as you are
But why stop at a magic stone/Sharpshooter combo? Talk your DM into letting you use your longbow as a club, then claim you can use Sharpshooter in melee if you cast shillelagh on it. I mean, you're making an attack with a ranged weapon you are proficient with...
This isn't really a RAI argument, but a RAW one. With that in mind, your argument isn't really much of an argument at all.
The use of shillelagh as you suggested wouldn't work because a longbow is still a longbow, even if you're using it as a club. Trying to cast shillelagh on it would fail.
And RAW, magic stone is not a ranged weapon attack but a spell attack and Sharpshooter doesn't apply. The RAW question got settled ages ago
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Using magic stone to ranged make spell attack hurled with a sling never becomes weapon attack, it remains a spell attack, but qualify as an attack with a ranged weapon for the purposes of Sharpshooter or Sneak Attack as per the Dev own admission.
So if someone embedded a 50 gp diamond in the stock of their crossbow, you believe it would be legal to use Sharpshooter with chromatic orb?
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Using magic stone to ranged make spell attack hurled with a sling never becomes weapon attack, it remains a spell attack, but qualify as an attack with a ranged weapon for the purposes of Sharpshooter or Sneak Attack as per the Dev own admission.
So if someone embedded a 50 gp diamond in the stock of their crossbow, you believe it would be legal to use Sharpshooter with chromatic orb?
No since chromatic orb doesn't say it make ranged spell attack with a weapon.
Using magic stone to ranged make spell attack hurled with a sling never becomes weapon attack, it remains a spell attack, but qualify as an attack with a ranged weapon for the purposes of Sharpshooter or Sneak Attack as per the Dev own admission.
So if someone embedded a 50 gp diamond in the stock of their crossbow, you believe it would be legal to use Sharpshooter with chromatic orb?
No since chromatic orb doesn't say it make ranged spell attack with a weapon.
Neither does magic stone. It explicitly says you are making a ranged spell attack with a pebble
If you think adding an unnecessary sling to that process somehow turns the pebble into a legal ranged weapon, then why can't people add a different unnecessary ranged weapon to the process for other spells that make ranged spell attacks?
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Topic: Does Sharpshooter's Damage effect work when used by Magic Stone cantrip stones?
Only if you sling the magic stone, because then it becomes “a ranged spell attack made using a ranged weapon.” That’s the same reason it also works with Sneak Attack too. Neither requires that it be “a ranged weapon attack,” merely that it be “an attack made/using a ranged weapon.”
No since chromatic orb doesn't say it make ranged spell attack with a weapon.
Neither does magic stone. It explicitly says you are making a ranged spell attack with a pebble
If you think adding an unnecessary sling to that process somehow turns the pebble into a legal ranged weapon, then why can't people add a different unnecessary ranged weapon to the process for other spells that make ranged spell attacks?
As written, magic stone is a ranged spell attack hurled with a sling. How unnecessary the ranged weapon is is not important as long as the spell says the attack is done with it it qualifes.
Right magic stone is not a ranged weapon attack, it's ranged spell attack hurled with a sling. that's why the Dev even say it works with Sneak Attack.
If Sharpshooter's 3rd bullet referred to ranged weapon attack, then magic stone would'nt work with it. But it's not, it instead say an attack with a ranged weapon, which magic stone is when making ranged spell attack hurled with a sling.
You keep coming back to saying its a weapon attack when its not. I repeat it since its supported by the dev because we know for a long time that the spell work with Sneak Attack.
If you ignore the first point about each of these spells being "a normal melee weapon attack, not a spell attack..." then you'd have half a point.
But Magic Stone isn't worded like Green Flame Blade. It doesn't explicitly use a weapon attack, so it is not an attack with a ranged weapon.
If you use a sling to hurl the stone then it is most certainly “an attack made using a ranged weapon,” it just isn’t a “ranged weapon attack.” Kinda like the opposite of how an unarmed strike is a “melee weapon attack,” just not “an attack with a melee weapon.”
No since chromatic orb doesn't say it make ranged spell attack with a weapon.
