When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
I have a rogue. She wants to throw two daggers per turn. Her first would be standard attack with prof bonus. She can throw a second in her off hand (if it's free) since a dagger is light and thrown. So that attack is at full prof bonus to hit, but no modifier to the damage (so just a single 1D4). Is that right?
Follow up: This is a game I'm running with a youth group for whom I need a certain efficiency with combat. I could, in theory, let her make a single attack roll as a "double dagger toss" and then just have her roll 2D4+Bonus on her successful strike, right? I feel like ~on the average~ it'll work out, but she'll also have to keep track of her daggers. I don't care how many daggers she thinks she can quick draw and throw there are still limits to what a teenaged drow can carry comfortably when it comes to accessable bladed weapons.
You have the gist of it. When you make an Attack with one light weapon, you can use your bonus action to attack with a light weapon in your other hand. The main Attack adds your Dex modifier to the damage, while the secondary attack does not. Both attacks use your Dex mod + Proficiency bonus on the d20 roll to hit.
You could allow for both in one, but that's very counter-intuitive to the rules, as well as disadvantageous to the Rogue. The main advantage of Rogues is their Sneak Attack, and the two-weapon fighting bonus action is typically used as a second chance to get Sneak Attack if their first attack misses. Combining them into one Attack would mean they are out of luck for getting their Sneak Attack if they miss.
If you do want to allow this, I would suggest instead just giving the player a Bracer of Flying Daggers, which allows for throwing 2 daggers as an Action and will eliminate any need to track how many daggers they have, while still giving 2 opportunities to activate Sneak Attack (it's still 2 attacks, just in 1 action.) Also, RAW, you can only draw 1 weapon for free on your turn. They could enter combat with 2 in hand, but if they throw them both in one turn then they can only draw 1 dagger on the next. The Thief subclass can use their bonus action (cunning action) to make a second [Tooltip Not Found] action to draw another on their turn, but this eliminates their bonus action that turn. There is also a feat called Dual Wielder that allows you to draw 2 weapons instead of 1 for free once per turn.
All said, for the sake of expediting combat, I would just give them the Bracer of Flying Daggers.
You have the gist of it. When you make an Attack with one light weapon, you can use your bonus action to attack with a light weapon in your other hand. The main Attack adds your Dex modifier to the damage, while the secondary attack does not. Both attacks use your Dex mod + Proficiency bonus on the d20 roll to hit.
You could allow for both in one, but that's very counter-intuitive to the rules, as well as disadvantageous to the Rogue. The main advantage of Rogues is their Sneak Attack, and the two-weapon fighting bonus action is typically used as a second chance to get Sneak Attack if their first attack misses. Combining them into one Attack would mean they are out of luck for getting their Sneak Attack if they miss.
If you do want to allow this, I would suggest instead just giving the player a Bracer of Flying Daggers, which allows for throwing 2 daggers as an Action and will eliminate any need to track how many daggers they have, while still giving 2 opportunities to activate Sneak Attack (it's still 2 attacks, just in 1 action.) Also, RAW, you can only draw 1 weapon for free on your turn. They could enter combat with 2 in hand, but if they throw them both in one turn then they can only draw 1 dagger on the next. The Thief subclass can use their bonus action (cunning action) to make a second Use an Object action to draw another on their turn, but this eliminates their bonus action that turn. There is also a feat called Dual Wielder that allows you to draw 2 weapons instead of 1 for free once per turn.
All said, for the sake of expediting combat, I would just give them the Bracer of Flying Daggers.
I hadn't thought about the sneak attack. The girl's already homicidal and that's when she's facing her foes. I forgot to advise her to try to get behind them. But yeah, over time the two for one attack will hamper her ability to get two shots at the bonus damage from advantage. Trying to stay true to the rules I may check her subclass and just say "here's the deal, you want to do the double dagger toss, here's the trade off." I love that bracer but this game is barely under control; I start handing out magic items there's gonna be a revolt.
