If the feature allows you to automatically hit twice as often as the normal person, that is an increased chance to hit. At level 3, if a character has a +5 to hit and their enemy has an AC of 25 (unlikely, but not impossible), if they're not a Champion, they're going to miss. However, the Champion would hit. That's an increased hit chance.
Yes, it won't come up often, but it will come up sometimes.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Sounds like it’d be easy to use the sheet to test it yourself instead of making unfounded claims?
You could just double your own numbers. Even in the rigged case of a level 11 TWF Champion against a Dueling Battle Master, you calculated 15 rounds, which means it can take up to 30 if the BM is spending dice on crits. That's like 6 fights.
I did the math for the greatsword case 3 pages ago so I'm not sure where you're getting this "unfounded claims" thing from:
With a greatsword dealing an extra 2d6 per crit, that's 2.57 extra crits, which is about 51d20 rolls. That's a lot of d20s to roll in probably only 3 or 4 fights at best before the party likely has to rest unless the DM absolutely forces them not to. And remember that target is going to get bigger as the Battle Master gets more and larger dice. By 7th level they need extra 3.21 crits or ~64d20 rolls. By 10th level they need 3.92 extra crits or ~79d20.
Of course, you'd divide those d20s by 2 after 5th level or 3 after 11th level to get the number of rounds, but the numbers are still awful. You really want the Champion break even in 10 or at worst 15 rounds to have a chance of passing a Battle Master before the party decides they need a short rest.
I've also done the math for a half-orc Barbarian 9/Fighter 3 crit damage build in another thread and the Champion version of the build needed to attack 29 times to break even with the Battle Master version of the build that's spending dice on crits. That's with both Savage Attacks and Brutal Critical adding to the crit damage.
With no way of giving yourself advantage built into the subclass and only a 1 in 20 chance of Improved Critical doing anything for you it just takes too long to see a difference.
but the thing is, is that having an extra chance of getting a crit, also increases you chance of even getting a hit, and so your numbers are off.
additionally, it can, as you said, be combined with half orc or GWM for even more extra damage
i personally think its very boring, and not as powerful as many other fighter sub classes, but also not the weakest, not trash, and not useless.
That's a valid point and I addressed it when someone brought it up earlier. And situation where a natural 19 misses is so rare, that's a negligible factor. And it's the only time it would matter.
Half-orc will certainlly add damage, the same with flame tongue. And the Barbarian ability that adds crit damage. But the numbers are still not all that great. I think the best addition so far are the new feats, that if you crit the target gets disadvantage for a round. At least it's doing something at that point. When all a subclass ability does is add damage, it should add a lot more.
Also, a flagship subclass ability should not be dependent on special builds (feats, race, weapons, etc). They should be effective all on their own.
For reference to anyone else that says “0.35 bad”, here’s why it’s more nuanced than you think.
Champions get Improved Crit at level 3. At level 3, your Attack Bonus might be +5 if you’re lucky. And you might be wielding a rapier (1d8)+3 for ability modifier.
Total damage vs an AC 16 opponent:
Non-Champion = 10/20 chances hit. Average damage per hit is 7.5, or 12 on a crit. That’s ((7.5*9)+(12))/20 = 3.975 damage Ave.
Champion = ((7.5*8)+(12*2))/20 = 4.2 damage Ave.
That 0.35 represents an increase in output of 8.8% over normal damage output. The problem with most armchair experts is that they compare 0.35 (which is a hit-adjusted number) to an average damage of 7.5 (which is not hit-adjusted).
Throw in a feat that combines with critical hits like Greater Weapon Master and Piercer, or Vicious weapons, etc and this effect becomes more pronounced.
3.5 is for a greatsword. Why would you compare a the added damage from Champion carrying a 2d6 weapon, then compare that to non-Champion using a 1d8 weapon? Also your numbers are incomplete.
1d8 weapon averages 4.5 damage.
We'll use your 50% chance to hit.
