Here is a Level 5 Comparison (again, without BM Maneuvers included, so you can compare on your own):
2 Attacks per round, 3 Prof Bonus, 16 AC target, Str +4
CHAMPION WITH FLAIL/CRUSHER
BATTLEMASTER WITH FLAIL/CRUSHER
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
First Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
5.55
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.33
Second Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
5.92
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.44
Third Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
6.23
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.54
Fourth Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
6.49
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.65
First Attack Crusher?
0.00
0.00
Second Attack Crusher
0.15
8.00
0.05
7.58
Third Attack Crusher
0.28
8.00
0.10
7.58
Fourth Attack Crusher
0.39
8.00
0.14
7.58
TOTAL DMG
2 ATTACKS
11.47
2 ATTACKS
10.76
DIfference of 0.71 DPR.
CHAMPION WITH 2 FLAILS/CRUSHER/TWF/DUAL WIELDER
BATTLEMASTER WITH 2 FLAILS/CRUSHER/TWF/DUAL WIELDER
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
First Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
5.55
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.33
Second Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
5.92
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.44
Third Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
6.23
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.54
Fourth Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
6.49
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.65
Bonus Attack
5.10
0.45
5.55
6.72
5.10
0.23
5.33
5.74
First Attack Crusher?
0.00
0.00
Second Attack Crusher
0.15
8.00
0.05
7.58
Third Attack Crusher
0.28
8.00
0.10
7.58
Fourth Attack Crusher
0.39
8.00
0.14
7.58
Bonus Attack Crusher
0.48
8.00
0.19
7.58
TOTAL DMG
2 ATTACKS + BA
17.70
2 ATTACKS + BA
16.31
Difference of 1.39 DPR
CHAMPION WITH MAUL/CRUSHER/GWF/+10
BATTLEMASTER WITH MAUL/CRUSHER/GWF/+10
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
First Attack
7.82
0.83
8.65
8.65
7.82
0.42
8.23
8.23
Second Attack
7.82
0.83
8.65
9.52
7.82
0.42
8.23
8.51
Third Attack
7.82
0.83
8.65
10.27
7.82
0.42
8.23
8.77
Fourth Attack
7.82
0.83
8.65
10.90
7.82
0.42
8.23
9.01
Bonus Attack
7.82
0.83
8.65
1.72
7.82
0.42
8.23
0.46
First Attack Crusher?
0.00
Bonus Attack?
0.15
0.00
Bonus Attack?
0.05
Second Attack Crusher
0.15
14.48
After 2nd Attack
0.05
13.71
After 2nd Attack
Third Attack Crusher
0.28
14.48
0.10
13.71
Fourth Attack Crusher
0.39
14.48
0.14
13.71
Bonus Attack Crusher
0.48
14.48
0.19
13.71
TOTAL DMG
2 ATTACKS + BA
19.89
2 ATTACKS + BA
17.20
Difference of 2.69 DPR
In my next iteration I'll include Precision attack, which is likely the most powerful BM Maneuvers, and will probably provide a decent breakeven comparison without getting into the weeds too much in Maneuvers.
Yes, if you assume the battle master never uses any superiority dice, the champion has higher dpr. What is that supposed to prove? The simple case is "We will ignore conditions", not "we will completely ignore superiority dice".
Yes, if you assume the battle master never uses any superiority dice, the champion has higher dpr. What is that supposed to prove? The simple case is "We will ignore conditions", not "we will completely ignore superiority dice".
Not sure you read Brewsky's first and last lines...?
Here is a Level 5 Comparison (again, without BM Maneuvers included, so you can compare on your own):
...
In my next iteration I'll include Precision attack, which is likely the most powerful BM Maneuvers, and will probably provide a decent breakeven comparison without getting into the weeds too much in Maneuvers.
Yes, if you assume the battle master never uses any superiority dice, the champion has higher dpr. What is that supposed to prove? The simple case is "We will ignore conditions", not "we will completely ignore superiority dice".
Not sure you read Brewsky's first and last lines...?
Here is a Level 5 Comparison (again, without BM Maneuvers included, so you can compare on your own):
...
In my next iteration I'll include Precision attack, which is likely the most powerful BM Maneuvers, and will probably provide a decent breakeven comparison without getting into the weeds too much in Maneuvers.
I have a lot of questions.According to him it's Level 5, 2 Attacks per round, 3 Prof Bonus, 16 AC target, Str +4
First, where did he copy and paste that from?
If it's level 5, why is it showing 4 attacks?
What is the "adjusted" damage and why is it going up with each subsequent attack?
Starting at the very top, the math on the "first attack" checks out. But NO damage was added to the Battle Master. It's just showing base Fighter damage with no Combat Superiority dice damage added. Yet, it's labeled, "BATTLEMASTER WITH FLAIL/CRUSHER" Why?
