I was building a kensei archer and started to look into some multiclassing options. This lead me to trying to maximize dpr and the number of attacks with the build.
Samurai gives you 3 attacks, actions surge, archery fighting style and advantage if you don't have it otherwise. Kensei gives you unarmored defense, movement speed, deflect missiles and most importantly, 1d4 to ranges attacks and ranges attack as bonus action. Hunter gives you extra attack that you need to spend on a second target 5ft away from your primary target and hunters mark. Alternatively ranger levels can be replaced by rogue levels for sneak attack or more kensei levels for evasion. Sharpshooter let's you ignore cover and gives you +10 to damage. With elven accuracy and archery fighting style, you can probably still hit most targets even with -5 penalty to hit.
So, you get 4 attacks on your primary target per turn that deal 1d10+1d4+15 damage per shot + extra attack on another target if one is standing near the primary foe. If you put on hunters mark, that is 1d6 extra on each attack. So your theoretical second turn nova attack with action surge would be (let's throw in a +3 longbow there):
7*(1d10+1d4+1d6+18), average 137,5 damage if everything hits. And with elven accuracy, +3 weapon and archery fighting style, is possible to do.
Adding that ranger 4 gives you more attacks and damage, but you give up some things for it. You could go samurai 16 instead for an extra attack, but you would have to give up your advantage for it, and it's not worth it with ea+ss. Going to monk 8 would instead give you 5ft extra speed, more powerful missile deflection, deft strike and evasion.
The main advantage of multiclassing fighter with monk is that you get your 4th attack at level 15 instead of level 20. The opportunity cost is the second use of action surge and that action surge gives you 3 extra attacks instead of 4. So your Nova damage decreases a little, but you get it at a level that you are more likely to play than level 20.
Is this just a theoretical exercise or are planning on playing an archer?
If you want to consider a build at level 20, you have to get there. What does the character look like at level 1? What direction do you take them at the beginning before they start to multi-class? Which branch happens first?
The second thing you should think about is how do you want to play this character? At the beginning they are motivated to accomplish what? How do they mature? What is going to make them want to divert their focus?
For me, playing the game is more interesting than min/maxing the character.
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That is all well and good, but it is irrational to assume that others either have or should have your view point, especially when context cues reveal that this is likely not the case. There is nothing wrong with someone finding enjoyment by playing a different way or even just from the exercise of theorycrafting a build.
To be clear, I am not saying that I personally do not agree with the need of character story to be paired with mechanics, but rather that there is no need to gatekeep.
Is this just a theoretical exercise or are planning on playing an archer?
If you want to consider a build at level 20, you have to get there. What does the character look like at level 1? What direction do you take them at the beginning before they start to multi-class? Which branch happens first?
The second thing you should think about is how do you want to play this character? At the beginning they are motivated to accomplish what? How do they mature? What is going to make them want to divert their focus?
For me, playing the game is more interesting than min/maxing the character.
Mostly theoretical exercise since I don't have as much opportunities to play as I would like. I agree that playing the game is more interesting than min/maxing, but beggars can't be choosers.
The build is not very hard to justify storywise and is open to many different types of characters. Fighter and monk don't have as much story hooks baked into the character class as for example paladin or a warlock.
For the progression, it is probably the best to start with fighter because it avoids having many "dead" levels and monks are much harder to play at low levels. So probably
Level 1: Fighter, archery fighting style
Level 2: action surge
Level 3: Martial archetype
Level 4: ASI, Elven accuracy or sharpshooter
Level 5: extra attack
Level 6: ASI Elven accuracy or sharpshooter. Possible break off point so start monk.
level 7: if you continued fighter, proficiency to wis saves and use wis for persuasion. If monk, unarmored ac and martial arts
Level 8: if fighter ASI, dex 20. If monk, ki usage and 10ft extra movement
Level 9: if fighter, reroll failed saves. If monk, kensei comes online with bonus action attack, dex to long sword, extra ranged damage and other stuff.