Neither does magic stone. It explicitly says you are making a ranged spell attack with a pebble
If you think adding an unnecessary sling to that process somehow turns the pebble into a legal ranged weapon, then why can't people add a different unnecessary ranged weapon to the process for other spells that make ranged spell attacks?
As written, magic stone is a ranged spell attack hurled with a sling.
It absolutely is not. The text is right there, man
You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling.
The spell offers you different means for making that ranged spell attack with a pebble, but it unquestionably tells you to make a ranged spell attack with a pebble, and a pebble is not a ranged weapon
If you were making a ranged spell attack with a sling, your skill with a sling would be a factor. It's not. It's completely irrelevant
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I want a rule specifying that "vagueness" is a factor. I explained how the rules say what I keep saying that they say. You say that it isn't valid because it's too vague, and because implications are not RAW. I ask why. If inferences cannot be made about the meanings of words, then words can never have any meaning and RAW is completely nonexistent.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The inferences could have been made pre-2020, but now the rules have been clarified.
Even before, it only hung on the vagueness around what an "attack with a weapon" is. Now we don't have that vagueness to allow for it to be a weapon attack.
So the spell says it makes a spell attack, and doesn't mention the mechanics of a weapon attack... so it doesn't do a weapon attack. That is crystal clear.
I think… 3 or 4 times between the 2 threads Kronzypants keeps quoting the same thing from the SAC and their errata about the melee attack unarmed strike blah blah blah. And using it for “equivalence”
but… if you scroll down a “little bit”. In the exact same SAC under spellcasting you see this:
Can you use green-flame blade and booming blade with Extra Attack, opportunity attacks, Sneak Attack, and other weapon attack options?
“Introduced in the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, the green-flame blade and booming blade spells pose a number of questions, because they each do something unusual: require you to make a me- lee attack with a weapon as part of the spell’s casting.
First, each of these spells involves a normal melee weapon attack, not a spell attack, so you use whatever abil- ity modifier you normally use with the weapon. (A spell tells you if it includes a spell attack, and neither of these spells do.) For example, if you use a longsword with green-flame blade, you use your Strength modifier for the weapon’s at- tack and damage rolls.
Second, neither green-flame blade nor booming blade works with Extra Attack or any other feature that requires the Attack action. Like other spells, these cantrips require the Cast a Spell action, not the Attack action, and they can’t be used to make an opportunity attack, unless a special fea- ture allows you to do so.
Third, these weapon attacks work with Sneak Attack if they fulfill the normal requirements for that feature. For ex- ample, if you have the Sneak Attack feature and cast green- flame blade with a finesse weapon, you can deal Sneak At- tack damage to the target of the weapon attack if you have advantage on the attack roll and hit.”
the third point especially: if magic stone fulfills the normal requirements for the sharpshooter feature. You can use that feature. Plain and simple clearly stated right there. Equivalence.
Blank
It also made this OFFICIAL RULING:
Can you use green-flame blade and booming blade with Extra Attack, opportunity attacks, Sneak Attack, and other weapon attack options?
Introduced in the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, the green-flame blade and booming blade spells pose a number of questions, because they each do something unusual: require you to make a me- lee attack with a weapon as part of the spell’s casting.
First, each of these spells involves a normal melee weapon attack, not a spell attack, so you use whatever abil- ity modifier you normally use with the weapon. (A spell tells you if it includes a spell attack, and neither of these spells do.) For example, if you use a longsword with green-flame blade, you use your Strength modifier for the weapon’s at- tack and damage rolls.
Second, neither green-flame blade nor booming blade works with Extra Attack or any other feature that requires the Attack action. Like other spells, these cantrips require the Cast a Spell action, not the Attack action, and they can’t be used to make an opportunity attack, unless a special fea- ture allows you to do so.
Third, these weapon attacks work with Sneak Attack if they fulfill the normal requirements for that feature. For ex- ample, if you have the Sneak Attack feature and cast green- flame blade with a finesse weapon, you can deal Sneak At- tack damage to the target of the weapon attack if you have advantage on the attack roll and hit.
——————————
again. The 3rd point there, much like sharpshooter’s 3rd point. Is relevant. As the 3rd point there, says if the requirements are fulfilled for sharpshooter, it still applies.