Average Crit damage ÷ 20 = 0.225
__________
Normal Damage
(4.5 + 3 STR mod) = 7.5
50% chance to hit: 7.5 ÷ 2 = 3.75
Plus crit damage: 3.75 + 0.225 = 3.975
Normal Average Damage Per Swing = 3.975
Improved Critical Damage:
3.975 + 0.225 = 4.2
0.225 ÷ 3.975 = .0566
Improved Critical Adds 5.66% Damage
AND, it gets worse when more of your attacks are hitting and as non-dice bonuses increase.
Did you just get corrected by an "armchair expert"? Ouch!
but the thing is, is that having an extra chance of getting a crit, also increases you chance of even getting a hit, and so your numbers are off.
additionally, it can, as you said, be combined with half orc or GWM for even more extra damage
i personally think its very boring, and not as powerful as many other fighter sub classes, but also not the weakest, not trash, and not useless.
How does an increased crit chance increase your chance of a hit? The non-champion Fighter who rolls a 19 is still going to hit. Critting doesn't effect chance to hit.
He's technically correct, but it only matters IF you fight something that a natural 19 on the die won't hit.
UNLESS the rules as written specify only a natural 20 hits, instead of a crit. I had not thought of that until now. I'll have to look that one up.
If the feature allows you to automatically hit twice as often as the normal person, that is an increased chance to hit. At level 3, if a character has a +5 to hit and their enemy has an AC of 25 (unlikely, but not impossible), if they're not a Champion, they're going to miss. However, the Champion would hit. That's an increased hit chance.
Yes, it won't come up often, but it will come up sometimes.
Can you give an example of when that would ever come up?
Edit: there is no example. By the time any creature with armor above 19 appears in any printed material, any fighter would have enough of a +to hit bonus to still hit on a 19. Their armor would have to be stupidly high, like 30. Even the Terasque isn't that broken. This would only be for extreme homebrew situations that it could come up.
And other subclasses have ways to get better hit chances via chasing advantage.
That 0.35 represents an increase in output of 8.8% over normal damage output. The problem with most armchair experts is that they compare 0.35 (which is a hit-adjusted number) to an average damage of 7.5 (which is not hit-adjusted).
The problem is that we compare it to options that are straight up better.
Over two medium encounters (expected average between short rests) at level 3 you can figure on 6 normal Attack actions, 1 Attack action from action surge, maybe 2 Opportunity attacks, total 9. For the champion at level 3, the expected gain is 0.45 critical hits (0.75 with 2WF), worth 2.025 damage with d8 weapons, 2.375 damage with 2x 1d6 weapons, 3.75 damage with a greatsword and great weapon fighting. In the same time, the battle master will use up 4 superiority dice, either for bonus damage (always hits) or possibly for bonus attacks such as riposte (can miss, but does a lot more damage if it does hit). This is worth at least 18 damage.
Now, it happens that the Champion does scale better than the Battle Master. At level 20 in the same time frame you can figure on 34 attacks (4 per attack action, and getting 2x action surge) which will give 3.4 extra critical hits, and you might well have abilities that increase the potency of your critical hits. This has a reasonable chance of scaling favorably relative to 6d12. However, most games never reach level 20, let alone spending long periods at those levels, so I generally pay more attention to tier 1/2 balance.
Interesting. It specifies that a natural 20 automatically hits, and explains, "this is called a critical hit." But it does not explicitly a say crit from a lower number automatically hits. I'm sure this has been addressed and answered.
Rolling 1 or 20
Sometimes fate blesses or curses a combatant, causing the novice to hit and the veteran to miss.
If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this section.
Critical Hits
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
That 0.35 represents an increase in output of 8.8% over normal damage output. The problem with most armchair experts is that they compare 0.35 (which is a hit-adjusted number) to an average damage of 7.5 (which is not hit-adjusted).
The problem is that we compare it to options that are straight up better.
Over two medium encounters (expected average between short rests) at level 3 you can figure on 6 normal Attack actions, 1 Attack action from action surge, maybe 2 Opportunity attacks, total 9. For the champion at level 3, the expected gain is 0.45 critical hits (0.75 with 2WF), worth 2.025 damage with d8 weapons, 2.375 damage with 2x 1d6 weapons, 3.75 damage with a greatsword and great weapon fighting. In the same time, the battle master will use up 4 superiority dice, either for bonus damage (always hits) or possibly for bonus attacks such as riposte (can miss, but does a lot more damage if it does hit). This is worth at least 18 damage.
