I would argue that warlock is overall better then fighter since fighter really only has BM as a reliable option. Champion is not really good at all and it's other subclasses aren't nearly as good as BM. Also warlock doesn't really need subclasses to be good at their roll as much as a fighter needs that specific subclasses to be good. I would also agrue that moon druid is s tier easy.
What's wrong with Eldritch Knight?
Nothing it's a great option. it just doesn't stack up to BM again, imo. EK works good but you start to focus on spellcasting and as it is good to have but you only have a spell list of up to level 4 and your dividing your focus up between magic and melee. a BM on the other hand focuses on maneuvers to aid you in melee combat and only really focuses on melee over dividing up your focus on two things. i'm pretty sure a lot of others more experienced then i on the youtube seen have even said that BM is the highest tier on the list but people do have mixed reviews on it. i prefer rogue duelist multiclassed with fighter BM with the martial adept feat to be able to maneuver a lot as it can give you advantage a lot making sneak attack more reliable. pretty powerful melee and i wanted a sword master anyways.
Are there any maneuvers that give you +5 AC for an entire round?
The Eldritch Knight gets access to spells that are just as powerful, if not more powerful than the maneuvers the Battle Master gets.
i mean 7 maneuvers if you get martial adept and a very wide option of disadvantages and other similar effects for almost every combat situation is pretty good. like i said your focusing magic on a melee character and your spell list is only up to 4th level of a wizard and you have some good spells but a BM is going to out damage you, still be able to hit you due to maneuvers, and mage slayer takes care of any debuffs you can throw at him but you would only use mageslayer in a mage heavy games which i get thrown into a lot anyway and the point is going against the EK. also you don't get metamagic feats and only get 1 attack after a cast if you are close to the enemy and it is only cantrip spells until you hit almost max level. the BM though has 4 attacks/maneuvers he can unleash on you making EK less effective of a fighting class when it comes to damage output from melee and since your only casting up to a level 4 of any damage spell with one attack i highly doubt you are out damaging the BM. Maneuvers also can add damage in the shape of the superiority dice used to make maneuvers. I'm not saying EK is bad though just not as high tier as BM.
I would argue that warlock is overall better then fighter since fighter really only has BM as a reliable option. Champion is not really good at all and it's other subclasses aren't nearly as good as BM. Also warlock doesn't really need subclasses to be good at their roll as much as a fighter needs that specific subclasses to be good. I would also agrue that moon druid is s tier easy.
What's wrong with Eldritch Knight?
Nothing it's a great option. it just doesn't stack up to BM again, imo. EK works good but you start to focus on spellcasting and as it is good to have but you only have a spell list of up to level 4 and your dividing your focus up between magic and melee. a BM on the other hand focuses on maneuvers to aid you in melee combat and only really focuses on melee over dividing up your focus on two things. i'm pretty sure a lot of others more experienced then i on the youtube seen have even said that BM is the highest tier on the list but people do have mixed reviews on it. i prefer rogue duelist multiclassed with fighter BM with the martial adept feat to be able to maneuver a lot as it can give you advantage a lot making sneak attack more reliable. pretty powerful melee and i wanted a sword master anyways.
Are there any maneuvers that give you +5 AC for an entire round?
The Eldritch Knight gets access to spells that are just as powerful, if not more powerful than the maneuvers the Battle Master gets.
i mean 7 maneuvers if you get martial adept and a very wide option of disadvantages and other similar effects for almost every combat situation is pretty good. like i said your focusing magic on a melee character and your spell list is only up to 4th level of a wizard and you have some good spells but a BM is going to out damage you, still be able to hit you due to maneuvers, and mage slayer takes care of any debuffs you can throw at him but you would only use mageslayer in a mage heavy games which i get thrown into a lot anyway and the point is going against the EK. also you don't get metamagic feats and only get 1 attack after a cast if you are close to the enemy and it is only cantrip spells until you hit almost max level. the BM though has 4 attacks/maneuvers he can unleash on you making EK less effective of a fighting class when it comes to damage output from melee and since your only casting up to a level 4 of any damage spell with one attack i highly doubt you are out damaging the BM. Maneuvers also can add damage in the shape of the superiority dice used to make maneuvers. I'm not saying EK is bad though just not as high tier as BM.
Shadow Blade makes it quite achievable for an EK to keep up with a BM in damage. Especially in Dim Light or Darkness.
Booming Blade scales quite well, and you can do a bonus action attack (and add your strength or dexterity to the damage) when you cast that cantrip.
The Wizard spell list has so many spells with fantastic utility for a melee player, such as shield or misty step. At higher levels, casting haste on yourself is great.
An Eldritch Knight isn't focusing on magic. An Eldritch Knight is focusing on using Wizard spells to supplement their melee abilities, rather than trying to be a Wizard. If you're trying to play an Eldritch Knight as a caster in heavy armor, rather than as a melee fighter using magic, you're doing it wrong.
This is the site i use for all my character optimization. i was also considering the time when this came out as a guide line so other subclasses might not have existed yet.
Even if you restrict yourself to just phb material... Eldritch Knight is just as good as Battlemaster; it was just the superior defense option over dpr option.
I probably would't be using shadow blade at higher levels though as magic weapons will work much better and not have to worry about concentration. Throw a flame tongue sword in the mix and shadow blade is a distant memory lol
Cavalier is the ultimate control tank, and arguably better than BM if specced for knockdowns and control. Works great either as a mounted combatant build or shield master build (trying both stretches feats too far).
Samurai has amazing synergy with great weapon master/sharpshooter to attack at advantage with some consistency while "power attacking" with bow or great weapon. This is possibly the highest DPR build in the game.
Cavalier is the ultimate control tank, and arguably better than BM if specced for knockdowns and control. Works great either as a mounted combatant build or shield master build (trying both stretches feats too far).
Samurai has amazing synergy with great weapon master/sharpshooter to attack at advantage with some consistency while "power attacking" with bow or great weapon. This is possibly the highest DPR build in the game.
You really want to do control as a Cavalier. Be a halfling cavalier, riding your parties Centaur Rogue Scout as a mount.
so I know its now 2020 and this was made in 2017 BUT...this list is all wrong and someone who sits down and talks on to no end about theory craft and brake down how each class works I have this to say: any class can have a high damage per round number, any class can be a solid "tank" every class has great utility and buffs in its own way and every and any class can be good at Social and stealth skills, I have made a wizard tank (he was a hill dwarf with touch), monks have super high DPR even at early games (your just looking at the dice and not thinking about a ability mod, at low levels even with +3 they can do 15+ damage per round and at level 5 with +4 dex they do a minimum of 20 damage per round and that is rolling all 1s on damage rolls!) and fighter is EXTREMELY versatile in the way they work, I made a fighter battle master goblin that used ranged attacks and put rogues and rangers to shame! any class can be geared to do any job you want them to do and even class can be fun and versatile to play.
any class can be geared to do any job you want them to do and even class can be fun and versatile to play.
