1st level: Fighter; for the starting gear, fighting style - Thrown weapon fighting and second wind to live longer
2nd level: Fighter; Action surge, more action. Guud.
3d level: Fighter; Archetype - Battle master. Mainly for Quick Toss
4th level: Fighter; Feat pick up, Sharpshooter. You can use the maneuver Precision Attack to offset or nullify the -5 to hit from sharpshooter
5th level: Fighter; Second attack
6th level: Fighter, grabbing that second fighting style faster through Fighting Initiate, as I don't think Ranger adds too much
7th level: Artificer, can offer a varity of things, not much damage
8th level: Artificer, +1 Returning Weapon (magical), and another Infusion (+1ac?)
Now, by level 8 you have +11 to hit and 1d4+7 damage with a dart. With Sharpshooter and Quick Toss that becomes +6 to hit and 1d4, 1d8, +17 damage (if your math is right, didn't checl). Sure Ranger gives Hunter's Mark and a d8 to an already damaged target once per turn. But this way you have more spell flexability, magical damage and a slightly higher DPR of... 62, which is nothing to sniff at for a lv8 ranged built with access to Action Surge and some utility magic items and spells.
1st level: Fighter; for the starting gear, fighting style - Thrown weapon fighting and second wind to live longer
2nd level: Fighter; Action surge, more action. Guud.
3d level: Fighter; Archetype - Battle master. Mainly for Quick Toss
4th level: Fighter; Feat pick up, Sharpshooter. You can use the maneuver Precision Attack to offset or nullify the -5 to hit from sharpshooter
5th level: Fighter; Second attack
6th level: Fighter, grabbing that second fighting style faster through Fighting Initiate, as I don't think Ranger adds too much
7th level: Artificer, can offer a varity of things, not much damage
8th level: Artificer, +1 Returning Weapon (magical), and another Infusion (+1ac?)
Now, by level 8 you have +11 to hit and 1d4+7 damage with a dart. With Sharpshooter and Quick Toss that becomes +6 to hit and 1d4, 1d8, +17 damage (if your math is right, didn't checl). Sure Ranger gives Hunter's Mark and a d8 to an already damaged target once per turn. But this way you have more spell flexability, magical damage and a slightly higher DPR of... 62, which is nothing to sniff at for a lv8 ranged built with access to Action Surge and some utility magic items and spells.
If you aren't going ranger then I'd forgo the second fighting style altogether, rather pump 2 points in dexterity for the +1 to hit and +1 to damage instead. Fighting Initiate is just a bad feat if you use multi-class rules in my opinion, and I'd only take it if multi classing wasn't allowed. Alternatively you could take the piercer feat for +1 dex and a reroll of an attack damage die, possibly turning a 1 into a 4. As a side bonus +1 damage die on a critical hit.
Setting feats aside, the ranger offers favored foe if you play with optional rules for a 1d4 once per turn. But Hunter's Mark itself is on every attack, not just once per turn. If you use it then you'd get a base of +10 to hit and 1d4+1d6+6 on each attack. If you take the hunter archetype you'd do 1d4+1d4+6+1d6+1d8 on 1 attack if you ad the bonuses, it'd be 10 to 28 damage with a single dart a round. If you use quick toss and sharpshooter with that it'd be 21 to 46 damage instead.
Also you don't have to be an artificer yourself, having one in your party is plenty to give you that infusion.
At the end of the day a dart throwing build is nice to play around with, but you can do just about the same thing with with a short or long bow. The only advantage the dart has is that you can stack guaranteed damage, trough extra bonuses like quick toss and thrown weapon fighting you'll do higher minimum damage.
However in minimum damage it looses to the Javelin which can do thrown weapon fighting and dueling for the 1d6+2+2 And in maximum damage it looses out on the (cross)bows which can do the sharpshooter thing but with higher numbered dice.
Its a viable build, just not the best at anything.
Yeah I get the fact Ranger is nice for a Martial Multiclass, but if we are relying on party composition here, then might as well add haste to your calculations as well. Rhetoric aside, I try to keep character build ideas as much in a vacuum as possible, because you have no idea what your party might want to play.
At the end of the day a dart throwing build is nice to play around with, but you can do just about the same thing with with a short or long bow. The only advantage the dart has is that you can stack guaranteed damage, trough extra bonuses like quick toss and thrown weapon fighting you'll do higher minimum damage.
However in minimum damage it looses to the Javelin which can do thrown weapon fighting and dueling for the 1d6+2+2 And in maximum damage it looses out on the (cross)bows which can do the sharpshooter thing but with higher numbered dice.
Its a viable build, just not the best at anything.
I'm not sure that ending parallel comparison tracks.