Now, it happens that the Champion does scale better than the Battle Master. At level 20 in the same time frame you can figure on 34 attacks (4 per attack action, and getting 2x action surge) which will give 3.4 extra critical hits, and you might well have abilities that increase the potency of your critical hits. This has a reasonable chance of scaling favorably relative to 6d12. However, most games never reach level 20, let alone spending long periods at those levels, so I generally pay more attention to tier 1/2 balance.
It doesn't even matter because his numbers are just plain wrong, as I explained earlier:
"3.5 is for a greatsword. Why would you compare a the added damage from Champion carrying a 2d6 weapon, then compare that to non-Champion using a 1d8 weapon? Also your numbers are incomplete.
Interesting. It specifies that a natural 20 automatically hits, and explains, "this is called a critical hit." But it does not explicitly a say crit from a lower number automatically hits. I'm sure this has been addressed and answered.
Improved Critical Hit says you score a critical hit on a roll of 19. That's by definition a hit, and the outcome is hard-coded to the die roll. So it's true Improved Critical Hit can theoretically improve your hit rate. But it's also true that you're probably not going to be fighting something that you'd only ever hit on a 20. There's basically no monsters in the Monster Manual below CR 20 that have more than 20 AC, and even a level 1 Fighter should have at least a +2 attack bonus. That still lets you hit on an 18.
That 0.35 represents an increase in output of 8.8% over normal damage output. The problem with most armchair experts is that they compare 0.35 (which is a hit-adjusted number) to an average damage of 7.5 (which is not hit-adjusted).
The problem is that we compare it to options that are straight up better.
Over two medium encounters (expected average between short rests) at level 3 you can figure on 6 normal Attack actions, 1 Attack action from action surge, maybe 2 Opportunity attacks, total 9. For the champion at level 3, the expected gain is 0.45 critical hits (0.75 with 2WF), worth 2.025 damage with d8 weapons, 2.375 damage with 2x 1d6 weapons, 3.75 damage with a greatsword and great weapon fighting. In the same time, the battle master will use up 4 superiority dice, either for bonus damage (always hits) or possibly for bonus attacks such as riposte (can miss, but does a lot more damage if it does hit). This is worth at least 18 damage.
Now, it happens that the Champion does scale better than the Battle Master. At level 20 in the same time frame you can figure on 34 attacks (4 per attack action, and getting 2x action surge) which will give 3.4 extra critical hits, and you might well have abilities that increase the potency of your critical hits. This has a reasonable chance of scaling favorably relative to 6d12. However, most games never reach level 20, let alone spending long periods at those levels, so I generally pay more attention to tier 1/2 balance.
It doesn't even matter because his numbers are just plain wrong, as I explained earlier:
"3.5 is for a greatsword. Why would you compare a the added damage from Champion carrying a 2d6 weapon, then compare that to non-Champion using a 1d8 weapon? Also your numbers are incomplete.
1d8 weapon averages 4.5 damage.
We'll use your 50% chance to hit.
Average Crit damage ÷ 20 = 0.225
__________
Normal Damage
(4.5 + 3 STR mod) = 7.5
50% chance to hit: 7.5 ÷ 2 = 3.75
Plus crit damage: 3.75 + 0.225 = 3.975
Normal Average Damage Per Swing = 3.975
Improved Critical Damage:
3.975 + 0.225 = 4.2
0.225 ÷ 3.975 = .0566
Improved Critical Adds 5.66% Damage"
That's not how this works. Let's use a 3rd level archer, with a +3 ability mod and a longbow, for example. They have +7 to hit and deal 7.5 (1d8+3) damage, on average, per hit. Against a goblin with AC 15, they only need an 8 or better on the die to hit. The math looks something like this:
In the above example, champions deal 4.412% (5.325/5.1) more damage per bowshot. If the two are instead wielding a greatsword or maul, it's a 5.983% damage increase before applying the fighting style. (Because the Defense style is just as attractive.) And they're doing this without expending a resource.