Quoted for truth. This is the one thing people should never forget.
That said....
any class can have a high damage per round number, any class can be a solid "tank" every class has great utility and buffs in its own way and every and any class can be good at Social and stealth skills,
Ish? That's mainly the result of race, background, subclass options, feats and magic items, rather than a core feature of the base class. If you take a good look at the core fighter, paladin and barbarian, independent of any other game features, you can see they're pretty solidly built towards being the front line warrior archetype (ie tank); they get the weapons, the armor, the HP, the weapon techniques. Rogues, Rangers and Monks all come with abilities that make them good scouts; they all have decent stealth and perception options, but the rogue is really good at being stealthy, the ranger great at any wilderness survival, and monks get abilities that make them the best athletes in the game. Warlocks, sorcerers and wizards all share spells that serve similar functions (AoE effects, Counter spell) that other casters have trouble duplicating off hand. Cleric, Druid and Bard are mainly healers/buffers, with a side of CoDzilla-master-of-all-trades-ness.
This isn't set in stone, of course, in the face of the customization options I mentioned above, but its hard to deny that each of the 12 core classes definitely leans into one of the four archetypes that's been around since 1e.
Plus, I mean, this is a thread about who people think the very best is. Like no one ever was. To cat... wait, wrong game. Joking aside, white room theorycraft is fun, if ultimately meaningless.
any class can be geared to do any job you want them to do and even class can be fun and versatile to play.
Quoted for truth. This is the one thing people should never forget.
That said....
any class can have a high damage per round number, any class can be a solid "tank" every class has great utility and buffs in its own way and every and any class can be good at Social and stealth skills,
Ish? That's mainly the result of race, background, subclass options, feats and magic items, rather than a core feature of the base class. If you take a good look at the core fighter, paladin and barbarian, independent of any other game features, you can see they're pretty solidly built towards being the front line warrior archetype (ie tank); they get the weapons, the armor, the HP, the weapon techniques. Rogues, Rangers and Monks all come with abilities that make them good scouts; they all have decent stealth and perception options, but the rogue is really good at being stealthy, the ranger great at any wilderness survival, and monks get abilities that make them the best athletes in the game. Warlocks, sorcerers and wizards all share spells that serve similar functions (AoE effects, Counter spell) that other casters have trouble duplicating off hand. Cleric, Druid and Bard are mainly healers/buffers, with a side of CoDzilla-master-of-all-trades-ness.
This isn't set in stone, of course, in the face of the customization options I mentioned above, but its hard to deny that each of the 12 core classes definitely leans into one of the four archetypes that's been around since 1e.
Plus, I mean, this is a thread about who people think the very best is. Like no one ever was. To cat... wait, wrong game. Joking aside, white room theorycraft is fun, if ultimately meaningless.
Rogues and Monks both get proficiency in dexterity saving throws and get Evasion at level 7. Ranger also gets proficiency in dexterity saving throws and with the Hunter archetype it can also choose Evasion at level 15. The Monk gets Deflect Missiles at level 3, the Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge at level 5. The Ranger can use shields and can choose the Defense fighting style if it is a melee Ranger. A Ranger or Rogue with 20 Dexterity gets 17 AC from Studded Leather, which is equal to Splint and just one short of Plate. A Monk with 20 Dexterity and 14 Wisdom gets 17 AC from its unarmored defense.
They wanted to make sure that Monks and Rogues could survive being up in melee range, so they gave them plenty of abilities to survive being a front line combatant. They gave them enough survivability abilities that Monks, Rogues, and Rangers can pull off the Evasion Tank archetype quite well. The Ranger even has the D10 hit dice, proficiency in all weapons, and proficiency with shields. These three classes are more than just Scouts. They're all quite capable of being an effective Evasion Tank.
yeah some classes are a bit lower in damage per round but that is when you compare them to classes with extremely HIGH damage per round....like fighter, fight is probably the most powerful class in the game due to the sheer number of attacks they get as time goes on, even early on with action surge, battle master just gets tons of extra damage, no matter what you choose to do as a fighter you will deal ALOT of damage every round but I think the most deadly type of fighter is one that takes the sharpshooter feat along with the archery fighting style, the +2 to hit already bumps the plenty of sharpshooter down to -3, using any type of magic weapon and ammo scales it back further and end game when you have plenty of +3 ammo and a +3 ranged weapon the damage you did without rolling dice is already like 84+
but moving on if you want to get into damage the main thing is anything that gives you a attack roll in witch you can add a ability score mod to will be king and then the more damage dice you can roll the better, the biggest hitters will be: any type of fighter, paladin smites, barbarian strength attacks, monks using flurry of blows, hexbades with lifedrinker and eldrich smite (in my math the best two types are hexblades are polearm masters and sharpshooter + xbox expert) rogues with that extra thicc sneak attack, hunters with mark, artificers (battle smith AND Artillerist both hit like dump trucks filled with bombs) and blood hunters if you want to use some openly used homebrew.
Now with all that said casters should not be lightly dismissed, they can deal large chunks of unavoidable damage, boost everyone elses damage (hence boosting there damage per round) or debuffing hostile enemies, a sorcerer twining haste will very greatly boost your groups damage, bards can just have any spell they want and be anything they want to be, even in melee combat as a swords bard your damage will be pretty good, at least as good as paladin, along with the fact they can just have any spells they want. ANY class with heat metal can deal tons of damage and debuff those powerful melee combat foes using metal armor or weapons (never underestimate this spell, it can be bast on arrows or metal weapons thrown at enemies and you can use it to employ the "cook and book" tactic in witch you get within 60 feet of your target, cast it and well....run, the spell doesn't require you to maintain the 60 foot distance, if you pick up find grater steed or phantom steed you can run away and nothing will ever catch you while your target burns to death!) don't even get me started on how strong druids are druids can brake there damage per round of any class pretty easily with spells like moonbeam, heat metal, conjure animals and so on (any "conjure" spell that lets you summon lots of lower CR creatures is great, if your a druid using conjure animals I highly recommend 8 Velociraptors that each get 2 attacks with advantage OR 4 Jaculi that can each get a attack with advantage that deals 4d6+2) and moon durids can change into some pretty nasty creatures if you do your research, like the huge polar bear (yes that is the name of a creature) or later on a wind or water elemental, earth is ok, fire is meh when you compare it to the wind or water, not to mention as a moon druid at level 20 you just become unkilliable to most lower CR enemies that don't have power word death, if someone hits you with power word death while wild shaped you will die because fall off damage from death is death, so death ward yourself and even then just one point over your wildshape and your dead.
and lastly going into classes meant to heal that most people regard as "not fun", they are extremely fun, more so because everyone in your group will love you forever and the DM will get super annoyed because you rolled life cleric and in one turn you took everyone from 5 HP to full because level 6 mass healing word with the bonuses from life cleric is super OP then you still have your action to use your Channel Divinity to heal even more HP to someone or cast a spell and murder some stuff!