Also, worth noting-- If all things equal damage-wise, that would make the Battle Master FAR superior to the Champion. ALL the Champion is brings to the table is extra damage from crits. The Battle Master is bringing so much more than just extra damage. And I'm not convinced the Champion measures up, even in JUST the damage department.
Edit: I think I figured out the "adjusted" damage, it's probably factoring in crusher. If you score a crit, the next attacks are with advantage. Still, adding a 3rd and 4th attack and then showing the totals after saying it's "Level 5, 2 attacks" - is not providing the actual numbers.
So, simplified math: assuming 70% hit probability, which is fairly average, and 2d6+4 damage, an unsubclassed fighter averages 8.1 damage per normal attack, a champion averages 8.45. On an attack with advantage, the vanilla fighter averages 10.69, the champion averages 11.34. This means the unsubclassed fighter gets +2.59 dpa, the champion gets +2.89.
Thus, without crusher feat, the vanilla fighter is averaging 16.2 dpr, the champion is averaging 16.9. So, let's consider the effect of Crusher.
The unsubclassed fighter is making 5% of its second attacks (1 per turn) with advantage. The benefit is .05*2.59 = 0.13 dpr. Total 16.33.
The champion is making 10% of its second attacks (1 per turn) with advantage. The benefit is .1*2.89 = 0.29 dpr. Total 17.19 (ahead by 0.86 dpr)
First of all, crusher is pretty unappealing (it becomes better with allies; if you assume you have a second fighter, the value for the champion is a 19% chance the ally has advantage on two attacks, or 0.98 dpr for an unsubclassed fighter; casters usually benefit less). I doubt a build that isn't designed for crit fishing would take it in the first place. That said, with some party compositions the advantage for the champion could approach 2 dpr.
To do a proper comparison against a battle master, we have to decide how frequently we can spend superiority dice and what superiority dice are worth. I'll assume 10 rounds combat per short rest. If you use Precision Strike on an attack that misses by 1-4, it's worth around 10 damage, or 19 damage with great weapon mastery. This is commonly the best option, though Brace and Riposte can be competitive, and with certain team compositions Commander's Strike and Trip Attack can be competitive. You have a 40% chance per round of getting a chance to use Precision Strike, so it adds +4 dpr for the first 10 rounds.
Brewsky, I think it'd help a lot if you just posted your results as formula rather than a table. It'd be a lot easier to figure out where the numbers are coming from, and the way the tables are formatted in your posts makes them absolutely massive.
To do a proper comparison against a battle master, we have to decide how frequently we can spend superiority dice and what superiority dice are worth. I'll assume 10 rounds combat per short rest. If you use Precision Strike on an attack that misses by 1-4, it's worth around 10 damage, or 19 damage with great weapon mastery. This is commonly the best option, though Brace and Riposte can be competitive, and with certain team compositions Commander's Strike and Trip Attack can be competitive. You have a 40% chance per round of getting a chance to use Precision Strike, so it adds +4 dpr for the first 10 rounds.
I'm curious how you're working out that "worth around 10 damage". If you're doing 2d6(reroll 1-2) + 4, that's worth 12.33, but you're also only getting the benefit 5/8 times (rolling a 1-3 on the d8 will still miss). That works out 7.7.
However, an opportunity to Brace or Riposte would be worth more since you're getting the 1d8 on top of your normal damage. At 70% hit rate (no advantage) that's an extra 0.7(8.33 + 4 + 4.5) + 0.05(8.33 + 4.5) = 12.42. It's pretty easy to set either one up if the enemy has a low hit rate/low single attack damage; you just have to leave their reach and either riposte their missed opportunity attack or brace their approach. You can make this even safer by using Trip Attack first to mess up their opportunity attack.
There's also Quick Toss, which lets you make a bonus action ranged attack with superiority dice damage as long as you have a hand free and a throwable weapon handy. The gains aren't as good (you're probably throwing a 1d6 weapon instead of 2d6), but you can use it on the same round as Brace or Riposte if you need to deal damage in a hurry.
Also, if you roll a 20 that's a guaranteed 2d8 through any of Distracting Strike, Tripping Attack, etc. for an average of 9.
So even with just 10 rounds to work with and disregarding party members, it's easy for a Battle Master to squeeze extra damage out of a mix of different circumstances, and they can always use up any unused dice at the end of what they suspect to be their last encounter before a rest. More rounds would give the Champion more chances to roll 19s, but it also gives the Battle Master more rounds to roll 20s, more opportunities for Brace or Riposte, and lets them be more selective with Precision Attack (e.g. only using it when they missed by 1-2 to raise the success chance to 7/8).
I still would like an explanation for why he provided a table that he claims is comparing Champion to Battle Master, but then omitted the Battle Master's superiority dice. Without those dice it's literally JUST a vanilla Fighter.