Now, do you actually have a point to all this? Because, as you've mentioned before, this is a Tips & Tactics subforum. And you've been spending every effort since your initiating post to trash the martial archetype. Why? Are you trying to say people shouldn't play a champion? Because, if so, that's a clear violation of the rules.
That 0.35 represents an increase in output of 8.8% over normal damage output. The problem with most armchair experts is that they compare 0.35 (which is a hit-adjusted number) to an average damage of 7.5 (which is not hit-adjusted).
The problem is that we compare it to options that are straight up better.
Over two medium encounters (expected average between short rests) at level 3 you can figure on 6 normal Attack actions, 1 Attack action from action surge, maybe 2 Opportunity attacks, total 9. For the champion at level 3, the expected gain is 0.45 critical hits (0.75 with 2WF), worth 2.025 damage with d8 weapons, 2.375 damage with 2x 1d6 weapons, 3.75 damage with a greatsword and great weapon fighting. In the same time, the battle master will use up 4 superiority dice, either for bonus damage (always hits) or possibly for bonus attacks such as riposte (can miss, but does a lot more damage if it does hit). This is worth at least 18 damage.
Now, it happens that the Champion does scale better than the Battle Master. At level 20 in the same time frame you can figure on 34 attacks (4 per attack action, and getting 2x action surge) which will give 3.4 extra critical hits, and you might well have abilities that increase the potency of your critical hits. This has a reasonable chance of scaling favorably relative to 6d12. However, most games never reach level 20, let alone spending long periods at those levels, so I generally pay more attention to tier 1/2 balance.
It doesn't even matter because his numbers are just plain wrong, as I explained earlier:
"3.5 is for a greatsword. Why would you compare a the added damage from Champion carrying a 2d6 weapon, then compare that to non-Champion using a 1d8 weapon? Also your numbers are incomplete.
1d8 weapon averages 4.5 damage.
We'll use your 50% chance to hit.
Average Crit damage ÷ 20 = 0.225
__________
Normal Damage
(4.5 + 3 STR mod) = 7.5
50% chance to hit: 7.5 ÷ 2 = 3.75
Plus crit damage: 3.75 + 0.225 = 3.975
Normal Average Damage Per Swing = 3.975
Improved Critical Damage:
3.975 + 0.225 = 4.2
0.225 ÷ 3.975 = .0566
Improved Critical Adds 5.66% Damage"
That's not how this works. Let's use a 3rd level archer, with a +3 ability mod and a longbow, for example. They have +7 to hit and deal 7.5 (1d8+3) damage, on average, per hit. Against a goblin with AC 15, they only need an 8 or better on the die to hit. The math looks something like this:
In the above example, champions deal 4.412% (5.325/5.1) more damage per bowshot. If the two are instead wielding a greatsword or maul, it's a 5.983% damage increase before applying the fighting style. (Because the Defense style is just as attractive.) And they're doing this without expending a resource.
Now, do you actually have a point to all this? Because, as you've mentioned before, this is a Tips & Tactics subforum. And you've been spending every effort since your initiating post to trash the martial archetype. Why? Are you trying to say people shouldn't play a champion? Because, if so, that's a clear violation of the rules.
How are you going to say, "That's not how this works" and then show the damage for entirely different scenarios? This post originated from me correcting Brewsky's math. Is my math wrong? If so, show me.
For a 1d8 weapon, improved critical increases damage by 0.225 per attack. 1d10: 0.275 , 2d12: 0.035
The percentage increase depends on AC, proficiency bonus, damage bonuses, ASI bonuses, etc. The percentage lowers when your to-hit rolls are lower, and when your bonus damage goes up from things like ASI increases, +magic weapons, etc. It goes up if you add damage that involves dice. Even the numbers you provided are dismal. Just going by round numbers, a 5% increase of damage amounts to rolling for 21 damage instead of 20. That's the vaunted the Champion feature. A feature that does *nothing* but add damage.
Imagine how low the percentage is when you add things like Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter damage (if it's used correctly).
