To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn, so the insinuation that “you don’t choose” means “it won’t happen” is very misleading. A champion is “good” more turns per day than the BM is, even if arguably the BM is “better” on those individual turns they pop their business.
To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn, so the insinuation that “you don’t choose” means “it won’t happen” is very misleading. A champion is “good” more turns per day than the BM is, even if arguably the BM is “better” on those individual turns they pop their business.
A "properly built" champion crits "at least once per turn?" Now this I've got to hear!
Even with extra attack, advantage and polearm master, you are looking at only a 47% chance that one of your three attacks will crit. 47% is a lot, but certainly not what you are saying and champion has no built in way to generate advantage on the attack rolls. And since that's a "chance" you can go multiple rounds without critting. It's all in the dice. That's the lack of control, I was talking about earlier. The battle master can use his/her maneuvers when they really need something, to help control the fight. Champion just prays for a crit...all the time. They have nothing to do outside of that.
To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn.
So you're claiming it's impossible to have a properly built champion? No build crits every turn. Some builds crit an average of once per turn (but will still fail to crit some turns, generally around 70% to get at least 1 crit), but that requires one of
crit 19-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 82% of the time, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 43% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 3 attacks per turn.
All of those builds heavily restrict your options, minimum level is 11 for the first at 15 for the rest, and only option 3 is realistic because the DM will have encounters where there are effects applying disadvantage or your source of advantage doesn't work. I have previously admitted that it's possible for champion to do well by late tier 3/tier 4, I just consider it irrelevant to most campaigns.
To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn.
So you're claiming it's impossible to have a properly built champion? No build crits every turn. Some builds crit an average of once per turn (but will still fail to crit some turns, generally around 70% to get at least 1 crit), but that requires one of
crit 19-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 82% of the time, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 43% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 3 attacks per turn.
All of those builds heavily restrict your options, minimum level is 11 for the first at 15 for the rest, and only option 3 is realistic because the DM will have encounters where there are effects applying disadvantage or your source of advantage doesn't work. I have previously admitted that it's possible for champion to do well by late tier 3/tier 4, I just consider it irrelevant to most campaigns.
As you should...
90% end by 10th level.
So yes you have a good shot to CRIT but it's FAR from a CRIT every turn
How is critting 88% of turns not sufficient to claim "crit at least once per turn"? Lol, you people's standards are impossible, apparently the Champion needs not only meet normal expectations of competency, but be some sort of superhuman that breaks the game for you all to give them a pass :p
Like I said. A Champion can easily be built to crit once per turn about as consistently as another character might be built to land a hit at least once per turn. That's what those numbers above show.
How is critting 88% of turns not sufficient to claim "crit at least once per turn"?
(a) I never said 88% of turns critting, I said 88% of attacks having advantage. (b) crits at least once per turn means 100%. If you don't mean 100%, don't say 100%.
To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn.
So you're claiming it's impossible to have a properly built champion? No build crits every turn. Some builds crit an average of once per turn (but will still fail to crit some turns, generally around 70% to get at least 1 crit), but that requires one of
crit 19-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 82% of the time, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 43% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 3 attacks per turn.
All of those builds heavily restrict your options, minimum level is 11 for the first at 15 for the rest, and only option 3 is realistic because the DM will have encounters where there are effects applying disadvantage or your source of advantage doesn't work. I have previously admitted that it's possible for champion to do well by late tier 3/tier 4, I just consider it irrelevant to most campaigns.
How is this fighter generating advantage on every turn, again? Advantage will happen from time to time, but not regularly for a champion fighter. Champion subclass has no mechanism to generate advantage, by itself.
To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn.
So you're claiming it's impossible to have a properly built champion? No build crits every turn. Some builds crit an average of once per turn (but will still fail to crit some turns, generally around 70% to get at least 1 crit), but that requires one of
crit 19-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 82% of the time, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 43% of the time, elven accuracy, 4 attacks per turn.
crit 18-20, advantage 88% of the time, elven accuracy, 3 attacks per turn.
All of those builds heavily restrict your options, minimum level is 11 for the first at 15 for the rest, and only option 3 is realistic because the DM will have encounters where there are effects applying disadvantage or your source of advantage doesn't work. I have previously admitted that it's possible for champion to do well by late tier 3/tier 4, I just consider it irrelevant to most campaigns.
How is this fighter generating advantage on every turn, again? Advantage will happen from time to time, but not regularly for a champion fighter. Champion subclass has no mechanism to generate advantage, by itself.