That and she's already getting a familiar next session to play Jimminy Cricket to help temper her need to murder everyone she comes across. Though maybe I can split the difference and give her the bracer instead with the condition that it only works while her patron is pleased.....
You don't get Sneak Attack from being behind foes, unless you're playing with the Optional (and in my opinion, bad) Facing rules.
You get it when you have advantage or - and this is the more common way of getting it - when attacking a foe that one of your allies is within 5 feet of. Rogues are best utilized picking off the enemies surrounding the Tank, unless they have some way to get advantage on other foes.
Understandable that you don't want to hand out the Bracer, it would just be the easiest way to accomplish what the player wants to do. Otherwise, they're probably better off taking the Dual Wielder feat (if even possible, dunno what level they are) so they can draw 2 weapons in a turn. Even a Thief subclass would have to skip a turn if they wanted to continuously throw two daggers per turn as they'll lose their Bonus Action drawing the second dagger. It's easier if they enter combat already wielding both daggers - they'll at least get 2 turns in a row where they can throw 2 - but if they enter combat with no weapon in hand it's going to be difficult.
Scenarios (assuming starting combat empty handed) if they exclusively want to throw two at once:
Standard: 1st turn, draw 1 dagger for free, draw 2nd as Action. 2nd turn, throw 1 dagger as action, 2nd as Bonus Action. Repeat these two steps, essentially skipping attacking every other turn.
Thief: 1st turn, draw 1 dagger for free, draw 2nd as BA. (Could then throw 1 as action if they want.) 2nd turn, throw 1 as Action and 1 as BA. (If they threw 1 last turn, they could draw 1 as a free action and then still throw both) Repeat those steps. This would allow for 1, 2, 1, 2, etc. daggers turn after turn, opposed to 0, 2, 0, 2, etc. of the "Standard" method.
Dual Wielder: 1st turn, draw 2 for free and throw them w/ Action and BA. Rinse and repeat.
To make this more visual for you on the character builder, if you click the weapon, under the name you should see 'Customize' dropdown. Open it. First, this allows you to add/override any modifiers (say, they get blessed and all their weapons temporarily (so you wouldn't want to just give them a +1 weapon) become stronger -- I actually used this to modify my Staff attack which was modified when I cast shillelagh onto it).
Right above the checked box 'Display as attack' -- which actually places this specific weapon in the action tab (I usually uncheck unarmed strike -- I know I'm not punching anyone for -2 damage with my wizard) --- you'll see a box marked 'dual wield' -- this will actually place that weapon in your bonus action tab so you can visually be aware that you now have an off-hand bonus action. You'll always notice that unless you have the two weapon fighting style, the builder will automatically calculate whether or not to add the damage modifier (one of the many reasons why I love dndb!)
As a note, rogues are balanced around being able to deal their sneak attack damage pretty much every time their attacks hit (at least during their turn). Which means the party should be aware of their positioning relative to enemies and try to make sure at least one enemy is has an adjacent ally during the rogue's turn so she can sneak attack. Or go with an archetype that grants alternate triggers, like Inquisitive's Insightful Fighting.
Two-Weapon fighting isn't great for rogues, since it means they cannot use their Cunning Action to hide or reposition. But it is thematically very cool.
Also, when I was a teenage D&D player just starting out, I had the same mis-conceptions about being able to throw everything in one turn.
Agreed, two-weapon fighting is much more lackluster than it first appears. In accordance with this thread, it shines the most when making ranged attacks with two daggers, but without the Dual Wielder feat you can't maintain that turn after turn.
Otherwise, two-weapon fighting should pretty much only be used when there is an opportunity for Sneak Attack, and the Rogue's main Attack misses. Otherwise, their bonus action should be utilized to Disengage, Hide, or - if some extra mobility is required - Dash.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
I have a rogue. She wants to throw two daggers per turn. Her first would be standard attack with prof bonus. She can throw a second in her off hand (if it's free) since a dagger is light and thrown. So that attack is at full prof bonus to hit, but no modifier to the damage (so just a single 1D4). Is that right?