How does a 10% to 15% chance to get a quicker turn, and everything that can be done on that full turn, get reduced to a 3% damage boost? That doesn’t seem quite right.
How does a 10% to 15% chance to get a quicker turn, and everything that can be done on that full turn, get reduced to a 3% damage boost? That doesn’t seem quite right.
What are you talking about? (Improved Critical) Getting a 5% increase in your chance to crit on a 2d6 weapon amounts to an average increased damage per attack of 0.35. If you want to know how, I've posted an explanation and formula many times.
I must have replied to the wrong person, my apologies. I’m working on an iPhone and I have some clumsy thumbs.
my reference was to the indirect contribution to offense that the remarkable athlete makes to overall expected damage. Since it adds a 2 to initiative at level 7, and a +3 at level 13. All things being equal, a percentage of the time a champion will get to an extra turn, or potentially end combat earlier due to that bonus. Since it’s based on proficiency, it stays relevant regardless of if the fighter chooses to work with strength or dexterity.
10-15% of the time this should make an impact on the champions offense, as well as its defense as technically it synergizes with the high level healing feature too since it works off turn order.
How does a 10% to 15% chance to get a quicker turn, and everything that can be done on that full turn, get reduced to a 3% damage boost? That doesn’t seem quite right.
10% chance to get 4 actions instead of 3. 4 actions is a 33% damage increase (more like 30% because of action surge/etc), so 10% of that is 3%. It's about 5% at level 13+.
I must have replied to the wrong person, my apologies. I’m working on an iPhone and I have some clumsy thumbs.
my reference was to the indirect contribution to offense that the remarkable athlete makes to overall expected damage. Since it adds a 2 to initiative at level 7, and a +3 at level 13. All things being equal, a percentage of the time a champion will get to an extra turn, or potentially end combat earlier due to that bonus. Since it’s based on proficiency, it stays relevant regardless of if the fighter chooses to work with strength or dexterity.
10-15% of the time this should make an impact on the champions offense, as well as its defense as technically it synergizes with the high level healing feature too since it works off turn order.
Oh, I see. Yeah, getting a bonus to initiative is always helpful. It’s like going first in chess grants a slight advantage, but I think even more important.
That 0.35 represents an increase in output of 8.8% over normal damage output. The problem with most armchair experts is that they compare 0.35 (which is a hit-adjusted number) to an average damage of 7.5 (which is not hit-adjusted).
The problem is that we compare it to options that are straight up better.
Over two medium encounters (expected average between short rests) at level 3 you can figure on 6 normal Attack actions, 1 Attack action from action surge, maybe 2 Opportunity attacks, total 9. For the champion at level 3, the expected gain is 0.45 critical hits (0.75 with 2WF), worth 2.025 damage with d8 weapons, 2.375 damage with 2x 1d6 weapons, 3.75 damage with a greatsword and great weapon fighting. In the same time, the battle master will use up 4 superiority dice, either for bonus damage (always hits) or possibly for bonus attacks such as riposte (can miss, but does a lot more damage if it does hit). This is worth at least 18 damage.
Now, it happens that the Champion does scale better than the Battle Master. At level 20 in the same time frame you can figure on 34 attacks (4 per attack action, and getting 2x action surge) which will give 3.4 extra critical hits, and you might well have abilities that increase the potency of your critical hits. This has a reasonable chance of scaling favorably relative to 6d12. However, most games never reach level 20, let alone spending long periods at those levels, so I generally pay more attention to tier 1/2 balance.
It doesn't even matter because his numbers are just plain wrong, as I explained earlier:
"3.5 is for a greatsword. Why would you compare a the added damage from Champion carrying a 2d6 weapon, then compare that to non-Champion using a 1d8 weapon? Also your numbers are incomplete.
1d8 weapon averages 4.5 damage.
We'll use your 50% chance to hit.