Furthermore, why he's showing the final totals for 4 attacks when the comparison is supposed to be level 5 with two attacks. I suspect he's plugging them into an online calculator that already has four attacks preset. But then you should remove the last two attacks, then calculate the total DPR with just 2 so you can share it in the thread.
I'm curious how you're working out that "worth around 10 damage". If you're doing 2d6(reroll 1-2) + 4, that's worth 12.33, but you're also only getting the benefit 5/8 times (rolling a 1-3 on the d8 will still miss). That works out 7.7.
I screwed up (I wasn't assuming great weapon fighting). If you use a die on a miss by 1-4, your chance of hitting (since you didn't necessarily miss by exactly 4) is 26/32, multiplied by 11, =8.94.
I'm curious how you're working out that "worth around 10 damage". If you're doing 2d6(reroll 1-2) + 4, that's worth 12.33, but you're also only getting the benefit 5/8 times (rolling a 1-3 on the d8 will still miss). That works out 7.7.
I screwed up (I wasn't assuming great weapon fighting). If you use a die on a miss by 1-4, your chance of hitting (since you didn't necessarily miss by exactly 4) is 26/32, multiplied by 11, =8.94.
I would calculate by assuming you miss by 2.5, the average of 1, 2, 3, and 4.
I'm curious how you're working out that "worth around 10 damage". If you're doing 2d6(reroll 1-2) + 4, that's worth 12.33, but you're also only getting the benefit 5/8 times (rolling a 1-3 on the d8 will still miss). That works out 7.7.
I screwed up (I wasn't assuming great weapon fighting). If you use a die on a miss by 1-4, your chance of hitting (since you didn't necessarily miss by exactly 4) is 26/32, multiplied by 11, =8.94.
I would calculate by assuming you miss by 2.5, the average of 1, 2, 3, and 4.
I screwed up (I wasn't assuming great weapon fighting). If you use a die on a miss by 1-4, your chance of hitting (since you didn't necessarily miss by exactly 4) is 26/32, multiplied by 11, =8.94.
Ah, you're right. My calculations were for missing by exactly 4, but that's only 1/4 of the possible cases and the other 3/4 have better odds.
Worth keeping in mind when doing these comparisons that if advantage is introduced the opportunities for Precision Attack usually drop, but other maneuvers become more effective (more crits, higher chance to Trip Attack on the first attack, higher chance to hit with Brace/Riposte/Quick Toss.)
I still would like an explanation for why he provided a table that he claims is comparing Champion to Battle Master, but then omitted the Battle Master's superiority dice. Without those dice it's literally JUST a vanilla Fighter.
His first line and last line provided that explanation.
I mean, you guys can argue with his numbers, and I sure aren't defending them (too lazy to check), but at least read what he wrote. This is the second time I've written this.
---
***IGNORE ALL OF THIS UNTIL I CAN GET SOME SLEEP AND WORK OUT WHY ON EARTH I GAVE EVERYONE 4 ATTACKS A ROUND***
(In my defense, I am home sick with a migraine, can't quite see, and was puking every now and then. Hey, stats distract me from being miserable. I will re-do later, but definitely devalue Crusher in the below calcs).
Alright, I'll be less lazy. I think you guys are assuming AC14 while Brewsky is assuming AC16, but my own experience would be ~AC14.
2 Attacks per round, 3 Prof Bonus, 14 AC target, Str +4, Maul/Crusher/GWF
***I regret not doing this in excel, but by the time I regretted it, I was almost done. Sorry for the many little dropped rounding errors... It's close enough, bleh. Sorry if stuff is wrong, I am out of time.
Average damage per attack (without crits) is 0.7 (chance to hit) x 12.33 damage (rerolling 1 or 2) = 8.63.
The damage added for a crit (same for both) is just the dice, so 8.33. For a Champion that's a 10% chance, so 0.83 per attack, and for a Battle Master it's 5%, so 0.42. This is going to change thanks to Crusher, but it's fair to say that counting crits, before Crusher, not using any Sup Dice, we have a really simple equation:
Champ simple average per attack: 9.47
BM simple average per attack: 9.07
With 4 attacks in a round:
Champ simple average dpr: 37.88
BM simple average dpr: 36.28
So without Crusher, the Champ is ahead of an effectively unspecced fighter by 1.6 damage per round.
(Brewksy has a bonus attack up there - sorry, not played for ages, so ... I don't know where that's coming from. Please let me know).
Crusher, though, is obviously a big part of a Champ's shtick, since he has twice the chance to apply it each attack. So for attacks 2, 3 and 4, we look at the chance crusher was applied already. For the Champ, it'll go:
Champ attack 2 crusher: 10%
Champ attack 3 crusher: 19%
Champ attack 4 crusher: 27%
And for the BM it's:
BM attack 2 crusher: 5%
BM attack 3 crusher: 10%
BM attack 4 crusher: 14%
Yes I am too lazy to apply decimals to the percentages.
