I've made my mind made up that I want to play a Shadow Monk, but I am sad because keep hearing most campaigns will never see 20th level or 16th or 17th level. So I was thinking how can I make more bang for my buch by maximizing the amount of attacks at lower levels (plus whatever else you think I can do with my abilities).
I haven't figured out the initial combination yet, but I was thinking of starting as Fighter first for the Dueling (+2 damage) and Action Surge (extra action per short/long rest). Then at 2nd level take Monk for the natural attack and bonus attack. Then at 2nd level transition to Rogue for both the Sneak attack and Cunning Action (extra action) at second level. Then transition back to Monk as 2nd (Flurry of Blows) level and level up from there.
My ability score improvements will go primarily to Dex. I only play humans (but considered the half celestial). Variant Human was better with the +2 ability score increases and bonus Feat. I will not be a strength based monk nor will I be wearing armor, because I want all movement benefits of the Monk.
How many attacks am I looking at based on the above build. I am not sure what they mean by "possible bonus action" in the Action Surge description. It wouldn't mean an extra attack would it?
Each turn you get 1 Action, 1 Bonus Action, and Movement - and then once per short rest you can Action Surge to get an additional action. Cunning Action doesn't give you an extra action or bonus action - it just gives you extra things that you can do during your normal bonus action. Sneak Attack doesn't give an extra attack but it adds damage on your normal attack once per turn. Flurry of Blows also gives you a powerful use of your bonus action.
So all told you could do one attack with normal damage plus sneak attack damage, then action surge for a second normal attack, then flurry of blows for two unarmed strikes. Or instead of Flurry of Blows you could disengage, dash, hide, or dodge.
Flurry of Blows sounds impressive by giving you basically 3 attacks in a turn but is limited by Ki.
Lvl 5 Fighter gives you 2 attacks with Extra Attack. Unlike Monk, you can use any weapon. In addition Flurry of Blows would only be 1d6 unarmed attack at Monk level 5.
The great downfall is that until you get specialized Monk items, your unarmed strikes are on the weak side compared to other weapons.
Trying for the added Sneak Attack damage is great, however cannot be performed RAW with unarmed strikes.
Fighters can get Two-Weapon Fighting, so at Fighter level 5 you get three attacks plus your Sneak Attack from however many Rogue levels you have, every turn. If you Action Surge you get five attacks.
Lvl 5 Fighter gives you 2 attacks with Extra Attack. Unlike Monk, you can use any weapon. In addition Flurry of Blows would only be 1d6 unarmed attack at Monk level 5.
You know who else gets an Extra Attack at level 5? Monks. And that's on top of the basic Martial Arts Bonus Action Attack. Honestly, for all that you get some people going on that Monk burns through Ki too fast, they are easily able to keep pace with a basic Fighter in tiers 1 and 2 (feats are not basic for this discussion, we're only talking class features). Imo it's not really worth more than a single level dip into Rogue or Fighter on a Monk; it's much more important to get those core Monk features online quickly and build up the Ki pool.
And the idea that the bonus unarmed strikes are meaningfully weaker than other options is fundamentally flawed; in terms of damage options, a Monk can use a quarterstaff for d8's on their action attacks, putting them equal with any one-handed weapon's die; they then at least a d4 with mods as a bonus action, which puts them a single point of damage behind a TWF build on average for the bonus action attack. In short, purely on their standard attack options without using Ki, a Monk can hit the same DPR as a TWF Fighter.
Sneak Attack honestly isn't much good in either case; it's 1d6 for every two Rogue levels; good if you're maining Rogue, otherwise it's not worth the split.
Honestly, you just stick with base Monk and you'll be getting plenty of attacks per round for your level. Trying to get clever with dips into two other classes is just going to hobble your overall progression and performance. And Action Surge really isn't worth much on a Monk; you're getting a single extra attack until 5th level, which you'd get anyways from the Ki point you deferred with the dip. It pulls very slightly ahead at 5th with Extra Attack, but imo not worth the lag in class progression, particularly if you try to take it early rather than waiting until you're up into tier 2 and have a solid foundation for your character.