[REDACTED]
Blank
A 0-level commoner who has never even seen a sling before has exactly the same chance to hit as a 20th-level character proficient in slings if they both use magic stones from the same casting
That right there should tell you everything you need to know about whether it should be considered a 'weapon attack' or not, especially for the purpose of Sharpshooter. You may have "mastered ranged weapons and can make shots that others find impossible', but that's completely irrelevant when it comes to a magic stone. A toddler, or a monkey, is just as likely to hit with it as you are
But why stop at a magic stone/Sharpshooter combo? Talk your DM into letting you use your longbow as a club, then claim you can use Sharpshooter in melee if you cast shillelagh on it. I mean, you're making an attack with a ranged weapon you are proficient with...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This isn't really a RAI argument, but a RAW one. With that in mind, your argument isn't really much of an argument at all.
The use of shillelagh as you suggested wouldn't work because a longbow is still a longbow, even if you're using it as a club. Trying to cast shillelagh on it would fail.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
As per the Dev if you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise. So Sharpshooter wouldn't work when a longbow is used as an improvised weapon to make melee attack with.
Using magic stone to ranged make spell attack hurled with a sling never becomes weapon attack, it remains a spell attack, but qualify as an attack with a ranged weapon for the purposes of Sharpshooter or Sneak Attack as per the Dev own admission.
And RAW, magic stone is not a ranged weapon attack but a spell attack and Sharpshooter doesn't apply. The RAW question got settled ages ago
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So if someone embedded a 50 gp diamond in the stock of their crossbow, you believe it would be legal to use Sharpshooter with chromatic orb?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No since chromatic orb doesn't say it make ranged spell attack with a weapon.
Neither does magic stone. It explicitly says you are making a ranged spell attack with a pebble
If you think adding an unnecessary sling to that process somehow turns the pebble into a legal ranged weapon, then why can't people add a different unnecessary ranged weapon to the process for other spells that make ranged spell attacks?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Only if you sling the magic stone, because then it becomes “a ranged spell attack made using a ranged weapon.” That’s the same reason it also works with Sneak Attack too. Neither requires that it be “a ranged weapon attack,” merely that it be “an attack made/using a ranged weapon.”
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As written, magic stone is a ranged spell attack hurled with a sling. How unnecessary the ranged weapon is is not important as long as the spell says the attack is done with it it qualifes.
If you ignore the first point about each of these spells being "a normal melee weapon attack, not a spell attack..." then you'd have half a point.
But Magic Stone isn't worded like Green Flame Blade. It doesn't explicitly use a weapon attack, so it is not an attack with a ranged weapon.
Right magic stone is not a ranged weapon attack, it's ranged spell attack hurled with a sling. that's why the Dev even say it works with Sneak Attack.
If Sharpshooter's 3rd bullet referred to ranged weapon attack, then magic stone would'nt work with it. But it's not, it instead say an attack with a ranged weapon, which magic stone is when making ranged spell attack hurled with a sling.
Given that a weapon attack is an art with a weapon, a spell attack is mutually exclusive with an attack with a weapon.
ignoring the rules doesn’t make your argument convincing if you repeat it.
You keep coming back to saying its a weapon attack when its not. I repeat it since its supported by the dev because we know for a long time that the spell work with Sneak Attack.
If you use a sling to hurl the stone then it is most certainly “an attack made using a ranged weapon,” it just isn’t a “ranged weapon attack.” Kinda like the opposite of how an unarmed strike is a “melee weapon attack,” just not “an attack with a melee weapon.”
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It absolutely is not. The text is right there, man
The spell offers you different means for making that ranged spell attack with a pebble, but it unquestionably tells you to make a ranged spell attack with a pebble, and a pebble is not a ranged weapon
If you were making a ranged spell attack with a sling, your skill with a sling would be a factor. It's not. It's completely irrelevant
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And you keep ignoring the official ruling that a weapon attack is an attack with weapon. There is no such thing as a magic attack with a weapon.
You also keep ignoring that SAC overrides personal statements by the devs.
So you have a pre-SAC argument from RAI, but no argument for RAW