Generally what I'm seeing is that it might not be feasible to have good Dex, Wis, ok Con, AND still meet the INT prerequisite with point buy or standard array, but I typically roll my stats, and in my experience it's not so outside the realm of possibility that I'll have at least a 13 to throw into int, especially considering I can dump cha and even str if absolutely necessary.
This is also for a solo campaign, so as far as self self sufficiency and survivability go, rituals, familiar, shield, and absorb elements all sound pretty good too. I'll also be playing v.human to get Lucky at level 1 because I have my ASI's earmarked for Dex and Wis.
If I roll the stats well enough to be able to put a 13 into INT, I'll go for it. Otherwise, I'm sure I'll manage. The dice will tell.
If you have a need for all your ASIs then that's another reason why you wouldn't want to dump one of them for that second level of multiclassing.
And if this is for a solo campaign I suggest multiclassing into cleric. No need for Int and you get some much needed healing...
Generally what I'm seeing is that it might not be feasible to have good Dex, Wis, ok Con, AND still meet the INT prerequisite with point buy or standard array, but I typically roll my stats, and in my experience it's not so outside the realm of possibility that I'll have at least a 13 to throw into int, especially considering I can dump cha and even str if absolutely necessary.
This is also for a solo campaign, so as far as self self sufficiency and survivability go, rituals, familiar, shield, and absorb elements all sound pretty good too. I'll also be playing v.human to get Lucky at level 1 because I have my ASI's earmarked for Dex and Wis.
If I roll the stats well enough to be able to put a 13 into INT, I'll go for it. Otherwise, I'm sure I'll manage. The dice will tell.
If you have a need for all your ASIs then that's another reason why you wouldn't want to dump one of them for that second level of multiclassing.
And if this is for a solo campaign I suggest multiclassing into cleric. No need for Int and you get some much needed healing...
This is much better advice really. You become much more sustainable.
Hey, Monks only need to go to Monk 14 to do 99% of what they're about, and most Monk subclasses don't actually need Wisdom for anything other than AC and Stunning Strike. With other feats and features which provide defense in other manners, and a Monk's patient defense as an option.... really, you can get away with less than 20 Wisdom no problem.
I whipped up a Stout Halfling (to mitigate common Con saves in early levels before Monk 10, and provide +Dex, and have access to good defensive feat/features around luck) Drunken Monk 14 (to synergize with being missed by attacks)/ Divination Wizard 6 (to get the level 2 feature you wanted, but also stretch spell slots a little bit with the Wizard 6 feature, and to pick up 3rd level spells like Haste). It's a good build, to be honest:
Rituals through third level is most of the good ones
Proficiency in all saves
Immunity to Disease Poison late, or advantage/resistance against poison early from racial
AC 18 is perfectly decent, especially combined with Shield, Patient Defense, Portent, Lucky, and Second Chance
Absorb Elements, Evasion, and Deflect Arrows mitigate lower HP total
No need to take any spells that require a save against your DC, there's plenty of fun self-buff for a Monk like Misty Step, Blur, and Haste
If you're into the character concept, you can do it, don't let the haters tell you that you have to play a boring 8/15/15/8/15/8 stat spread to be a "good" monk.... especially if you're considering a solo campaign, where the DM by necessity is going to be tailoring the adventure to be fun and balanced for you, not for a theoretical group of optimized characters playing true to their role.
Hey, Monks only need to go to Monk 14 to do 99% of what they're about, and most Monk subclasses don't actually need Wisdom for anything other than AC and Stunning Strike. With other feats and features which provide defense in other manners, and a Monk's patient defense as an option.... really, you can get away with less than 20 Wisdom no problem.