I haven't figured out the initial combination yet, but I was thinking of starting as Fighter first for the Dueling (+2 damage) and Action Surge (extra action per short/long rest). Then at 2nd level take Monk for the natural attack and bonus attack. Then at 2nd level transition to Rogue for both the Sneak attack and Cunning Action (extra action) at second level. Then transition back to Monk as 2nd (Flurry of Blows) level and level up from there.
Lvl 5 Fighter gives you 2 attacks with Extra Attack. Unlike Monk, you can use any weapon. In addition Flurry of Blows would only be 1d6 unarmed attack at Monk level 5.
You know who else gets an Extra Attack at level 5? Monks. And that's on top of the basic Martial Arts Bonus Action Attack. Honestly, for all that you get some people going on that Monk burns through Ki too fast, they are easily able to keep pace with a basic Fighter in tiers 1 and 2 (feats are not basic for this discussion, we're only talking class features). Imo it's not really worth more than a single level dip into Rogue or Fighter on a Monk; it's much more important to get those core Monk features online quickly and build up the Ki pool.
Thanks! I did not know that. I am certainly glad for that information =)
And the idea that the bonus unarmed strikes are meaningfully weaker than other options is fundamentally flawed; in terms of damage options, a Monk can use a quarterstaff for d8's on their action attacks, putting them equal with any one-handed weapon's die; they then at least a d4 with mods as a bonus action, which puts them a single point of damage behind a TWF build on average for the bonus action attack. In short, purely on their standard attack options without using Ki, a Monk can hit the same DPR as a TWF Fighter.
OP said they want to do Sneak Attacks and you can't do that with quarterstaff.
Sneak Attack honestly isn't much good in either case; it's 1d6 for every two Rogue levels; good if you're maining Rogue, otherwise it's not worth the split.
Honestly, you just stick with base Monk and you'll be getting plenty of attacks per round for your level. Trying to get clever with dips into two other classes is just going to hobble your overall progression and performance. And Action Surge really isn't worth much on a Monk; you're getting a single extra attack until 5th level, which you'd get anyways from the Ki point you deferred with the dip. It pulls very slightly ahead at 5th with Extra Attack, but imo not worth the lag in class progression, particularly if you try to take it early rather than waiting until you're up into tier 2 and have a solid foundation for your character.
Yes, pure Monk gives you a lot of advantages straight up.
I was suggesting Fighter/Rogue and doing away with Monk levels.
I think OP thought that Sneak Attack meant he got another attack. He also thought that Cunning Action gave you an additional action, which it does not. His initial question was how to get the most attacks.
This build gets you 11 attacks on your first turn of the first combat of the day, of which you can smite on 9. Your next turn you can make 5 attacks, then 4 attacks after that, then down to 3 until the start of the next combat. The next combat (assuming a short rest between) you max out at 8 attacks on the first turn and can only make 3 for the rest.
The problem with this is that very few campaigns get to lvl 20. I think OP was also looking at something that would top at 12-15.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I've made my mind made up that I want to play a Shadow Monk, but I am sad because keep hearing most campaigns will never see 20th level or 16th or 17th level. So I was thinking how can I make more bang for my buck by maximizing the amount of attacks at lower levels (plus whatever else you think I can do with my abilities).
My ability score improvements will go primarily to Dex. I only play humans (but considered the half celestial). Variant Human was better with the +2 ability score increases and bonus Feat. I will not be a strength based monk nor will I be wearing armor, because I want all movement benefits of the Monk.
Ok, given these constraints. I'm going to make a few guesses based on your own suggested build for what you want:
Primarily Shadow Monk
Leaning into the ninja-y sneaky theme.
Using a weapon rather than only fists.
Optimize for power / many attack at low levels.
Here is my suggested build:
Level 1: Variant Human, Monk -1 -> Unarmoured Defence, + BA unarmed strike. Wield a Shortsword in one hand, and flying kicks in the other Bonus Feat suggestions:
Defensive Duelist (gives you a solid reaction which is rare for monk)
Fighting Initiate - Dueling (gives you a +2 damage for your main Action attacks)
Mobile (very helpful for skirmishing with Shadow Monk and will be useful later)
Gift of the Chromatic Dragon (another source of damage bonus, and a good reaction ability)
Level 2-5: Shadow Monk -5 -> Extra Attack, FoB, Stunning Strike, and some sneaky utility, ASI:DEX
Level 6-7: Fighter -2 -> Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting (or Dueling if you don't have it yet), Action Surge. Swap to a Dagger which gets boosted to a 1d6 as a monk weapon. Throw it for +4 damage with Dueling & Thrown Weapon Fighting stacking or just stab them. Mobile gives you an option to get out of melee to throw your daggers.