Average Crit damage ÷ 20 = 0.225
__________
Normal Damage
(4.5 + 3 STR mod) = 7.5
50% chance to hit: 7.5 ÷ 2 = 3.75
Plus crit damage: 3.75 + 0.225 = 3.975
Normal Average Damage Per Swing = 3.975
Improved Critical Damage:
3.975 + 0.225 = 4.2
0.225 ÷ 3.975 = .0566
Improved Critical Adds 5.66% Damage"
That's not how this works. Let's use a 3rd level archer, with a +3 ability mod and a longbow, for example. They have +7 to hit and deal 7.5 (1d8+3) damage, on average, per hit. Against a goblin with AC 15, they only need an 8 or better on the die to hit. The math looks something like this:
In the above example, champions deal 4.412% (5.325/5.1) more damage per bowshot. If the two are instead wielding a greatsword or maul, it's a 5.983% damage increase before applying the fighting style. (Because the Defense style is just as attractive.) And they're doing this without expending a resource.
Now, do you actually have a point to all this? Because, as you've mentioned before, this is a Tips & Tactics subforum. And you've been spending every effort since your initiating post to trash the martial archetype. Why? Are you trying to say people shouldn't play a champion? Because, if so, that's a clear violation of the rules.
How are you going to say, "That's not how this works" and then show the damage for entirely different scenarios? This post originated from me correcting Brewsky's math. Is my math wrong? If so, show me.
For a 1d8 weapon, improved critical increases damage by 0.225 per attack. 1d10: 0.275 , 2d12: 0.035
The percentage increase depends on AC, proficiency bonus, damage bonuses, ASI bonuses, etc. The percentage lowers when your to-hit rolls are lower, and when your bonus damage goes up from things like ASI increases, +magic weapons, etc. It goes up if you add damage that involves dice. Even the numbers you provided are dismal. Just going by round numbers, a 5% increase of damage amounts to rolling for 21 damage instead of 20. That's the vaunted the Champion feature. A feature that does *nothing* but add damage.
Imagine how low the percentage is when you add things like Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter damage (if it's used correctly).
Because I'm giving equations for how to actually calculate the meaningful difference. As have others. You're not, which means your conclusions are arrived at incorrectly. Which means they cannot be trusted.
And you still haven't answered the all-important question as to why you started this toxic mess.
That 0.35 represents an increase in output of 8.8% over normal damage output. The problem with most armchair experts is that they compare 0.35 (which is a hit-adjusted number) to an average damage of 7.5 (which is not hit-adjusted).
The problem is that we compare it to options that are straight up better.
Over two medium encounters (expected average between short rests) at level 3 you can figure on 6 normal Attack actions, 1 Attack action from action surge, maybe 2 Opportunity attacks, total 9. For the champion at level 3, the expected gain is 0.45 critical hits (0.75 with 2WF), worth 2.025 damage with d8 weapons, 2.375 damage with 2x 1d6 weapons, 3.75 damage with a greatsword and great weapon fighting. In the same time, the battle master will use up 4 superiority dice, either for bonus damage (always hits) or possibly for bonus attacks such as riposte (can miss, but does a lot more damage if it does hit). This is worth at least 18 damage.
Now, it happens that the Champion does scale better than the Battle Master. At level 20 in the same time frame you can figure on 34 attacks (4 per attack action, and getting 2x action surge) which will give 3.4 extra critical hits, and you might well have abilities that increase the potency of your critical hits. This has a reasonable chance of scaling favorably relative to 6d12. However, most games never reach level 20, let alone spending long periods at those levels, so I generally pay more attention to tier 1/2 balance.
It doesn't even matter because his numbers are just plain wrong, as I explained earlier:
Which might be relevant if I were using someone else's numbers. Every number I used was explicitly stated in my post.
If the feature allows you to automatically hit twice as often as the normal person, that is an increased chance to hit. At level 3, if a character has a +5 to hit and their enemy has an AC of 25 (unlikely, but not impossible), if they're not a Champion, they're going to miss. However, the Champion would hit. That's an increased hit chance.
Yes, it won't come up often, but it will come up sometimes.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You could just double your own numbers. Even in the rigged case of a level 11 TWF Champion against a Dueling Battle Master, you calculated 15 rounds, which means it can take up to 30 if the BM is spending dice on crits. That's like 6 fights.