I will end this getting the meta gaming talk out of the way for the most important thing: the role playing! I use meta gaming so I can make a decent character blocks and be able to hold my own when I need to while being as goofy or serious as I want to be in combat but you can make some pretty fun characters with various subclasses so don't be scared to play as a less powerful class for the sake of fun and remember character death happens, don't think of it as a bad thing, just the other day I had a character die heroically defending his friends, his death was satisfying and he died well and now I get to shift gears in many ways, he was a big dumb fighter (7 int lol) but he was a good guy with a good heart, NOW I am playing a know it all artificer with the biggest brain who not often feels the need to dumb down any information he gives out to everyone, a good example I had fun with is when we saw a drake and rolled very high to identify it and the DM gave me this long explanation on what it is and does, so my artificer turns to the groups and simply says: "Those are drakes, they are like S****er Smaller dragons." we had a good laugh but the information was conveyed in a way in witch everyone got the information needed lol
Rogues and Monks both get proficiency in dexterity saving throws and get Evasion at level 7. Ranger also gets proficiency in dexterity saving throws and with the Hunter archetype it can also choose Evasion at level 15. The Monk gets Deflect Missiles at level 3, the Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge at level 5. The Ranger can use shields and can choose the Defense fighting style if it is a melee Ranger. A Ranger or Rogue with 20 Dexterity gets 17 AC from Studded Leather, which is equal to Splint and just one short of Plate. A Monk with 20 Dexterity and 14 Wisdom gets 17 AC from its unarmored defense.
They wanted to make sure that Monks and Rogues could survive being up in melee range, so they gave them plenty of abilities to survive being a front line combatant. They gave them enough survivability abilities that Monks, Rogues, and Rangers can pull off the Evasion Tank archetype quite well. The Ranger even has the D10 hit dice, proficiency in all weapons, and proficiency with shields. These three classes are more than just Scouts. They're all quite capable of being an effective Evasion Tank.
Dexterity saves, Evasion, Deflect Arrows have nothing to do with being melee characters. Arrows and Dex-saves are generally the result of ranged attacks, which hit anyone irregardless of where you are in the battle field. If anything, you want Strength saves for being a melee tank, because there's a lot of enemies who require Strength saves to avoid being knocked over. Now, Rangers and Monks DO get Strength saving throws, but the fact that you don't bring it up but instead focus on abilities that don't matter for talking about melee versus ranged is rather disappointing. I'm also rather disappointed at you bringing up a subclass, when I am talking about core class abilities without taking subclasses in mind, no customization options. Not that it matters, since you only bring up Evasion and that's not a melee ability, but its still disappointing.
Those are some pretty low numbers for AC. If you want to talk about evasion tanks, we'll have to start bringing up Bladesingers, who can have a passive AC around the 20 range at level 1, before we start adding things in like Shield, Mirror Image or Shield spells. If you're going to be an evasion tank, you need a good AC with supporting abilities; there are decent evasion tank builds available, but that involves specific feats, magics and subclasses that not all Rogues, Rangers and Monks have. We'll also need to mention that Paladins, Barbarians and Fighters naturally raise their AC over time with new armors, no worry about stats, while scout/skirmishers need to constantly raise their Dexterity to remain competitive; this is an actual concern over long term. Heavy armor has a distinct advantage there. I'm also going to bring up the lack of stickiness that melee Rogues, Rangers and Monks have by default, whereas they rather have a lot of mobility and ranged defense options, making them rather good at skirmishing. At least, as a core class. As I said elsewhere, subclass, feat, magic item, and race can modify this initial tendency.
And that's before we start talking about damage output and being "sticky" so enemies simply won't ignore you. You fail as a tank if enemies ignore you.
And that's before we start talking about damage output and being "sticky" so enemies simply won't ignore you. You fail as a tank if enemies ignore you.
That's a really good point. In a game with no aggro mechanic, there isn't really a "tank" role.
In a game I am in, a player is talking about making their character tanky with an extremely high AC (26 IIRC). That might backfire on them, as smart enemies simply bypass the hard-to-hit character and go after the others, defeating the purpose of a tank.
I GMd a game with a monk with mobility. He kept running in and out of combat, taunting the monsters. His foes couldn't hit him or move to keep up with his extreme speed, so they instead stod over the body of the unconscious sorcerer and stabbed it…
Well, there sort of are ways to make tanking type builds.
The most obvious one is to work more with Opportunity Attacks. A rogue without access to sneak attack for the OA, for instance, is rather laughable, but that Barbarian with Reckless Attack and Heavy Weapon Mastery is a more tempting target to hit instead of trying to run past and get smacked for massive damage; Barbarians are interesting in that they kind of want to get hit, so they can maintain Rage, just in case their attacks miss.
A second way is the Protection Fighting Style - if the nearby paladin is preventing all that damage, then why avoid it? The paladins have a spell or two that mimicks the 4e Defender Marks.
I'm partial to the Sentinel + Polearm Mastery feat combo as well, though anyone can take Sentinel. On a Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight, swap out Polearm Mastery for War Caster and Booming Blade. Actually, just the Booming Blade cantrip is a good tanking method, because it keeps the enemies more interested in attacking you rather than soak the damage from running around, especially with a level 7 EK that can cantrip two times in a single round, plus a potential OA.
Its not as easy to pull off tanking in 5e without aggro, but between positioning and tactics, there are ways.
But, yeah. If you make a character TOO hard to take down, DMs usually just avoid you and move on. Better to just soak the OA and move on. It was funny, once. Back in a 3rd edition game, our group Fighter had that happen to them. They had VERY good AC, and the monsters took an entire round to try and hit them. Failed. So, the DM decided (well, enemy orc warlord decided), "too hard, so kill everyone else before worrying about them." Just took the OA, swarmed around them, and began to attack the back row sorcerer and rogue. The face on our Fighter's face was just priceless. He was all, "Haha! I'm invincible!" And then promptly ignored the next round. "Hey! Where you all going?!" The dwarf cleric kept us alive, but, well, was a learning experience.
You also fail as a tank if you're down on the ground with 0 health. Which is why Evasion and Deflect missiles are useful abilities for a tank.
Monks get Stunning Strike at level 5, this is a pretty good way to make enemies not ignore you. They're also doing three attacks each round once they reach this level. At level 7 they can automatically end a charm or frightened effect using an action.
Monks and Rogues tend to have very good movement - Monks due to their very high speed, and Rogues due to their unlimited Bonus Action Dash. And they've got high Dexterity which means high initiative. A tank isn't any good if it is not able to move into position due to low initiative and low foot speed. Barbarians do well at this, but Fighters and Paladins tend to have low initiative and low movement.
I brought up a subclass because I was talking about an ability that Rogues and Monks have that a subclass of Rangers also gets. Then you bring up Bladesingers, and talk about them as Evasion tanks with their D6 hit dice.
You're talking about new armors, but the new armors only go up to 18 AC before you get into Magical Armors. Heavy Armor is only 1 AC better than Light or Medium Armor.
