No, it isn't literally an "unarmed spell attack," it is literally a "melee spell attack" and that is neither a melee attack with a weapon or unarmed strike. If you want to rely on cantrips as a core to your build then I'd advise you look at the melee cantrips presented in the SCAG. As currently written your build is clearly relying on ranged attacks and shifting to Shocking Grasp in melee, all you have to do to correct it is switch to an infused melee weapon.
Please keep any disagreements with other posters from other threads out of the Throwdowns, this is meant to be a friendly competition and GoodBovine has done nothing but point out that your build as is neither matches the rules nor the spirit of this particular Throwdown (as I would have had they not done it first).
Now your changing the rules. Is it OK to attack with cantrips or not? Also, it was GB who said that you had to use ""unarmed spell attack", which Shocking Grasp is. I just pointed out that there not really such a thing but if it was, it would follow the rules. But can you then please update the rules to show exactly how often it is allowed to attack with spells and which spells we are allowed to use to attack?
And I agree, it would be nice if GB could keep his personal feelings out of this Throwdown. It would have been much nicer if he had posted his own build instead of finding this thread simply to criticize. Well said.
You are literally the only one who has brought up outside-of-topic information to discredit someone who has posted a valid criticism of your build.
That said... personally I think Shocking Grasp should qualify for the purposes of qualifying for Gish. On a technicality, yes, it is considered a "melee spell attack" and not necessarily an attack with a weapon or unarmed attack, but the description of how the spell works relies on what is, visually, an unarmed attack. Still... I don't think it's a particularly good match with your build. If you've got the mobile feat you don't really need to rely on Shocking Grasp to stun enemies. A Battlesmith gets two attacks, so you'd get a bit more versatility out of carrying an infused Longsword. Making that small change would make your character more appropriate to the spirit of the contest, and honestly would make them more viable overall.
Calm, Lost. Calm. There's nothing riding on the competition. It's just a way to have some funzies in the forum. Nobody is backsassing your build, people are simply stating it doesn't quite fit the intent as given.
The Blade cantrips from SCAG require the user to attack with their melee weapon, using their attacking stat/modifier rather than their casting ability, and basically apend magical effects onto a bog-standard sword stroke. That's why they work for gishy characters. A character that can choose between their blade and their Shocking Grasp is fine as well; in this thread the character simply needs to favor the blade save when the situation warrants otherwise. A Battlesmith using their sword on lightly armored or swarming targets while saving Shocking Grasp for heavily (metal) armored foes or for when they need to retreat would be perfectly acceptable. The weapon simply needs to be there, and as more than a token.
Almost entered a Battlesmith myself, but I had Aine already built and ready, it was easier to refit her for the purpose than to spit out an entirely new character. The subclass does make for good spellblades, it just requires a different approach than most.
I'm just asking for clarifications on the rules. The build obviously has melee weapons since they start with them but it seems like a weird restriction to only be allowed to use certain spells in certain situations (as in your example of "when the situation warrants otherwise") and if so it should be stated in the rules. If we assume that this is a level 9 or above fight then attacking with a melee weapon while hasted and then use Shocking Grasp to back away would be perfectly fine, yes?
And like I already mentioned, this build in no way relies on spell attacks, it's just that it can use that very effectively as well. I just didn't want to cheese it too much by going the GWM/Mobile route. :P But I can do that if you'd like . ;)
You are literally the only one who has brought up outside-of-topic information to discredit someone who has posted a valid criticism of your build.
personally I think Shocking Grasp should qualify for the purposes of qualifying for Gish. On a technicality, yes, it is considered a "melee spell attack" and not necessarily an attack with a weapon or unarmed attack, but the description of how the spell works relies on what is, visually, an unarmed attack. Still... I don't think it's a particularly good match with your build. If you've got the mobile feat you don't really need to rely on Shocking Grasp to stun enemies. A Battlesmith gets two attacks, so you'd get a bit more versatility out of carrying an infused Longsword. Making that small change would make your character more appropriate to the spirit of the contest, and honestly would make them more viable overall.
Well yes, since GB hasn't even contributed to the thread with his own build but rather went in with wrongful information with no goal to contribute to the actual topic.
And thanks for the advice. The build does carry an infused longsword. As mentioned earlier, for pure close combat cheesiness GWM and Mobile might be a better if somewhat less defensive build. I went this route just for the fun of being able to having a ridiculously high AC.
The rules are intended to elicit characters whose primary goal in combat is to strike an enemy with their weapon. Your first choice, as a proper 'Gish' the way DorkForge is looking for, is to hit something with your sword or sword-equivalent. You use your magical ability to make yourself better at hitting things with your sword, to make enemies worse at avoiding getting hit with your sword, or to give yourself additional utility and ways to get between moments of sword-hitting, but the principle combat method of a gish is "hit target with sword, ideally using magic to make it better".
There are corner cases, and 'gishes' (I really do detest that word -_-) who lean more on the magic than the martial, but your character as written relied heavily on mobility and aerial avoidance to pepper an enemy with long-distance spells, switching to Shocking Grasp only long enough to open up the range and go back to flying spellblasting. While effective, that's not a gish battle plan, that's a typical caster battle plan.