Level 10: if fighter, tireless spirit. If monk, asi to dex 20
Level 11: if fighter, extra attack. If monk, return to fighter now for wisdom saves
Level 12: if fighter, asi to wis 18. If you took monk earlier, ASI for wis 18
Level 13: if fighter, start monk now. If monk, fighter for rerolling saves.
Level 14: if fighter, monk gives you extra movement speed and ki. If monk, fighter gives you tireless spirit
Level 15: fighter becomes kensei, monk gets extra attack.
So, I would probably go fighter 6, monk 4, fighter fighter 12. So you at level 15 you have 20 unarmored AC, 4 attacks, and all the other goodies. Then maybe monk the rest of the way to get evasion, resilient dex and deft strike? Or alternatively rest to fighter for rapid strike, but that's more of a melee option because you want to keep your advantage with sharpshooter. But in melee you would have 4 longsword attacks + two unarmed strikes if you give up advantage for it.
Kensai's Shot and Fighting spirit both require a bonus action to activate, so you couldn't have both active at the same time. It's not a bad thing, just means that you have to choose which to use once you have both.
Going with Ranger would give you a second fighting style that would likely go wasted. Defensive Fighting Style requires armor, Two weapon Fighting is mostly redundant to Martial Arts and getting the Fighting Style only ups the damage die from a d4 to a d6, and Dueling only works with a melee weapon. That's probably the best, but it would require putting the bow away to take advantage of the +2 and any unarmed strikes wouldn't benefit. Hunter's Mark would put in more work here than sneak attack, since sneak attack only gets 2d6 at rogue 4 and Hunters Mark can apply to each attack against the marked creature. Fighter 11 would give you 3 attacks for a potential 3d6. It is a bonus action to contend with Fighting Spirit and Kensai's shot, not to mention martial arts or a ki activated disengage or dodge (something that makes cunning action less interesting in this build). Getting Hunters Mark on a main target and Kensai's shot activated on the next round could give and average of 6 extra damage per shot and Horde Breaker would be another chance for an extra 1d4 (2.5 average) from Kensai's shot. If you skipped, Ranger to get Rapid Strike instead, you could have access to more shots more regularly.
I do think that a different take on this build could be to go with crossbow expert and a Hand Crossbow. Hand Crossbow would be the ranged option for Kensai weapons as it lacks the heavy and special properties. The main draw would be the ability to attack without disadvantage while within 5 ft of a hostile character since I've already touched on the bonus action overload and the 1d4 per attack will likely be better than the bonus action attack. As such, it would only fit a particular visual and may not be worth the opportunity cost for most players.
One thing this build would have is an upgraded OA while wielding a ranged weapon. Being able to always have a 1d4 unarmed strike limits the "exposure" that many people feel when leaving a hand open to either attack with a bow or cast spells and thus forgoing a melee weapon.
The extra attacks from ranger and fighter don't stack together. You'd get 2 from fighter (level 5 and 10), or 1 from ranger. So you'd have 3 attacks in an action. The magic archer could be a better idea, but it's up to you.
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The extra attacks from ranger and fighter don't stack together. You'd get 2 from fighter (level 5 and 10), or 1 from ranger. So you'd have 3 attacks in an action. The magic archer could be a better idea, but it's up to you.
My initial thought was the same, but they're only going max Ranger 4. By the description, I'm guessing they meant Horde Breaker from Hunter which gives a situational additional attack once per turn if there is another target within 5 feet of the first and it's part of the attack on the primary target. Basically, it's the scene in Robin Hood:Prince of Thieves where Robin shoots two arrows at the same time and hits two enemies. It's akin to Death Cleric's Reaper and the bonus damage off of Green Flame Blade.
Ah. What do you think of arcane archer over samurai?
Battle Master
A Battle Master with a Longbow and Sharpshooter is disgusting. Add Elven Accuracy to it... especially you can get a Familiar.