The Javelin cannot get the +10 from Sharpshooter and so is kinda only ever an option rather than the central crux of a Ranged build and the (Cross)bows cannot get the +2 damage from Thrown Weapon Fighting, so yeah I think there is an argument for a meta Dart Build, though the parellel power spikes will vary depending on stat rolls and crit builds. A potential +2 (Thrown Weapon), +1 (Returning Weapon), +10 (Sharpshooter) and +5 (Maxed Dexterity) for +18 and a boosted BA Attack is defo up there with more tried and true martial builds.
I still think we are only scratching in terms of classes and multi-class options. For example, Grung as a race choice adds a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or take 2d4 poison damage to every attack. Encouraging the maximising of attacks, so possibly grabbing Haste from Artificer or perhaps the extra attack from Gloomstalker.
Yeah I get the fact Ranger is nice for a Martial Multiclass, but if we are relying on party composition here, then might as well add haste to your calculations as well. Rhetoric aside, I try to keep character build ideas as much in a vacuum as possible, because you have no idea what your party might want to play.
Sure, a character is more then just it's damage output. I tend to get stuck in the damage output theory craft, which forgoes any out of combat perks you might want. Or any utility for that matter.
The Javelin cannot get the +10 from Sharpshooter and so is kinda only ever an option rather than the central crux of a Ranged build and the (Cross)bows cannot get the +2 damage from Thrown Weapon Fighting...
That's exactly the point. The Javelin is both melee and ranged for versatility. I was referring to the base damage being higher, without feats. The Heavy Crossbow just has a D10 in damage, as far as damage output goes it has the highest max damage potential.
The Dart is the lowest damage ranged weapon along with the sling, they need a lot of small damage die to increase there base damage where they win against (cross)bows in consistency. The (cross)bows have a much higher damage ceiling though. Compared to non ranged thrown weapons the dart needs the sharpshooter feat to keep up.
I still think we are only scratching in terms of classes and multi-class options..
I definitely agree. Stuff like a bugbear that adds damage on a surprise round and other racial abilities is something we haven't even discussed. But I feel that wouldn't change the power dynamic between a throwing dart and a bow. Any racial perk you apply to the dart could also apply to the bow, so nothing changes at the bottom line. What classes should be included is something that's worth exploring though.
Since Crossbow, Heavy is Heavy and basically requires a feat, I think the Longbow is a better comparison for damage maximums - in which case the +2 damage average is offset by the +2 damage from Thrown Weapon Fighting Style if you are going to multi-class into a Fighting Style Class. However, you also get the Quick Toss manoeuvre, making it stronger even if you lose the power of an Elven Accuracy crit build. I’m just saying, I think it has meta potential and we are only getting started.
Dagger (all numbers +4 from thrown weapon fighting an dueling)
min 5
max 8
avg 6.5
Javelin (all numbers +4 from thrown weapon fighting an dueling)
min 5
max 10
avg 7.5
Longbow
min 1
max 8
avg 4.5
Crossbow
min 1
max 10
avg 5.5
So the most consistent damage output would be a javelin if you just look at fighting styles. I'm having a hard time factoring in the sharpshooter feat, because how many times would a -5 penalty to hit result in a miss? If we take a d20 as the base and we subtract 5 we'd have 75% efficiency where you do 10 extra damage, so that would increase the average damage output to 7.5. However if you apply it you'd get something more along the lines of the following
Dart (all numbers +2 from thrown weapon fighting, +10 sharpshooter)
So on base damages alone the efficiency loss still results in higher damage output. UNLESS you have external damage sources like hunter's mark. Then the 25% attacks you miss suddenly make you loose a 1d6 of damage.
However archery increases hit chance by +2 so the penalty is more like -3. And your dex mod and proficiency increase your to hit mod as well. And it depends on what the armor class is. I'm sure someone could make a nice table to cross reference the exact miss chance you get including all the factors and telling you at what armor class to use sharpshooter. But I'm not going to invest that time.
Yeah I wouldn’t invest the time either as there are already plenty of really in-depth analysis of Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter’s affect on DPR (nearly always worth it).
But anyway, it seems like from that breakdown you can see why I’m arguing in favour of the humble Dart for Ranged builds. Particularly if Multi-classing into a class with a second Fighting Style.
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It's just that you have to invest in feats and/or multi-class to make it work. Whereas with a longbow you can just take 1 feat and then pump ASI for extra damage. The entire average comparison falls down if a longbow gets an extra +1/+2 from dex mod/proficiency bonus. 20 dex can be gotten at level 8 for a straight character, but a multiclass/feat based one would have to wait till level 10-11 for that.