(Optional) Level 8: Shadow Monk -6 -> Shadowstep gives you another option to get out of melee allowing huge flexibility to run in & out of the thick of combat. It's also a super thematic & fun ability, but if you care more about DPR than theme skip it.
Level 9+ : Soulknife Rogue - if you want to lean into the thrown weapon fighter, or Shadow Monk if you want to lean into Monk-ishness
If you go Soulknife Rogue your main strategy would be: Shadowstep into melee, stab them with Adv to trigger sneak attack (optional use Stunning Strike as well), move back using Mobile then throw psychic daggers at them.
If you go Monk, your main strategy would be run/Shadowstep into melee, then attack them a ton of times using FoB.
Eh; pure Rogue at that point can do 6d6 (two shortswords and 4d6 SA at level 8); damage die are roughly the same, and crits potentially hit a lot harder at 10d6 as opposed to 2d8+4d6. Imo, Rogue isn't a good dip; Cunning Action is fairly situational, Sneak Attack doesn't offer much as a dip, and you can get Expertise from feats. And 3 levels of multiclass is a significant investment for a running build.
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I've made my mind made up that I want to play a Shadow Monk, but I am sad because keep hearing most campaigns will never see 20th level or 16th or 17th level. So I was thinking how can I make more bang for my buch by maximizing the amount of attacks at lower levels (plus whatever else you think I can do with my abilities).
I haven't figured out the initial combination yet, but I was thinking of starting as Fighter first for the Dueling (+2 damage) and Action Surge (extra action per short/long rest). Then at 2nd level take Monk for the natural attack and bonus attack. Then at 2nd level transition to Rogue for both the Sneak attack and Cunning Action (extra action) at second level. Then transition back to Monk as 2nd (Flurry of Blows) level and level up from there.
My ability score improvements will go primarily to Dex. I only play humans (but considered the half celestial). Variant Human was better with the +2 ability score increases and bonus Feat. I will not be a strength based monk nor will I be wearing armor, because I want all movement benefits of the Monk.
How many attacks am I looking at based on the above build. I am not sure what they mean by "possible bonus action" in the Action Surge description. It wouldn't mean an extra attack would it?
Each turn you get 1 Action, 1 Bonus Action, and Movement - and then once per short rest you can Action Surge to get an additional action. Cunning Action doesn't give you an extra action or bonus action - it just gives you extra things that you can do during your normal bonus action. Sneak Attack doesn't give an extra attack but it adds damage on your normal attack once per turn. Flurry of Blows also gives you a powerful use of your bonus action.
So all told you could do one attack with normal damage plus sneak attack damage, then action surge for a second normal attack, then flurry of blows for two unarmed strikes. Or instead of Flurry of Blows you could disengage, dash, hide, or dodge.
Flurry of Blows sounds impressive by giving you basically 3 attacks in a turn but is limited by Ki.
Lvl 5 Fighter gives you 2 attacks with Extra Attack. Unlike Monk, you can use any weapon. In addition Flurry of Blows would only be 1d6 unarmed attack at Monk level 5.
The great downfall is that until you get specialized Monk items, your unarmed strikes are on the weak side compared to other weapons.
Trying for the added Sneak Attack damage is great, however cannot be performed RAW with unarmed strikes.
Fighters can get Two-Weapon Fighting, so at Fighter level 5 you get three attacks plus your Sneak Attack from however many Rogue levels you have, every turn. If you Action Surge you get five attacks.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You know who else gets an Extra Attack at level 5? Monks. And that's on top of the basic Martial Arts Bonus Action Attack. Honestly, for all that you get some people going on that Monk burns through Ki too fast, they are easily able to keep pace with a basic Fighter in tiers 1 and 2 (feats are not basic for this discussion, we're only talking class features). Imo it's not really worth more than a single level dip into Rogue or Fighter on a Monk; it's much more important to get those core Monk features online quickly and build up the Ki pool.
