So some people in this thread don't know how magic works, as per the PHB you can only cast one spell a turn ONE
Incorrect. The only restriction is that casting a bonus action spell prevents casting any other non-cantrip spell. If something gives you two unrestricted actions, you can cast two spells (this is mostly relevant to action surge).
So some people in this thread don't know how magic works, as per the PHB you can only cast one spell a turn ONE, it doesn't matter if one is a bonus action or not, now take in mind that cantrips don't count toward this limit. So if your spell costs a spell slot you can only use ONE PER TURN UNLESS ONE IS A CANTRIP OR REACTION!!!!
Casting more than one spell a turn is spell jammer homebrew rules, probably because you have watched too much critical role and wasn't aware that wasn't normal rules and even then IT IS A FEAT.
So when I say meta magic doesn't effect damage or how many spells you can cast in one turn I am correct.
To review once more: on your turn you can cast one spell that uses a spell slot per turn, one cantrip per turn and one reaction spell per turn. Casting more than one per turn in a homebrew rule and really strong witch is why when I use this rule in my games the player must use one additional spell slot of the level of the extra spell they are going to cast and this keeps them from being too powerful
I've never played spell jammer, I've yet to watch Critical Role. My interpretation comes directly from the PHB. See PHB chapter 10, page 202-205, casting a spell for all the rules. The part that you are referring to pertains only to Bonus Action spells:
Bonus Action
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
It's a specific rule that only applies if you've cast a bonus action spell. Admittedly, this isn't much of an issue for sorcerers in general since none of their metamagic allows for the casting of two leveled spells, but I wasn't claiming that either. As for your assertion that you were correct about meta magic affecting damage or allowing the casting of more than one spell, you are both wrong and correct, depending on how you look at it. I will refer you back to my post #163 for my explanations as to how meta magic could be seen as increasing damage. But if you are looking for something similar to the Warlock's Agonizing Blast invocation, the cleric's potent spellcasting, or similar options; then no it doesn't increase damage. The only way that metamagic allows for an increase in the number of spells is if you consider Twin spell increasing the number of spells or you look at an example like casting Fireball. Casting Fireball normally uses up your full action and you'd have to have a bonus action cantrip to cast another and sorcerer doesn't currently have access to one aside from Quickened Spell. However, Quickened Spell could be cast on either Fireball or the cantrip (unless you wanted to cast Mending in combat for some reason, Sorcerer/Battle Smith Artificer multiclass maybe... that would have to be the action since it takes a full minute to cast) to allow for an extra spell to be cast that round. Both of us acknowledged that point.
Also witch bolt sucks, only the initial damage is up cast otherwise it always does 1d12 and that cost a action and the effect ends when the creature moves 30 feet away and it's a concentration spell. Just use cantrips you will do more damage
Never said Witch Bolt was good. I even said that the damage over time spells could use up multiple actions like Witch Bolt, which I don't consider a good thing except for in very niche cases. I just said that it was an example and I agree with you on why it's troublesome. I just didn't want to look through the spells to find one that was a better example when I knew that one would at least give the idea.
So some people in this thread don't know how magic works, as per the PHB you can only cast one spell a turn ONE
Incorrect. The only restriction is that casting a bonus action spell prevents casting any other non-cantrip spell. If something gives you two unrestricted actions, you can cast two spells (this is mostly relevant to action surge).
If I'm the "some people in this thread", clearly I'm not the only one.
Edit: I went back to #163 to clarify a point about distant spell where my wording may have been misconstrued as saying something that I was not intending it to mean.