Though you could do the same with Battlemaster and Darts, just Archery and Sharpshooter and maxing Dex at lv6 or lv8
The -2 average damage from a d4 rather than a d8, is easily offset by the extra attack from Quick Toss. The only downside from choosing Dart over Longbow then with this single class build is the range... but you could also have a Shield with that spare hand...
It's just that you have to invest in feats and/or multi-class to make it work. Whereas with a longbow you can just take 1 feat and then pump ASI for extra damage. The entire average comparison falls down if a longbow gets an extra +1/+2 from dex mod/proficiency bonus. 20 dex can be gotten at level 8 for a straight character, but a multiclass/feat based one would have to wait till level 10-11 for that.
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Dart builds are best served building as a Battlemaster. Quick Toss is what separates the dart from the longbow. Getting a bonus action attack that can carry Sharpshooter bonus damage is incredibly strong.
You don't need to dip to get this build off the ground. A variant human can start with both fighting styles at level 1 with Fighting Initiate. Getting access to a bonus action Sharpshooter attack pushes the dial a lot on the opportunity cost of the build. Also, this Battlemaster build can get to 20 dex by level 8 no problem.
Level 1: 16 Dex, Archery Style, Throwing Style
Level 4. +2 Dex
Level 6. Sharpshooter
Level 8. +2 Dex
Yes, a longbow build can get to 20 dex by level 6, but they're also lacking a consistent bonus action attack. Not saying the dart build is stronger (not interested in that conversation), just pointing out that the Battlemaster Dart Fighter has a perfectly clean progression to 20 Dex and a powerful payoff that gives one a mechanical reason to go for this build over your average archer build.
What the build does actually struggle with is the magic weapon problem. A longbowman only needs one magic weapon. So either you need a DM willing to throw you a bone and have you discover a Returning Dart, or dip two levels into Artificer for the Returning Infusion. Despite this, I think the Dart Battlemaster has enough going for it to not just be a worse archer fighter that you pick because the concept tickles you.
Dart builds are best served building as a Battlemaster. Quick Toss is what separates the dart from the longbow. Getting a bonus action attack that can carry Sharpshooter bonus damage is incredibly strong.
You don't need to dip to get this build off the ground. A variant human can start with both fighting styles at level 1 with Fighting Initiate. Getting access to a bonus action Sharpshooter attack pushes the dial a lot on the opportunity cost of the build. Also, this Battlemaster build can get to 20 dex by level 8 no problem.
Level 1: 16 Dex, Archery Style, Throwing Style
Level 4. +2 Dex
Level 6. Sharpshooter
Level 8. +2 Dex
Yes, a longbow build can get to 20 dex by level 6, but they're also lacking a consistent bonus action attack. Not saying the dart build is stronger (not interested in that conversation), just pointing out that the Battlemaster Dart Fighter has a perfectly clean progression to 20 Dex and a powerful payoff that gives one a mechanical reason to go for this build over your average archer build.
I'm definitely nitpicking here, but seeing as how core sharpshooter is to the build getting it asap is pretty vital. It's a lot more important then archery +2 to hit.
It's arguable whether archery is really needed. At level 1, 16 dex you get a to-hit bonus of +5, so sharpshooter shots just negate this for a flat roll. When you use an ASI to increase your DEX you basically get +1 to hit AND +1 to damage, so I'd prioritize this over an archery +2 to-hit.
When looking at archery it gives you a +2 to hit. But is there other stuff you could be doing?
Piercer; +1 dex/str, re-roll a damage die once a turn, possibly turning a 1 into a 4. +1 damage die on a critical hit.
What the build does actually struggle with is the magic weapon problem. A longbowman only needs one magic weapon. So either you need a DM willing to throw you a bone and have you discover a Returning Dart, or dip two levels into Artificer for the Returning Infusion. Despite this, I think the Dart Battlemaster has enough going for it to not just be a worse archer fighter that you pick because the concept tickles you.
To get over the magic weapon problem you could go for a level 1 background of Guild Artisan to get Proficiency with Smith's tools and get a set of Smith's tools trough standard equipment. This would allow you to craft regular darts, but when looking at Xanathar's downtime activities you could craft +1 dart(s) in a matter of 2 workweeks. In this regard you should work with your DM to determine:
Are Darts 100% reusable (do you recover all of them after a fight, but require the full 2 weeks)
Are Darts counted as ammunition (do you recover half of them after a fight, but crafted in bulk like arrows)
Are Darts counted as consumable (do you recover none of them after a fight, but crafted in bulk at half the required time)
Are Darts fully metal so you only need Smith's tools
Are Darts part wood so you require Woodcarver's tools and craft them in a short and long rest
Would Tinker's tools proficiency aid in crafting proficiency, possibly shortening work time or increasing bulk amount when making Darts
I'd work with the DM to set a base line for this and take the appropriate tools from the background and proficiency from battle master.