Paladins, Barbarians, and Fighters don't have much natural stickiness either. You're using a double standard here when evaluating tanks.
You also fail as a tank if you're down on the ground with 0 health. Which is why Evasion and Deflect missiles are useful abilities for a tank.
They're useful abilities for ANYONE. That's the problem. There's nothing "tanky" about it. In fact.... Tanks tends to be in melee, and actually get shot at with arrows less than someone in the back row, due to the whole disadvantage thing, so its actually more helpful for a skirmisher role.
Here's the thing about Dex saves versus Str saves too - the former tends to be just damage, and generally the three warrior classes can take the damage without dying (and often have ways to mitigate said damage). Meanwhile, the Strength-based saves tend to do things such as knock you prone, or stun you, or the like - crowd control effects. The latter of which are far more debilitating for a tank. And, before anyone tries to bring it up, the amount of Dex saves versus Str saves in the Monster Manual is roughly equal. Dex saves tend to come from dragon breath and spells (such as enemies casting fireball), whereas Str saves comes from enemies in melee (where tanks spend most of their time).
Monks get Stunning Strike at level 5, this is a pretty good way to make enemies not ignore you. They're also doing three attacks each round once they reach this level. At level 7 they can automatically end a charm or frightened effect using an action.
Stunning Strike does not encourage enemies to ignore you in the same way that a wizard's Hold Person spell encourages enemies to not ignore the wizard. Its a crowd control effect, not an effect that lets you put yourself between enemy attacks and your squishy allies. While it is possible to use CC as a tank to protect the party, Stunning Strike runs on a limited resource, just like spells, so you have to be very selective when using it, and the enemy gets a Con save (which tends to be rather high for many melee-range monsters, which tanks primarily deal with) so you'll often have to spend more than one ki to actually stun a given monster, if you succeed at all, draining resources even faster.
When a barbarian puts himself between your opponents and you, he creates a choice - attack me, or ignore me and suffer the consequences. The barbarian comes out ahead in either case. With a monk trying to do the same, they come out weaker when getting attacked, since they cannot take as much damage as a barbarian, lack the barbarian's damage resistance and often have equivalent AC. They are simply not as resistant as the barbarian. The Protector FS gives a different choice - do shit for damage, or attack me.
Now, a monk can get a high enough AC to be able to evade enough damage, but that requires a bit of investment into the right subclass (Kensei), and some magic items to boost her defense (no feats, since all attribute bumps need to go into Dex or Wis. Also, not a lot of Con as a result, so less HP). Its not something that, say, a Shadow Monk can readily pull off, whereas all Barbarians can shrug off damage.
Monks and Rogues tend to have very good movement - Monks due to their very high speed, and Rogues due to their unlimited Bonus Action Dash. And they've got high Dexterity which means high initiative. A tank isn't any good if it is not able to move into position due to low initiative and low foot speed. Barbarians do well at this, but Fighters and Paladins tend to have low initiative and low movement.
Monks, Rogues and Rangers have high movement speed so they can skirmish - basically, they're highly mobile and running around the field. Rogues also have a tendency to use their Cunning Action to hide, so setting up advantage for next turn's sneak attack, as well as a form of damage reduction (can't target what you can't see). Monks use their speed to kite enemies - run in, stun them for no OA, run away. Or run deeper and hit a mage in the back to prevent doom-ness.
Barbarians also like to charge out into the field; they're the Unstoppable Force that people fear running around, because the OA will smack them with a heavy single-attack damage. Meanwhile, a Paladin with Protection FS wants to sit back next to wards and not charge ahead - that way, they're kept in range of the shield AND the aura bonuses. Fighters have several options, depending on build specifics; one advantage of Fighters is access to more feats than anyone else.
Each class has a different playstyle.
You're talking about new armors, but the new armors only go up to 18 AC before you get into Magical Armors. Heavy Armor is only 1 AC better than Light or Medium Armor.
Its an advantage for Fighter, Paladin and Barbarian, because they can get +2 to +4 more AC than Ranger, Rogue and Monk without raising their attributes. Its an advantage.
Paladins, Barbarians, and Fighters don't have much natural stickiness either. You're using a double standard here when evaluating tanks.
I listed several different ways the three warrior classes have more stickiness above. Better OAs, paladin spells, wizard cantrip, Protective FS that Ranger doesn't have access to. I didn't mention trips, grapples and the like, which also count, and are especially useful on the Fighter with their multiple attacks, and less useful for the three Dex-based skirmisher/scout classes. These are abilities that encourage stickiness that the other classes don't have. Stunning strike is closest, but that runs on a limited resource, so it can't be used long term protection.
Rather than a double standard, I would say you're stripping any and all standard and context from the abilities. All damage reductions are the same! All abilities are equivalent! All ACs are equally good! You're ignoring lots.
If you think that 18 is 2 to 4 more than 17, I think we see where the problem is. My Ranger had 20 AC at level 2. High AC isn't just for people with Heavy Armor.
Rogues don't need to hide for Sneak Attack if their target is next to one of their allies. Ranged Rogues tend to hide with their bonus action, but Melee Rogues don't tend to do that. Especially Melee Rogues that aren't the only Melee player in their party. Our group follows the rules when it comes to being able to Hide and being able to stay hidden. You can't just do a Bonus Action hide unless you have a place to hide. And if you leave that hiding place to go out and attack somebody, you're no longer hidden.
If you choose to not attack a Barbarian, what are the consequences? That he might lose his rage because he didn't take any damage? Rages are a far more limited resource than Stunning Strikes. Ignoring a Barbarian isn't any more of a problem than ignoring a Monk or a Rogue. Ignoring a Rogue is probably the most perilous thing to do. If they get Sneak Attack damage on their OA, they can make it really painful to run away from them. A Monk can do a Stunning Strike on his OA. What makes ignoring a Barbarian worse than ignoring a Monk or a Rogue? You're claiming that Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians have better OAs than Rogues? That's even worse math than pretending that 18 AC is 2-4 more AC than 17 AC. This isn't a double standard, this is just you being clueless.
The Protection Fighting Style is great at protecting other melee players, but you seem to have forgotten that it only lets you protect people within 5ft of you. And you're giving up 1 AC by choosing Protection instead of Defense. When you're grouped up close to somebody with the Protection Fighting Style, that makes your party much more vulnerable to area of effect spells. Ones that usually target Dex saves. Where having Evasion might come in really handy. If the enemy attacks somebody that isn't standing next to you, then your fighting style won't help. If you're facing an enemy with multi-attack, then your fighting style lets you affect just one of the attacks. But if your ranged allies are smart, they're not going to be standing next to your Paladin or Fighter. They won't be standing next to you to try to take advantage of your Protection Fighting Style. Your Protection Fighting Style will be useless at protecting your ranged allies.