The OP is very clear that you focus must be on melee using a weapon or unarmed strike, having or holding a weapon is not fulfilling that requirement. Having Shocking Grasp and using it from time to time is perfectly acceptable, again your build is focusing on ranged attacks and using Shocking Grasp when you get closed on, that is not meeting the rules or spirit of the competition.
There is nothing personal about this, all builds must just meet the laid out requirements for these competitions to have any meaning and be distinguishable from each other (the original series is currently on Throwdown #5).
The OP is very clear that you focus must be on melee using a weapon or unarmed strike, having or holding a weapon is not fulfilling that requirement. Having Shocking Grasp and using it from time to time is perfectly acceptable, again your build is focusing on ranged attacks and using Shocking Grasp when you get closed on, that is not meeting the rules or spirit of the competition.
And again I'm asking for clarifications as to exactly where that line is drawn. Many of the other builds mentioned multiple ranged spells and my build mentions multiple options for both melee fighting as well as ranged fighting. The build itself is actually not focused on ranged attacks but if that is what confuses you I am happy to change it.
Grab 1 ranged dmg cantrip w/ a save, and any other fun or RP ones (you'll be taking both gfb/bb eventually). Healing word, absorb elements and your choice of divine origin extra spell. I like inflict wounds.
At 5th level: Sorc1/Hexblade4
Place your ASI/Feat into elven accuracy (18 Cha now). Select spells from the warlock that control the battlefield, socialize or aid in your defense (shield, armor or Agathys). (Although not assumed) You can find yourself a rod of the pactkeeper to increase those DCs. @1 and 4 hexblade you get 2/1 additional cantrips. Select Eldritch blast and gfb or bb and pick the other up at 4hexblade (5th character level) at this point you can now be successful at either range or melee. Select the invocations agonizing and repelling blast. Pact choice should be blade, cuz 'melee'.
-With scale mail(50g) and shield(10g) your lookin at 18 AC @ 2, disadvantage stealth.
At 11th level: 6DivineSoul/5hexblade
Pick up Eldritch Smite and replace agonizing blast with grasp of hadar (more control w/push n pull, but less ranged dmg(encourages melee)).
Place 2nd feat into warcaster. Select spells from sorc/cleric that aid yourself and group action economy, hinder/control enemies. Select Twinned and quicken metas. Use excess spellslots to create lvl 1 warlock slots, bb/smite every turn.
Spirit guardians is your bread and butter, quickening EB to pull creatures out of range inwards. Or booming Blade/quicken EB repelling to force them to move to re-engage, but still in range of SG. Getting up from ES knockdown also sets off BB movement dmg.
At 17th level: 12DS/5HB
Feat 3: (optional)crossbow expert if you find yourself casting EB in melee, removes disadvantage. If not, then increase that charisma.
Feat 4: if you didn't bump Cha last time, then now's the time. And if you did then I would improve any survivability available. Toughness or Luck.
By now you have access to some solid spells, choose spells that are Twinned well, like: polymorph and haste but also pick some that do not consume concentration. Hopefully any control and social spells were taken in warlock lvls, feel free to choose more if needed but try to grab a resurrection/restoration/and either Heal or life transference.
System hasn't changed much, BB/quickrepelEB are basic attacks at this point. Choose between controlling the battle or spirit guardians. If controlling, try to use hold spells. You'll love that crit bb/quickinflict wounds/ES.
You also choose a 3rd meta @10 sorc(15th character lvl) choose either empowered for damage or extended for the longer durations of spells.
At 20th level and final thoughts: 15DS/5HB
Last few levels of sorcerer should be tidying up any spells you no longer have use for. If possible grab the summon/conjure spells, magic circle, planar binding. If you use these in conjunction with extended meta, you should be able to create yourself a small army lasting between ½-1 year. If you went with empowered, grab a few more damage spells.
The OP is very clear that you focus must be on melee using a weapon or unarmed strike, having or holding a weapon is not fulfilling that requirement. Having Shocking Grasp and using it from time to time is perfectly acceptable, again your build is focusing on ranged attacks and using Shocking Grasp when you get closed on, that is not meeting the rules or spirit of the competition.
And again I'm asking for clarifications as to exactly where that line is drawn. Many of the other builds mentioned multiple ranged spells and my build mentions multiple options for both melee fighting as well as ranged fighting. The build itself is actually not focused on ranged attacks but if that is what confuses you I am happy to change it.
I neither want to nor think it would be a good idea to establish hard guidelines on exactly how much a charcter should be attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike, the intent of the concept is clear, there is now plenty of examples to refer to.
These are quotes taken directly from your build:
Level 5:
"Keep spamming firebolts/rays from afar while your Steel Defender distracts your opponent. You can also cast invisibility on yourself or a Web at your opponent. Faerie Fire can also be helpful."
Level 20 and Final Thoughts:
"...while you stay away and throw whatever spells you want from far away that your opponents will never catch you (flying is fun!)."
Your build being focused on ranged attacks and staying out of melee isn't in contention here, you have clearly stated it as the strategy and built accordingly for it. You don't even mention infusing a longsword until the level 17 section, where it very much is a token gesture to the concept with no real intention on using it.