Well if you have the rule I don't know what you don't understand, if you want to cast spell thatbis a bonus action you can't cast a spell another spell, any way you spin it, you only get one spell a turn, minus cantrips. Doesn't matter if you use the bous action first or second, the reading says "you can't have cast another spell" and "you can't cast any more spells during your turn" now triggering you have already cast is not casting a spell and does not use a spell slot. Like if you use flame sphere or bigbys hand you can use a bonus action and the use a full spell
Well if you have the rule I don't know what you don't understand, if you want to cast spell thatbis a bonus action you can't cast a spell another spell, any way you spin it, you only get one spell a turn, minus cantrips. Doesn't matter if you use the bous action first or second, the reading says "you can't have cast another spell" and "you can't cast any more spells during your turn" now triggering you have already cast is not casting a spell and does not use a spell slot. Like if you use flame sphere or bigbys hand you can use a bonus action and the use a full spell
You are misstating the rules.
1. Most spells require an Action to cast. 2. Some spells require a Bonus Action to cast, if a spell is cast as a Bonus Action then it is the only non-Cantrip spell you can cast during your turn that round. 3. Some Spells require a Reaction to cast.
So ONLY if you use a Bonus Action is the only time you are limited to the ability to cast any other spells during your turn. Even if you can take a Reaction during your turn or you get an additional Action (Action Surge for example). Example: Quickened Fireball which gets Counterspelled cannot be Counterspelled by the original caster, they would still be able to case Firebolt that turn.
If you use Action Surge you can cast two Action casting time spells AND a Reaction all during your turn. Example: Fireball, which gets Counterspelled, so you Counterspell the Counterspell, Action Surge to cast Invisibility on yourself.
Hope that clarifies what you are saying versus the way the rules work. It seems you are trying to expand a Specific to a General rule, rather than having the Specific supercede the General rule in the specific case.
Well if you have the rule I don't know what you don't understand, if you want to cast spell thatbis a bonus action you can't cast a spell another spell, any way you spin it, you only get one spell a turn, minus cantrips. Doesn't matter if you use the bous action first or second, the reading says "you can't have cast another spell" and "you can't cast any more spells during your turn" now triggering you have already cast is not casting a spell and does not use a spell slot. Like if you use flame sphere or bigbys hand you can use a bonus action and the use a full spell
If you cast a spell as a Bonus Action you cannot cast another spell in that turn except a Cantrip. We all agree on that.
That is not precisely the same as saying you can only cast one leveled spell a turn. If you somehow manage to get more than one full Action in a turn (multiclassing as a Fighter to pick up Action Surge, for example) and you use one of your full Actions to cast a leveled spell (NOT using a Bonus Action to cast that spell, using a full Action) you can still use your other full Action to cast another leveled spell.
Do you see how the rule of "if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell" does not apply in that case?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It's one of the weird quirks in the rules. If you try to cast Misty Step, and someone tries to Counterspell you, you can't cast Counterspell back at them to counteract their attempt to Counterspell you. Because if you cast a levelled spell as a Bonus Action, you can't cast a levelled spell as an Action or as a Reaction.
But if you cast Fireball as an action, and an enemy tries to Counterspell you, you can try to Counterspell their attempt to Counterspell you. Because you're casting a levelled spell as an action, and that doesn't prohibit you from casting a levelled spell as a Reaction, or as a second Action.
So not only could you cast Fireball and Counterspell in the same turn, but you could even cast a second Fireball that turn if you have two levels in Fighter for Action Surge.
Thank you Pedroig, Ophidimancer, and gabrielrockman for the excellent explanations about the instances where two leveled spells can be cast.
I'm wondering if I misunderstood Proxy James when I made my first post that started that. Perhaps they were focusing specifically on Sorcerer and Metamagic. If so, I apologize that I wasn't more clear. I had interpreted their message as saying that the bonus action spell rule was always in effect and not just when a bonus action spell was cast. Considering that quickened spell is the only option to really get a second spell cast (sorry Twinned Spell) and it does so by making a spell into a bonus action spell, it's conceivable that Proxy has been talking only about bonus action casts the entire time and that's why we've had the crosstalk. My only intention was to clarify that two leveled spells can be cast as the others I've mentioned have masterfully done in case others interpreted Proxy's meaning like I did. Thus, Fighter2/Sorcerer3+ can cast to level 1+ spells using Action Surge, but would be unable to also Quicken a spell.