I whipped up a Stout Halfling (to mitigate common Con saves in early levels before Monk 10, and provide +Dex, and have access to good defensive feat/features around luck) Drunken Monk 14 (to synergize with being missed by attacks)/ Divination Wizard 6 (to get the level 2 feature you wanted, but also stretch spell slots a little bit with the Wizard 6 feature, and to pick up 3rd level spells like Haste). It's a good build, to be honest:
Rituals through third level is most of the good ones
Proficiency in all saves
Immunity to Disease Poison late, or advantage/resistance against poison early from racial
AC 18 is perfectly decent, especially combined with Shield, Patient Defense, Portent, Lucky, and Second Chance
Absorb Elements, Evasion, and Deflect Arrows mitigate lower HP total
No need to take any spells that require a save against your DC, there's plenty of fun self-buff for a Monk like Misty Step, Blur, and Haste
If you're into the character concept, you can do it, don't let the haters tell you that you have to play a boring 8/15/15/8/15/8 stat spread to be a "good" monk.... especially if you're considering a solo campaign, where the DM by necessity is going to be tailoring the adventure to be fun and balanced for you, not for a theoretical group of optimized characters playing true to their role.
Just don't dump CON and lower Wisdom isn't as huge a deal.
Also be careful of white room high level builds...
As previously stated most campaigns end well before 14 th level.
Its a snapshot of a class that was whipped together for the sake of argument about wizard multiclasses with low intelligence, not a serious level-by-level breakdown of options for a specific build, I don't think it was necessary to do much more than provide what I did. But now that you point it out, were I to really try to squeeze the most versatility out of this for a solo experience that I could... I would indeed drop Con all the way down to 8 to squeeze more Strength and Charisma out of the build for well rounded survivability, thanks for the reminder.
Its a snapshot of a class that was whipped together for the sake of argument about wizard multiclasses with low intelligence, not a serious level-by-level breakdown of options for a specific build, I don't think it was necessary to do much more than provide what I did. But now that you point it out, were I to really try to squeeze the most versatility out of this for a solo experience that I could... I would indeed drop Con all the way down to 8 to squeeze more Strength and Charisma out of the build for well rounded survivability, thanks for the reminder.
Terrible idea as evidenced by the guides provided. But you can do you....
Hey, Monks only need to go to Monk 14 to do 99% of what they're about, and most Monk subclasses don't actually need Wisdom for anything other than AC and Stunning Strike. With other feats and features which provide defense in other manners, and a Monk's patient defense as an option.... really, you can get away with less than 20 Wisdom no problem.
I whipped up a Stout Halfling (to mitigate common Con saves in early levels before Monk 10, and provide +Dex, and have access to good defensive feat/features around luck) Drunken Monk 14 (to synergize with being missed by attacks)/ Divination Wizard 6 (to get the level 2 feature you wanted, but also stretch spell slots a little bit with the Wizard 6 feature, and to pick up 3rd level spells like Haste). It's a good build, to be honest:
Rituals through third level is most of the good ones
Proficiency in all saves
Immunity to Disease Poison late, or advantage/resistance against poison early from racial
AC 18 is perfectly decent, especially combined with Shield, Patient Defense, Portent, Lucky, and Second Chance
Absorb Elements, Evasion, and Deflect Arrows mitigate lower HP total
No need to take any spells that require a save against your DC, there's plenty of fun self-buff for a Monk like Misty Step, Blur, and Haste
If you're into the character concept, you can do it, don't let the haters tell you that you have to play a boring 8/15/15/8/15/8 stat spread to be a "good" monk.... especially if you're considering a solo campaign, where the DM by necessity is going to be tailoring the adventure to be fun and balanced for you, not for a theoretical group of optimized characters playing true to their role.
Yeah, you're arguing against a strawman that you built yourself, mate. A six level multiclass is completely different from a two-level dip. And no-one has said anything about how anyone should play a a"good" monk.
Also the question was if it was worth the dip for the portent alone. Which it really isn't. Can we please get back on topic now?
Hey, Monks only need to go to Monk 14 to do 99% of what they're about, and most Monk subclasses don't actually need Wisdom for anything other than AC and Stunning Strike. With other feats and features which provide defense in other manners, and a Monk's patient defense as an option.... really, you can get away with less than 20 Wisdom no problem.