Melee players tend to run towards the enemy and not hide behind cover. Ranged players don't tend to run towards the enemy during combat, and prefer to hide behind cover. If your ranged players are getting hit by archers and other ranged enemies, tell your ranged players to stop playing like idiots. Tell them to find cover and to stay as far away from the enemies as their attacks will allow. Melee players don't have that option to stay out of range of the ranged enemies and to hide behind cover. But ranged players do. Maybe the ranged players in your party play like idiots. Maybe its your fault. Maybe you're telling them to stand next to the tank because of his protection fighting style instead of letting them hide behind cover at the maximum distance they need in order to do their attacks.
It's funny how you talk about Wizard cantrips, but you forget that Rogues get access to Wizard cantrips just like Fighters get access to Wizard cantrips. And Rangers get access to Hunter's Mark just like Paladins do. So don't pretend that Wizard cantrips and Hunter's Mark is what make Fighters and Paladins better than Rogues and Rangers. Unless you want to keep using a double standard.
It's funny how you compare Stunning Strike to Hold Person. I'm sure those Paladins and Eldritch Knights are going to be quite successful casting and concentrating on Hold Person while they're tanking. Stunning Strike runs on limited resources, just like spells, but you get all your ki points back on a short rest, and you have a number of ki points equal to your own level. Spell slots are also a limited resource, but they don't come back on a short rest. Ki points aren't as limited as Spell slots. You're correct that they're both limited resources, but you're forgetting that they're not equally limited.
Yes, using Light or Medium Armor means that you want to get your Dexterity to 20. Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians can get their high AC without having to boost their Strength to 20, but getting your main attack stat to 20 has some useful advantages. Such as increasing your chance to hit and increasing your damage. A couple of things which go a long way to making you more sticky. A couple of things which make it a lot harder for enemies to ignore you. So this isn't a problem. Having 20 Dexterity as a Monk, Ranger, or Rogue does more than just increase your AC. If you're using the need to get 20 Dex as a disadvantage, then don't pretend that your Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin has 20 Strength. Unless you want to keep using a double standard.
No, you really don't. You're not actually following what I'm saying.
The fact that Rogues have to have an ally nearby the enemy completely and utterly defeats the point of calling them a tank. Tanks get between allies and enemies, not rely on enemies and allies to get together. I talked about Barbarians and OA at length. You're just bringing up the same old things, over and over, without actually adding anything new.
At this point, I'm just going to assume that you're confusing "tank" with "melee-range character" and move on. Good day.
No, you really don't. You're not actually following what I'm saying.
The fact that Rogues have to have an ally nearby the enemy completely and utterly defeats the point of calling them a tank. Tanks get between allies and enemies, not rely on enemies and allies to get together. I talked about Barbarians and OA at length. You're just bringing up the same old things, over and over, without actually adding anything new.
At this point, I'm just going to assume that you're confusing "tank" with "melee-range character" and move on. Good day.
So Rogue Sneak Attack wanting an ally nearby makes them not a tank, but the Protection Fighting Style only working when you have an ally nearby makes them a tank?
Ok so people forget that swashbuckler is a archetype for rogues (look it up), along with defensive duelist feat some decent light armor and lots of dex (and maybe high con and the tough feat) you got yourself a annoyance tank! Take one level in warlock (because 1d8 hit dice vs other classes that get these cantrips) and take booming blade and you can poke something for even more damage and back up without feat of a attack and do even more when they move in to attack!
Ok so people forget that swashbuckler is a archetype for rogues (look it up), along with defensive duelist feat some decent light armor and lots of dex (and maybe high con and the tough feat) you got yourself a annoyance tank! Take one level in warlock (because 1d8 hit dice vs other classes that get these cantrips) and take booming blade and you can poke something for even more damage and back up without feat of a attack and do even more when they move in to attack!
There I solved your rogue tank problem
You can also get Booming Blade just by being a High Elf Rogue.
Or you can go Arcane Trickster and get Booming Blade (and the Shield spell) that way. With the war caster feat and a one level dip in Fighter you can get the Defense Fighting Style, the ability to use shields, the ability to cast Shield while using a Shield and a Rapier, the ability to cast Booming Blade as an opportunity attack, and advantage on concentration checks when you're using Shadow Blade (which gives you advantage in Dim Light or Darkness, i.e. automatic Sneak Attack).
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i mean 7 maneuvers if you get martial adept and a very wide option of disadvantages and other similar effects for almost every combat situation is pretty good. like i said your focusing magic on a melee character and your spell list is only up to 4th level of a wizard and you have some good spells but a BM is going to out damage you, still be able to hit you due to maneuvers, and mage slayer takes care of any debuffs you can throw at him but you would only use mageslayer in a mage heavy games which i get thrown into a lot anyway and the point is going against the EK. also you don't get metamagic feats and only get 1 attack after a cast if you are close to the enemy and it is only cantrip spells until you hit almost max level. the BM though has 4 attacks/maneuvers he can unleash on you making EK less effective of a fighting class when it comes to damage output from melee and since your only casting up to a level 4 of any damage spell with one attack i highly doubt you are out damaging the BM. Maneuvers also can add damage in the shape of the superiority dice used to make maneuvers. I'm not saying EK is bad though just not as high tier as BM.
Shadow Blade makes it quite achievable for an EK to keep up with a BM in damage. Especially in Dim Light or Darkness.
Booming Blade scales quite well, and you can do a bonus action attack (and add your strength or dexterity to the damage) when you cast that cantrip.
The Wizard spell list has so many spells with fantastic utility for a melee player, such as shield or misty step. At higher levels, casting haste on yourself is great.
An Eldritch Knight isn't focusing on magic. An Eldritch Knight is focusing on using Wizard spells to supplement their melee abilities, rather than trying to be a Wizard. If you're trying to play an Eldritch Knight as a caster in heavy armor, rather than as a melee fighter using magic, you're doing it wrong.
Even if you restrict yourself to just phb material... Eldritch Knight is just as good as Battlemaster; it was just the superior defense option over dpr option.
I probably would't be using shadow blade at higher levels though as magic weapons will work much better and not have to worry about concentration. Throw a flame tongue sword in the mix and shadow blade is a distant memory lol
Cavalier is the ultimate control tank, and arguably better than BM if specced for knockdowns and control. Works great either as a mounted combatant build or shield master build (trying both stretches feats too far).
Samurai has amazing synergy with great weapon master/sharpshooter to attack at advantage with some consistency while "power attacking" with bow or great weapon. This is possibly the highest DPR build in the game.
You really want to do control as a Cavalier. Be a halfling cavalier, riding your parties Centaur Rogue Scout as a mount.
broken.
Blank
so I know its now 2020 and this was made in 2017 BUT...this list is all wrong and someone who sits down and talks on to no end about theory craft and brake down how each class works I have this to say: any class can have a high damage per round number, any class can be a solid "tank" every class has great utility and buffs in its own way and every and any class can be good at Social and stealth skills, I have made a wizard tank (he was a hill dwarf with touch), monks have super high DPR even at early games (your just looking at the dice and not thinking about a ability mod, at low levels even with +3 they can do 15+ damage per round and at level 5 with +4 dex they do a minimum of 20 damage per round and that is rolling all 1s on damage rolls!) and fighter is EXTREMELY versatile in the way they work, I made a fighter battle master goblin that used ranged attacks and put rogues and rangers to shame!
any class can be geared to do any job you want them to do and even class can be fun and versatile to play.