As for metamagic specifics, Quickened spell does give you an additional spell cast when comparing Sorcerer vs Wizard and something like Fireball followed by Fire Bolt, which the wizard can't do. The wizard would have to choose to cast Flaming Sphere (as you pointed out) and then wait until the next turn to do something else. The sorcerer can Fireball AND Fire bolt in the same turn, which could potentially do more damage (all things being equal with fireball and a hit from Firebolt. Clearly, a miss from Fire bolt and/or unfavorable rolls for the sorcerer and favorable rolls for the wizard could negate that potential).
That is probably the best example I've given to show that metamagic can increase damage for a sorcerer. It gets even juicier if you Quicken Fireball and then Twin Firebolt. Basically, I'm looking at getting more damage put of any given scenario, especially compared to a wizard casting the same spell(s) in the same situation. That's the increase in damage that I see with metamagic and that I've understood others to infer when saying that they get increased damage from it. If your view is that increased damage is increased damage if and only if it's an ability like Agonizing Blast that adds your spellcasting modifier to each beam of Eldritch Blast, then you are correct that metamagic doesn't do that. But that view doesn't preclude the view that each metamagic can be viewed through a lens that damage was gained/increased through its use in a given scenario where that option wasn't normally available from also being correct.
Just a gentle reminder - can everyone please ensure they are following the site rules. I don't wish to lock this thread because people were rude to each other.
Why is Monk labeled “D” from levels 1-15? Extra Attack+Flurry of Blows at level 5 is 4 attacks. Even when you run out of ki you will still have 3. Despite what most people think, an unarmed strike does not have to be your fist so you can hold a spear for a slightly higher damage die. Stunning Strike increases critical hit fishing. By level 6 Ki-Empowered Strikes will help give a monk more reliable damage Ki points come back after a short or long rest so if you have more than one combat encounter a day this damage is reliable. Although monk is not a super strong damage dealer it should be more at “C” for 1-5. Maybe also “C” for 6-15. But I haven’t even gotten into race and archetype abilities yet.
They have very limited ability with control. What you are describing is a tank, sentinel is a feat and not a class feature. Bards and Wizards have spells they use for control whether is casting a spell to incapacitate the opponent or even casting something such as wall of fire to cut off a route of the field for gain.
Warlock is definitely a better face than a paladin if personality is not an issue, they get plenty of invocations and abilities to buff their face abilities.
The nature and reputation of the Paladin class makes it a better face. A devoted follower granted spells by a GOD goes to the best parties. Someone that has an bound to a mere 'otherworldly being' are allowed to the party only as curiosities. Too much fear of the unknown and of course "Only an otherworldly? Maybe some day he will make it to Demi-God."
Sometimes the fluff matters.
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Incorrect. The only restriction is that casting a bonus action spell prevents casting any other non-cantrip spell. If something gives you two unrestricted actions, you can cast two spells (this is mostly relevant to action surge).
I've never played spell jammer, I've yet to watch Critical Role. My interpretation comes directly from the PHB. See PHB chapter 10, page 202-205, casting a spell for all the rules. The part that you are referring to pertains only to Bonus Action spells:
Bonus Action
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
It's a specific rule that only applies if you've cast a bonus action spell. Admittedly, this isn't much of an issue for sorcerers in general since none of their metamagic allows for the casting of two leveled spells, but I wasn't claiming that either. As for your assertion that you were correct about meta magic affecting damage or allowing the casting of more than one spell, you are both wrong and correct, depending on how you look at it. I will refer you back to my post #163 for my explanations as to how meta magic could be seen as increasing damage. But if you are looking for something similar to the Warlock's Agonizing Blast invocation, the cleric's potent spellcasting, or similar options; then no it doesn't increase damage. The only way that metamagic allows for an increase in the number of spells is if you consider Twin spell increasing the number of spells or you look at an example like casting Fireball. Casting Fireball normally uses up your full action and you'd have to have a bonus action cantrip to cast another and sorcerer doesn't currently have access to one aside from Quickened Spell. However, Quickened Spell could be cast on either Fireball or the cantrip (unless you wanted to cast Mending in combat for some reason, Sorcerer/Battle Smith Artificer multiclass maybe... that would have to be the action since it takes a full minute to cast) to allow for an extra spell to be cast that round. Both of us acknowledged that point.