The OP is very clear that you focus must be on melee using a weapon or unarmed strike, having or holding a weapon is not fulfilling that requirement. Having Shocking Grasp and using it from time to time is perfectly acceptable, again your build is focusing on ranged attacks and using Shocking Grasp when you get closed on, that is not meeting the rules or spirit of the competition.
And again I'm asking for clarifications as to exactly where that line is drawn. Many of the other builds mentioned multiple ranged spells and my build mentions multiple options for both melee fighting as well as ranged fighting. The build itself is actually not focused on ranged attacks but if that is what confuses you I am happy to change it.
I neither want to nor think it would be a good idea to establish hard guidelines on exactly how much a charcter should be attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike, the intent of the concept is clear, there is now plenty of examples to refer to.
These are quotes taken directly from your build:
Level 5:
"Keep spamming firebolts/rays from afar while your Steel Defender distracts your opponent. You can also cast invisibility on yourself or a Web at your opponent. Faerie Fire can also be helpful."
Level 20 and Final Thoughts:
"...while you stay away and throw whatever spells you want from far away that your opponents will never catch you (flying is fun!)."
Your build being focused on ranged attacks and staying out of melee isn't in contention here, you have clearly stated it as the strategy and built accordingly for it. You don't even mention infusing a longsword until the level 17 section, where it very much is a token gesture to the concept with no real intention on using it.
OK, since you seems so confused by your cherry picked examples I'll gladly change it for you. Say no more! :)
This has gotten me thinking a bit about things, and I've got another concept that comes to mind. This is based on something I saw in Adventure League, although the person who did it was a hexblade/sorcerer mix (although I never did figure out what specific subclass they were).
I would rather start with Sorcerer, but you're going to want more options with armor and weapons, so it's best to start with Rogue. Right off the bat take expertise in Stealth. Combined with the Mark of Shadow's Cunning Intuition, that's a +7+1d4 to every stealth attempt. The mark also grants Minor Illusion right off the bat, which is a potentially extremely useful cantrip.
At 5th level: Level 2 Rogue/Level 3 Shadow Sorcerer
Now we're getting to the good stuff! As a sorcerer make sure you pick up the Booming Blade cantrip, and for metamagic you want Quickened Spell and Subtle Spell. You probably won't get much opportunity to use your metamagic, though, because your sorcery points have another use: As a shadow sorcerer, if you use two sorcery points you can cast darkness, but with the added benefit that you can still see clearly in your own darkness. Darkness can be attached to an object instead of just a point in space, so cast it on your blade, and suddenly you're a 15' ball of impenetrable darkness and death. Stroll right up on enemies and hit them with booming blade sneak attacks. Within the darkness you can freely step away from your enemy without triggering opportunity attacks, and bonus action stealth so they can't even attack you at disadvantage without finding you first. The Mark of Shadow also lets you cast invisibility once per long rest... this is a great utility spell to have at the ready.
At 11th level: Level 5 Swashbuckler Rogue/Level 6 Shadow Sorcerer
Swashbuckler gets a few redundancies here when paired with the Shadow Sorcerer darkness, since the ability to avoid opportunity attacks isn't necessary when you're shrouded in mystical darkness, but it still gives you nice options for when you're trying to save sorcery points. The main bonus is Rakish Audacity, which pairs well with Sorc since it adds your CHA modifier to your initiative, giving you more chances to act first in combat. Aside from that, you get two ASI's, so use them to round off DEX and CON first, then go ahead and max out DEX.
These are all the Sorc levels you're taking, but you get one last fun ability as a Shadow Sorcerer. As a bonus action, you can summon a creepy shadow dog for 3 Sorcery points... once it has a target it's completely relentless... there's no way to hide from it and it can knock enemies prone. Its stats aren't great, but it seems fun and any extra damage is good damage.
At 17th level: Level 11 Swashbuckler Rogue/Level 6 Shadow Sorcerer
You're gonna hit two more ASIs through rogue, so go ahead and max out CHA at this point. You're still only up to level 3 spells, but really the focus should be on outside-of-combat utility, since you're relying more on Rogue when it comes to combat. The CHA score still helps in combat, since you end up with a +10 to initiative, and you can use Panache to force an enemy to have disadvantage against anyone but yourself. Make sure you have Persuasion as one of your Expertises. With Reliable Talent at level 11, this guarantees you, at minimum, a 27 on Persuasion and Stealth checks.
At 20th level and final thoughts:
One more ASI, so you might as well drop it in CON for the boost to health and to keep up your concentration more easily. You also get blindsense and the ability to give yourself advantage on Athletics/Acrobatics checks with a bonus action. For the most part you just want to get as high a level as possible in Rogue to maximize your sneak attack damage. Your core tactic hasn't really changed since level 3... surround yourself with mystical darkness, get right in someone's face and lay down booming blade sneak attacks, then step away and stealth, forcing them to move if they want to accomplish anything. Alternatively, trust the darkness to hide you and use your bonus action to summon your hound, which will harrass your foe aggressively. If you're really looking to deal damage and you miss with your booming blade, you can quicken another cast of it to take another swing as a bonus action. If you come across an enemy who can see through your darkness, you're still a swashbuckler, so hit and run booming blades are still on the table.