Quoted for truth. This is the one thing people should never forget.
That said....
Ish? That's mainly the result of race, background, subclass options, feats and magic items, rather than a core feature of the base class. If you take a good look at the core fighter, paladin and barbarian, independent of any other game features, you can see they're pretty solidly built towards being the front line warrior archetype (ie tank); they get the weapons, the armor, the HP, the weapon techniques. Rogues, Rangers and Monks all come with abilities that make them good scouts; they all have decent stealth and perception options, but the rogue is really good at being stealthy, the ranger great at any wilderness survival, and monks get abilities that make them the best athletes in the game. Warlocks, sorcerers and wizards all share spells that serve similar functions (AoE effects, Counter spell) that other casters have trouble duplicating off hand. Cleric, Druid and Bard are mainly healers/buffers, with a side of CoDzilla-master-of-all-trades-ness.
This isn't set in stone, of course, in the face of the customization options I mentioned above, but its hard to deny that each of the 12 core classes definitely leans into one of the four archetypes that's been around since 1e.
Plus, I mean, this is a thread about who people think the very best is. Like no one ever was. To cat... wait, wrong game. Joking aside, white room theorycraft is fun, if ultimately meaningless.
Rogues and Monks both get proficiency in dexterity saving throws and get Evasion at level 7. Ranger also gets proficiency in dexterity saving throws and with the Hunter archetype it can also choose Evasion at level 15. The Monk gets Deflect Missiles at level 3, the Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge at level 5. The Ranger can use shields and can choose the Defense fighting style if it is a melee Ranger. A Ranger or Rogue with 20 Dexterity gets 17 AC from Studded Leather, which is equal to Splint and just one short of Plate. A Monk with 20 Dexterity and 14 Wisdom gets 17 AC from its unarmored defense.
They wanted to make sure that Monks and Rogues could survive being up in melee range, so they gave them plenty of abilities to survive being a front line combatant. They gave them enough survivability abilities that Monks, Rogues, and Rangers can pull off the Evasion Tank archetype quite well. The Ranger even has the D10 hit dice, proficiency in all weapons, and proficiency with shields. These three classes are more than just Scouts. They're all quite capable of being an effective Evasion Tank.
yeah some classes are a bit lower in damage per round but that is when you compare them to classes with extremely HIGH damage per round....like fighter, fight is probably the most powerful class in the game due to the sheer number of attacks they get as time goes on, even early on with action surge, battle master just gets tons of extra damage, no matter what you choose to do as a fighter you will deal ALOT of damage every round but I think the most deadly type of fighter is one that takes the sharpshooter feat along with the archery fighting style, the +2 to hit already bumps the plenty of sharpshooter down to -3, using any type of magic weapon and ammo scales it back further and end game when you have plenty of +3 ammo and a +3 ranged weapon the damage you did without rolling dice is already like 84+
but moving on if you want to get into damage the main thing is anything that gives you a attack roll in witch you can add a ability score mod to will be king and then the more damage dice you can roll the better, the biggest hitters will be: any type of fighter, paladin smites, barbarian strength attacks, monks using flurry of blows, hexbades with lifedrinker and eldrich smite (in my math the best two types are hexblades are polearm masters and sharpshooter + xbox expert) rogues with that extra thicc sneak attack, hunters with mark, artificers (battle smith AND Artillerist both hit like dump trucks filled with bombs) and blood hunters if you want to use some openly used homebrew.
Now with all that said casters should not be lightly dismissed, they can deal large chunks of unavoidable damage, boost everyone elses damage (hence boosting there damage per round) or debuffing hostile enemies, a sorcerer twining haste will very greatly boost your groups damage, bards can just have any spell they want and be anything they want to be, even in melee combat as a swords bard your damage will be pretty good, at least as good as paladin, along with the fact they can just have any spells they want.
ANY class with heat metal can deal tons of damage and debuff those powerful melee combat foes using metal armor or weapons (never underestimate this spell, it can be bast on arrows or metal weapons thrown at enemies and you can use it to employ the "cook and book" tactic in witch you get within 60 feet of your target, cast it and well....run, the spell doesn't require you to maintain the 60 foot distance, if you pick up find grater steed or phantom steed you can run away and nothing will ever catch you while your target burns to death!)
don't even get me started on how strong druids are druids can brake there damage per round of any class pretty easily with spells like moonbeam, heat metal, conjure animals and so on (any "conjure" spell that lets you summon lots of lower CR creatures is great, if your a druid using conjure animals I highly recommend 8 Velociraptors that each get 2 attacks with advantage OR 4 Jaculi that can each get a attack with advantage that deals 4d6+2) and moon durids can change into some pretty nasty creatures if you do your research, like the huge polar bear (yes that is the name of a creature) or later on a wind or water elemental, earth is ok, fire is meh when you compare it to the wind or water, not to mention as a moon druid at level 20 you just become unkilliable to most lower CR enemies that don't have power word death, if someone hits you with power word death while wild shaped you will die because fall off damage from death is death, so death ward yourself and even then just one point over your wildshape and your dead.
and lastly going into classes meant to heal that most people regard as "not fun", they are extremely fun, more so because everyone in your group will love you forever and the DM will get super annoyed because you rolled life cleric and in one turn you took everyone from 5 HP to full because level 6 mass healing word with the bonuses from life cleric is super OP then you still have your action to use your Channel Divinity to heal even more HP to someone or cast a spell and murder some stuff!
I will end this getting the meta gaming talk out of the way for the most important thing: the role playing! I use meta gaming so I can make a decent character blocks and be able to hold my own when I need to while being as goofy or serious as I want to be in combat but you can make some pretty fun characters with various subclasses so don't be scared to play as a less powerful class for the sake of fun and remember character death happens, don't think of it as a bad thing, just the other day I had a character die heroically defending his friends, his death was satisfying and he died well and now I get to shift gears in many ways, he was a big dumb fighter (7 int lol) but he was a good guy with a good heart, NOW I am playing a know it all artificer with the biggest brain who not often feels the need to dumb down any information he gives out to everyone, a good example I had fun with is when we saw a drake and rolled very high to identify it and the DM gave me this long explanation on what it is and does, so my artificer turns to the groups and simply says: "Those are drakes, they are like S****er Smaller dragons." we had a good laugh but the information was conveyed in a way in witch everyone got the information needed lol
Dexterity saves, Evasion, Deflect Arrows have nothing to do with being melee characters. Arrows and Dex-saves are generally the result of ranged attacks, which hit anyone irregardless of where you are in the battle field. If anything, you want Strength saves for being a melee tank, because there's a lot of enemies who require Strength saves to avoid being knocked over. Now, Rangers and Monks DO get Strength saving throws, but the fact that you don't bring it up but instead focus on abilities that don't matter for talking about melee versus ranged is rather disappointing. I'm also rather disappointed at you bringing up a subclass, when I am talking about core class abilities without taking subclasses in mind, no customization options. Not that it matters, since you only bring up Evasion and that's not a melee ability, but its still disappointing.