Never said Witch Bolt was good. I even said that the damage over time spells could use up multiple actions like Witch Bolt, which I don't consider a good thing except for in very niche cases. I just said that it was an example and I agree with you on why it's troublesome. I just didn't want to look through the spells to find one that was a better example when I knew that one would at least give the idea.
If I'm the "some people in this thread", clearly I'm not the only one.
Edit: I went back to #163 to clarify a point about distant spell where my wording may have been misconstrued as saying something that I was not intending it to mean.
Well if you have the rule I don't know what you don't understand, if you want to cast spell thatbis a bonus action you can't cast a spell another spell, any way you spin it, you only get one spell a turn, minus cantrips. Doesn't matter if you use the bous action first or second, the reading says "you can't have cast another spell" and "you can't cast any more spells during your turn" now triggering you have already cast is not casting a spell and does not use a spell slot. Like if you use flame sphere or bigbys hand you can use a bonus action and the use a full spell
You are misstating the rules.
1. Most spells require an Action to cast.
2. Some spells require a Bonus Action to cast, if a spell is cast as a Bonus Action then it is the only non-Cantrip spell you can cast during your turn that round.
3. Some Spells require a Reaction to cast.
So ONLY if you use a Bonus Action is the only time you are limited to the ability to cast any other spells during your turn. Even if you can take a Reaction during your turn or you get an additional Action (Action Surge for example). Example: Quickened Fireball which gets Counterspelled cannot be Counterspelled by the original caster, they would still be able to case Firebolt that turn.
If you use Action Surge you can cast two Action casting time spells AND a Reaction all during your turn. Example: Fireball, which gets Counterspelled, so you Counterspell the Counterspell, Action Surge to cast Invisibility on yourself.
Hope that clarifies what you are saying versus the way the rules work. It seems you are trying to expand a Specific to a General rule, rather than having the Specific supercede the General rule in the specific case.
If you cast a spell as a Bonus Action you cannot cast another spell in that turn except a Cantrip. We all agree on that.
That is not precisely the same as saying you can only cast one leveled spell a turn. If you somehow manage to get more than one full Action in a turn (multiclassing as a Fighter to pick up Action Surge, for example) and you use one of your full Actions to cast a leveled spell (NOT using a Bonus Action to cast that spell, using a full Action) you can still use your other full Action to cast another leveled spell.
Do you see how the rule of "if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell" does not apply in that case?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It's one of the weird quirks in the rules. If you try to cast Misty Step, and someone tries to Counterspell you, you can't cast Counterspell back at them to counteract their attempt to Counterspell you. Because if you cast a levelled spell as a Bonus Action, you can't cast a levelled spell as an Action or as a Reaction.
But if you cast Fireball as an action, and an enemy tries to Counterspell you, you can try to Counterspell their attempt to Counterspell you. Because you're casting a levelled spell as an action, and that doesn't prohibit you from casting a levelled spell as a Reaction, or as a second Action.
So not only could you cast Fireball and Counterspell in the same turn, but you could even cast a second Fireball that turn if you have two levels in Fighter for Action Surge.
Thank you Pedroig, Ophidimancer, and gabrielrockman for the excellent explanations about the instances where two leveled spells can be cast.