I'll pop in with one more concept, which I can't really figure out how to optimize in any way, but which feels like.... something? Some kinda concept? The 'Crit Fishing Fist Gish', or 'Fish'!
It's a different approach to Smite, using the Four Elements Monk's Fangs of the Fire Snake. Like Divine Smite, Fangs lets you choose whether to spend another ki point for a bonus 1d10 fire damage after you hit, so you can confirm whether you've critted before expending that resource. Unlike Divine Smite though, Fangs requires you to have already turned it on for the turn with a ki point so.... its not really actually that great unless you have plenty of ki to spare. Ah well.
Crit fishing involves one mandatory feature (being able to pump more dice onto the attack after it crits), and two optional setup enhancements (expanded crit range, advantage). Four Elements monk is particularly squeezed for space and stats on this, because you can't just splash monk if you want enough Ki to actually be able to use it reliably. Between that and Monk just being very good through 14... I really only see six levels to play with to enhance the fishing. Champion expands crit range, but doesn't help set up advantage on its own. The Mounted Combatant feat does set up advantage on medium and smaller creatures though.... Samurai sets up advantage, but doesn't help on crit range. Hexblade also expands crit range, but is stat intensive to splash. Paladin adds more pumpable dice, but is stat intensive. Rogue also adds pumpable dice, but isn't compatable with unarmed strikes. Elven Accuracy makes reliable advantage even more useful.
I think that this can be built as a Mounted Combatant 4Elements Monk 14/Champion 6 (reliable crits easy stats, full feat progression, but not as much damage), or as a Mounted Combatant 4Elements Monk/Paladin 3/Warlock 3 (stat squeezed and low hp, -2 feats, only reliably crits one enemy per short rest, but does more damage per crit) or Monk 14/Warlock 6 (a little less stat squeezed than the Paladin multi, only -1 feats, but still only reliably crits one enemy per short rest). It also should be noted, the /Warlock builds rely on your DM being willing to consider "unarmed strike" as an elligible Hex Warrior weapon, which may not be RAW. For that reason, and because I need to take a couple of feats... I'll just build the Monk/Champion for this post.
Level 1: Aereni Wood Elf Monk 1
Stats 10/15(17)/14/8/15(16)/8
Could start as a fighter instead, and play the first few levels as a more conventional knight using a finesse weapon... but I'd rather lean into the unarmed strikes early and then grow into mounted knighthood later.
AC 16, HP 10, +5 to hit with unarmed Strikes for 1d4+3 damage, two-three attacks per round (1 Action, 1-2 Bonus).
Start with Expertise in whatever you like, but I'd recommend Animal Handling since Charisma will be low, and DM may require Animal Handling checks often for a non-class-feature Warhorse or other mount used in combat. Athletics would be a strong alternative, because while we plan to get Advantage from Mounted Combatant while striking 15 feet away, there probably will be no shortage of fights where our mount is taken away from us, and we're forced to Shove an enemy prone and punch them from 5-foot melee range instead if we want to crit fish. With a poor strength and a poor Charisma, shoring up either of those with Expertise (and/or deciding which stat gets the 10) is important, and may depend on what you expect from your DM. Holy crap, Animal Handling is Wisdom-based?! Why have I always thought it was Cha?! Yeah, put your 10 in strength, and take Expertise in Athletics, every time.
Level 5: Monk (4Elements) 5
Stats 10/18/14/8/16/8 (+1 Dex)
Rush to Monk 4 to get your first ASI, which will be used on the Elven Accuracy feat to pick up +1 Dex. We don't have a way of reliably creating advantage yet, but the half-stat is needed, and the advantage enhancement on unarmed strikes will be nice when and if it happens
The first Elemental Discipline we pick up is Fangs of the Fire Snake, to be able to start making Unarmed Strikes that deal fire damage with 15-foot reach on our turns. If we do manage to land a crit, for 1 more ki point, we can add another 2d10 fire damage on the hit.
At Monk 5, we have two attacks per attack action, 1d6 punches, and Stunning Strike as an option
AC 17, HP 38, +7 to hit with 1d6+4 unarmed strikes (possibly from 15-foot reach and fire damage), three-four attacks per round (2 action, 1-2 Bonus). SS DC is 14.
Level 11: Monk (4Elements) 5/Fighter (Champion) 6
Stats 10/20/14/8/16/8 (+2 Dex)
At Fighter 1, we pick up a mostly-useless Fighting Style. Dueling or Archery will likely be the only ones we reasonably may ever use: Dueling if we carry a Quarterstaff or Dagger in our off-hand to use on rounds where we aren't Fangin' or Archery for the rare occassion that we catch a missile and throw it back with Deflect Missiles. Dueling is more likely.
At Fighter 4 pick up Mounted Combatant, so that we can start having default advantage (which is actually super advantage with Elven Accuracy) against unmounted medium or smaller creatures. This also gets us a 19-20 crit range, so with super-advantage, we now have something like a 25ish% chance to crit on each attack we make.
