Really Improved Critical is mechanically minor enough that it should be a rider for other subclass abilities.
It's somewhat rare to grant improved critical, I don't think the devs are very good at the math of these things (look at Vicious Weapon, there's no situation where I'd take one over a Weapon, +1, let alone the same rarity Weapon, +2). Though of course we do have Hexblade's Curse.
Given the description of the Champion (The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows), I'd be tempted to just give them a flat damage bonus. Or maybe a once per turn bonus.
Really Improved Critical is mechanically minor enough that it should be a rider for other subclass abilities.
It's somewhat rare to grant improved critical, I don't think the devs are very good at the math of these things (look at Vicious Weapon, there's no situation where I'd take one over a Weapon, +1, let alone the same rarity Weapon, +2). Though of course we do have Hexblade's Curse.
Given the description of the Champion (The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows), I'd be tempted to just give them a flat damage bonus. Or maybe a once per turn bonus.
This is why I thought brute was the superior build.
Really Improved Critical is mechanically minor enough that it should be a rider for other subclass abilities.
It's somewhat rare to grant improved critical, I don't think the devs are very good at the math of these things (look at Vicious Weapon, there's no situation where I'd take one over a Weapon, +1, let alone the same rarity Weapon, +2). Though of course we do have Hexblade's Curse.
Given the description of the Champion (The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows), I'd be tempted to just give them a flat damage bonus. Or maybe a once per turn bonus.
Once per turn bonus is pretty common. Hell, the Zealot Barbarian gets Divine Fury. Right at level 3 they get +4.5 damage per turn! That completely dwarfs what the Champions get, and it scales. To add insult to injury, it they get an additional minor ability on top.
Champion's Focus: You can channel your training and battle honed focus into your attacks. Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, you can add 1d8 damage of the weapon's type.
And then have the dice size scale appropriately as you gain levels.
Champion's Focus: You can channel your training and battle honed focus into your attacks. Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, you can add 1d8 damage of the weapon's type.
And then have the dice size scale appropriately as you gain levels.
I might use a smaller die (d4 or d6) and also give them their existing crit bonuses. Doesn't break any builds that might be relying on crit fishing, just brings them up to par in tier 1/2.
Champion's Focus: You can channel your training and battle honed focus into your attacks. Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, you can add 1d8 damage of the weapon's type.
And then have the dice size scale appropriately as you gain levels.
I might use a smaller die (d4 or d6) and also give them their existing crit bonuses. Doesn't break any builds that might be relying on crit fishing, just brings them up to par in tier 1/2.
Yeah, with smaller dice but keep the improved critical. I like it 👍
It's not bad, it's just boring. "Oh look I hit him a bit harder than you did" seriously lacks the fun factor after you have said it 10 times in a session. Now a teleporting wild magic halfling barbarian with a halberd on the other hand...
A halfling with a halberd would be attacking at disadvantage since it has the heavy property.
What do you think about adding another benefit to remarkable athlete? Something crit based that still uses the half proficiency rounded up?
I was thinking that on a crit the champion gains temporary hitpoints equal to half proficiency rounded up. Makes them slightly more tanky in a way that synergizes with features that already exist, and doesn’t overlap with the Tasha damage type feats.
It even stacks with the high level survivor feature that will never be used.
What do you think about adding another benefit to remarkable athlete? Something crit based that still uses the half proficiency rounded up?
I was thinking that on a crit the champion gains temporary hitpoints equal to half proficiency rounded up. Makes them slightly more tanky in a way that synergizes with features that already exist, and doesn’t overlap with the Tasha damage type feats.
Honestly I think more features need to be added right at level three, including a better version of remarkable athlete. Then knock the additional fighting style down to level 7, and then superior critical at level 10, etc. Then come up with a new capstone.
Imo rather than moving Remarkable Athlete to 3rd level (which isn't really the Fighter's focus), moving the extra Fighting Style to 3rd level would've added some much-needed versatility and helped the class live up to its description of "well-rounded specialists."