Follow up: This is a game I'm running with a youth group for whom I need a certain efficiency with combat. I could, in theory, let her make a single attack roll as a "double dagger toss" and then just have her roll 2D4+Bonus on her successful strike, right? I feel like ~on the average~ it'll work out, but she'll also have to keep track of her daggers. I don't care how many daggers she thinks she can quick draw and throw there are still limits to what a teenaged drow can carry comfortably when it comes to accessable bladed weapons.
Just have her roll a second d20 for the offhand attack and make sure it's a different color than the first. You can get a d20 by itself at some game stores. Alternatively, you can use a spin down counter from Magic: The Gathering, though the distribution of the numbers is different. If you are using digital dice, just have her roll both at the same time. The first to show up is the primary attack and the second is the offhand.
As for the other nuts and bolts of that style... it sounds like the others have that covered. One other option would be to make a melee attack with one and a ranged attack with the other (or with the same dagger). Keep in mind the disadvantage on ranged attacks within 5 feet of an enemy. Perhaps throw a dagger at someone, free action pick it up, and then melee attack with it?
You definitely have the correct understanding of how TWF works, and I echo everything Jay has said about Bracer of Flying Daggers.
That item is tailor-made for what you and your player want both want their character to accomplish.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You definitely have the correct understanding of how TWF works, and I echo everything Jay has said about Bracer of Flying Daggers.
That item is tailor-made for what you and your player want both want their character to accomplish.
Well what my player wants to accomplish.
I want her to not try to murder everything she finds with a pulse....
Then make more NPCs be higher CR creatures they shouldn't be fighting. Have them knock the rogue out and/or arrest them (if the attack was unprovoked).
And make sure to reward non-combat solutions with experience an rewards as well. That will incentivize role play and creative solutions.
The new thrown weapon fighting style in the UA takes the complicated math involved in throwing multiple times per round and just says "fuggetaboutit, draw whatever you need to to do all of your thrown attacks". Or the Dual Wielder feat lets you draw two things per round instead of one, so that would be enough to simplify your rouge's life (and your own). Otherwise you have to keep this weird 2-1-2-1 rhythm in your head, which isn't much fun.
So because the group got too big for the night my little Princess StabbyStabby opted out of playing. But the party got to the ship wreck so next session if she joins us, she'll wake up on the beech with a magic bracer fused to her arm. One of the Gods will be there on hand to explain that as long as said god is happy the bracer will work. It's probably a TOUCH OP for the campaign but meh, it'll give me a nice little shillelagh to remind her to behave.
Maybe have it start damaging her when the God is displeased. 1 or 2 piercing damage for thorns/needles or bludgeoning damage if it just starts compressing on her. Everything she does is at disadvantage.
You definitely have the correct understanding of how TWF works, and I echo everything Jay has said about Bracer of Flying Daggers.
That item is tailor-made for what you and your player want both want their character to accomplish.
Well what my player wants to accomplish.
I want her to not try to murder everything she finds with a pulse....
Then make more NPCs be higher CR creatures they shouldn't be fighting. Have them knock the rogue out and/or arrest them (if the attack was unprovoked).
And make sure to reward non-combat solutions with experience an rewards as well. That will incentivize role play and creative solutions.
Sorry I missed this.
My problem is the usual "the town guard is a high CR" is that it creates more combat rolls and builds into a "do they really learn?" problem. Yes maybe a brawl with some well equipped town guards will remind them that they are but lowly level 1 adventurers, but it is also 30 minutes of my limited window to work with.
I may consider shifting to XP rather than milestones. I prefer milestones way more because it lets me plan around easier but I may need to do the XP thing just to keep them in line because I can use the XP like candy to encourage better table behavior.
Then make more NPCs be higher CR creatures they shouldn't be fighting. Have them knock the rogue out and/or arrest them (if the attack was unprovoked).
And make sure to reward non-combat solutions with experience an rewards as well. That will incentivize role play and creative solutions.
Sorry I missed this.