(I'd like to take a moment to reflect on the fact that, extra attacks from Sup Dice aside, the Champ has about twice the chance of applying Crusher each turn, which is likely to contribute a lot of damage to the party over time. Sure, it'll often be wasted on something that died, but in a tough-enemy fight (e.g. boss battle) we could be looking at a very significant number of extra d20's given out by the Champ.
With Sup Dice giving +4 attacks over, say, the 10 turns of combat, the difference isn't quite as great, but still strongly in the Champ's favour).
Anyway, the damage bonus for having Crusher is a greater chance to hit (91%), and a greater chance to crit (going up to 19% for the Champ, 10% for the BM).
That gives us average advantage damage per attack (without crits) of 0.91 (chance to hit) x 12.33 damage (rerolling 1 or 2) = 11.22.
...and with bonus crit damage: for a Champion that's a 19% chance, so 1.58 per attack, and for a Battle Master it's 10%, so 0.83 Still not using any Sup Dice, we get average damage per attack with advantage:
Champ simple advantage average per attack: 12.80
BM simple advantage average per attack: 12.05
We can only count the extra damage our dude was going to be doing anyway (simple average way up above). So the EXTRA damage due to Crusher is:
Champ advantage bonus per attack: 3.33
BM simple advantage bonus per attack: 2.98
Putting those back into the Crusher table up above, we get the extra damage per attack from advantage applied by the Fighter's own crusher:
Champ attack 2 crusher: 10% x 3.33 = 0.333
Champ attack 3 crusher: 19% x 3.33 = 0.633
Champ attack 4 crusher: 27% x 3.33= 0.899
And for the BM it's:
BM attack 2 crusher: 5% x 2.98 = 0.149
BM attack 3 crusher: 10% x 2.98 = 0.298
BM attack 4 crusher: 14% x 2.98 = 0.417
So the extra damage per round, due to crusher:
Champ damage per round due to crusher = 1.87
BM damage per round due to crusher = 0.86
So over a round, we have a difference in damage **before we count Sup Dice**: the Champ out damages the BM by 1.6 (before Crusher) + 1 (extra due to Crusher) = 2.6.
With Crusher, our Champ out-damages an effectively unspecced warrior by 2.6dpr.
So now let's add Sup Dice.
This is complicated! But also simple...?
Look, you could use Riposte only when you have Crusher active, or when you have advantage. But then, the kind of enemy you're riposting might not be optimal, or you might need your reaction for AOO, or you might end up not using your dice. Bleh. Look, I'm out of time, basically (haha), and I like InquisitiveCoder's numbers and reasoning for a Brace / Riposte. I'm going with that (with a caveat in a moment)!
Assuming 10 rounds of combat to use up 4 dice (and again, respecting IC's argument that if your DM gives you more, you also have a better chance to optimise these): we get 4 supp dice x 12.33 damage divided over 10 turns = 4.92dpr. Note well that it is less if we're using several of the other BM options.
Our BM out-damages Champ by about 2.3 dpr, or less if you use less damaging BM options.
(Edit, sorry, just skimming, but the more reliably-applied-to-the-right-target /non-reaction-using ability of Precision, going on the numbers above, gives a 10-turn average (8.94 damage x 4 dice divided by 10 turns) of only +3.58dpr, or about 1dpr over the Champ).
Which brings the final decision down to a couple of simple factors:
Is the simplicity of the Champ, who will never waste a Sup Dice for lack of good opportunity, worth the loss of 1 to 2.3 dpr and/or the other utility of the BM? (Objectively: no, I don't think so)
And is the chance that the Champ applies Crusher for the rest of the party, where the BM doesn't, worth more than that (fairly minor) additional damage and utility of the BM?
And it's the last question that matters, I think. I don't think there's a good answer, and it'll depend on how long your DM goes between rests, what sort of enemies you fight, and what your party's composition is. I think the advantage is to the BM, pretty clearly, but it's not so overwhelming that you couldn't justify a Champ.
The take-aways for me are:
The two classes, *assuming the Champ takes Crusher*, are fairly well balanced, with the edge going to BM, but not by far.
Without Crusher, the Champ is a lot less effective. If you're optimising, I don't think you can even look at the Champ without Crusher.
Having said all of that: the Champ has an advantage in that whenever you crit everyone cheers. Cheering is fun.
Smelly, why do you think he meant 14 AC? The math checks out for 16 AC as he specified.
Also, how did you factor in the extra damage from superiority dice? The damage per attack is directly affected by how often you use them, which is affected by how many short rests you get, how long combats last, and which ones you use.
It wasn't "conveniently ignored", it was purposefully ignored so you could compare Apples to Apples, and apply your decision making to decide whether the Battlemaster Techniques overcame the difference in damage per round. I literally wrote this in the post, which you "conveniently ignored".