If you could roll the max on your weapon's damage dice on crits that'd probably give it enough power to justify crits being its only real trick, but putting that at level 3 would probably make the subclass too front-loaded. Would've made a good 7th or 10th level feature though.
Imo rather than moving Remarkable Athlete to 3rd level (which isn't really the Fighter's focus), moving the extra Fighting Style to 3rd level would've added some much-needed versatility and helped the class live up to its description of "well-rounded specialists."
If you could roll the max on your weapon's damage dice on crits that'd probably give it enough power to justify crits being its only real trick, but putting that at level 3 would probably make the subclass too front-loaded. Would've made a good 7th or 10th level feature though.
That's a great idea. The extra damage from a crit would be 17 instead of 7. You crit 10% of the time. That would add 1.7 extra damage per attack, verses 0.35 crit damage per attack on a vanilla Fighter. Too much at level 3?
That amounts to 3.4 extra damage per turn with two attacks. Divine Fury gives the Zealot Barb 1d6 + half your barbarian level. That's about on par.
But then you add an additional fighting style, I'm on the fence whether both are too much. Probably so, because now Improved Critical is actually good, and you haven't even picked feats that optimize it.
Anything that particularly focuses on crits will either be too weak at low level or too strong at high, due to the scaling on crits (because of more attacks and improved crit range at 15, a level 20 crits 6x as often as a level 3). Given that the Champion already has pretty strong level scaling (just with a low baseline), the goal should be something that is strong at low levels but has weak level scaling.
Anything that particularly focuses on crits will either be too weak at low level or too strong at high, due to the scaling on crits (because of more attacks and improved crit range at 15, a level 20 crits 6x as often as a level 3). Given that the Champion already has pretty strong level scaling (just with a low baseline), the goal should be something that is strong at low levels but has weak level scaling.
Let's compare to Zealot Barbarian's Divine Fury, and as I write this I don't know how the numbers will turn out.
Divine Fury: Level 5 (two attacks) adds about 4.5 extra damage per turn, and 5.5 at level 6 <--- caveat! I did not calculate a slight chance to miss all attacks, nor extra possible crit damage. It should be close
Improved Critical Homebrew (max all dice on a crit): Level 5 (two attacks with Greatsword). Adds 2.7 extra crit damage (over a regular fighter) per turn on average.
______________________________
Divine Fury: Level 11 (three attacks) adds about 8.5 extra damage per turn, and 9.5 at level 12 <--- caveat! I did not calculate a slight chance to miss all attacks, nor extra possible crit damage. It should be close
Improved Critical Homebrew: Level 11 (three attacks with Greatsword) Adds 4.05 extra crit damage (over a regular fighter) per turn on average.
______________________________
Divine Furdy: Level 15: adds about 10.5 extra damage per turn <--- caveat! I did not calculate a slight chance to miss all attacks, nor extra possible crit damage. It should be close
Superior Critical Homebrew: Level 15 (three attacks with Greatsword) Adds 6.6 extra crit damage (over a regular fighter) per turn on average.
Final Caveat: Homebrew Champion's damage numbers do not include feats, certain racial features, nor magic weapons such as flame-tongue that enhance the expanded crit range and damage.
That's a great idea. The extra damage from a crit would be 17 instead of 7. You crit 10% of the time. That would add 1.7 extra damage per attack, verses 0.35 crit damage per attack on a vanilla Fighter. Too much at level 3?
Probably not for a 2-handed weapon, but I'm also thinking of the multiclassing implications and builds that use one-handed or ranged weapons.
Anything that particularly focuses on crits will either be too weak at low level or too strong at high, due to the scaling on crits (because of more attacks and improved crit range at 15, a level 20 crits 6x as often as a level 3).
Unless you've got an effect like Crusher where the side effect itself is the goal and not the crits, number of attacks doesn't really change things. Having twice as many attacks roughly doubles a Champion's damage just like it does to every other subclass. Crit damage is a per-hit bonus, not a "how likely are you to get at least 1 crit per round" bonus, and if the damage bonus is proportional to your weapon you're not really gaming the system by, say, downgrading to TWF for that extra hit. You traded bigger crits for more small crits.