Another way to get around the problem of magical darts is to not go battle master at all but to go for Eldritch Knight. With the Weapon Bond feature you could have a +x dart and bond with it so you can use your bonus action to return it to your hand. You'd have to augment your extra attacks with non magical darts, until you reach level 7 for the War Magic feature which allows you to:
Cast 1 cantrip
Make 1 attack with the +x dart
Take 1 bonus action to return the +x dart to your hand
This would put the focus of the build more towards a half caster that happens to use darts, rather then a dart chucker as you wouldn't be throwing 4 darts a round at level 11.
I can't find any rules that say magical weapons return to your hands automatically.
And logically speaking if all magic weapons returned to the hands automatically then items like the Dwarven Thrower would have redundant text explicitly stating that it returns on hit.
Martial Adept; +1 superiority die (more quick toss per short rest)
Is the +2 to hit really worth the feat?
Yes, I would say it definitely is. +2 to hit equals a 10% increase to accuracy. The context of sharpshooter and trying to offset that penalty means so much, especially on a build without easy access to advantage. Every bonus to hit matters. Snatch up what you can. Considering Valor Bards and Kensei Monks were regularly dipping entire levels into other classes to get Archery Fighting Style before Tasha's, I think this is a no brainer feat choice.
The competition you've listed is mostly fine, but not a top priority by any means. I'm not interested in poisoner taking up the bonus action. Martial Adept is certainly useful for extra Sup Dice, but I don't think it's close to beating maximizing your resource free hit chance in terms of priority. Piercer can simply replace an ASI on a custom lineage build that starts with 17 dex, so that doesn't actually compete for space on builds that want it. On Variant humans the +1 is awkward to use so I wouldn't bother. Piercer wants big damage die to deal with, so working off the dart makes it pretty lackluster. It's a value comes when you use it to round out your dex score because then it's super low opportunity cost.
I'm definitely nitpicking here, but seeing as how core sharpshooter is to the build getting it asap is pretty vital. It's a lot more important then archery +2 to hit.
When I posted that little breakdown I wasn't really trying to hammer out the best layout. I was looking to show that it was easy to maximize dexterity while picking up both feats by level 8. That being said, I love picking nits myself, so I'll indulge you😜
Sharpshooter is absolutely a top priority. But is it better than starting with a flat +2 to hit? I have a couple thoughts
Playing at level 1, if you roll around with sharpshooter trying to hit things with +0 bonus, you are going to miss A LOT. Yes, the DPR is better, but that misses some key details. First, let's look at how the DPR compares against some common AC numbers you'll be facing:
At the base, Sharpshooter is just shy of +3 DPR. That difference fades as you fight harder to hit foes, dropping all the way down to +.375 damage against AC 15. Nearly + 50 % damage is definitely good, I won't deny that, but that's only at the very low end of AC's. The bonus diminishes drastically by the time you get to a leather bound, shield wielding Goblin like the one you find in the Monster Manual. There's even more to it though.
Smacking things for 17.5 damage is going to leave a lot of damage on the table. You don't get bonus points for overkill (other than high fives and the satisfaction of stomping on some poor goblins). When you kill a 7 HP Goblin using 17.5 damage your DPR is effectively much lower as that 10 damage is wasted. The archery style build could kill the same Goblin 75% of the time they hit and leave very little potential damage wasted.
This makes you much worse at picking things off that have already taken damage (common when playing with anyone that does AoE damage, or you know, just doesn't manage to kill their target). Sure, you can drop the +10/-5 if you want to finish something off that is hanging on by a few points, but then you're just worse at hitting the thing than the archery style build. Being less reliable at dealing damage on demand, the exact turn you need it is a downside. Even if your total DPR is greater.
Ignoring half and three-quarters cover actually means more to me than the DPR when it comes to picking it up at level 1, and something I would like very much. Since the DPR difference doesn't impress me, is this enough for me to delay FI: Archery? I think this one is a matter of optics. Consider the following theory species:
Marvin Martian
+1/+1
Skill
Common, Language
+2 to hit with ranged weapon attacks (does not stack with Archery Style)
Would you consider this race good enough to pick and delay sharpshooter to level 4 when building a ranged guy? I definitely would. It's not like every archer plays a variant human. There are other races people play and succeed with when playing one.
Ignoring cover is excellent, but I think waiting until level 4 will be perfectly workable if not always ideal. The build can always have a shield and rapier to switch-hit, which is something I think all low level martials need to be able to do anyways.