Those are some pretty low numbers for AC. If you want to talk about evasion tanks, we'll have to start bringing up Bladesingers, who can have a passive AC around the 20 range at level 1, before we start adding things in like Shield, Mirror Image or Shield spells. If you're going to be an evasion tank, you need a good AC with supporting abilities; there are decent evasion tank builds available, but that involves specific feats, magics and subclasses that not all Rogues, Rangers and Monks have. We'll also need to mention that Paladins, Barbarians and Fighters naturally raise their AC over time with new armors, no worry about stats, while scout/skirmishers need to constantly raise their Dexterity to remain competitive; this is an actual concern over long term. Heavy armor has a distinct advantage there. I'm also going to bring up the lack of stickiness that melee Rogues, Rangers and Monks have by default, whereas they rather have a lot of mobility and ranged defense options, making them rather good at skirmishing. At least, as a core class. As I said elsewhere, subclass, feat, magic item, and race can modify this initial tendency.
And that's before we start talking about damage output and being "sticky" so enemies simply won't ignore you. You fail as a tank if enemies ignore you.
That's a really good point. In a game with no aggro mechanic, there isn't really a "tank" role.
In a game I am in, a player is talking about making their character tanky with an extremely high AC (26 IIRC). That might backfire on them, as smart enemies simply bypass the hard-to-hit character and go after the others, defeating the purpose of a tank.
I GMd a game with a monk with mobility. He kept running in and out of combat, taunting the monsters. His foes couldn't hit him or move to keep up with his extreme speed, so they instead stod over the body of the unconscious sorcerer and stabbed it…
Well, there sort of are ways to make tanking type builds.
The most obvious one is to work more with Opportunity Attacks. A rogue without access to sneak attack for the OA, for instance, is rather laughable, but that Barbarian with Reckless Attack and Heavy Weapon Mastery is a more tempting target to hit instead of trying to run past and get smacked for massive damage; Barbarians are interesting in that they kind of want to get hit, so they can maintain Rage, just in case their attacks miss.
A second way is the Protection Fighting Style - if the nearby paladin is preventing all that damage, then why avoid it? The paladins have a spell or two that mimicks the 4e Defender Marks.
I'm partial to the Sentinel + Polearm Mastery feat combo as well, though anyone can take Sentinel. On a Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight, swap out Polearm Mastery for War Caster and Booming Blade. Actually, just the Booming Blade cantrip is a good tanking method, because it keeps the enemies more interested in attacking you rather than soak the damage from running around, especially with a level 7 EK that can cantrip two times in a single round, plus a potential OA.
Its not as easy to pull off tanking in 5e without aggro, but between positioning and tactics, there are ways.
But, yeah. If you make a character TOO hard to take down, DMs usually just avoid you and move on. Better to just soak the OA and move on. It was funny, once. Back in a 3rd edition game, our group Fighter had that happen to them. They had VERY good AC, and the monsters took an entire round to try and hit them. Failed. So, the DM decided (well, enemy orc warlord decided), "too hard, so kill everyone else before worrying about them." Just took the OA, swarmed around them, and began to attack the back row sorcerer and rogue. The face on our Fighter's face was just priceless. He was all, "Haha! I'm invincible!" And then promptly ignored the next round. "Hey! Where you all going?!" The dwarf cleric kept us alive, but, well, was a learning experience.
You also fail as a tank if you're down on the ground with 0 health. Which is why Evasion and Deflect missiles are useful abilities for a tank.
Monks get Stunning Strike at level 5, this is a pretty good way to make enemies not ignore you. They're also doing three attacks each round once they reach this level. At level 7 they can automatically end a charm or frightened effect using an action.
Monks and Rogues tend to have very good movement - Monks due to their very high speed, and Rogues due to their unlimited Bonus Action Dash. And they've got high Dexterity which means high initiative. A tank isn't any good if it is not able to move into position due to low initiative and low foot speed. Barbarians do well at this, but Fighters and Paladins tend to have low initiative and low movement.
I brought up a subclass because I was talking about an ability that Rogues and Monks have that a subclass of Rangers also gets. Then you bring up Bladesingers, and talk about them as Evasion tanks with their D6 hit dice.
You're talking about new armors, but the new armors only go up to 18 AC before you get into Magical Armors. Heavy Armor is only 1 AC better than Light or Medium Armor.
Paladins, Barbarians, and Fighters don't have much natural stickiness either. You're using a double standard here when evaluating tanks.
They're useful abilities for ANYONE. That's the problem. There's nothing "tanky" about it. In fact.... Tanks tends to be in melee, and actually get shot at with arrows less than someone in the back row, due to the whole disadvantage thing, so its actually more helpful for a skirmisher role.
Here's the thing about Dex saves versus Str saves too - the former tends to be just damage, and generally the three warrior classes can take the damage without dying (and often have ways to mitigate said damage). Meanwhile, the Strength-based saves tend to do things such as knock you prone, or stun you, or the like - crowd control effects. The latter of which are far more debilitating for a tank. And, before anyone tries to bring it up, the amount of Dex saves versus Str saves in the Monster Manual is roughly equal. Dex saves tend to come from dragon breath and spells (such as enemies casting fireball), whereas Str saves comes from enemies in melee (where tanks spend most of their time).
Stunning Strike does not encourage enemies to ignore you in the same way that a wizard's Hold Person spell encourages enemies to not ignore the wizard. Its a crowd control effect, not an effect that lets you put yourself between enemy attacks and your squishy allies. While it is possible to use CC as a tank to protect the party, Stunning Strike runs on a limited resource, just like spells, so you have to be very selective when using it, and the enemy gets a Con save (which tends to be rather high for many melee-range monsters, which tanks primarily deal with) so you'll often have to spend more than one ki to actually stun a given monster, if you succeed at all, draining resources even faster.
When a barbarian puts himself between your opponents and you, he creates a choice - attack me, or ignore me and suffer the consequences. The barbarian comes out ahead in either case. With a monk trying to do the same, they come out weaker when getting attacked, since they cannot take as much damage as a barbarian, lack the barbarian's damage resistance and often have equivalent AC. They are simply not as resistant as the barbarian. The Protector FS gives a different choice - do shit for damage, or attack me.
Now, a monk can get a high enough AC to be able to evade enough damage, but that requires a bit of investment into the right subclass (Kensei), and some magic items to boost her defense (no feats, since all attribute bumps need to go into Dex or Wis. Also, not a lot of Con as a result, so less HP). Its not something that, say, a Shadow Monk can readily pull off, whereas all Barbarians can shrug off damage.