15th level does change the game somewhat but by then every subclass has major upgrades. Battle Masters get more maneuvers and both larger die size and number of dice, Eldritch Knights can Haste themselves, Cavaliers have great crowd control, etc. That second bump in crit chance just lets Champions try to keep up, it doesn't really give them a leg up over the competition.
I think it time to put this pointless argument to bed, your arguments are sound mathematically on average yes the champion is weak, but the thing is the dice they don't give a turd about math, they just roll how they want and let me tell you one of my most memorable time as a player was playing dnd was as a champion fighter and this isn't just nostalgia talking. that campaign was about 90 session long and the total number of time I crit (cause I decided to tally it by the time I was level 3) was about 568 times (note these weren't all attack rolls but a good half of them were), the game was by all mean a fun game and the dice was always hot for that character with few exceptions. the funny thing was that the party had 3 fighter a battle master and a samurai. the samurai player was all cocky saying the same thing said in this thread a lot that mathematically the champion was weak and that I should play something else more useful like a cleric (our party didn't have a dedicated healer), boy did I make him eat his words.
but its wasn't just the rolls it was how I played the character as well. you see one of the few advantages of champion fighter was that my bonus action was almost always free so I got creative Kicked buckets I used terrain to my advantage, I would jump off building to do extra damage to my enemy's from the fall. I would kick buckets into peoples feet to trip them up I would slide in between larger creatures to attack them in their vulnerable underbelly, I would carry around pocket sand I would throw into people eyes, I mean I even sent a table flying at 2 skeletons and a skeletal minotaur doing 3d10 initially but it crit doing 6d10 bludgeoning instead (you wouldn't believe how often remarkable athlete came in handy in those situations), and the DM was never afraid to give me magic items because of how vanilla champion was especially common ones, I remember getting my hands on a piece endless chalk and I did some fun stuff with that chalk (may it rest in peace), the core point of dnd is be creative and come up with solutions to the problems the dm has created for you, after all its a roleplaying game the point of game is do whatever you want (within reason of course). I felt that game help me get into touch with the core aspect of dnd and no other subclass has ever given me that experience more so then Champion is simplistic and reminded me that dnd is always about what's optimal cause in the end circumstance will always throw the best laid plans to the curb. dnd at its core is a roleplaying game were creativity is the most powerful exploit of them all and champions limitation encourages that creativity.
when it comes down to it looking at the game as though it is just a bunch of numbers on a sheet if foolish and naïve and fails the grasp the full range of things one can do playing dnd, so try not to forsake the forest (hundreds of possible scenarios and choice) for a tree (I make the attack action this round and do this much damage).
I wouldn't argue it's really bad either, though. Not the best, probably towards the bottom of the fighter subclasses, but not the worst. And frequently, Champion is just a three level dip for optimizers.
Champion feels like a trap to me when talking optimization. Sure there are a few mechanically interesting builds, but that doesn’t make them effective.
I think the champion could get a feature added that makes it immune to critical hits, and if a creature rolls a crit that’s negates by the feature, the champion could make a reaction attack.
maybe make that the level 7 feature and drop remarkable athlete to 3.
I think it time to put this pointless argument to bed, your arguments are sound mathematically on average yes the champion is weak, but the thing is the dice they don't give a turd about math, they just roll how they want and let me tell you one of my most memorable time as a player was playing dnd was as a champion fighter and this isn't just nostalgia talking. that campaign was about 90 session long and the total number of time I crit (cause I decided to tally it by the time I was level 3) was about 568 times (note these weren't all attack rolls but a good half of them were), the game was by all mean a fun game and the dice was always hot for that character with few exceptions. the funny thing was that the party had 3 fighter a battle master and a samurai. the samurai player was all cocky saying the same thing said in this thread a lot that mathematically the champion was weak and that I should play something else more useful like a cleric (our party didn't have a dedicated healer), boy did I make him eat his words.