What's interesting is that being able to throw at long range with no penalty is actually quite relevant for the dart as opposed to being some mostly useless ribbon text like it usually is. When I put sharpshooter at 6 in that other post, I was not considering this and thinking more along the lines of how I like to approach longbowmen and the like. This is the big one to me. I'm the most on the fence about putting this benefit off until level 4 than anything else. I think that because the thrower can actually wear a shield, and thus have good AC, makes me okay with it, but I'm waffling. (pretty hard actually)
Sharpshooter has better DPR in a vacuum, but I'm more impressed by the stability of the damage coming from FI: Archery and how that pertains to actual play patterns involving monsters with differing ACs and HP pools and teammates that contribute damage in different ways. I value ignoring 1/2 and 3/4 cover, but considering the existence of other ways around the problem, and the fact that FI: Archery helps mitigate the cover bonuses itself, that doesn't sway me. Throwing at 60 feet will be tough to put off and in the end, mostly because of that, this ends up really close for me.
Hmm. I'm going to think about this one.
Whatever I end up concluding about the order of things, I would absolutely take both of the feats when building a DartMaster. They go together like peanut butter and chocolate (**** a jelly)
I can't find any rules that say magical weapons return to your hands automatically.
And logically speaking if all magic weapons returned to the hands automatically then items like the Dwarven Thrower would have redundant text explicitly stating that it returns on hit.
Hmm, must have been thinking of 4E rules for some reason. Not enough sleep this week.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I thought about the Kensei, but the lack of fighting style and extra ASI makes it much harder to achieve everything the build wants in a timely manner. A dip could help, but personally, I am not a fan of dips on Kensei (I think more than any other monk). Also, Ki-Fueled Attack and Kensei's Shot both work with longbows, which really edges into the "why not just use a bow territory" made even worse by the fact that longbow builds don't require a dip. Battlemaster does a good job of avoiding all of this.
Still, an interesting option to explore indeed. I like that the dart benefits from the martial arts die quite a bit, and having such a solid switch-hitter routine baked in is something I'm always going to be a fan of.
and now i want to make a poisoning Alchemist dart thrower... though I also realize a lot of this can be applied to daggers (not all though) so that can make some fun times.
I am making a former Private Detective. The build I am thinking goes like this:
1st level: Fighter: Fighting Style - Close Quarters Shooting to get a +1 Accuracy and negates disadvantage if enemies get close, Variant Human to pick up Sharpshooter which eliminates range disadvantage and extends the cover-negation bonus to full range in addition to optional damage bonus.
2nd level: Fighter: Action surge
3d level: Fighter: Archetype - Battle master (Quick Toss, Precision Attack and Tactical Assessment)
4th level: Fighter: Feat: Fighting Initiate to pick up Thrown Weapon Fighting
5th level: Fighter: Second attack
6th level: Rogue: Sneak Attack. Expertise to double the Insight and Investigation from Investigator Background which is also boosted by Tactical Assessment.
7h level: Rogue: Cunning Action
8th level: Rogue: Archetype - Inquisitive. Ear for Deceit and Eye for Detail are okay considering his skill. However, with Insightful Fighting, I can start the fight by spending a bonus action to pick out a target and, for the next minute, can use Sneak Attack against them as if I had advantage as long as something isn't giving me disadvantage (which I have already negated most of the common types that ranged attackers normally get). Will also take the Steady Aim Optional Class Feature for when I run out of Superiority Dice to further aid my Sharpshooter.
Does the math work? Anything else that can be added?
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Okay, I think the Fighter 1-5 I agree with, however I don't think Ranger is best for what comes next.
Now, by level 8 you have +11 to hit and 1d4+7 damage with a dart. With Sharpshooter and Quick Toss that becomes +6 to hit and 1d4, 1d8, +17 damage (if your math is right, didn't checl). Sure Ranger gives Hunter's Mark and a d8 to an already damaged target once per turn. But this way you have more spell flexability, magical damage and a slightly higher DPR of... 62, which is nothing to sniff at for a lv8 ranged built with access to Action Surge and some utility magic items and spells.
If you aren't going ranger then I'd forgo the second fighting style altogether, rather pump 2 points in dexterity for the +1 to hit and +1 to damage instead. Fighting Initiate is just a bad feat if you use multi-class rules in my opinion, and I'd only take it if multi classing wasn't allowed. Alternatively you could take the piercer feat for +1 dex and a reroll of an attack damage die, possibly turning a 1 into a 4. As a side bonus +1 damage die on a critical hit.
Setting feats aside, the ranger offers favored foe if you play with optional rules for a 1d4 once per turn. But Hunter's Mark itself is on every attack, not just once per turn. If you use it then you'd get a base of +10 to hit and 1d4+1d6+6 on each attack. If you take the hunter archetype you'd do 1d4+1d4+6+1d6+1d8 on 1 attack if you ad the bonuses, it'd be 10 to 28 damage with a single dart a round. If you use quick toss and sharpshooter with that it'd be 21 to 46 damage instead.