I whipped up a Stout Halfling (to mitigate common Con saves in early levels before Monk 10, and provide +Dex, and have access to good defensive feat/features around luck) Drunken Monk 14 (to synergize with being missed by attacks)/ Divination Wizard 6 (to get the level 2 feature you wanted, but also stretch spell slots a little bit with the Wizard 6 feature, and to pick up 3rd level spells like Haste). It's a good build, to be honest:
Rituals through third level is most of the good ones
Proficiency in all saves
Immunity to Disease Poison late, or advantage/resistance against poison early from racial
AC 18 is perfectly decent, especially combined with Shield, Patient Defense, Portent, Lucky, and Second Chance
Absorb Elements, Evasion, and Deflect Arrows mitigate lower HP total
No need to take any spells that require a save against your DC, there's plenty of fun self-buff for a Monk like Misty Step, Blur, and Haste
If you're into the character concept, you can do it, don't let the haters tell you that you have to play a boring 8/15/15/8/15/8 stat spread to be a "good" monk.... especially if you're considering a solo campaign, where the DM by necessity is going to be tailoring the adventure to be fun and balanced for you, not for a theoretical group of optimized characters playing true to their role.
Yeah, you're arguing against a strawman that you built yourself, mate. A six level multiclass is completely different from a two-level dip. And no-one has said anything about how anyone should play a a"good" monk.
Also the question was if it was worth the dip for the portent alone. Which it really isn't. Can we please get back on topic now?
Word...
Honestly the advice to pick a Cleric level is much better as you can get prepare casting and healing with less investment.
Also fighter 2 would be better for action surge and dueling would up your damage on your monk weapon attacks.
The question asked was, "how 'bout dipping for Portent on a monk?," and others have jumped in to say "no, because you can't afford 13 intelligence." I've been posting to demonstrate that 13 intelligence is not very expensive to buy if one simply tempers one's Constitution target by a few points, to which others have replied that that's unspeakable, to which I've replied that it isn't and you can tank it even harder with few ill effects. That's all on-topic, but thanks for the opportunity to recap!
Portent is very good, but even better than being good, it is unique. There are no other abilities in the game that let you say "decide whether yourself or another creatures succeeds or fails on any check, save, or attack," but with a low and a high roll at the start of the day, that's what Portent is. That's bigger than a few hit points. It's even bigger than a few points one way or the other on your attacks or saves. It's enough to construct an entire build around, it's enough to justify almost any sacrifice! Stunning Fist is good... but a Stunning Fist that can't be saved against is better, and fundamentally changes the way that one or two combats per day work for that character.
An [Anything]/Divination Wizard 2 is a powerful and unpredictable character that is going to get to "gotcha" the DM again and again and again. Tired takes like "but that will potentially cost you 1 HP/level!" or "but that slows down your progression by two levels" need not apply, because people can and do multiclass for far less game changing reasons than Portent provides.
And on a solo character, Portent is even more important. There's fewer opportunities to say "I'll step back and let the other guys handle this," the spotlight is on you, every time. In a group, Portent might let you succeed at something that one of your party members would have otherwise tried and succeeded at. Or it might help you disable an enemy that otherwise the rest of your party would have had to deal with. But solo, the ability to know you'll do well on something, or to know you can force an enemy (any enemy) to perform badly at something? Its a big safety net, and makes you more versatile, and less exposed to 'one bad roll' being the end of your path with no back up to save you.
Portent is more valuable than a feat. It's more valuable than a Constitution modifier being 1 or 2 higher. It's more valuable than a couple levels of whatever other class you're focusing on. It's probably one of the single strongest/weirdest abilities in the entire game. And the fact that you just so happen by the way to be picking up rituals, Shield, Absorb Elements?? Come on my dudes, the tendency of others in this thread to poopoo it merely because it deviates from what "most players" would pick is frankly shortsighted and indefensible on paper or in practice.
I've played 16th level assasin rogue and 14th level shadow monk, the first with 10 in Con and the second with 12. Both were used in Deadly level encounters with no healers. Both walked away, never downed. Came close quite a few times, but never got there. Monk didn't even maxed stats: Wis was +3 and Dex was +4. Neither had Tough feat.
Challenging? Certainly! But more than doable.
Con is most definitely important, and you should definitely want to increase it, no matter what class you are. However, it's not exactly the end of the world to be a monk or spellcaster with low con. If you were a melee focused martial character like fighter, barb or pally then that low Con is going to be a big buzzkill. But skirmishers and spellcasters? It's not some super loss. Especially if dipping into Wizard for 8 spells, many of which can be defensive or rituals. Would it be optimal? No. But it's doable and might be fun, which is more important than being optimal, in my opinion.