but its wasn't just the rolls it was how I played the character as well. you see one of the few advantages of champion fighter was that my bonus action was almost always free so I got creative Kicked buckets I used terrain to my advantage, I would jump off building to do extra damage to my enemy's from the fall. I would kick buckets into peoples feet to trip them up I would slide in between larger creatures to attack them in their vulnerable underbelly, I would carry around pocket sand I would throw into people eyes, I mean I even sent a table flying at 2 skeletons and a skeletal minotaur doing 3d10 initially but it crit doing 6d10 bludgeoning instead (you wouldn't believe how often remarkable athlete came in handy in those situations), and the DM was never afraid to give me magic items because of how vanilla champion was especially common ones, I remember getting my hands on a piece endless chalk and I did some fun stuff with that chalk (may it rest in peace), the core point of dnd is be creative and come up with solutions to the problems the dm has created for you, after all its a roleplaying game the point of game is do whatever you want (within reason of course). I felt that game help me get into touch with the core aspect of dnd and no other subclass has ever given me that experience more so then Champion is simplistic and reminded me that dnd is always about what's optimal cause in the end circumstance will always throw the best laid plans to the curb. dnd at its core is a roleplaying game were creativity is the most powerful exploit of them all and champions limitation encourages that creativity.
when it comes down to it looking at the game as though it is just a bunch of numbers on a sheet if foolish and naïve and fails the grasp the full range of things one can do playing dnd, so try not to forsake the forest (hundreds of possible scenarios and choice) for a tree (I make the attack action this round and do this much damage).
It would take an average of 5680 attack rolls to crit that many times. Averaging 63.111 attack rolls per session. Or... TEN very long (six-round) combat encounters per session, which isn't likely. If these were normal sessions and you rolled that many crits, that would be a candidate for the greatest statistical anomaly in the history of D&D. Also, you said only half of them were attack rolls. How do you crit without an attack roll?
Also, “about” 568? That’s an oddly specific number for an approximation.
" you see one of the few advantages of champion fighter was that my bonus action was almost always free so I got creative Kicked buckets" - you can't kick buckets as a bonus action.
"I would slide in between larger creatures to attack them in their vulnerable underbelly" - this is known as "calling shots", which you cannot do, rules as written.
What you wrote so far and reading the rest, I'm trying to figure out if this is all satire.
you missed the entire point. I got incredibly lucky that campaign and rolled extraordinarily well one of the reason why I noted all my rolls made.
you can't kick a bucket as a bonus action, are you the DM of my game, not everything is rules as written the DM decided kicking a bucket was a bonus action and so it was.
again "calling shots" may not be rules as written can get stuffed if dm says he want it.
the core of my point is that DnD is countless number of scenarios in and out of game, where damage is not the only factor that makes a good subclass. and that the dice don't always roll average.
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It's somewhat rare to grant improved critical, I don't think the devs are very good at the math of these things (look at Vicious Weapon, there's no situation where I'd take one over a Weapon, +1, let alone the same rarity Weapon, +2). Though of course we do have Hexblade's Curse.
Given the description of the Champion (The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows), I'd be tempted to just give them a flat damage bonus. Or maybe a once per turn bonus.
This is why I thought brute was the superior build.
Once per turn bonus is pretty common. Hell, the Zealot Barbarian gets Divine Fury. Right at level 3 they get +4.5 damage per turn! That completely dwarfs what the Champions get, and it scales. To add insult to injury, it they get an additional minor ability on top.
Champion's Focus: You can channel your training and battle honed focus into your attacks. Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, you can add 1d8 damage of the weapon's type.
And then have the dice size scale appropriately as you gain levels.
I might use a smaller die (d4 or d6) and also give them their existing crit bonuses. Doesn't break any builds that might be relying on crit fishing, just brings them up to par in tier 1/2.
Yeah, with smaller dice but keep the improved critical. I like it 👍
A halfling with a halberd would be attacking at disadvantage since it has the heavy property.
What do you think about adding another benefit to remarkable athlete? Something crit based that still uses the half proficiency rounded up?
I was thinking that on a crit the champion gains temporary hitpoints equal to half proficiency rounded up. Makes them slightly more tanky in a way that synergizes with features that already exist, and doesn’t overlap with the Tasha damage type feats.