5 d10 superiority dice would likely ease the congestion of bonus action options while remaining relevant. Battlemaster is a good option. Arcane Archer with 4 shots, Magic Arrow and Curving Shot wouldn't be a bad option, but is probably not as good if you have advantage as much as you would like, unless you treat your arcane shots like smites and wait for crits. Curving shot is then more of a "I just don't miss" -Hawkeye style ability. Battlemaster is likely the superior option and Champion actually becomes reasonable in this build since you're other classes are giving you more variety. Getting 3 rolls per attack and 3-4 attacks per turn would almost guarentee a crit every other round on a 19-20. That would make Ranger much more attractive.
Hmm... I was thinking that samurai would fit with monk better, but the bonus action overload keeps it from working. So battlemaster is probably better then. Unfortunately that also means that you need to get the advantage dome other way than fighting spirit. Precision shot is an alternative to advantage, but gets used up comparatively fast. Champion would be good for crit fishing, but this build doesn't benefit from crits nearly as much as rogue archer would. And champion has no built-in way to get advantage.
There is still 5 levels left to multiclass, and you only need 2 warlock levels for darkness/devils sight combo for reliable advantage... But that feels kind of tacked on and would require significant charisma investment. Greater Invisibility from Archfey would fit better, but isn't available with just 5 levels...
I think Samurai makes for marginally better archer than battlemaster for the first levels, but battlemaster plays better together with monk. So, swapping samurai for battlemaster is probably the better bet in the long run. It's also more versatile and gives you more options than just focusing on dpr.
Hmm... I was thinking that samurai would fit with monk better, but the bonus action overload keeps it from working. So battlemaster is probably better then. Unfortunately that also means that you need to get the advantage dome other way than fighting spirit. Precision shot is an alternative to advantage, but gets used up comparatively fast. Champion would be good for crit fishing, but this build doesn't benefit from crits nearly as much as rogue archer would. And champion has no built-in way to get advantage.
There is still 5 levels left to multiclass, and you only need 2 warlock levels for darkness/devils sight combo for reliable advantage... But that feels kind of tacked on and would require significant charisma investment. Greater Invisibility from Archfey would fit better, but isn't available with just 5 levels...
I think Samurai makes for marginally better archer than battlemaster for the first levels, but battlemaster plays better together with monk. So, swapping samurai for battlemaster is probably the better bet in the long run. It's also more versatile and gives you more options than just focusing on dpr.
As long as someone else was providing Advantage via Faerie Fire or similar, it's not as big of a deal. This would also be a good slot for the Crossbow Expert feat if you had someone who could prone a character regularly since you could point blank that character and get advantage that way, but that seems a bit cheesy.
As for Devil's Sight/Darkness you would only need a 13 charisma to make it work since Darkness doesn't require a save or an attack. It's only if you wanted more that it would be a problem. Grabbing Hexblade could make that a non-issue, except that your AC is dependent on DeX and Wis. However, you'd have to go Hexblade 3 for pact of the Blade. A lower AC wouldn't be as big of a deal while in Darkness, but hexblade could give you the Hexblade's Curse for that champion crit Fisher feel for 1 minute on one creature per rest. It would also give a small heal once the creature died. Fiendlock would give some temp HP for every kill, celestial would give some healing utility. Going Tomelock or chainlock could work thematically and mechanically for the advantage or extra utility. Plus that would keep with your theme of going at least 4 to get the ASI.
If you did decide to go rogue, I think Swashbuckler would be the way to go, giving you a free mini disengage if you decided to Agile Parry to bump your AC making the unarmed melee strike to trigger it and Fancy Footwork. This would allow you to still trigger Kensai's shot or another bonus action and still make the majority of your attacks at range. You would have a slight initiative bonus and could trigger sneak attack in most scenarios where you didn't have advantage. Scout's Skirmisher would also help with keeping away from enemies.