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I've played 16th level assasin rogue and 14th level shadow monk, the first with 10 in Con and the second with 12. Both were used in Deadly level encounters with no healers. Both walked away, never downed. Came close quite a few times, but never got there. Monk didn't even maxed stats: Wis was +3 and Dex was +4. Neither had Tough feat.
Challenging? Certainly! But more than doable.
Con is most definitely important, and you should definitely want to increase it, no matter what class you are. However, it's not exactly the end of the world to be a monk or spellcaster with low con. If you were a melee focused martial character like fighter, barb or pally then that low Con is going to be a big buzzkill. But skirmishers and spellcasters? It's not some super loss. Especially if dipping into Wizard for 8 spells, many of which can be defensive or rituals. Would it be optimal? No. But it's doable and might be fun, which is more important than being optimal, in my opinion.
Yes I agree with fun but not optimzed.
That's a fine way to look at it.
However when you claim it's optimzed with low CON or in fact generally even recommended then you are objectively wrong.
I think it can be fun... But it's certainly not optimzed by any means or even common by any metric.
To each their own though.
Also you put 12 con in the monk which is the floor I advised.
I have a Paladin12/DivWiz4. The rest will be Wiz for the spell slots.
I have an Amulet of Health and a Headband of Intellect as two of my attuned items. Dex 20, Cha 20. Half elf.
Portent is working out great. I had a 20 for an auto-crit last session and love slipping bad people bad saves.
With Point buy on a half-elf you can start with 16/10/12/14/8/16; Dumping Wis looks bad, but you are proficient and you will get the Cha bonus on it. A non Paladin could dump Cha instead of Wis.
I have a Paladin12/DivWiz4. The rest will be Wiz for the spell slots.
I have an Amulet of Health and a Headband of Intellect as two of my attuned items. Dex 20, Cha 20. Half elf.
Portent is working out great. I had a 20 for an auto-crit last session and love slipping bad people bad saves.
With Point buy on a half-elf you can start with 16/10/12/14/8/16; Dumping Wis looks bad, but you are proficient and you will get the Cha bonus on it. A non Paladin could dump Cha instead of Wis.
Seems like a fun build as those items make things work.
Paladin would be an interesting choice with Monk too.
I would hesitate to go cleric instead. While it does use wis, it'd require a much greater investment before I could really use it to heal any significant amounts of damage. At just 2 levels, I'd still only get 3 level one spell slots, only able to heal d4s and d8s at a time, which wouldn't do much to get me out of a tight spot. If I was down to the single digits, I'd more likely want to go down swinging on the off chance I can kill the enemies before they kill me, or run and try to hide someplace I might be able to short rest. I would really have to go half cleric half monk to really make a cleric multiclass worthwhile.
That's also why I chose Open Hand. Three times my monk level of healing (starting at level 11) on an action per long rest is a pretty decent emergency button, and if I need much more than that I'll probably die anyways.
Not to mention, by going cleric instead of wizard, you lose out on a lot of the utility it brings with it via ritual casting and especially familiars. Not to mention it doesn't present anything that matches Portent for useful/unique class features.
My thinking is that if I can, I'll start Monk 10 (for the 30hp Wholeness of Body heal)/Wiz 1, and then my next level up I'll take Wiz 2. That is, again, if I roll well enough to make the 13int prerequisite. I might not.
A lot of those con saves are poison damage, wich as a lvl 10+ monk, you simply ignore. (Just saying)
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]90% of games end before 10th level:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/90-of-d-d-games-stop-by-level-10-wizards-more-popular-at-higher-levels.666097/#:~:text=browser%20before%20proceeding.-,90%25%20of%20D%26D%20Games%20Stop%20By%20Level%2010%3B%20Wizards,More%20Popular%20At%20Higher%20Levels&text=D%26D%20Beyond%20has%20released%20some,down%20to%20Rise%20of%20Tiamat.
Just sayin too....
Plus in this context you would have to be Level 12 as they were advocating a 2 level dip in Wizard.
My point being in general this is probably one of the worst pieces of advice you could give 90% of players.