Also you don't have to be an artificer yourself, having one in your party is plenty to give you that infusion.
At the end of the day a dart throwing build is nice to play around with, but you can do just about the same thing with with a short or long bow. The only advantage the dart has is that you can stack guaranteed damage, trough extra bonuses like quick toss and thrown weapon fighting you'll do higher minimum damage.
However in minimum damage it looses to the Javelin which can do thrown weapon fighting and dueling for the 1d6+2+2
And in maximum damage it looses out on the (cross)bows which can do the sharpshooter thing but with higher numbered dice.
Its a viable build, just not the best at anything.
Yeah I get the fact Ranger is nice for a Martial Multiclass, but if we are relying on party composition here, then might as well add haste to your calculations as well. Rhetoric aside, I try to keep character build ideas as much in a vacuum as possible, because you have no idea what your party might want to play.
I'm not sure that ending parallel comparison tracks.
The Javelin cannot get the +10 from Sharpshooter and so is kinda only ever an option rather than the central crux of a Ranged build and the (Cross)bows cannot get the +2 damage from Thrown Weapon Fighting, so yeah I think there is an argument for a meta Dart Build, though the parellel power spikes will vary depending on stat rolls and crit builds. A potential +2 (Thrown Weapon), +1 (Returning Weapon), +10 (Sharpshooter) and +5 (Maxed Dexterity) for +18 and a boosted BA Attack is defo up there with more tried and true martial builds.
I still think we are only scratching in terms of classes and multi-class options. For example, Grung as a race choice adds a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or take 2d4 poison damage to every attack. Encouraging the maximising of attacks, so possibly grabbing Haste from Artificer or perhaps the extra attack from Gloomstalker.
https://ddb.ac/characters/40832843/Kw44eU
This lv12 Character build on the first turn has seven attacks for a total of (+7 to hit) 7d4 +3d8 +126 AND 7 DC12 Grung Poison Saves
Sure, a character is more then just it's damage output. I tend to get stuck in the damage output theory craft, which forgoes any out of combat perks you might want. Or any utility for that matter.
That's exactly the point.
The Javelin is both melee and ranged for versatility. I was referring to the base damage being higher, without feats.
The Heavy Crossbow just has a D10 in damage, as far as damage output goes it has the highest max damage potential.
The Dart is the lowest damage ranged weapon along with the sling, they need a lot of small damage die to increase there base damage where they win against (cross)bows in consistency. The (cross)bows have a much higher damage ceiling though. Compared to non ranged thrown weapons the dart needs the sharpshooter feat to keep up.
I definitely agree. Stuff like a bugbear that adds damage on a surprise round and other racial abilities is something we haven't even discussed. But I feel that wouldn't change the power dynamic between a throwing dart and a bow. Any racial perk you apply to the dart could also apply to the bow, so nothing changes at the bottom line. What classes should be included is something that's worth exploring though.
Since Crossbow, Heavy is Heavy and basically requires a feat, I think the Longbow is a better comparison for damage maximums - in which case the +2 damage average is offset by the +2 damage from Thrown Weapon Fighting Style if you are going to multi-class into a Fighting Style Class. However, you also get the Quick Toss manoeuvre, making it stronger even if you lose the power of an Elven Accuracy crit build. I’m just saying, I think it has meta potential and we are only getting started.
So lets go by statistics:
So the most consistent damage output would be a javelin if you just look at fighting styles. I'm having a hard time factoring in the sharpshooter feat, because how many times would a -5 penalty to hit result in a miss? If we take a d20 as the base and we subtract 5 we'd have 75% efficiency where you do 10 extra damage, so that would increase the average damage output to 7.5. However if you apply it you'd get something more along the lines of the following
So on base damages alone the efficiency loss still results in higher damage output. UNLESS you have external damage sources like hunter's mark. Then the 25% attacks you miss suddenly make you loose a 1d6 of damage.
However archery increases hit chance by +2 so the penalty is more like -3. And your dex mod and proficiency increase your to hit mod as well. And it depends on what the armor class is. I'm sure someone could make a nice table to cross reference the exact miss chance you get including all the factors and telling you at what armor class to use sharpshooter. But I'm not going to invest that time.
Yeah I wouldn’t invest the time either as there are already plenty of really in-depth analysis of Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter’s affect on DPR (nearly always worth it).
But anyway, it seems like from that breakdown you can see why I’m arguing in favour of the humble Dart for Ranged builds. Particularly if Multi-classing into a class with a second Fighting Style.