If you don't include the damage added by BM, but do include them for Champion, how is that apples to apples? Why not just label it "Fighter with no subclass"? Because that's the numbers you included. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you just have a strange way of thinking.
Smelly, why do you think he meant 14 AC? The math checks out for 16 AC as he specified.
Also, how did you factor in the extra damage from superiority dice? The damage per attack is directly affected by how often you use them, which is affected by how many short rests you get, how long combats last, and which ones you use.
I thought I explained AC14...? That's what folk above were using (70% chance to hit = 14 AC) and in my experience is more realistic for level 5 folk. Feel free to re-calculate for AC16 though.
I think you guys are assuming AC14 while Brewsky is assuming AC16, but my own experience would be ~AC14.
I also thought I explained how I calculated the extra damage? It's from IC's calcs above. I stated that I was assuming you get 4 attacks over 10 rounds of combat - so a short rest every 10 rounds. I also made the point that it is dependent on rests and the DM, so I'm not sure if I have explained it poorly, or if you're asking something else...?
Bleh. Look, I'm out of time, basically (haha), and I like InquisitiveCoder's numbers and reasoning for a Brace / Riposte. I'm going with that...
...
Assuming 10 rounds of combat to use up 4 dice...
...
Note well that it is less if we're using several of the other BM options.
...
...it'll depend on how long your DM goes between rests, what sort of enemies you fight, and what your party's composition is.
It's a pretty optimal calculation, but then even nice easy Precision comes out with ~1dpr more damage.
Will you use all your dice? Will your efforts to use them all leave you without them in the fight you really need them? I mean, a BM who uses *no* dice is about as far behind a Champ (-2.6dpr) as the Champ is behind the BM who uses all-Riposte (-2.3dpr). Even if they save two of them for the really good fights, they're already pretty even in damage, with two dice in the tank to get ahead when it matters. And of course it's just level 7 when they get another dice and pull a bit further ahead.
Long story short, *both are pretty similar* in damage output. There's nothing wrong with a Crusher Champ, even if you're optimising, while the folk who say a BM can do more damage are right too. A BM will almost certainly do more damage over time.
What would have me more tending towards the Champ (assuming you get your interesting / fun bits from roleplaying and clever stuff, rather than your abilities) is simply that a Champ can always focus on the most appropriate targets - they are all-in, all-day. They're not worrying about over-spending dice, they're not waiting for the important target to miss to trigger Riposte, or delaying a charge to trigger Brace, or messing up an AOO because they burned their reaction. A perfect BM does get more damage in, no doubt, and even a mediocre one is at least going to match it, with some more utility in there too. But a Champ is consistently able to fight where and when it wants and do - at the very least! - comparable damage.
They're both fine. I like Champ better. If you like BM better, go for it.
Everyone is the winner.
---
please note that I was really sick when I wrote the post, and pretty sick now. Why is it 4 attacks a round? I do not even remember. It is possible that I am a bit delirious.
Champion can be good, but has very little control over the fight. Champion can do good damage regularly and great damage at times. But the crits may come on trash mobs, that you didn't need a crit to kill and abandon you on the main boss fight. This is the problem with the champion fighter, the lack of control over the fight. Many classes or even fighter subclasses, have better control of the fight. Battle master has maneuvers. Paladins can smite. Many classes and subclasses can choose to do something that adds to their damage, on demand, when they really need it. Champion just gets to roll the dice and pray. The lack of a natural ability to auto create advantage really hurts them.
It's not bad, it's just boring. "Oh look I hit him a bit harder than you did" seriously lacks the fun factor after you have said it 10 times in a session. Now a teleporting wild magic halfling barbarian with a halberd on the other hand...
It's not bad, it's just boring. "Oh look I hit him a bit harder than you did" seriously lacks the fun factor after you have said it 10 times in a session. Now a teleporting wild magic halfling barbarian with a halberd on the other hand...
Crusher helps champ for sure but what's stopping the BM from picking it up a well?
Overall the control aspect is a big one .... You don't get to decide when you are good the die do and that for me is the main reason why I don't like the subclass.
To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn, so the insinuation that “you don’t choose” means “it won’t happen” is very misleading. A champion is “good” more turns per day than the BM is, even if arguably the BM is “better” on those individual turns they pop their business.
Here is a Level 5 Comparison (again, without BM Maneuvers included, so you can compare on your own):
2 Attacks per round, 3 Prof Bonus, 16 AC target, Str +4
DIfference of 0.71 DPR.
Difference of 1.39 DPR
Difference of 2.69 DPR
In my next iteration I'll include Precision attack, which is likely the most powerful BM Maneuvers, and will probably provide a decent breakeven comparison without getting into the weeds too much in Maneuvers.