Just goes to show you... folks by and large don't know how to properly optimize :)
You can't kill someone with your HP, and offense > defense 90% of the time :)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You are a great example of the former.....
Literally 0 guides advocate the use of low CON. Every major optimization guide advocates for CON of at least 12 on all builds:
https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/wizard/
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/mobilebasic
https://arcaneeye.com/class-guides/dnd-5e-wizard-guide/
Feel free to actually post any guide that suggest you dump CON....I doubt you will find any as its a terrible idea.
Obviously you can do as you please but its generally terrible advice for new players or players trying to build an optimal character.
Also literally nothing says you cant have a good CON and have your primary stat maxed so your offense>defense makes no sense.....
Like you can have a 14+ CON and max your main stat no problem....Not sure why they would be mutually exclusive.
If you have a need for all your ASIs then that's another reason why you wouldn't want to dump one of them for that second level of multiclassing.
And if this is for a solo campaign I suggest multiclassing into cleric. No need for Int and you get some much needed healing...
This is much better advice really. You become much more sustainable.
Hey, Monks only need to go to Monk 14 to do 99% of what they're about, and most Monk subclasses don't actually need Wisdom for anything other than AC and Stunning Strike. With other feats and features which provide defense in other manners, and a Monk's patient defense as an option.... really, you can get away with less than 20 Wisdom no problem.
I whipped up a Stout Halfling (to mitigate common Con saves in early levels before Monk 10, and provide +Dex, and have access to good defensive feat/features around luck) Drunken Monk 14 (to synergize with being missed by attacks)/ Divination Wizard 6 (to get the level 2 feature you wanted, but also stretch spell slots a little bit with the Wizard 6 feature, and to pick up 3rd level spells like Haste). It's a good build, to be honest:
If you're into the character concept, you can do it, don't let the haters tell you that you have to play a boring 8/15/15/8/15/8 stat spread to be a "good" monk.... especially if you're considering a solo campaign, where the DM by necessity is going to be tailoring the adventure to be fun and balanced for you, not for a theoretical group of optimized characters playing true to their role.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Just don't dump CON and lower Wisdom isn't as huge a deal.
Also be careful of white room high level builds...
As previously stated most campaigns end well before 14 th level.
Its a snapshot of a class that was whipped together for the sake of argument about wizard multiclasses with low intelligence, not a serious level-by-level breakdown of options for a specific build, I don't think it was necessary to do much more than provide what I did. But now that you point it out, were I to really try to squeeze the most versatility out of this for a solo experience that I could... I would indeed drop Con all the way down to 8 to squeeze more Strength and Charisma out of the build for well rounded survivability, thanks for the reminder.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Terrible idea as evidenced by the guides provided. But you can do you....
Also l will leave this link here...
https://imgur.com/a/C2SHjgA
Let me know how many people dump CON on any build.
Yeah, you're arguing against a strawman that you built yourself, mate. A six level multiclass is completely different from a two-level dip. And no-one has said anything about how anyone should play a a"good" monk.
Also the question was if it was worth the dip for the portent alone. Which it really isn't. Can we please get back on topic now?
Word...
Honestly the advice to pick a Cleric level is much better as you can get prepare casting and healing with less investment.
Also fighter 2 would be better for action surge and dueling would up your damage on your monk weapon attacks.
The question asked was, "how 'bout dipping for Portent on a monk?," and others have jumped in to say "no, because you can't afford 13 intelligence." I've been posting to demonstrate that 13 intelligence is not very expensive to buy if one simply tempers one's Constitution target by a few points, to which others have replied that that's unspeakable, to which I've replied that it isn't and you can tank it even harder with few ill effects. That's all on-topic, but thanks for the opportunity to recap!
Portent is very good, but even better than being good, it is unique. There are no other abilities in the game that let you say "decide whether yourself or another creatures succeeds or fails on any check, save, or attack," but with a low and a high roll at the start of the day, that's what Portent is. That's bigger than a few hit points. It's even bigger than a few points one way or the other on your attacks or saves. It's enough to construct an entire build around, it's enough to justify almost any sacrifice! Stunning Fist is good... but a Stunning Fist that can't be saved against is better, and fundamentally changes the way that one or two combats per day work for that character.