My problem is the usual "the town guard is a high CR" is that it creates more combat rolls and builds into a "do they really learn?" problem. Yes maybe a brawl with some well equipped town guards will remind them that they are but lowly level 1 adventurers, but it is also 30 minutes of my limited window to work with.
I may consider shifting to XP rather than milestones. I prefer milestones way more because it lets me plan around easier but I may need to do the XP thing just to keep them in line because I can use the XP like candy to encourage better table behavior.
I'm not saying every NPC should have a higher CR, just enough to make them cautious.
You can also make them wanted for any crimes they commit. Have town gates refuse them entry, send overleveled bounty hunters after them, etc.
Then make more NPCs be higher CR creatures they shouldn't be fighting. Have them knock the rogue out and/or arrest them (if the attack was unprovoked).
And make sure to reward non-combat solutions with experience an rewards as well. That will incentivize role play and creative solutions.
Sorry I missed this.
My problem is the usual "the town guard is a high CR" is that it creates more combat rolls and builds into a "do they really learn?" problem. Yes maybe a brawl with some well equipped town guards will remind them that they are but lowly level 1 adventurers, but it is also 30 minutes of my limited window to work with.
I may consider shifting to XP rather than milestones. I prefer milestones way more because it lets me plan around easier but I may need to do the XP thing just to keep them in line because I can use the XP like candy to encourage better table behavior.
I'm not saying every NPC should have a higher CR, just enough to make them cautious.
You can also make them wanted for any crimes they commit. Have town gates refuse them entry, send overleveled bounty hunters after them, etc.
The best part about the overleveled bounty guards is that they are justified due to the behavior of the party. Clearly they've misbehaved and clearly they are dangerous... let's send some real pros after them.
The penalty is that all of their nice gear and extra gold is taken for restitution. Maybe that means that they start over with their beginners gold and equipment. Maybe it means 5 gold each, a club or a dagger, maybe a set of padded armor, and their beginning pack (the one that comes with the class gear). Any items that show up as other personal items (typically from background) can remain, primarily since those items weren't deemed valuable enough by the watch or whatever to be taken.
If they have to start over because of their misbehaving (particularly if they aren't an evil party), it may help them realize that there are consequences.
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Am I following this right?
I have a rogue. She wants to throw two daggers per turn. Her first would be standard attack with prof bonus. She can throw a second in her off hand (if it's free) since a dagger is light and thrown. So that attack is at full prof bonus to hit, but no modifier to the damage (so just a single 1D4). Is that right?
Follow up: This is a game I'm running with a youth group for whom I need a certain efficiency with combat. I could, in theory, let her make a single attack roll as a "double dagger toss" and then just have her roll 2D4+Bonus on her successful strike, right? I feel like ~on the average~ it'll work out, but she'll also have to keep track of her daggers. I don't care how many daggers she thinks she can quick draw and throw there are still limits to what a teenaged drow can carry comfortably when it comes to accessable bladed weapons.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
You have the gist of it. When you make an Attack with one light weapon, you can use your bonus action to attack with a light weapon in your other hand. The main Attack adds your Dex modifier to the damage, while the secondary attack does not. Both attacks use your Dex mod + Proficiency bonus on the d20 roll to hit.
You could allow for both in one, but that's very counter-intuitive to the rules, as well as disadvantageous to the Rogue. The main advantage of Rogues is their Sneak Attack, and the two-weapon fighting bonus action is typically used as a second chance to get Sneak Attack if their first attack misses. Combining them into one Attack would mean they are out of luck for getting their Sneak Attack if they miss.
If you do want to allow this, I would suggest instead just giving the player a Bracer of Flying Daggers, which allows for throwing 2 daggers as an Action and will eliminate any need to track how many daggers they have, while still giving 2 opportunities to activate Sneak Attack (it's still 2 attacks, just in 1 action.) Also, RAW, you can only draw 1 weapon for free on your turn. They could enter combat with 2 in hand, but if they throw them both in one turn then they can only draw 1 dagger on the next. The Thief subclass can use their bonus action (cunning action) to make a second [Tooltip Not Found] action to draw another on their turn, but this eliminates their bonus action that turn. There is also a feat called Dual Wielder that allows you to draw 2 weapons instead of 1 for free once per turn.