I did the math for the greatsword case 3 pages ago so I'm not sure where you're getting this "unfounded claims" thing from:
Of course, you'd divide those d20s by 2 after 5th level or 3 after 11th level to get the number of rounds, but the numbers are still awful. You really want the Champion break even in 10 or at worst 15 rounds to have a chance of passing a Battle Master before the party decides they need a short rest.
I've also done the math for a half-orc Barbarian 9/Fighter 3 crit damage build in another thread and the Champion version of the build needed to attack 29 times to break even with the Battle Master version of the build that's spending dice on crits. That's with both Savage Attacks and Brutal Critical adding to the crit damage.
With no way of giving yourself advantage built into the subclass and only a 1 in 20 chance of Improved Critical doing anything for you it just takes too long to see a difference.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
That's a valid point and I addressed it when someone brought it up earlier. And situation where a natural 19 misses is so rare, that's a negligible factor. And it's the only time it would matter.
Half-orc will certainlly add damage, the same with flame tongue. And the Barbarian ability that adds crit damage. But the numbers are still not all that great. I think the best addition so far are the new feats, that if you crit the target gets disadvantage for a round. At least it's doing something at that point. When all a subclass ability does is add damage, it should add a lot more.
Also, a flagship subclass ability should not be dependent on special builds (feats, race, weapons, etc). They should be effective all on their own.
He's technically correct, but it only matters IF you fight something that a natural 19 on the die won't hit.
UNLESS the rules as written specify only a natural 20 hits, instead of a crit. I had not thought of that until now. I'll have to look that one up.
It's on crits, not just natural 20's.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Can you give an example of when that would ever come up?
Edit: there is no example. By the time any creature with armor above 19 appears in any printed material, any fighter would have enough of a +to hit bonus to still hit on a 19. Their armor would have to be stupidly high, like 30. Even the Terasque isn't that broken. This would only be for extreme homebrew situations that it could come up.
And other subclasses have ways to get better hit chances via chasing advantage.
The problem is that we compare it to options that are straight up better.
Over two medium encounters (expected average between short rests) at level 3 you can figure on 6 normal Attack actions, 1 Attack action from action surge, maybe 2 Opportunity attacks, total 9. For the champion at level 3, the expected gain is 0.45 critical hits (0.75 with 2WF), worth 2.025 damage with d8 weapons, 2.375 damage with 2x 1d6 weapons, 3.75 damage with a greatsword and great weapon fighting. In the same time, the battle master will use up 4 superiority dice, either for bonus damage (always hits) or possibly for bonus attacks such as riposte (can miss, but does a lot more damage if it does hit). This is worth at least 18 damage.
Now, it happens that the Champion does scale better than the Battle Master. At level 20 in the same time frame you can figure on 34 attacks (4 per attack action, and getting 2x action surge) which will give 3.4 extra critical hits, and you might well have abilities that increase the potency of your critical hits. This has a reasonable chance of scaling favorably relative to 6d12. However, most games never reach level 20, let alone spending long periods at those levels, so I generally pay more attention to tier 1/2 balance.
Interesting. It specifies that a natural 20 automatically hits, and explains, "this is called a critical hit." But it does not explicitly a say crit from a lower number automatically hits. I'm sure this has been addressed and answered.
Rolling 1 or 20
Sometimes fate blesses or curses a combatant, causing the novice to hit and the veteran to miss.
If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this section.
Critical Hits
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
It doesn't even matter because his numbers are just plain wrong, as I explained earlier:
"3.5 is for a greatsword. Why would you compare a the added damage from Champion carrying a 2d6 weapon, then compare that to non-Champion using a 1d8 weapon? Also your numbers are incomplete.
1d8 weapon averages 4.5 damage.
We'll use your 50% chance to hit.