Monks, Rogues and Rangers have high movement speed so they can skirmish - basically, they're highly mobile and running around the field. Rogues also have a tendency to use their Cunning Action to hide, so setting up advantage for next turn's sneak attack, as well as a form of damage reduction (can't target what you can't see). Monks use their speed to kite enemies - run in, stun them for no OA, run away. Or run deeper and hit a mage in the back to prevent doom-ness.
Barbarians also like to charge out into the field; they're the Unstoppable Force that people fear running around, because the OA will smack them with a heavy single-attack damage. Meanwhile, a Paladin with Protection FS wants to sit back next to wards and not charge ahead - that way, they're kept in range of the shield AND the aura bonuses. Fighters have several options, depending on build specifics; one advantage of Fighters is access to more feats than anyone else.
Each class has a different playstyle.
Its an advantage for Fighter, Paladin and Barbarian, because they can get +2 to +4 more AC than Ranger, Rogue and Monk without raising their attributes. Its an advantage.
I listed several different ways the three warrior classes have more stickiness above. Better OAs, paladin spells, wizard cantrip, Protective FS that Ranger doesn't have access to. I didn't mention trips, grapples and the like, which also count, and are especially useful on the Fighter with their multiple attacks, and less useful for the three Dex-based skirmisher/scout classes. These are abilities that encourage stickiness that the other classes don't have. Stunning strike is closest, but that runs on a limited resource, so it can't be used long term protection.
Rather than a double standard, I would say you're stripping any and all standard and context from the abilities. All damage reductions are the same! All abilities are equivalent! All ACs are equally good! You're ignoring lots.
If you think that 18 is 2 to 4 more than 17, I think we see where the problem is. My Ranger had 20 AC at level 2. High AC isn't just for people with Heavy Armor.
Rogues don't need to hide for Sneak Attack if their target is next to one of their allies. Ranged Rogues tend to hide with their bonus action, but Melee Rogues don't tend to do that. Especially Melee Rogues that aren't the only Melee player in their party. Our group follows the rules when it comes to being able to Hide and being able to stay hidden. You can't just do a Bonus Action hide unless you have a place to hide. And if you leave that hiding place to go out and attack somebody, you're no longer hidden.
If you choose to not attack a Barbarian, what are the consequences? That he might lose his rage because he didn't take any damage? Rages are a far more limited resource than Stunning Strikes. Ignoring a Barbarian isn't any more of a problem than ignoring a Monk or a Rogue. Ignoring a Rogue is probably the most perilous thing to do. If they get Sneak Attack damage on their OA, they can make it really painful to run away from them. A Monk can do a Stunning Strike on his OA. What makes ignoring a Barbarian worse than ignoring a Monk or a Rogue? You're claiming that Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians have better OAs than Rogues? That's even worse math than pretending that 18 AC is 2-4 more AC than 17 AC. This isn't a double standard, this is just you being clueless.
The Protection Fighting Style is great at protecting other melee players, but you seem to have forgotten that it only lets you protect people within 5ft of you. And you're giving up 1 AC by choosing Protection instead of Defense. When you're grouped up close to somebody with the Protection Fighting Style, that makes your party much more vulnerable to area of effect spells. Ones that usually target Dex saves. Where having Evasion might come in really handy. If the enemy attacks somebody that isn't standing next to you, then your fighting style won't help. If you're facing an enemy with multi-attack, then your fighting style lets you affect just one of the attacks. But if your ranged allies are smart, they're not going to be standing next to your Paladin or Fighter. They won't be standing next to you to try to take advantage of your Protection Fighting Style. Your Protection Fighting Style will be useless at protecting your ranged allies.
Melee players tend to run towards the enemy and not hide behind cover. Ranged players don't tend to run towards the enemy during combat, and prefer to hide behind cover. If your ranged players are getting hit by archers and other ranged enemies, tell your ranged players to stop playing like idiots. Tell them to find cover and to stay as far away from the enemies as their attacks will allow. Melee players don't have that option to stay out of range of the ranged enemies and to hide behind cover. But ranged players do. Maybe the ranged players in your party play like idiots. Maybe its your fault. Maybe you're telling them to stand next to the tank because of his protection fighting style instead of letting them hide behind cover at the maximum distance they need in order to do their attacks.
It's funny how you talk about Wizard cantrips, but you forget that Rogues get access to Wizard cantrips just like Fighters get access to Wizard cantrips. And Rangers get access to Hunter's Mark just like Paladins do. So don't pretend that Wizard cantrips and Hunter's Mark is what make Fighters and Paladins better than Rogues and Rangers. Unless you want to keep using a double standard.
It's funny how you compare Stunning Strike to Hold Person. I'm sure those Paladins and Eldritch Knights are going to be quite successful casting and concentrating on Hold Person while they're tanking. Stunning Strike runs on limited resources, just like spells, but you get all your ki points back on a short rest, and you have a number of ki points equal to your own level. Spell slots are also a limited resource, but they don't come back on a short rest. Ki points aren't as limited as Spell slots. You're correct that they're both limited resources, but you're forgetting that they're not equally limited.
Yes, using Light or Medium Armor means that you want to get your Dexterity to 20. Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians can get their high AC without having to boost their Strength to 20, but getting your main attack stat to 20 has some useful advantages. Such as increasing your chance to hit and increasing your damage. A couple of things which go a long way to making you more sticky. A couple of things which make it a lot harder for enemies to ignore you. So this isn't a problem. Having 20 Dexterity as a Monk, Ranger, or Rogue does more than just increase your AC. If you're using the need to get 20 Dex as a disadvantage, then don't pretend that your Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin has 20 Strength. Unless you want to keep using a double standard.
No, you really don't. You're not actually following what I'm saying.
The fact that Rogues have to have an ally nearby the enemy completely and utterly defeats the point of calling them a tank. Tanks get between allies and enemies, not rely on enemies and allies to get together. I talked about Barbarians and OA at length. You're just bringing up the same old things, over and over, without actually adding anything new.
At this point, I'm just going to assume that you're confusing "tank" with "melee-range character" and move on. Good day.
So Rogue Sneak Attack wanting an ally nearby makes them not a tank, but the Protection Fighting Style only working when you have an ally nearby makes them a tank?
Once again, you're using a double standard.
Ok so people forget that swashbuckler is a archetype for rogues (look it up), along with defensive duelist feat some decent light armor and lots of dex (and maybe high con and the tough feat) you got yourself a annoyance tank! Take one level in warlock (because 1d8 hit dice vs other classes that get these cantrips) and take booming blade and you can poke something for even more damage and back up without feat of a attack and do even more when they move in to attack!
There I solved your rogue tank problem
You can also get Booming Blade just by being a High Elf Rogue.
Or you can go Arcane Trickster and get Booming Blade (and the Shield spell) that way. With the war caster feat and a one level dip in Fighter you can get the Defense Fighting Style, the ability to use shields, the ability to cast Shield while using a Shield and a Rapier, the ability to cast Booming Blade as an opportunity attack, and advantage on concentration checks when you're using Shadow Blade (which gives you advantage in Dim Light or Darkness, i.e. automatic Sneak Attack).