It's just that you have to invest in feats and/or multi-class to make it work. Whereas with a longbow you can just take 1 feat and then pump ASI for extra damage. The entire average comparison falls down if a longbow gets an extra +1/+2 from dex mod/proficiency bonus. 20 dex can be gotten at level 8 for a straight character, but a multiclass/feat based one would have to wait till level 10-11 for that.
Though you could do the same with Battlemaster and Darts, just Archery and Sharpshooter and maxing Dex at lv6 or lv8
The -2 average damage from a d4 rather than a d8, is easily offset by the extra attack from Quick Toss. The only downside from choosing Dart over Longbow then with this single class build is the range... but you could also have a Shield with that spare hand...
Dart builds are best served building as a Battlemaster. Quick Toss is what separates the dart from the longbow. Getting a bonus action attack that can carry Sharpshooter bonus damage is incredibly strong.
You don't need to dip to get this build off the ground. A variant human can start with both fighting styles at level 1 with Fighting Initiate. Getting access to a bonus action Sharpshooter attack pushes the dial a lot on the opportunity cost of the build. Also, this Battlemaster build can get to 20 dex by level 8 no problem.
Level 1: 16 Dex, Archery Style, Throwing Style
Level 4. +2 Dex
Level 6. Sharpshooter
Level 8. +2 Dex
Yes, a longbow build can get to 20 dex by level 6, but they're also lacking a consistent bonus action attack. Not saying the dart build is stronger (not interested in that conversation), just pointing out that the Battlemaster Dart Fighter has a perfectly clean progression to 20 Dex and a powerful payoff that gives one a mechanical reason to go for this build over your average archer build.
What the build does actually struggle with is the magic weapon problem. A longbowman only needs one magic weapon. So either you need a DM willing to throw you a bone and have you discover a Returning Dart, or dip two levels into Artificer for the Returning Infusion. Despite this, I think the Dart Battlemaster has enough going for it to not just be a worse archer fighter that you pick because the concept tickles you.
I'm definitely nitpicking here, but seeing as how core sharpshooter is to the build getting it asap is pretty vital. It's a lot more important then archery +2 to hit.
It's arguable whether archery is really needed. At level 1, 16 dex you get a to-hit bonus of +5, so sharpshooter shots just negate this for a flat roll. When you use an ASI to increase your DEX you basically get +1 to hit AND +1 to damage, so I'd prioritize this over an archery +2 to-hit.
When looking at archery it gives you a +2 to hit. But is there other stuff you could be doing?
Is the +2 to hit really worth the feat?
To get over the magic weapon problem you could go for a level 1 background of Guild Artisan to get Proficiency with Smith's tools and get a set of Smith's tools trough standard equipment. This would allow you to craft regular darts, but when looking at Xanathar's downtime activities you could craft +1 dart(s) in a matter of 2 workweeks. In this regard you should work with your DM to determine:
I'd work with the DM to set a base line for this and take the appropriate tools from the background and proficiency from battle master.
Another way to get around the problem of magical darts is to not go battle master at all but to go for Eldritch Knight. With the Weapon Bond feature you could have a +x dart and bond with it so you can use your bonus action to return it to your hand. You'd have to augment your extra attacks with non magical darts, until you reach level 7 for the War Magic feature which allows you to:
This would put the focus of the build more towards a half caster that happens to use darts, rather then a dart chucker as you wouldn't be throwing 4 darts a round at level 11.
Don't magical throwing weapons automatically return the the wielder's hand after making an attack?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I can't find any rules that say magical weapons return to your hands automatically.
And logically speaking if all magic weapons returned to the hands automatically then items like the Dwarven Thrower would have redundant text explicitly stating that it returns on hit.
+2 to hit is usually much more powerful than a +2 to damage.
Yes, I would say it definitely is. +2 to hit equals a 10% increase to accuracy. The context of sharpshooter and trying to offset that penalty means so much, especially on a build without easy access to advantage. Every bonus to hit matters. Snatch up what you can. Considering Valor Bards and Kensei Monks were regularly dipping entire levels into other classes to get Archery Fighting Style before Tasha's, I think this is a no brainer feat choice.
The competition you've listed is mostly fine, but not a top priority by any means. I'm not interested in poisoner taking up the bonus action. Martial Adept is certainly useful for extra Sup Dice, but I don't think it's close to beating maximizing your resource free hit chance in terms of priority. Piercer can simply replace an ASI on a custom lineage build that starts with 17 dex, so that doesn't actually compete for space on builds that want it. On Variant humans the +1 is awkward to use so I wouldn't bother. Piercer wants big damage die to deal with, so working off the dart makes it pretty lackluster. It's a value comes when you use it to round out your dex score because then it's super low opportunity cost.