I would just do strait Battle Master tbh. If you want to squeeze out another shot go Crossbow Expert and Hand Crossbow. At level 20 that’s 5 shots/Turn. (IMHO Longbow is better for range and to skip Crossbow Expert for a different* feat.) With Sharpshooter and Elven Acuracy and d12 Superiority Dice & Maneuvers.. Take a feat* to get Find Familiar....
If I were to MC anything it might be a 2lvl dip to Variant Ranger for the free Hunter’s Mark, Deft Explorer for either Canny or Tireless, and the second Fighting Style to pick up either Defense or Druidic Warrior.
If I HAD to use Kensei I would probably just split it with Variant Ranger. They are the most specifically Dex/Wis/con classes out there.
I was building a kensei archer and started to look into some multiclassing options. This lead me to trying to maximize dpr and the number of attacks with the build.
Point buy: 8/15/14/10/15/8
Wood elf Kensei 4/samurai 12/Hunter 4.
Feats: elven accuracy, sharpshooter, martial adept (precision strike)
ASI: max dex and wis, rest to con.
Samurai gives you 3 attacks, actions surge, archery fighting style and advantage if you don't have it otherwise. Kensei gives you unarmored defense, movement speed, deflect missiles and most importantly, 1d4 to ranges attacks and ranges attack as bonus action. Hunter gives you extra attack that you need to spend on a second target 5ft away from your primary target and hunters mark. Alternatively ranger levels can be replaced by rogue levels for sneak attack or more kensei levels for evasion. Sharpshooter let's you ignore cover and gives you +10 to damage. With elven accuracy and archery fighting style, you can probably still hit most targets even with -5 penalty to hit.
So, you get 4 attacks on your primary target per turn that deal 1d10+1d4+15 damage per shot + extra attack on another target if one is standing near the primary foe. If you put on hunters mark, that is 1d6 extra on each attack. So your theoretical second turn nova attack with action surge would be (let's throw in a +3 longbow there):
7*(1d10+1d4+1d6+18), average 137,5 damage if everything hits. And with elven accuracy, +3 weapon and archery fighting style, is possible to do.
Adding that ranger 4 gives you more attacks and damage, but you give up some things for it. You could go samurai 16 instead for an extra attack, but you would have to give up your advantage for it, and it's not worth it with ea+ss. Going to monk 8 would instead give you 5ft extra speed, more powerful missile deflection, deft strike and evasion.
The main advantage of multiclassing fighter with monk is that you get your 4th attack at level 15 instead of level 20. The opportunity cost is the second use of action surge and that action surge gives you 3 extra attacks instead of 4. So your Nova damage decreases a little, but you get it at a level that you are more likely to play than level 20.
Is this just a theoretical exercise or are planning on playing an archer?
If you want to consider a build at level 20, you have to get there. What does the character look like at level 1? What direction do you take them at the beginning before they start to multi-class? Which branch happens first?
The second thing you should think about is how do you want to play this character? At the beginning they are motivated to accomplish what? How do they mature? What is going to make them want to divert their focus?
For me, playing the game is more interesting than min/maxing the character.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
That is all well and good, but it is irrational to assume that others either have or should have your view point, especially when context cues reveal that this is likely not the case. There is nothing wrong with someone finding enjoyment by playing a different way or even just from the exercise of theorycrafting a build.
To be clear, I am not saying that I personally do not agree with the need of character story to be paired with mechanics, but rather that there is no need to gatekeep.
Mostly theoretical exercise since I don't have as much opportunities to play as I would like. I agree that playing the game is more interesting than min/maxing, but beggars can't be choosers.
The build is not very hard to justify storywise and is open to many different types of characters. Fighter and monk don't have as much story hooks baked into the character class as for example paladin or a warlock.