An [Anything]/Divination Wizard 2 is a powerful and unpredictable character that is going to get to "gotcha" the DM again and again and again. Tired takes like "but that will potentially cost you 1 HP/level!" or "but that slows down your progression by two levels" need not apply, because people can and do multiclass for far less game changing reasons than Portent provides.
And on a solo character, Portent is even more important. There's fewer opportunities to say "I'll step back and let the other guys handle this," the spotlight is on you, every time. In a group, Portent might let you succeed at something that one of your party members would have otherwise tried and succeeded at. Or it might help you disable an enemy that otherwise the rest of your party would have had to deal with. But solo, the ability to know you'll do well on something, or to know you can force an enemy (any enemy) to perform badly at something? Its a big safety net, and makes you more versatile, and less exposed to 'one bad roll' being the end of your path with no back up to save you.
Portent is more valuable than a feat. It's more valuable than a Constitution modifier being 1 or 2 higher. It's more valuable than a couple levels of whatever other class you're focusing on. It's probably one of the single strongest/weirdest abilities in the entire game. And the fact that you just so happen by the way to be picking up rituals, Shield, Absorb Elements?? Come on my dudes, the tendency of others in this thread to poopoo it merely because it deviates from what "most players" would pick is frankly shortsighted and indefensible on paper or in practice.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'm kinda with Chicken on this one.
I've played 16th level assasin rogue and 14th level shadow monk, the first with 10 in Con and the second with 12. Both were used in Deadly level encounters with no healers. Both walked away, never downed. Came close quite a few times, but never got there. Monk didn't even maxed stats: Wis was +3 and Dex was +4. Neither had Tough feat.
Challenging? Certainly! But more than doable.
Con is most definitely important, and you should definitely want to increase it, no matter what class you are. However, it's not exactly the end of the world to be a monk or spellcaster with low con. If you were a melee focused martial character like fighter, barb or pally then that low Con is going to be a big buzzkill. But skirmishers and spellcasters? It's not some super loss. Especially if dipping into Wizard for 8 spells, many of which can be defensive or rituals. Would it be optimal? No. But it's doable and might be fun, which is more important than being optimal, in my opinion.
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Yes I agree with fun but not optimzed.
That's a fine way to look at it.
However when you claim it's optimzed with low CON or in fact generally even recommended then you are objectively wrong.
I think it can be fun... But it's certainly not optimzed by any means or even common by any metric.
To each their own though.
Also you put 12 con in the monk which is the floor I advised.
I have a Paladin12/DivWiz4. The rest will be Wiz for the spell slots.
I have an Amulet of Health and a Headband of Intellect as two of my attuned items. Dex 20, Cha 20. Half elf.
Portent is working out great. I had a 20 for an auto-crit last session and love slipping bad people bad saves.
With Point buy on a half-elf you can start with 16/10/12/14/8/16; Dumping Wis looks bad, but you are proficient and you will get the Cha bonus on it. A non Paladin could dump Cha instead of Wis.
Seems like a fun build as those items make things work.
Paladin would be an interesting choice with Monk too.
I would hesitate to go cleric instead. While it does use wis, it'd require a much greater investment before I could really use it to heal any significant amounts of damage. At just 2 levels, I'd still only get 3 level one spell slots, only able to heal d4s and d8s at a time, which wouldn't do much to get me out of a tight spot. If I was down to the single digits, I'd more likely want to go down swinging on the off chance I can kill the enemies before they kill me, or run and try to hide someplace I might be able to short rest. I would really have to go half cleric half monk to really make a cleric multiclass worthwhile.
That's also why I chose Open Hand. Three times my monk level of healing (starting at level 11) on an action per long rest is a pretty decent emergency button, and if I need much more than that I'll probably die anyways.
Not to mention, by going cleric instead of wizard, you lose out on a lot of the utility it brings with it via ritual casting and especially familiars. Not to mention it doesn't present anything that matches Portent for useful/unique class features.
My thinking is that if I can, I'll start Monk 10 (for the 30hp Wholeness of Body heal)/Wiz 1, and then my next level up I'll take Wiz 2. That is, again, if I roll well enough to make the 13int prerequisite. I might not.