All said, for the sake of expediting combat, I would just give them the Bracer of Flying Daggers.
I hadn't thought about the sneak attack. The girl's already homicidal and that's when she's facing her foes. I forgot to advise her to try to get behind them. But yeah, over time the two for one attack will hamper her ability to get two shots at the bonus damage from advantage. Trying to stay true to the rules I may check her subclass and just say "here's the deal, you want to do the double dagger toss, here's the trade off." I love that bracer but this game is barely under control; I start handing out magic items there's gonna be a revolt.
That and she's already getting a familiar next session to play Jimminy Cricket to help temper her need to murder everyone she comes across. Though maybe I can split the difference and give her the bracer instead with the condition that it only works while her patron is pleased.....
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
You don't get Sneak Attack from being behind foes, unless you're playing with the Optional (and in my opinion, bad) Facing rules.
You get it when you have advantage or - and this is the more common way of getting it - when attacking a foe that one of your allies is within 5 feet of. Rogues are best utilized picking off the enemies surrounding the Tank, unless they have some way to get advantage on other foes.
Understandable that you don't want to hand out the Bracer, it would just be the easiest way to accomplish what the player wants to do. Otherwise, they're probably better off taking the Dual Wielder feat (if even possible, dunno what level they are) so they can draw 2 weapons in a turn. Even a Thief subclass would have to skip a turn if they wanted to continuously throw two daggers per turn as they'll lose their Bonus Action drawing the second dagger. It's easier if they enter combat already wielding both daggers - they'll at least get 2 turns in a row where they can throw 2 - but if they enter combat with no weapon in hand it's going to be difficult.
Scenarios (assuming starting combat empty handed) if they exclusively want to throw two at once:
Standard:
1st turn, draw 1 dagger for free, draw 2nd as Action.
2nd turn, throw 1 dagger as action, 2nd as Bonus Action.
Repeat these two steps, essentially skipping attacking every other turn.
Thief:
1st turn, draw 1 dagger for free, draw 2nd as BA. (Could then throw 1 as action if they want.)
2nd turn, throw 1 as Action and 1 as BA. (If they threw 1 last turn, they could draw 1 as a free action and then still throw both)
Repeat those steps. This would allow for 1, 2, 1, 2, etc. daggers turn after turn, opposed to 0, 2, 0, 2, etc. of the "Standard" method.
Dual Wielder:
1st turn, draw 2 for free and throw them w/ Action and BA. Rinse and repeat.
Bracer of Flying Daggers.
Throw 2 as an action, maintaining their bonus action. Awesomeness.
To make this more visual for you on the character builder, if you click the weapon, under the name you should see 'Customize' dropdown. Open it. First, this allows you to add/override any modifiers (say, they get blessed and all their weapons temporarily (so you wouldn't want to just give them a +1 weapon) become stronger -- I actually used this to modify my Staff attack which was modified when I cast shillelagh onto it).
Right above the checked box 'Display as attack' -- which actually places this specific weapon in the action tab (I usually uncheck unarmed strike -- I know I'm not punching anyone for -2 damage with my wizard) --- you'll see a box marked 'dual wield' -- this will actually place that weapon in your bonus action tab so you can visually be aware that you now have an off-hand bonus action. You'll always notice that unless you have the two weapon fighting style, the builder will automatically calculate whether or not to add the damage modifier (one of the many reasons why I love dndb!)
As a note, rogues are balanced around being able to deal their sneak attack damage pretty much every time their attacks hit (at least during their turn). Which means the party should be aware of their positioning relative to enemies and try to make sure at least one enemy is has an adjacent ally during the rogue's turn so she can sneak attack. Or go with an archetype that grants alternate triggers, like Inquisitive's Insightful Fighting.
Two-Weapon fighting isn't great for rogues, since it means they cannot use their Cunning Action to hide or reposition. But it is thematically very cool.