For the progression, it is probably the best to start with fighter because it avoids having many "dead" levels and monks are much harder to play at low levels. So probably
Level 1: Fighter, archery fighting style
Level 2: action surge
Level 3: Martial archetype
Level 4: ASI, Elven accuracy or sharpshooter
Level 5: extra attack
Level 6: ASI Elven accuracy or sharpshooter. Possible break off point so start monk.
level 7: if you continued fighter, proficiency to wis saves and use wis for persuasion. If monk, unarmored ac and martial arts
Level 8: if fighter ASI, dex 20. If monk, ki usage and 10ft extra movement
Level 9: if fighter, reroll failed saves. If monk, kensei comes online with bonus action attack, dex to long sword, extra ranged damage and other stuff.
Level 10: if fighter, tireless spirit. If monk, asi to dex 20
Level 11: if fighter, extra attack. If monk, return to fighter now for wisdom saves
Level 12: if fighter, asi to wis 18. If you took monk earlier, ASI for wis 18
Level 13: if fighter, start monk now. If monk, fighter for rerolling saves.
Level 14: if fighter, monk gives you extra movement speed and ki. If monk, fighter gives you tireless spirit
Level 15: fighter becomes kensei, monk gets extra attack.
So, I would probably go fighter 6, monk 4, fighter fighter 12. So you at level 15 you have 20 unarmored AC, 4 attacks, and all the other goodies. Then maybe monk the rest of the way to get evasion, resilient dex and deft strike? Or alternatively rest to fighter for rapid strike, but that's more of a melee option because you want to keep your advantage with sharpshooter. But in melee you would have 4 longsword attacks + two unarmed strikes if you give up advantage for it.
Kensai's Shot and Fighting spirit both require a bonus action to activate, so you couldn't have both active at the same time. It's not a bad thing, just means that you have to choose which to use once you have both.
Going with Ranger would give you a second fighting style that would likely go wasted. Defensive Fighting Style requires armor, Two weapon Fighting is mostly redundant to Martial Arts and getting the Fighting Style only ups the damage die from a d4 to a d6, and Dueling only works with a melee weapon. That's probably the best, but it would require putting the bow away to take advantage of the +2 and any unarmed strikes wouldn't benefit. Hunter's Mark would put in more work here than sneak attack, since sneak attack only gets 2d6 at rogue 4 and Hunters Mark can apply to each attack against the marked creature. Fighter 11 would give you 3 attacks for a potential 3d6. It is a bonus action to contend with Fighting Spirit and Kensai's shot, not to mention martial arts or a ki activated disengage or dodge (something that makes cunning action less interesting in this build). Getting Hunters Mark on a main target and Kensai's shot activated on the next round could give and average of 6 extra damage per shot and Horde Breaker would be another chance for an extra 1d4 (2.5 average) from Kensai's shot. If you skipped, Ranger to get Rapid Strike instead, you could have access to more shots more regularly.
I do think that a different take on this build could be to go with crossbow expert and a Hand Crossbow. Hand Crossbow would be the ranged option for Kensai weapons as it lacks the heavy and special properties. The main draw would be the ability to attack without disadvantage while within 5 ft of a hostile character since I've already touched on the bonus action overload and the 1d4 per attack will likely be better than the bonus action attack. As such, it would only fit a particular visual and may not be worth the opportunity cost for most players.
One thing this build would have is an upgraded OA while wielding a ranged weapon. Being able to always have a 1d4 unarmed strike limits the "exposure" that many people feel when leaving a hand open to either attack with a bow or cast spells and thus forgoing a melee weapon.
The extra attacks from ranger and fighter don't stack together. You'd get 2 from fighter (level 5 and 10), or 1 from ranger. So you'd have 3 attacks in an action. The magic archer could be a better idea, but it's up to you.
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My initial thought was the same, but they're only going max Ranger 4. By the description, I'm guessing they meant Horde Breaker from Hunter which gives a situational additional attack once per turn if there is another target within 5 feet of the first and it's part of the attack on the primary target. Basically, it's the scene in Robin Hood:Prince of Thieves where Robin shoots two arrows at the same time and hits two enemies. It's akin to Death Cleric's Reaper and the bonus damage off of Green Flame Blade.