Continue to Fighter 6 to pick up an ASI for +2 Dex, before turning back to Monk (where every level from now on will go for more Ki points)
AC 18, HP 86, +9 to hit with 1d6+5 unarmed strikes (possibly from 15-foot reach and fire damage), three-four attacks per round (2 action, 1-2 Bonus), advantage on all attacks against most medium and smaller targets with a high crit chance (doing 2d6+2d10+5 fire damage). SS DC is 15.
At Monk 6, we'll pick up Fist of Unbroken Air, and also swap out Elemental Attunement for either Flames of the Phoenix (for an expensive Fireball) or Water Whip (which is probably unncessary given our mounted move speed and redundant with Fist, but could be fun to use sometimes around hazardous terrain).
At Monk 7 you have Evasion, which makes you pretty good at fighting spellcasters that rely on Dex-save evocations, and Stillness of Mind, which makes you pretty good at fighting spellcasters that rely on Wis-save mind influencing spells.
At Monk 8, an ASI for +2 Wisdom* (*or see the note about Elemental Adept (Fire) below, which probably isn't RAW but would be a nice gimme from a kind DM)
At Monk 11, pick up whichever of the above Disciplines you didn't already take, or pick up Ride the Wind instead to be more magical.
AC 19, HP 128, +11 to hit with 1d8+5 unarmed strikes (possibly from 15-foot reach and fire damage), three-four attacks per round (2 action, 1-2 bonus), advantage on all attacks against most medium and smaller targets with a high crit chance (doing 2d8+2d10+5 fire damage). SS DC is 18.
At Monk 14 (level 20), we pick up Diamond Soul for proficiency in all saves, making us a truly effective combatant against enemy spellcasters
Wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that we may have obtained a Huge or larger mount by this point in our career as a plot reward, or a Large mount that flies, but even with just a plain old Warhorse our Mounted Combat ability to take damage on its behalf keeps it kicking through most fights.
AC 20, HP 149, +11 to hit with 1d8+5 unarmed strikes (possibly from 15-foot reach and fire damage), three-four attacks per round (2 action, 1-2 bonus), advantage on all attacks against most medium and smaller targets with a high crit chance (doing 2d8+2d10+5 fire damage). SS DC is 19.
What I like about this guy is.... even if you fall off your horse and have your source of Advantage taken away, you're still a pretty decent Monk! Maybe you have to
Note: I've gone back and forth about whether to argue that Fangs of the Fire Snake counts as a "spell." RAW, it isn't, it's a "discipline," and only those "disciplines" that tell you they cast a spell cast a spell. However, it's magical, and a sympathetic DM might let you consider it to be one. If that's the case, Elemental Adept (Fire) becomes a very strong feat choice, taking the place of the first of your two +2 WIS ASIs. -1 AC and -1 DC on Stunning Strike, Fist of Unbroken Air, and Fireball is a small price to pay for being able to ignore resistance against our go-to attack mode (which will become more and more common in middle and late tiers) and improved average damage rolls, so if you're able to talk your DM into allowing it, take it
Honestly I love the large variety of playstyles these all have. Time to have a game where each one is played together...
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"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Level 20 build: Eladrin (Mordenkains) College of Swords Bard 17/ Swashbuckler 3
Stats: Str 8, Dex 14+2, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15+1 (Standard array)
Background: Acolyte
Well, now that the deadline has passed, I'll start by voting for Ling here. I don't know if it's the most optimized build, but it's got really good theming and really takes advantage of the combination of swordfighting and magic.
Level 20 build: Eladrin (Mordenkains) College of Swords Bard 17/ Swashbuckler 3
Stats: Str 8, Dex 14+2, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15+1 (Standard array)
Background: Acolyte
Well, now that the deadline has passed, I'll start by voting for Ling here. I don't know if it's the most optimized build, but it's got really good theming and really takes advantage of the combination of swordfighting and magic.
The deadline actually has another 3 and a half hours left but no worries, consider your vote cast!
Level 20 build: Eladrin (Mordenkains) College of Swords Bard 17/ Swashbuckler 3
Stats: Str 8, Dex 14+2, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15+1 (Standard array)
Background: Acolyte
Well, now that the deadline has passed, I'll start by voting for Ling here. I don't know if it's the most optimized build, but it's got really good theming and really takes advantage of the combination of swordfighting and magic.
Thank you (and it's early!). I am SO torn between stuff: both of your builds, and the bugbear cleric/ranger seem so fun, and provide utility and exploration benefits. Who would I have more fun with rp wise might decide it....
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
Would it be possible for you to make a list of the eligible builds, as well as the number of votes for them, and add it to the original post?
I usually make a list of eligible builds, it just takes me a little time to compile them and depending what my day is like it can take a little to throw up, but should be up today. As for vote counts I only tally votes once voting is closed (at which point the list of builds is updated with how many votes each got and a winner is announced).
You are literally the only one who has brought up outside-of-topic information to discredit someone who has posted a valid criticism of your build.
That said... personally I think Shocking Grasp should qualify for the purposes of qualifying for Gish. On a technicality, yes, it is considered a "melee spell attack" and not necessarily an attack with a weapon or unarmed attack, but the description of how the spell works relies on what is, visually, an unarmed attack. Still... I don't think it's a particularly good match with your build. If you've got the mobile feat you don't really need to rely on Shocking Grasp to stun enemies. A Battlesmith gets two attacks, so you'd get a bit more versatility out of carrying an infused Longsword. Making that small change would make your character more appropriate to the spirit of the contest, and honestly would make them more viable overall.