Yes, if you assume the battle master never uses any superiority dice, the champion has higher dpr. What is that supposed to prove? The simple case is "We will ignore conditions", not "we will completely ignore superiority dice".
Not sure you read Brewsky's first and last lines...?
I have a lot of questions.According to him it's Level 5, 2 Attacks per round, 3 Prof Bonus, 16 AC target, Str +4
First, where did he copy and paste that from?
If it's level 5, why is it showing 4 attacks?
What is the "adjusted" damage and why is it going up with each subsequent attack?
Starting at the very top, the math on the "first attack" checks out. But NO damage was added to the Battle Master. It's just showing base Fighter damage with no Combat Superiority dice damage added. Yet, it's labeled, "BATTLEMASTER WITH FLAIL/CRUSHER" Why?
Also, worth noting-- If all things equal damage-wise, that would make the Battle Master FAR superior to the Champion. ALL the Champion is brings to the table is extra damage from crits. The Battle Master is bringing so much more than just extra damage. And I'm not convinced the Champion measures up, even in JUST the damage department.
Edit: I think I figured out the "adjusted" damage, it's probably factoring in crusher. If you score a crit, the next attacks are with advantage. Still, adding a 3rd and 4th attack and then showing the totals after saying it's "Level 5, 2 attacks" - is not providing the actual numbers.
So, simplified math: assuming 70% hit probability, which is fairly average, and 2d6+4 damage, an unsubclassed fighter averages 8.1 damage per normal attack, a champion averages 8.45. On an attack with advantage, the vanilla fighter averages 10.69, the champion averages 11.34. This means the unsubclassed fighter gets +2.59 dpa, the champion gets +2.89.
Thus, without crusher feat, the vanilla fighter is averaging 16.2 dpr, the champion is averaging 16.9. So, let's consider the effect of Crusher.
First of all, crusher is pretty unappealing (it becomes better with allies; if you assume you have a second fighter, the value for the champion is a 19% chance the ally has advantage on two attacks, or 0.98 dpr for an unsubclassed fighter; casters usually benefit less). I doubt a build that isn't designed for crit fishing would take it in the first place. That said, with some party compositions the advantage for the champion could approach 2 dpr.
To do a proper comparison against a battle master, we have to decide how frequently we can spend superiority dice and what superiority dice are worth. I'll assume 10 rounds combat per short rest. If you use Precision Strike on an attack that misses by 1-4, it's worth around 10 damage, or 19 damage with great weapon mastery. This is commonly the best option, though Brace and Riposte can be competitive, and with certain team compositions Commander's Strike and Trip Attack can be competitive. You have a 40% chance per round of getting a chance to use Precision Strike, so it adds +4 dpr for the first 10 rounds.
Brewsky, I think it'd help a lot if you just posted your results as formula rather than a table. It'd be a lot easier to figure out where the numbers are coming from, and the way the tables are formatted in your posts makes them absolutely massive.
I'm curious how you're working out that "worth around 10 damage". If you're doing 2d6(reroll 1-2) + 4, that's worth 12.33, but you're also only getting the benefit 5/8 times (rolling a 1-3 on the d8 will still miss). That works out 7.7.
However, an opportunity to Brace or Riposte would be worth more since you're getting the 1d8 on top of your normal damage. At 70% hit rate (no advantage) that's an extra 0.7(8.33 + 4 + 4.5) + 0.05(8.33 + 4.5) = 12.42. It's pretty easy to set either one up if the enemy has a low hit rate/low single attack damage; you just have to leave their reach and either riposte their missed opportunity attack or brace their approach. You can make this even safer by using Trip Attack first to mess up their opportunity attack.
There's also Quick Toss, which lets you make a bonus action ranged attack with superiority dice damage as long as you have a hand free and a throwable weapon handy. The gains aren't as good (you're probably throwing a 1d6 weapon instead of 2d6), but you can use it on the same round as Brace or Riposte if you need to deal damage in a hurry.
Also, if you roll a 20 that's a guaranteed 2d8 through any of Distracting Strike, Tripping Attack, etc. for an average of 9.
So even with just 10 rounds to work with and disregarding party members, it's easy for a Battle Master to squeeze extra damage out of a mix of different circumstances, and they can always use up any unused dice at the end of what they suspect to be their last encounter before a rest. More rounds would give the Champion more chances to roll 19s, but it also gives the Battle Master more rounds to roll 20s, more opportunities for Brace or Riposte, and lets them be more selective with Precision Attack (e.g. only using it when they missed by 1-2 to raise the success chance to 7/8).
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I still would like an explanation for why he provided a table that he claims is comparing Champion to Battle Master, but then omitted the Battle Master's superiority dice. Without those dice it's literally JUST a vanilla Fighter.