Ah. What do you think of arcane archer over samurai?
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Battle Master
A Battle Master with a Longbow and Sharpshooter is disgusting. Add Elven Accuracy to it... especially you can get a Familiar.
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5 d10 superiority dice would likely ease the congestion of bonus action options while remaining relevant. Battlemaster is a good option. Arcane Archer with 4 shots, Magic Arrow and Curving Shot wouldn't be a bad option, but is probably not as good if you have advantage as much as you would like, unless you treat your arcane shots like smites and wait for crits. Curving shot is then more of a "I just don't miss" -Hawkeye style ability. Battlemaster is likely the superior option and Champion actually becomes reasonable in this build since you're other classes are giving you more variety. Getting 3 rolls per attack and 3-4 attacks per turn would almost guarentee a crit every other round on a 19-20. That would make Ranger much more attractive.
Hmm... I was thinking that samurai would fit with monk better, but the bonus action overload keeps it from working. So battlemaster is probably better then. Unfortunately that also means that you need to get the advantage dome other way than fighting spirit. Precision shot is an alternative to advantage, but gets used up comparatively fast. Champion would be good for crit fishing, but this build doesn't benefit from crits nearly as much as rogue archer would. And champion has no built-in way to get advantage.
There is still 5 levels left to multiclass, and you only need 2 warlock levels for darkness/devils sight combo for reliable advantage... But that feels kind of tacked on and would require significant charisma investment. Greater Invisibility from Archfey would fit better, but isn't available with just 5 levels...
I think Samurai makes for marginally better archer than battlemaster for the first levels, but battlemaster plays better together with monk. So, swapping samurai for battlemaster is probably the better bet in the long run. It's also more versatile and gives you more options than just focusing on dpr.
As long as someone else was providing Advantage via Faerie Fire or similar, it's not as big of a deal. This would also be a good slot for the Crossbow Expert feat if you had someone who could prone a character regularly since you could point blank that character and get advantage that way, but that seems a bit cheesy.
As for Devil's Sight/Darkness you would only need a 13 charisma to make it work since Darkness doesn't require a save or an attack. It's only if you wanted more that it would be a problem. Grabbing Hexblade could make that a non-issue, except that your AC is dependent on DeX and Wis. However, you'd have to go Hexblade 3 for pact of the Blade. A lower AC wouldn't be as big of a deal while in Darkness, but hexblade could give you the Hexblade's Curse for that champion crit Fisher feel for 1 minute on one creature per rest. It would also give a small heal once the creature died. Fiendlock would give some temp HP for every kill, celestial would give some healing utility. Going Tomelock or chainlock could work thematically and mechanically for the advantage or extra utility. Plus that would keep with your theme of going at least 4 to get the ASI.
If you did decide to go rogue, I think Swashbuckler would be the way to go, giving you a free mini disengage if you decided to Agile Parry to bump your AC making the unarmed melee strike to trigger it and Fancy Footwork. This would allow you to still trigger Kensai's shot or another bonus action and still make the majority of your attacks at range. You would have a slight initiative bonus and could trigger sneak attack in most scenarios where you didn't have advantage. Scout's Skirmisher would also help with keeping away from enemies.
I would just do strait Battle Master tbh. If you want to squeeze out another shot go Crossbow Expert and Hand Crossbow. At level 20 that’s 5 shots/Turn. (IMHO Longbow is better for range and to skip Crossbow Expert for a different* feat.) With Sharpshooter and Elven Acuracy and d12 Superiority Dice & Maneuvers.. Take a feat* to get Find Familiar....
If I were to MC anything it might be a 2lvl dip to Variant Ranger for the free Hunter’s Mark, Deft Explorer for either Canny or Tireless, and the second Fighting Style to pick up either Defense or Druidic Warrior.
If I HAD to use Kensei I would probably just split it with Variant Ranger. They are the most specifically Dex/Wis/con classes out there.
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Battle master/Assassin/Gloom Stalker