I'm wondering if I misunderstood Proxy James when I made my first post that started that. Perhaps they were focusing specifically on Sorcerer and Metamagic. If so, I apologize that I wasn't more clear. I had interpreted their message as saying that the bonus action spell rule was always in effect and not just when a bonus action spell was cast. Considering that quickened spell is the only option to really get a second spell cast (sorry Twinned Spell) and it does so by making a spell into a bonus action spell, it's conceivable that Proxy has been talking only about bonus action casts the entire time and that's why we've had the crosstalk. My only intention was to clarify that two leveled spells can be cast as the others I've mentioned have masterfully done in case others interpreted Proxy's meaning like I did. Thus, Fighter2/Sorcerer3+ can cast to level 1+ spells using Action Surge, but would be unable to also Quicken a spell.
As for metamagic specifics, Quickened spell does give you an additional spell cast when comparing Sorcerer vs Wizard and something like Fireball followed by Fire Bolt, which the wizard can't do. The wizard would have to choose to cast Flaming Sphere (as you pointed out) and then wait until the next turn to do something else. The sorcerer can Fireball AND Fire bolt in the same turn, which could potentially do more damage (all things being equal with fireball and a hit from Firebolt. Clearly, a miss from Fire bolt and/or unfavorable rolls for the sorcerer and favorable rolls for the wizard could negate that potential).
That is probably the best example I've given to show that metamagic can increase damage for a sorcerer. It gets even juicier if you Quicken Fireball and then Twin Firebolt. Basically, I'm looking at getting more damage put of any given scenario, especially compared to a wizard casting the same spell(s) in the same situation. That's the increase in damage that I see with metamagic and that I've understood others to infer when saying that they get increased damage from it. If your view is that increased damage is increased damage if and only if it's an ability like Agonizing Blast that adds your spellcasting modifier to each beam of Eldritch Blast, then you are correct that metamagic doesn't do that. But that view doesn't preclude the view that each metamagic can be viewed through a lens that damage was gained/increased through its use in a given scenario where that option wasn't normally available from also being correct.
Just a gentle reminder - can everyone please ensure they are following the site rules. I don't wish to lock this thread because people were rude to each other.
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
Why is Monk labeled “D” from levels 1-15? Extra Attack+Flurry of Blows at level 5 is 4 attacks. Even when you run out of ki you will still have 3. Despite what most people think, an unarmed strike does not have to be your fist so you can hold a spear for a slightly higher damage die. Stunning Strike increases critical hit fishing. By level 6 Ki-Empowered Strikes will help give a monk more reliable damage Ki points come back after a short or long rest so if you have more than one combat encounter a day this damage is reliable. Although monk is not a super strong damage dealer it should be more at “C” for 1-5. Maybe also “C” for 6-15. But I haven’t even gotten into race and archetype abilities yet.
They have very limited ability with control. What you are describing is a tank, sentinel is a feat and not a class feature. Bards and Wizards have spells they use for control whether is casting a spell to incapacitate the opponent or even casting something such as wall of fire to cut off a route of the field for gain.
what about blood hunters?
Blood Hunters are very good until 11th level, after which they aren't that good.
still, they are awesome
Curious where you'd add in artificer?
Why would bard be bad at utility and skills when they get jack of all trades, giving them half their proficiency bonus to all skills?
*Laughs in DEX-Fighter with profficienty in intimidation*
A battle master with Skill Expertise and Commanding Presence is actually decently competitive in social situations.
Yeah the d8's (eventually d12s) in checks is pretty good for social encounters.
Ambush makes them pretty decent for stealth if you go dex fighter and its always better to go first in initiative.
Overall they have less versatility than ranger but definitely more than Monk and Barbarian.
Ranger relies so much on Conjure Animals late game for damage.
Warlock is definitely a better face than a paladin if personality is not an issue, they get plenty of invocations and abilities to buff their face abilities.
The nature and reputation of the Paladin class makes it a better face. A devoted follower granted spells by a GOD goes to the best parties. Someone that has an bound to a mere 'otherworldly being' are allowed to the party only as curiosities. Too much fear of the unknown and of course "Only an otherworldly? Maybe some day he will make it to Demi-God."
Sometimes the fluff matters.