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I'm just asking for clarifications on the rules. The build obviously has melee weapons since they start with them but it seems like a weird restriction to only be allowed to use certain spells in certain situations (as in your example of "when the situation warrants otherwise") and if so it should be stated in the rules. If we assume that this is a level 9 or above fight then attacking with a melee weapon while hasted and then use Shocking Grasp to back away would be perfectly fine, yes?
And like I already mentioned, this build in no way relies on spell attacks, it's just that it can use that very effectively as well. I just didn't want to cheese it too much by going the GWM/Mobile route. :P But I can do that if you'd like . ;)
Well yes, since GB hasn't even contributed to the thread with his own build but rather went in with wrongful information with no goal to contribute to the actual topic.
And thanks for the advice. The build does carry an infused longsword. As mentioned earlier, for pure close combat cheesiness GWM and Mobile might be a better if somewhat less defensive build. I went this route just for the fun of being able to having a ridiculously high AC.
The rules are intended to elicit characters whose primary goal in combat is to strike an enemy with their weapon. Your first choice, as a proper 'Gish' the way DorkForge is looking for, is to hit something with your sword or sword-equivalent. You use your magical ability to make yourself better at hitting things with your sword, to make enemies worse at avoiding getting hit with your sword, or to give yourself additional utility and ways to get between moments of sword-hitting, but the principle combat method of a gish is "hit target with sword, ideally using magic to make it better".
There are corner cases, and 'gishes' (I really do detest that word -_-) who lean more on the magic than the martial, but your character as written relied heavily on mobility and aerial avoidance to pepper an enemy with long-distance spells, switching to Shocking Grasp only long enough to open up the range and go back to flying spellblasting. While effective, that's not a gish battle plan, that's a typical caster battle plan.
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The OP is very clear that you focus must be on melee using a weapon or unarmed strike, having or holding a weapon is not fulfilling that requirement. Having Shocking Grasp and using it from time to time is perfectly acceptable, again your build is focusing on ranged attacks and using Shocking Grasp when you get closed on, that is not meeting the rules or spirit of the competition.
There is nothing personal about this, all builds must just meet the laid out requirements for these competitions to have any meaning and be distinguishable from each other (the original series is currently on Throwdown #5).
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And again I'm asking for clarifications as to exactly where that line is drawn. Many of the other builds mentioned multiple ranged spells and my build mentions multiple options for both melee fighting as well as ranged fighting. The build itself is actually not focused on ranged attacks but if that is what confuses you I am happy to change it.
Level 20 level split: Hexblade 5/ DivineSoul 15
Race: Half elf
Stats: 8/14/16/8/12/17 (racials included)
Background: your choice (Ravnica for more spells)
Starting level: Sorc 1 (con save)
Grab 1 ranged dmg cantrip w/ a save, and any other fun or RP ones (you'll be taking both gfb/bb eventually). Healing word, absorb elements and your choice of divine origin extra spell. I like inflict wounds.
At 5th level: Sorc1/Hexblade4
Place your ASI/Feat into elven accuracy (18 Cha now). Select spells from the warlock that control the battlefield, socialize or aid in your defense (shield, armor or Agathys). (Although not assumed) You can find yourself a rod of the pactkeeper to increase those DCs. @1 and 4 hexblade you get 2/1 additional cantrips. Select Eldritch blast and gfb or bb and pick the other up at 4hexblade (5th character level) at this point you can now be successful at either range or melee. Select the invocations agonizing and repelling blast. Pact choice should be blade, cuz 'melee'.
-With scale mail(50g) and shield(10g) your lookin at 18 AC @ 2, disadvantage stealth.
At 11th level: 6DivineSoul/5hexblade
Pick up Eldritch Smite and replace agonizing blast with grasp of hadar (more control w/push n pull, but less ranged dmg(encourages melee)).
Place 2nd feat into warcaster. Select spells from sorc/cleric that aid yourself and group action economy, hinder/control enemies. Select Twinned and quicken metas. Use excess spellslots to create lvl 1 warlock slots, bb/smite every turn.
Spirit guardians is your bread and butter, quickening EB to pull creatures out of range inwards. Or booming Blade/quicken EB repelling to force them to move to re-engage, but still in range of SG. Getting up from ES knockdown also sets off BB movement dmg.
At 17th level: 12DS/5HB
Feat 3: (optional)crossbow expert if you find yourself casting EB in melee, removes disadvantage. If not, then increase that charisma.
Feat 4: if you didn't bump Cha last time, then now's the time. And if you did then I would improve any survivability available. Toughness or Luck.
By now you have access to some solid spells, choose spells that are Twinned well, like: polymorph and haste but also pick some that do not consume concentration. Hopefully any control and social spells were taken in warlock lvls, feel free to choose more if needed but try to grab a resurrection/restoration/and either Heal or life transference.
System hasn't changed much, BB/quickrepelEB are basic attacks at this point. Choose between controlling the battle or spirit guardians. If controlling, try to use hold spells. You'll love that crit bb/quickinflict wounds/ES.