It even stacks with the high level survivor feature that will never be used.
Honestly I think more features need to be added right at level three, including a better version of remarkable athlete. Then knock the additional fighting style down to level 7, and then superior critical at level 10, etc. Then come up with a new capstone.
Imo rather than moving Remarkable Athlete to 3rd level (which isn't really the Fighter's focus), moving the extra Fighting Style to 3rd level would've added some much-needed versatility and helped the class live up to its description of "well-rounded specialists."
If you could roll the max on your weapon's damage dice on crits that'd probably give it enough power to justify crits being its only real trick, but putting that at level 3 would probably make the subclass too front-loaded. Would've made a good 7th or 10th level feature though.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
That's a great idea. The extra damage from a crit would be 17 instead of 7. You crit 10% of the time. That would add 1.7 extra damage per attack, verses 0.35 crit damage per attack on a vanilla Fighter. Too much at level 3?
That amounts to 3.4 extra damage per turn with two attacks. Divine Fury gives the Zealot Barb 1d6 + half your barbarian level. That's about on par.
But then you add an additional fighting style, I'm on the fence whether both are too much. Probably so, because now Improved Critical is actually good, and you haven't even picked feats that optimize it.
Anything that particularly focuses on crits will either be too weak at low level or too strong at high, due to the scaling on crits (because of more attacks and improved crit range at 15, a level 20 crits 6x as often as a level 3). Given that the Champion already has pretty strong level scaling (just with a low baseline), the goal should be something that is strong at low levels but has weak level scaling.
Let's compare to Zealot Barbarian's Divine Fury, and as I write this I don't know how the numbers will turn out.
Divine Fury: Level 5 (two attacks) adds about 4.5 extra damage per turn, and 5.5 at level 6 <--- caveat! I did not calculate a slight chance to miss all attacks, nor extra possible crit damage. It should be close
Improved Critical Homebrew (max all dice on a crit): Level 5 (two attacks with Greatsword). Adds 2.7 extra crit damage (over a regular fighter) per turn on average.
______________________________
Divine Fury: Level 11 (three attacks) adds about 8.5 extra damage per turn, and 9.5 at level 12 <--- caveat! I did not calculate a slight chance to miss all attacks, nor extra possible crit damage. It should be close
Improved Critical Homebrew: Level 11 (three attacks with Greatsword) Adds 4.05 extra crit damage (over a regular fighter) per turn on average.
______________________________
Divine Furdy: Level 15: adds about 10.5 extra damage per turn <--- caveat! I did not calculate a slight chance to miss all attacks, nor extra possible crit damage. It should be close
Superior Critical Homebrew: Level 15 (three attacks with Greatsword) Adds 6.6 extra crit damage (over a regular fighter) per turn on average.
Final Caveat: Homebrew Champion's damage numbers do not include feats, certain racial features, nor magic weapons such as flame-tongue that enhance the expanded crit range and damage.
Probably not for a 2-handed weapon, but I'm also thinking of the multiclassing implications and builds that use one-handed or ranged weapons.
Unless you've got an effect like Crusher where the side effect itself is the goal and not the crits, number of attacks doesn't really change things. Having twice as many attacks roughly doubles a Champion's damage just like it does to every other subclass. Crit damage is a per-hit bonus, not a "how likely are you to get at least 1 crit per round" bonus, and if the damage bonus is proportional to your weapon you're not really gaming the system by, say, downgrading to TWF for that extra hit. You traded bigger crits for more small crits.