And the idea that the bonus unarmed strikes are meaningfully weaker than other options is fundamentally flawed; in terms of damage options, a Monk can use a quarterstaff for d8's on their action attacks, putting them equal with any one-handed weapon's die; they then at least a d4 with mods as a bonus action, which puts them a single point of damage behind a TWF build on average for the bonus action attack. In short, purely on their standard attack options without using Ki, a Monk can hit the same DPR as a TWF Fighter.
Sneak Attack honestly isn't much good in either case; it's 1d6 for every two Rogue levels; good if you're maining Rogue, otherwise it's not worth the split.
Honestly, you just stick with base Monk and you'll be getting plenty of attacks per round for your level. Trying to get clever with dips into two other classes is just going to hobble your overall progression and performance. And Action Surge really isn't worth much on a Monk; you're getting a single extra attack until 5th level, which you'd get anyways from the Ki point you deferred with the dip. It pulls very slightly ahead at 5th with Extra Attack, but imo not worth the lag in class progression, particularly if you try to take it early rather than waiting until you're up into tier 2 and have a solid foundation for your character.
Based on this build, you will at level 5 have:
1x rapier attack / Action for 1d8+5 + 1d6 (sneak attack)
1x martial arts unarmed strike / Bonus action for 1d4+3
1/SR you will get 1 extra action from action Surge for another 1d8+5
In contrast, if you had gone straight Monk you'd have 2x quarterstaff attacks per action for 2x (1d8+4) plus FoB for 5/SR for another 2x(1d6+4)
Thanks! I did not know that. I am certainly glad for that information =)
OP said they want to do Sneak Attacks and you can't do that with quarterstaff.
Yes, pure Monk gives you a lot of advantages straight up.
I was suggesting Fighter/Rogue and doing away with Monk levels.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The problem with this is that very few campaigns get to lvl 20. I think OP was also looking at something that would top at 12-15.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Ok, given these constraints. I'm going to make a few guesses based on your own suggested build for what you want:
Here is my suggested build:
Level 1: Variant Human, Monk -1 -> Unarmoured Defence, + BA unarmed strike. Wield a Shortsword in one hand, and flying kicks in the other
Bonus Feat suggestions:
Level 2-5: Shadow Monk -5 -> Extra Attack, FoB, Stunning Strike, and some sneaky utility, ASI:DEX
Level 6-7: Fighter -2 -> Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting (or Dueling if you don't have it yet), Action Surge. Swap to a Dagger which gets boosted to a 1d6 as a monk weapon. Throw it for +4 damage with Dueling & Thrown Weapon Fighting stacking or just stab them. Mobile gives you an option to get out of melee to throw your daggers.
(Optional) Level 8: Shadow Monk -6 -> Shadowstep gives you another option to get out of melee allowing huge flexibility to run in & out of the thick of combat. It's also a super thematic & fun ability, but if you care more about DPR than theme skip it.
Level 9+ : Soulknife Rogue - if you want to lean into the thrown weapon fighter, or Shadow Monk if you want to lean into Monk-ishness
If you go Soulknife Rogue your main strategy would be: Shadowstep into melee, stab them with Adv to trigger sneak attack (optional use Stunning Strike as well), move back using Mobile then throw psychic daggers at them.
If you go Monk, your main strategy would be run/Shadowstep into melee, then attack them a ton of times using FoB.
Wow. Lot's of great advice. I'm glad that I asked. You are all wonderful!
A rapier is not a monk weapon, so that would have to be a shortsword (1d6).
Or start as Rogue.
Of course you would say that.
But I agree.
Get subclass and Cunning Action
lvl Fighter for Two-Weapon Fighting and Dual Wielder Feat 3d8 +2d6 ain't bad. Dual rapiers is stylish and more damage than two swings of great sword.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Eh; pure Rogue at that point can do 6d6 (two shortswords and 4d6 SA at level 8); damage die are roughly the same, and crits potentially hit a lot harder at 10d6 as opposed to 2d8+4d6. Imo, Rogue isn't a good dip; Cunning Action is fairly situational, Sneak Attack doesn't offer much as a dip, and you can get Expertise from feats. And 3 levels of multiclass is a significant investment for a running build.