Exactly this is absolute best case and would require ADV to get that good of odds....
And it's less than 50% without which is very far from a sure thing.
Overall it's very disingenuous to say "guaranteed" as it's very far from that.
Ride a mount with mounted combat. Attack from darkness. Stand beside a wolf totem Barbarian. Make reckless attacks. Be greater invisible. Be a grappler. Attack prone targets. Etc.
If you build for advantage, it’s there to find. If you build for Elven Advantage, it’s there too. The math is not the problem here, these were questions answered pages ago.
There are reasonably reliable sources, but they still have gaps. 50% of attacks being made with advantage (and no disadvantage) is possible, >80% really isn't.
There are reasonably reliable sources, but they still have gaps. 50% of attacks being made with advantage (and no disadvantage) is possible, >80% really isn't.
This.... Also listing several options that aren't available to the base class and rely on a party member to either have a very specific subclass choice or them not only spending their spells on you but giving up their concentration just to make you as good as a stand alone battlemaster is very telling indeed.
Also as previously mentioned you can prone yourself but to do so you have to give up an attack to attempt... Not even automatically succeed but attempt... And fall behind even more.
Overall it's completely wrong to say it's most of the time and even worse to say "every turn"
I feel that looking at the different fighters solely by DPR is fundamentally flawed, not to mention that it constantly fluctuates based on each individual encounter a party bumps into; in T1, bumping into a group of hobgoblins spells disaster for a GWM build due to their expected 18 AC, but the same character will relish in cleaving down an ogre or two.
The champion has nothing to offer a social encounter directly, but giving half-proficiency to all non-proficient physical skills opens the possibility to have profs in things like Insight or Persuasion without sacrificing too much. It can compete with Samurai, BM and PDK fairly here.
It's a similar story for exploration, but most of the other subclasses don't have any direct benefits to offer here; Samurai can compete due to a feature encouraging having a decent Wis score, but I'm drawing a blank on others.
The champion has nothing to offer a social encounter directly, but giving half-proficiency to all non-proficient physical skills opens the possibility to have profs in things like Insight or Persuasion without sacrificing too much. It can compete with Samurai, BM and PDK fairly here.
It's a similar story for exploration, but most of the other subclasses don't have any direct benefits to offer here; Samurai can compete due to a feature encouraging having a decent Wis score, but I'm drawing a blank on others.
Observe the Commanding Presence and Tactical Insight battle master maneuvers. Also, pretty much any fighter can afford to spend one or more feats on Skill Expert.
I feel that looking at the different fighters solely by DPR is fundamentally flawed, not to mention that it constantly fluctuates based on each individual encounter a party bumps into; in T1, bumping into a group of hobgoblins spells disaster for a GWM build due to their expected 18 AC, but the same character will relish in cleaving down an ogre or two.
The champion has nothing to offer a social encounter directly, but giving half-proficiency to all non-proficient physical skills opens the possibility to have profs in things like Insight or Persuasion without sacrificing too much. It can compete with Samurai, BM and PDK fairly here.
It's a similar story for exploration, but most of the other subclasses don't have any direct benefits to offer here; Samurai can compete due to a feature encouraging having a decent Wis score, but I'm drawing a blank on others.
Not really. Levels 3 through 6 all you get is improved critical (extra damage). Since that is all you get, the amount of damage you get is hugely important. Contrast that with something like the Ancestral Guardian barb subclass, they do a ton of powerful things, even though none of them are extra damage.
The Champion has to wait until level 7 to get to get a modest +2 bump to STR and DEX skills that you're not proficient. A +2 to initiative is probably the most impactful use, and even that is dismal as the only thing you get at level 7.
I feel that looking at the different fighters solely by DPR is fundamentally flawed, not to mention that it constantly fluctuates based on each individual encounter a party bumps into; in T1, bumping into a group of hobgoblins spells disaster for a GWM build due to their expected 18 AC, but the same character will relish in cleaving down an ogre or two.
The champion has nothing to offer a social encounter directly, but giving half-proficiency to all non-proficient physical skills opens the possibility to have profs in things like Insight or Persuasion without sacrificing too much. It can compete with Samurai, BM and PDK fairly here.
It's a similar story for exploration, but most of the other subclasses don't have any direct benefits to offer here; Samurai can compete due to a feature encouraging having a decent Wis score, but I'm drawing a blank on others.