Also, when I was a teenage D&D player just starting out, I had the same mis-conceptions about being able to throw everything in one turn.
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Agreed, two-weapon fighting is much more lackluster than it first appears. In accordance with this thread, it shines the most when making ranged attacks with two daggers, but without the Dual Wielder feat you can't maintain that turn after turn.
Otherwise, two-weapon fighting should pretty much only be used when there is an opportunity for Sneak Attack, and the Rogue's main Attack misses. Otherwise, their bonus action should be utilized to Disengage, Hide, or - if some extra mobility is required - Dash.
Just have her roll a second d20 for the offhand attack and make sure it's a different color than the first. You can get a d20 by itself at some game stores. Alternatively, you can use a spin down counter from Magic: The Gathering, though the distribution of the numbers is different. If you are using digital dice, just have her roll both at the same time. The first to show up is the primary attack and the second is the offhand.
As for the other nuts and bolts of that style... it sounds like the others have that covered. One other option would be to make a melee attack with one and a ranged attack with the other (or with the same dagger). Keep in mind the disadvantage on ranged attacks within 5 feet of an enemy. Perhaps throw a dagger at someone, free action pick it up, and then melee attack with it?
You definitely have the correct understanding of how TWF works, and I echo everything Jay has said about Bracer of Flying Daggers.
That item is tailor-made for what you and your player want both want their character to accomplish.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well what my player wants to accomplish.
I want her to not try to murder everything she finds with a pulse....
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
Then make more NPCs be higher CR creatures they shouldn't be fighting. Have them knock the rogue out and/or arrest them (if the attack was unprovoked).
And make sure to reward non-combat solutions with experience an rewards as well. That will incentivize role play and creative solutions.
The new thrown weapon fighting style in the UA takes the complicated math involved in throwing multiple times per round and just says "fuggetaboutit, draw whatever you need to to do all of your thrown attacks". Or the Dual Wielder feat lets you draw two things per round instead of one, so that would be enough to simplify your rouge's life (and your own). Otherwise you have to keep this weird 2-1-2-1 rhythm in your head, which isn't much fun.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So because the group got too big for the night my little Princess StabbyStabby opted out of playing. But the party got to the ship wreck so next session if she joins us, she'll wake up on the beech with a magic bracer fused to her arm. One of the Gods will be there on hand to explain that as long as said god is happy the bracer will work. It's probably a TOUCH OP for the campaign but meh, it'll give me a nice little shillelagh to remind her to behave.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
Maybe have it start damaging her when the God is displeased. 1 or 2 piercing damage for thorns/needles or bludgeoning damage if it just starts compressing on her. Everything she does is at disadvantage.
Sorry I missed this.
My problem is the usual "the town guard is a high CR" is that it creates more combat rolls and builds into a "do they really learn?" problem. Yes maybe a brawl with some well equipped town guards will remind them that they are but lowly level 1 adventurers, but it is also 30 minutes of my limited window to work with.
I may consider shifting to XP rather than milestones. I prefer milestones way more because it lets me plan around easier but I may need to do the XP thing just to keep them in line because I can use the XP like candy to encourage better table behavior.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
I'm not saying every NPC should have a higher CR, just enough to make them cautious.
You can also make them wanted for any crimes they commit. Have town gates refuse them entry, send overleveled bounty hunters after them, etc.
The best part about the overleveled bounty guards is that they are justified due to the behavior of the party. Clearly they've misbehaved and clearly they are dangerous... let's send some real pros after them.
The penalty is that all of their nice gear and extra gold is taken for restitution. Maybe that means that they start over with their beginners gold and equipment. Maybe it means 5 gold each, a club or a dagger, maybe a set of padded armor, and their beginning pack (the one that comes with the class gear). Any items that show up as other personal items (typically from background) can remain, primarily since those items weren't deemed valuable enough by the watch or whatever to be taken.
If they have to start over because of their misbehaving (particularly if they aren't an evil party), it may help them realize that there are consequences.