Furthermore, why he's showing the final totals for 4 attacks when the comparison is supposed to be level 5 with two attacks. I suspect he's plugging them into an online calculator that already has four attacks preset. But then you should remove the last two attacks, then calculate the total DPR with just 2 so you can share it in the thread.
I screwed up (I wasn't assuming great weapon fighting). If you use a die on a miss by 1-4, your chance of hitting (since you didn't necessarily miss by exactly 4) is 26/32, multiplied by 11, =8.94.
I would calculate by assuming you miss by 2.5, the average of 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Which works out to 1.5/8 or 6/32.
Ah, you're right. My calculations were for missing by exactly 4, but that's only 1/4 of the possible cases and the other 3/4 have better odds.
Worth keeping in mind when doing these comparisons that if advantage is introduced the opportunities for Precision Attack usually drop, but other maneuvers become more effective (more crits, higher chance to Trip Attack on the first attack, higher chance to hit with Brace/Riposte/Quick Toss.)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
His first line and last line provided that explanation.
I mean, you guys can argue with his numbers, and I sure aren't defending them (too lazy to check), but at least read what he wrote. This is the second time I've written this.
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***IGNORE ALL OF THIS UNTIL I CAN GET SOME SLEEP AND WORK OUT WHY ON EARTH I GAVE EVERYONE 4 ATTACKS A ROUND***
(In my defense, I am home sick with a migraine, can't quite see, and was puking every now and then. Hey, stats distract me from being miserable. I will re-do later, but definitely devalue Crusher in the below calcs).
Alright, I'll be less lazy. I think you guys are assuming AC14 while Brewsky is assuming AC16, but my own experience would be ~AC14.
2 Attacks per round, 3 Prof Bonus, 14 AC target, Str +4, Maul/Crusher/GWF
***I regret not doing this in excel, but by the time I regretted it, I was almost done. Sorry for the many little dropped rounding errors... It's close enough, bleh. Sorry if stuff is wrong, I am out of time.
The damage added for a crit (same for both) is just the dice, so 8.33. For a Champion that's a 10% chance, so 0.83 per attack, and for a Battle Master it's 5%, so 0.42. This is going to change thanks to Crusher, but it's fair to say that counting crits, before Crusher, not using any Sup Dice, we have a really simple equation:
With 4 attacks in a round:
So without Crusher, the Champ is ahead of an effectively unspecced fighter by 1.6 damage per round.
(Brewksy has a bonus attack up there - sorry, not played for ages, so ... I don't know where that's coming from. Please let me know).
Crusher, though, is obviously a big part of a Champ's shtick, since he has twice the chance to apply it each attack. So for attacks 2, 3 and 4, we look at the chance crusher was applied already. For the Champ, it'll go:
And for the BM it's:
Yes I am too lazy to apply decimals to the percentages.
(I'd like to take a moment to reflect on the fact that, extra attacks from Sup Dice aside, the Champ has about twice the chance of applying Crusher each turn, which is likely to contribute a lot of damage to the party over time. Sure, it'll often be wasted on something that died, but in a tough-enemy fight (e.g. boss battle) we could be looking at a very significant number of extra d20's given out by the Champ.
With Sup Dice giving +4 attacks over, say, the 10 turns of combat, the difference isn't quite as great, but still strongly in the Champ's favour).
Anyway, the damage bonus for having Crusher is a greater chance to hit (91%), and a greater chance to crit (going up to 19% for the Champ, 10% for the BM).
That gives us average advantage damage per attack (without crits) of 0.91 (chance to hit) x 12.33 damage (rerolling 1 or 2) = 11.22.
...and with bonus crit damage: for a Champion that's a 19% chance, so 1.58 per attack, and for a Battle Master it's 10%, so 0.83 Still not using any Sup Dice, we get average damage per attack with advantage:
We can only count the extra damage our dude was going to be doing anyway (simple average way up above). So the EXTRA damage due to Crusher is:
Putting those back into the Crusher table up above, we get the extra damage per attack from advantage applied by the Fighter's own crusher:
And for the BM it's:
So the extra damage per round, due to crusher:
So over a round, we have a difference in damage **before we count Sup Dice**: the Champ out damages the BM by 1.6 (before Crusher) + 1 (extra due to Crusher) = 2.6.
With Crusher, our Champ out-damages an effectively unspecced warrior by 2.6dpr.
So now let's add Sup Dice.
This is complicated! But also simple...?
Look, you could use Riposte only when you have Crusher active, or when you have advantage. But then, the kind of enemy you're riposting might not be optimal, or you might need your reaction for AOO, or you might end up not using your dice. Bleh. Look, I'm out of time, basically (haha), and I like InquisitiveCoder's numbers and reasoning for a Brace / Riposte. I'm going with that (with a caveat in a moment)!
Assuming 10 rounds of combat to use up 4 dice (and again, respecting IC's argument that if your DM gives you more, you also have a better chance to optimise these): we get 4 supp dice x 12.33 damage divided over 10 turns = 4.92dpr. Note well that it is less if we're using several of the other BM options.