Not really. Levels 3 through 6 all you get is improved critical (extra damage). Since that is all you get, the amount of damage you get is hugely important. Contrast that with something like the Ancestral Guardian barb subclass, they do a ton of powerful things, even though none of them are extra damage.
The Champion has to wait until level 7 to get to get a modest +2 bump to STR and DEX skills that you're not proficient. A +2 to initiative is probably the most impactful use, and even that is dismal as the only thing you get at level 7.
Exactly.....all champion gets for the majority of most campaign lengths (90% end by level 10) is the damage add from critical. You get literally nothing else.
Even at 7th level the bits you get are far from exciting as the initiative boost is less than one would get from the Alert feat and is generally just underwhelming as you have to lack prof. in the skill to even get a benefit....its an odd anti-synergy for a subclass focused on being a fit specimen.
So it does mostly come down to damage in comparisons....which is why its so bad that the base build is worse than pretty much every other fighter in damage.
Observe the Commanding Presence and Tactical Insight battle master maneuvers. Also, pretty much any fighter can afford to spend one or more feats on Skill Expert.
That's true, but those are choices that need to be made at very specific moments in an adventuring career; champions simply get their level 7 feature at that level-up. How many BMs would actually forego taking other powerful options like Brace/Reposte, Precision Strike, Trip Attack, etc. in favor of those? That's why they can compete pretty fairly.
It's true that champion doesn't have much prior to that point, as they only get Improved Critical before 7th. What they do get are ASIs at 4th and 6th, along with whatever racial traits they started with. These can be used to improve the chances to crit or capitalize on landing crits. Making additional attacks (TWF, PAM, CbE), acquiring reliable advantage (Grappler, Fighting Initiate, Martial Adept), rolling more d20s (halfling, Elven Accuracy, Lucky) and bonuses on crits (half-orc, GWM, Crush/Pierce/Slasher) all can contribute to a solid crit lord.
Exactly.....all champion gets for the majority of most campaign lengths (90% end by level 10) is the damage add from critical. You get literally nothing else.
Even at 7th level the bits you get are far from exciting as the initiative boost is less than one would get from the Alert feat and is generally just underwhelming as you have to lack prof. in the skill to even get a benefit....its an odd anti-synergy for a subclass focused on being a fit specimen.
So it does mostly come down to damage in comparisons....which is why its so bad that the base build is worse than pretty much every other fighter in damage.
Really Improved Critical is mechanically minor enough that it should be a rider for other subclass abilities. If you gave it:
Level 3: Improved Critical, Expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics, +Con mod to Initiative Rolls, + Strength mod to long and high jump... it would be vastly improved and it still would not be OP. That would actually make it an interesting and exciting subclass. It would be thematic and just as simple to play.
No for sure guarantee that they crit.
An advantage-exploiting champion crits at least once on a turn about as often as a typical combatant hits at least once a turn. Build for success.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
A "properly built" champion crits "at least once per turn?" Now this I've got to hear!
Even with extra attack, advantage and polearm master, you are looking at only a 47% chance that one of your three attacks will crit. 47% is a lot, but certainly not what you are saying and champion has no built in way to generate advantage on the attack rolls. And since that's a "chance" you can go multiple rounds without critting. It's all in the dice. That's the lack of control, I was talking about earlier. The battle master can use his/her maneuvers when they really need something, to help control the fight. Champion just prays for a crit...all the time. They have nothing to do outside of that.
So you're claiming it's impossible to have a properly built champion? No build crits every turn. Some builds crit an average of once per turn (but will still fail to crit some turns, generally around 70% to get at least 1 crit), but that requires one of
All of those builds heavily restrict your options, minimum level is 11 for the first at 15 for the rest, and only option 3 is realistic because the DM will have encounters where there are effects applying disadvantage or your source of advantage doesn't work. I have previously admitted that it's possible for champion to do well by late tier 3/tier 4, I just consider it irrelevant to most campaigns.
As you should...
90% end by 10th level.
So yes you have a good shot to CRIT but it's FAR from a CRIT every turn
How is critting 88% of turns not sufficient to claim "crit at least once per turn"? Lol, you people's standards are impossible, apparently the Champion needs not only meet normal expectations of competency, but be some sort of superhuman that breaks the game for you all to give them a pass :p
Like I said. A Champion can easily be built to crit once per turn about as consistently as another character might be built to land a hit at least once per turn. That's what those numbers above show.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
(a) I never said 88% of turns critting, I said 88% of attacks having advantage. (b) crits at least once per turn means 100%. If you don't mean 100%, don't say 100%.