15th level does change the game somewhat but by then every subclass has major upgrades. Battle Masters get more maneuvers and both larger die size and number of dice, Eldritch Knights can Haste themselves, Cavaliers have great crowd control, etc. That second bump in crit chance just lets Champions try to keep up, it doesn't really give them a leg up over the competition.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I think it time to put this pointless argument to bed, your arguments are sound mathematically on average yes the champion is weak, but the thing is the dice they don't give a turd about math, they just roll how they want and let me tell you one of my most memorable time as a player was playing dnd was as a champion fighter and this isn't just nostalgia talking. that campaign was about 90 session long and the total number of time I crit (cause I decided to tally it by the time I was level 3) was about 568 times (note these weren't all attack rolls but a good half of them were), the game was by all mean a fun game and the dice was always hot for that character with few exceptions. the funny thing was that the party had 3 fighter a battle master and a samurai. the samurai player was all cocky saying the same thing said in this thread a lot that mathematically the champion was weak and that I should play something else more useful like a cleric (our party didn't have a dedicated healer), boy did I make him eat his words.
but its wasn't just the rolls it was how I played the character as well. you see one of the few advantages of champion fighter was that my bonus action was almost always free so I got creative Kicked buckets I used terrain to my advantage, I would jump off building to do extra damage to my enemy's from the fall. I would kick buckets into peoples feet to trip them up I would slide in between larger creatures to attack them in their vulnerable underbelly, I would carry around pocket sand I would throw into people eyes, I mean I even sent a table flying at 2 skeletons and a skeletal minotaur doing 3d10 initially but it crit doing 6d10 bludgeoning instead (you wouldn't believe how often remarkable athlete came in handy in those situations), and the DM was never afraid to give me magic items because of how vanilla champion was especially common ones, I remember getting my hands on a piece endless chalk and I did some fun stuff with that chalk (may it rest in peace), the core point of dnd is be creative and come up with solutions to the problems the dm has created for you, after all its a roleplaying game the point of game is do whatever you want (within reason of course). I felt that game help me get into touch with the core aspect of dnd and no other subclass has ever given me that experience more so then Champion is simplistic and reminded me that dnd is always about what's optimal cause in the end circumstance will always throw the best laid plans to the curb. dnd at its core is a roleplaying game were creativity is the most powerful exploit of them all and champions limitation encourages that creativity.
when it comes down to it looking at the game as though it is just a bunch of numbers on a sheet if foolish and naïve and fails the grasp the full range of things one can do playing dnd, so try not to forsake the forest (hundreds of possible scenarios and choice) for a tree (I make the attack action this round and do this much damage).
*shakes the thread that has been sleeping since September 15th back awake*
"Hey! It's time to go to bed!"
*chuckle*
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
Yeah it's months later and the champion is still not really good.
I wouldn't argue it's really bad either, though. Not the best, probably towards the bottom of the fighter subclasses, but not the worst. And frequently, Champion is just a three level dip for optimizers.
Champion feels like a trap to me when talking optimization. Sure there are a few mechanically interesting builds, but that doesn’t make them effective.
I think the champion could get a feature added that makes it immune to critical hits, and if a creature rolls a crit that’s negates by the feature, the champion could make a reaction attack.
maybe make that the level 7 feature and drop remarkable athlete to 3.
It would take an average of 5680 attack rolls to crit that many times. Averaging 63.111 attack rolls per session. Or... TEN very long (six-round) combat encounters per session, which isn't likely. If these were normal sessions and you rolled that many crits, that would be a candidate for the greatest statistical anomaly in the history of D&D. Also, you said only half of them were attack rolls. How do you crit without an attack roll?
Also, “about” 568? That’s an oddly specific number for an approximation.
" you see one of the few advantages of champion fighter was that my bonus action was almost always free so I got creative Kicked buckets" - you can't kick buckets as a bonus action.
"I would slide in between larger creatures to attack them in their vulnerable underbelly" - this is known as "calling shots", which you cannot do, rules as written.
What you wrote so far and reading the rest, I'm trying to figure out if this is all satire.
you missed the entire point. I got incredibly lucky that campaign and rolled extraordinarily well one of the reason why I noted all my rolls made.
you can't kick a bucket as a bonus action, are you the DM of my game, not everything is rules as written the DM decided kicking a bucket was a bonus action and so it was.
again "calling shots" may not be rules as written can get stuffed if dm says he want it.
the core of my point is that DnD is countless number of scenarios in and out of game, where damage is not the only factor that makes a good subclass. and that the dice don't always roll average.