Our BM out-damages Champ by about 2.3 dpr, or less if you use less damaging BM options.
(Edit, sorry, just skimming, but the more reliably-applied-to-the-right-target /non-reaction-using ability of Precision, going on the numbers above, gives a 10-turn average (8.94 damage x 4 dice divided by 10 turns) of only +3.58dpr, or about 1dpr over the Champ).
Which brings the final decision down to a couple of simple factors:
And it's the last question that matters, I think. I don't think there's a good answer, and it'll depend on how long your DM goes between rests, what sort of enemies you fight, and what your party's composition is. I think the advantage is to the BM, pretty clearly, but it's not so overwhelming that you couldn't justify a Champ.
The take-aways for me are:
Having said all of that: the Champ has an advantage in that whenever you crit everyone cheers. Cheering is fun.
TLDR: play what you like playing.
Smelly, why do you think he meant 14 AC? The math checks out for 16 AC as he specified.
Also, how did you factor in the extra damage from superiority dice? The damage per attack is directly affected by how often you use them, which is affected by how many short rests you get, how long combats last, and which ones you use.
If you don't include the damage added by BM, but do include them for Champion, how is that apples to apples? Why not just label it "Fighter with no subclass"? Because that's the numbers you included. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you just have a strange way of thinking.
I thought I explained AC14...? That's what folk above were using (70% chance to hit = 14 AC) and in my experience is more realistic for level 5 folk. Feel free to re-calculate for AC16 though.
I also thought I explained how I calculated the extra damage? It's from IC's calcs above. I stated that I was assuming you get 4 attacks over 10 rounds of combat - so a short rest every 10 rounds. I also made the point that it is dependent on rests and the DM, so I'm not sure if I have explained it poorly, or if you're asking something else...?
It's a pretty optimal calculation, but then even nice easy Precision comes out with ~1dpr more damage.
Will you use all your dice? Will your efforts to use them all leave you without them in the fight you really need them? I mean, a BM who uses *no* dice is about as far behind a Champ (-2.6dpr) as the Champ is behind the BM who uses all-Riposte (-2.3dpr). Even if they save two of them for the really good fights, they're already pretty even in damage, with two dice in the tank to get ahead when it matters. And of course it's just level 7 when they get another dice and pull a bit further ahead.
Long story short, *both are pretty similar* in damage output. There's nothing wrong with a Crusher Champ, even if you're optimising, while the folk who say a BM can do more damage are right too. A BM will almost certainly do more damage over time.
What would have me more tending towards the Champ (assuming you get your interesting / fun bits from roleplaying and clever stuff, rather than your abilities) is simply that a Champ can always focus on the most appropriate targets - they are all-in, all-day. They're not worrying about over-spending dice, they're not waiting for the important target to miss to trigger Riposte, or delaying a charge to trigger Brace, or messing up an AOO because they burned their reaction. A perfect BM does get more damage in, no doubt, and even a mediocre one is at least going to match it, with some more utility in there too. But a Champ is consistently able to fight where and when it wants and do - at the very least! - comparable damage.
They're both fine. I like Champ better. If you like BM better, go for it.
Everyone is the winner.
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please note that I was really sick when I wrote the post, and pretty sick now. Why is it 4 attacks a round? I do not even remember. It is possible that I am a bit delirious.
Champion can be good, but has very little control over the fight. Champion can do good damage regularly and great damage at times. But the crits may come on trash mobs, that you didn't need a crit to kill and abandon you on the main boss fight. This is the problem with the champion fighter, the lack of control over the fight. Many classes or even fighter subclasses, have better control of the fight. Battle master has maneuvers. Paladins can smite. Many classes and subclasses can choose to do something that adds to their damage, on demand, when they really need it. Champion just gets to roll the dice and pray. The lack of a natural ability to auto create advantage really hurts them.
It's not bad, it's just boring. "Oh look I hit him a bit harder than you did" seriously lacks the fun factor after you have said it 10 times in a session. Now a teleporting wild magic halfling barbarian with a halberd on the other hand...
It's not bad, it's just boring. "Oh look I hit him a bit harder than you did" seriously lacks the fun factor after you have said it 10 times in a session. Now a teleporting wild magic halfling barbarian with a halberd on the other hand...
Crusher helps champ for sure but what's stopping the BM from picking it up a well?
Overall the control aspect is a big one .... You don't get to decide when you are good the die do and that for me is the main reason why I don't like the subclass.
To be clear though, a properly built champion is “good” (crits) at least once per turn, every turn, so the insinuation that “you don’t choose” means “it won’t happen” is very misleading. A champion is “good” more turns per day than the BM is, even if arguably the BM is “better” on those individual turns they pop their business.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.