How is this fighter generating advantage on every turn, again? Advantage will happen from time to time, but not regularly for a champion fighter. Champion subclass has no mechanism to generate advantage, by itself.
Exactly this is absolute best case and would require ADV to get that good of odds....
And it's less than 50% without which is very far from a sure thing.
Overall it's very disingenuous to say "guaranteed" as it's very far from that.
Left as an exercise for the designer. There's some fairly reliable sources of advantage, though there's a reason I only listed option 3 as realistic.
One way is to give up an attack to prone but then your DPR goes down for doing so
Ride a mount with mounted combat. Attack from darkness. Stand beside a wolf totem Barbarian. Make reckless attacks. Be greater invisible. Be a grappler. Attack prone targets. Etc.
If you build for advantage, it’s there to find. If you build for Elven Advantage, it’s there too. The math is not the problem here, these were questions answered pages ago.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
There are reasonably reliable sources, but they still have gaps. 50% of attacks being made with advantage (and no disadvantage) is possible, >80% really isn't.
This.... Also listing several options that aren't available to the base class and rely on a party member to either have a very specific subclass choice or them not only spending their spells on you but giving up their concentration just to make you as good as a stand alone battlemaster is very telling indeed.
Also as previously mentioned you can prone yourself but to do so you have to give up an attack to attempt... Not even automatically succeed but attempt... And fall behind even more.
Overall it's completely wrong to say it's most of the time and even worse to say "every turn"
I feel that looking at the different fighters solely by DPR is fundamentally flawed, not to mention that it constantly fluctuates based on each individual encounter a party bumps into; in T1, bumping into a group of hobgoblins spells disaster for a GWM build due to their expected 18 AC, but the same character will relish in cleaving down an ogre or two.
The champion has nothing to offer a social encounter directly, but giving half-proficiency to all non-proficient physical skills opens the possibility to have profs in things like Insight or Persuasion without sacrificing too much. It can compete with Samurai, BM and PDK fairly here.
It's a similar story for exploration, but most of the other subclasses don't have any direct benefits to offer here; Samurai can compete due to a feature encouraging having a decent Wis score, but I'm drawing a blank on others.
Observe the Commanding Presence and Tactical Insight battle master maneuvers. Also, pretty much any fighter can afford to spend one or more feats on Skill Expert.
Not really. Levels 3 through 6 all you get is improved critical (extra damage). Since that is all you get, the amount of damage you get is hugely important. Contrast that with something like the Ancestral Guardian barb subclass, they do a ton of powerful things, even though none of them are extra damage.
The Champion has to wait until level 7 to get to get a modest +2 bump to STR and DEX skills that you're not proficient. A +2 to initiative is probably the most impactful use, and even that is dismal as the only thing you get at level 7.
Exactly.....all champion gets for the majority of most campaign lengths (90% end by level 10) is the damage add from critical. You get literally nothing else.
Even at 7th level the bits you get are far from exciting as the initiative boost is less than one would get from the Alert feat and is generally just underwhelming as you have to lack prof. in the skill to even get a benefit....its an odd anti-synergy for a subclass focused on being a fit specimen.
So it does mostly come down to damage in comparisons....which is why its so bad that the base build is worse than pretty much every other fighter in damage.
That's true, but those are choices that need to be made at very specific moments in an adventuring career; champions simply get their level 7 feature at that level-up. How many BMs would actually forego taking other powerful options like Brace/Reposte, Precision Strike, Trip Attack, etc. in favor of those? That's why they can compete pretty fairly.
It's true that champion doesn't have much prior to that point, as they only get Improved Critical before 7th. What they do get are ASIs at 4th and 6th, along with whatever racial traits they started with. These can be used to improve the chances to crit or capitalize on landing crits. Making additional attacks (TWF, PAM, CbE), acquiring reliable advantage (Grappler, Fighting Initiate, Martial Adept), rolling more d20s (halfling, Elven Accuracy, Lucky) and bonuses on crits (half-orc, GWM, Crush/Pierce/Slasher) all can contribute to a solid crit lord.
Really Improved Critical is mechanically minor enough that it should be a rider for other subclass abilities. If you gave it:
Level 3: Improved Critical, Expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics, +Con mod to Initiative Rolls, + Strength mod to long and high jump... it would be vastly improved and it still would not be OP. That would actually make it an interesting and exciting subclass. It would be thematic and just as simple to play.