You also choose a 3rd meta @10 sorc(15th character lvl) choose either empowered for damage or extended for the longer durations of spells.
At 20th level and final thoughts: 15DS/5HB
Last few levels of sorcerer should be tidying up any spells you no longer have use for. If possible grab the summon/conjure spells, magic circle, planar binding. If you use these in conjunction with extended meta, you should be able to create yourself a small army lasting between ½-1 year. If you went with empowered, grab a few more damage spells.
Thoughts?
I neither want to nor think it would be a good idea to establish hard guidelines on exactly how much a charcter should be attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike, the intent of the concept is clear, there is now plenty of examples to refer to.
These are quotes taken directly from your build:
Level 5:
"Keep spamming firebolts/rays from afar while your Steel Defender distracts your opponent. You can also cast invisibility on yourself or a Web at your opponent. Faerie Fire can also be helpful."
Level 20 and Final Thoughts:
"...while you stay away and throw whatever spells you want from far away that your opponents will never catch you (flying is fun!)."
Your build being focused on ranged attacks and staying out of melee isn't in contention here, you have clearly stated it as the strategy and built accordingly for it. You don't even mention infusing a longsword until the level 17 section, where it very much is a token gesture to the concept with no real intention on using it.
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OK, since you seems so confused by your cherry picked examples I'll gladly change it for you. Say no more! :)
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This has gotten me thinking a bit about things, and I've got another concept that comes to mind. This is based on something I saw in Adventure League, although the person who did it was a hexblade/sorcerer mix (although I never did figure out what specific subclass they were).
Lelogish
Level 20 level split: Lvl 14 Swashbuckler Rogue/Lvl 6 Shadow Sorcerer
Race: Elf (Mark of Shadow)
Stats: Str 10 Dex 17 Con 11 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 16
Background: Charlatan
Starting level: Level 1 Rogue
I would rather start with Sorcerer, but you're going to want more options with armor and weapons, so it's best to start with Rogue. Right off the bat take expertise in Stealth. Combined with the Mark of Shadow's Cunning Intuition, that's a +7+1d4 to every stealth attempt. The mark also grants Minor Illusion right off the bat, which is a potentially extremely useful cantrip.
At 5th level: Level 2 Rogue/Level 3 Shadow Sorcerer
Now we're getting to the good stuff! As a sorcerer make sure you pick up the Booming Blade cantrip, and for metamagic you want Quickened Spell and Subtle Spell. You probably won't get much opportunity to use your metamagic, though, because your sorcery points have another use: As a shadow sorcerer, if you use two sorcery points you can cast darkness, but with the added benefit that you can still see clearly in your own darkness. Darkness can be attached to an object instead of just a point in space, so cast it on your blade, and suddenly you're a 15' ball of impenetrable darkness and death. Stroll right up on enemies and hit them with booming blade sneak attacks. Within the darkness you can freely step away from your enemy without triggering opportunity attacks, and bonus action stealth so they can't even attack you at disadvantage without finding you first. The Mark of Shadow also lets you cast invisibility once per long rest... this is a great utility spell to have at the ready.
At 11th level: Level 5 Swashbuckler Rogue/Level 6 Shadow Sorcerer
Swashbuckler gets a few redundancies here when paired with the Shadow Sorcerer darkness, since the ability to avoid opportunity attacks isn't necessary when you're shrouded in mystical darkness, but it still gives you nice options for when you're trying to save sorcery points. The main bonus is Rakish Audacity, which pairs well with Sorc since it adds your CHA modifier to your initiative, giving you more chances to act first in combat. Aside from that, you get two ASI's, so use them to round off DEX and CON first, then go ahead and max out DEX.
These are all the Sorc levels you're taking, but you get one last fun ability as a Shadow Sorcerer. As a bonus action, you can summon a creepy shadow dog for 3 Sorcery points... once it has a target it's completely relentless... there's no way to hide from it and it can knock enemies prone. Its stats aren't great, but it seems fun and any extra damage is good damage.
At 17th level: Level 11 Swashbuckler Rogue/Level 6 Shadow Sorcerer
You're gonna hit two more ASIs through rogue, so go ahead and max out CHA at this point. You're still only up to level 3 spells, but really the focus should be on outside-of-combat utility, since you're relying more on Rogue when it comes to combat. The CHA score still helps in combat, since you end up with a +10 to initiative, and you can use Panache to force an enemy to have disadvantage against anyone but yourself. Make sure you have Persuasion as one of your Expertises. With Reliable Talent at level 11, this guarantees you, at minimum, a 27 on Persuasion and Stealth checks.
At 20th level and final thoughts:
One more ASI, so you might as well drop it in CON for the boost to health and to keep up your concentration more easily. You also get blindsense and the ability to give yourself advantage on Athletics/Acrobatics checks with a bonus action. For the most part you just want to get as high a level as possible in Rogue to maximize your sneak attack damage. Your core tactic hasn't really changed since level 3... surround yourself with mystical darkness, get right in someone's face and lay down booming blade sneak attacks, then step away and stealth, forcing them to move if they want to accomplish anything. Alternatively, trust the darkness to hide you and use your bonus action to summon your hound, which will harrass your foe aggressively. If you're really looking to deal damage and you miss with your booming blade, you can quicken another cast of it to take another swing as a bonus action. If you come across an enemy who can see through your darkness, you're still a swashbuckler, so hit and run booming blades are still on the table.