When I posted that little breakdown I wasn't really trying to hammer out the best layout. I was looking to show that it was easy to maximize dexterity while picking up both feats by level 8. That being said, I love picking nits myself, so I'll indulge you😜
Sharpshooter is absolutely a top priority. But is it better than starting with a flat +2 to hit? I have a couple thoughts
Playing at level 1, if you roll around with sharpshooter trying to hit things with +0 bonus, you are going to miss A LOT. Yes, the DPR is better, but that misses some key details. First, let's look at how the DPR compares against some common AC numbers you'll be facing:
I used this awesome damage calculator if you're interested: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)
At the base, Sharpshooter is just shy of +3 DPR. That difference fades as you fight harder to hit foes, dropping all the way down to +.375 damage against AC 15. Nearly + 50 % damage is definitely good, I won't deny that, but that's only at the very low end of AC's. The bonus diminishes drastically by the time you get to a leather bound, shield wielding Goblin like the one you find in the Monster Manual. There's even more to it though.
Smacking things for 17.5 damage is going to leave a lot of damage on the table. You don't get bonus points for overkill (other than high fives and the satisfaction of stomping on some poor goblins). When you kill a 7 HP Goblin using 17.5 damage your DPR is effectively much lower as that 10 damage is wasted. The archery style build could kill the same Goblin 75% of the time they hit and leave very little potential damage wasted.
This makes you much worse at picking things off that have already taken damage (common when playing with anyone that does AoE damage, or you know, just doesn't manage to kill their target). Sure, you can drop the +10/-5 if you want to finish something off that is hanging on by a few points, but then you're just worse at hitting the thing than the archery style build. Being less reliable at dealing damage on demand, the exact turn you need it is a downside. Even if your total DPR is greater.
Ignoring half and three-quarters cover actually means more to me than the DPR when it comes to picking it up at level 1, and something I would like very much. Since the DPR difference doesn't impress me, is this enough for me to delay FI: Archery? I think this one is a matter of optics. Consider the following theory species:
Would you consider this race good enough to pick and delay sharpshooter to level 4 when building a ranged guy? I definitely would. It's not like every archer plays a variant human. There are other races people play and succeed with when playing one.
Ignoring cover is excellent, but I think waiting until level 4 will be perfectly workable if not always ideal. The build can always have a shield and rapier to switch-hit, which is something I think all low level martials need to be able to do anyways.
What's interesting is that being able to throw at long range with no penalty is actually quite relevant for the dart as opposed to being some mostly useless ribbon text like it usually is. When I put sharpshooter at 6 in that other post, I was not considering this and thinking more along the lines of how I like to approach longbowmen and the like. This is the big one to me. I'm the most on the fence about putting this benefit off until level 4 than anything else. I think that because the thrower can actually wear a shield, and thus have good AC, makes me okay with it, but I'm waffling. (pretty hard actually)
Sharpshooter has better DPR in a vacuum, but I'm more impressed by the stability of the damage coming from FI: Archery and how that pertains to actual play patterns involving monsters with differing ACs and HP pools and teammates that contribute damage in different ways. I value ignoring 1/2 and 3/4 cover, but considering the existence of other ways around the problem, and the fact that FI: Archery helps mitigate the cover bonuses itself, that doesn't sway me. Throwing at 60 feet will be tough to put off and in the end, mostly because of that, this ends up really close for me.
Hmm. I'm going to think about this one.
Whatever I end up concluding about the order of things, I would absolutely take both of the feats when building a DartMaster. They go together like peanut butter and chocolate (**** a jelly)
Hmm, must have been thinking of 4E rules for some reason. Not enough sleep this week.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
A possible route to getting magical weapons is to also go Kensei Monk, which is viable for multiple other reasons:
It won't do as much damage though, by a longshot... anywhere here is a character concept:
I thought about the Kensei, but the lack of fighting style and extra ASI makes it much harder to achieve everything the build wants in a timely manner. A dip could help, but personally, I am not a fan of dips on Kensei (I think more than any other monk). Also, Ki-Fueled Attack and Kensei's Shot both work with longbows, which really edges into the "why not just use a bow territory" made even worse by the fact that longbow builds don't require a dip. Battlemaster does a good job of avoiding all of this.
Still, an interesting option to explore indeed. I like that the dart benefits from the martial arts die quite a bit, and having such a solid switch-hitter routine baked in is something I'm always going to be a fan of.
I love your grung!
and now i want to make a poisoning Alchemist dart thrower... though I also realize a lot of this can be applied to daggers (not all though) so that can make some fun times.
I am making a former Private Detective. The build I am thinking goes like this:
Does the math work? Anything else that can be added?