Average Crit damage ÷ 20 = 0.225
__________
Normal Damage
(4.5 + 3 STR mod) = 7.5
50% chance to hit: 7.5 ÷ 2 = 3.75
Plus crit damage: 3.75 + 0.225 = 3.975
Normal Average Damage Per Swing = 3.975
Improved Critical Damage:
3.975 + 0.225 = 4.2
0.225 ÷ 3.975 = .0566
Improved Critical Adds 5.66% Damage"
Improved Critical Hit says you score a critical hit on a roll of 19. That's by definition a hit, and the outcome is hard-coded to the die roll. So it's true Improved Critical Hit can theoretically improve your hit rate. But it's also true that you're probably not going to be fighting something that you'd only ever hit on a 20. There's basically no monsters in the Monster Manual below CR 20 that have more than 20 AC, and even a level 1 Fighter should have at least a +2 attack bonus. That still lets you hit on an 18.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
That's not how this works. Let's use a 3rd level archer, with a +3 ability mod and a longbow, for example. They have +7 to hit and deal 7.5 (1d8+3) damage, on average, per hit. Against a goblin with AC 15, they only need an 8 or better on the die to hit. The math looks something like this:
Champion: ((7.5*11)+(12*2))/20=5.325 damage/bowshot
Everyone Else: ((7.5*12)+12)/20=5.1 damage/bowshot
In the above example, champions deal 4.412% (5.325/5.1) more damage per bowshot. If the two are instead wielding a greatsword or maul, it's a 5.983% damage increase before applying the fighting style. (Because the Defense style is just as attractive.) And they're doing this without expending a resource.
Now, do you actually have a point to all this? Because, as you've mentioned before, this is a Tips & Tactics subforum. And you've been spending every effort since your initiating post to trash the martial archetype. Why? Are you trying to say people shouldn't play a champion? Because, if so, that's a clear violation of the rules.
How are you going to say, "That's not how this works" and then show the damage for entirely different scenarios? This post originated from me correcting Brewsky's math. Is my math wrong? If so, show me.
For a 1d8 weapon, improved critical increases damage by 0.225 per attack. 1d10: 0.275 , 2d12: 0.035
The percentage increase depends on AC, proficiency bonus, damage bonuses, ASI bonuses, etc. The percentage lowers when your to-hit rolls are lower, and when your bonus damage goes up from things like ASI increases, +magic weapons, etc. It goes up if you add damage that involves dice. Even the numbers you provided are dismal. Just going by round numbers, a 5% increase of damage amounts to rolling for 21 damage instead of 20. That's the vaunted the Champion feature. A feature that does *nothing* but add damage.
Imagine how low the percentage is when you add things like Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter damage (if it's used correctly).
How does a 10% to 15% chance to get a quicker turn, and everything that can be done on that full turn, get reduced to a 3% damage boost? That doesn’t seem quite right.
What are you talking about? (Improved Critical) Getting a 5% increase in your chance to crit on a 2d6 weapon amounts to an average increased damage per attack of 0.35. If you want to know how, I've posted an explanation and formula many times.
I must have replied to the wrong person, my apologies. I’m working on an iPhone and I have some clumsy thumbs.
my reference was to the indirect contribution to offense that the remarkable athlete makes to overall expected damage. Since it adds a 2 to initiative at level 7, and a +3 at level 13. All things being equal, a percentage of the time a champion will get to an extra turn, or potentially end combat earlier due to that bonus. Since it’s based on proficiency, it stays relevant regardless of if the fighter chooses to work with strength or dexterity.
10-15% of the time this should make an impact on the champions offense, as well as its defense as technically it synergizes with the high level healing feature too since it works off turn order.
10% chance to get 4 actions instead of 3. 4 actions is a 33% damage increase (more like 30% because of action surge/etc), so 10% of that is 3%. It's about 5% at level 13+.
Oh, I see. Yeah, getting a bonus to initiative is always helpful. It’s like going first in chess grants a slight advantage, but I think even more important.
Because I'm giving equations for how to actually calculate the meaningful difference. As have others. You're not, which means your conclusions are arrived at incorrectly. Which means they cannot be trusted.
And you still haven't answered the all-important question as to why you started this toxic mess.
Which might be relevant if I were using someone else's numbers. Every number I used was explicitly stated in my post.
Ohh. That makes a lot of sense now, thank you.
you guys started talking about how tashas indirectly buffed the champion with the new fighting styles?