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I'll pop in with one more concept, which I can't really figure out how to optimize in any way, but which feels like.... something? Some kinda concept? The 'Crit Fishing Fist Gish', or 'Fish'!
It's a different approach to Smite, using the Four Elements Monk's Fangs of the Fire Snake. Like Divine Smite, Fangs lets you choose whether to spend another ki point for a bonus 1d10 fire damage after you hit, so you can confirm whether you've critted before expending that resource. Unlike Divine Smite though, Fangs requires you to have already turned it on for the turn with a ki point so.... its not really actually that great unless you have plenty of ki to spare. Ah well.
Crit fishing involves one mandatory feature (being able to pump more dice onto the attack after it crits), and two optional setup enhancements (expanded crit range, advantage). Four Elements monk is particularly squeezed for space and stats on this, because you can't just splash monk if you want enough Ki to actually be able to use it reliably. Between that and Monk just being very good through 14... I really only see six levels to play with to enhance the fishing. Champion expands crit range, but doesn't help set up advantage on its own. The Mounted Combatant feat does set up advantage on medium and smaller creatures though.... Samurai sets up advantage, but doesn't help on crit range. Hexblade also expands crit range, but is stat intensive to splash. Paladin adds more pumpable dice, but is stat intensive. Rogue also adds pumpable dice, but isn't compatable with unarmed strikes. Elven Accuracy makes reliable advantage even more useful.
I think that this can be built as a Mounted Combatant 4Elements Monk 14/Champion 6 (reliable crits easy stats, full feat progression, but not as much damage), or as a Mounted Combatant 4Elements Monk/Paladin 3/Warlock 3 (stat squeezed and low hp, -2 feats, only reliably crits one enemy per short rest, but does more damage per crit) or Monk 14/Warlock 6 (a little less stat squeezed than the Paladin multi, only -1 feats, but still only reliably crits one enemy per short rest). It also should be noted, the /Warlock builds rely on your DM being willing to consider "unarmed strike" as an elligible Hex Warrior weapon, which may not be RAW. For that reason, and because I need to take a couple of feats... I'll just build the Monk/Champion for this post.
Level 1: Aereni Wood Elf Monk 1
but I'd recommend Animal Handling since Charisma will be low, and DM may require Animal Handling checks often for a non-class-feature Warhorse or other mount used in combat. Athletics would be a strong alternative, because while we plan to get Advantage from Mounted Combatant while striking 15 feet away, there probably will be no shortage of fights where our mount is taken away from us, and we're forced to Shove an enemy prone and punch them from 5-foot melee range instead if we want to crit fish. With a poor strength and a poor Charisma, shoring up either of those with Expertise (and/or deciding which stat gets the 10) is important, and may depend on what you expect from your DM.Holy crap, Animal Handling is Wisdom-based?! Why have I always thought it was Cha?! Yeah, put your 10 in strength, and take Expertise in Athletics, every time.Level 5: Monk (4Elements) 5
Level 11: Monk (4Elements) 5/Fighter (Champion) 6
Level 17: Monk (4Elements) 11/Fighter (Champion) 6
Level 20: Monk (4Elements) 14/Fighter (Champion) 6
What I like about this guy is.... even if you fall off your horse and have your source of Advantage taken away, you're still a pretty decent Monk! Maybe you have to
Note: I've gone back and forth about whether to argue that Fangs of the Fire Snake counts as a "spell." RAW, it isn't, it's a "discipline," and only those "disciplines" that tell you they cast a spell cast a spell. However, it's magical, and a sympathetic DM might let you consider it to be one. If that's the case, Elemental Adept (Fire) becomes a very strong feat choice, taking the place of the first of your two +2 WIS ASIs. -1 AC and -1 DC on Stunning Strike, Fist of Unbroken Air, and Fireball is a small price to pay for being able to ignore resistance against our go-to attack mode (which will become more and more common in middle and late tiers) and improved average damage rolls, so if you're able to talk your DM into allowing it, take it
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Honestly I love the large variety of playstyles these all have. Time to have a game where each one is played together...
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I have no idea who to vote for .... I just dread not being voted for.
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Well, now that the deadline has passed, I'll start by voting for Ling here. I don't know if it's the most optimized build, but it's got really good theming and really takes advantage of the combination of swordfighting and magic.
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The deadline actually has another 3 and a half hours left but no worries, consider your vote cast!
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Thank you (and it's early!). I am SO torn between stuff: both of your builds, and the bugbear cleric/ranger seem so fun, and provide utility and exploration benefits. Who would I have more fun with rp wise might decide it....
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VOTING NOW OPEN
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Would it be possible for you to make a list of the eligible builds, as well as the number of votes for them, and add it to the original post?
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I usually make a list of eligible builds, it just takes me a little time to compile them and depending what my day is like it can take a little to throw up, but should be up today. As for vote counts I only tally votes once voting is closed (at which point the list of builds is updated with how many votes each got and a winner is announced).
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