I really love Lineages, but I truly believe they should become their own system that compliments a players existing race. Otherwise, it causes problems when it comes to character creation.
For example; If I am playing an Aarakocra Dhampir, By RAW, I lose my flight ability as well as my Talons. This makes no sense considering I still have those wings. It's integral to the race I am playing and is part of them. It isn't stated anywhere in lore or in the lineage itself that I lose those wings or they become damaged in any way. So now we run into the issue where I have healthy wings, but can't use them.
This creates a conflict between Player and DM where both sides must justify either or side. Instead of making this an easy and seamless process, it becomes something that is potentially burdensome for both player and DM.
The reason I bring this up is because we should clearly define what traits are kept from the original race and what are potentially lost. Perhaps what negatives are gained to balance the player as a whole. Personally I suggest having the option to choose from multiple Flaws and Weaknesses.
If things are clearly defined, it helps with any conflict at character creation and help avoid the need to win a debate as well as make logical sense. A Tortle should keep his shell, it only makes sense logically. :)
To help explain my point more, here's a quick summary:
- By RAW, Races lose a lot of their former racial traits when they adopt their lineage. Problem is, some of these traits are integral to the race itself. Aarakocra losing their ability to fly being the easiest example. An Aarakocra doesn't suddenly lose their wings when they become a Dhampir, Hexblood or Reborn. It isn't stated that happens in any form. [Players may choose to have that flaw, but that's a personal decision to develop the character]
- Even more: Tritons lose their ability to breathe water and swim speed, Tortles lose their shell, Dragonborn lose their Breath Attack. The list goes on and the problem becomes more clear once you sit down and think in terms of Lore and Logic.
- Making Lineages an Addon to existing races solves this conflict as well as making it easier to add (Or potentially remove) to an existing character mid-campaign. The idea that one can be cured of their Undeath is very interesting. Making this an Addon makes it seamless.
- There should be a list of flaws that also should be added or that you can choose from. (Which I think could be fun)
- Making it a separate Framework helps set up the possibility of NEW Lineages. Maybe finding a Powerful Elemental might infuse you with Fire like a Genasi.
- This can be Marketed and make money for D&D. Being a "Fire Goliath" for example would have a lot of appeal to a lot of different players. [Gain resistance to fire, possible weakness to Cold for example] This is just one example; I see plenty of people mixing and matching different Lineage Addon's with different races to make fun and unique characters.
- This now adds new potential for campaigns. Players can change accordingly as the campaign goes on and the setting allows it. Visiting the Plane of Fire might give you opportunities to be infused with said power. Visiting a Vampire might give you the ability to become a Dhampir or Vampire themselves.
This has been suggested approximately two hundred thousand times since the Gothic Lineages UA dropped. Literally everyone points to either aarakocra or tortles as the reason why, despite both of those species being vanishingly rare as actual PCs.
The general counterthought is that forcing the Gothic lineages to be add-on templates means that either a DM has to allow players to add a bunch of free superpowers to their character with no drawbacks or penalties whatsoever, or the lineage templates have to effectively be a zero-sum thing with huge and egregious drawbacks to balance their strengths. Except that doesn't actually work - RPG players have a rich, storied history of finding ways to squirm out from under 'Balancing Drawbacks' and enjoy the benefits of a powerful option anyways.
Species like elves are super overloaded as it is - making an elven dhampir that has all the benefits of being an elf and all the benefits of being a dhampir just strikes me as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. A DM can provisionally approve the retention of specific pre-dhampir traits, but these lineages are supposed to be selected at character creation in lieu of selecting a traditional species. A DM who chooses to allow a player to go swapsies in mid-campaign is going to have to heavily adjudicate things regardless.
Heh. It has also just occurred to me that absolutely nobody has these problems when discussing the Reincarnation spell, which forcibly changes a character's species (most of the time, anyways). The PC loses all its old traits, including 'knowledge' things like Elf Weapon Training or species-based skill proficiencies, and gains the shit from its new species, and nobody has ever cared. Wonder why that is?
This has been suggested approximately two hundred thousand times since the Gothic Lineages UA dropped. Literally everyone points to either aarakocra or tortles as the reason why, despite both of those species being vanishingly rare as actual PCs.
The general counterthought is that forcing the Gothic lineages to be add-on templates means that either a DM has to allow players to add a bunch of free superpowers to their character with no drawbacks or penalties whatsoever, or the lineage templates have to effectively be a zero-sum thing with huge and egregious drawbacks to balance their strengths. Except that doesn't actually work - RPG players have a rich, storied history of finding ways to squirm out from under 'Balancing Drawbacks' and enjoy the benefits of a powerful option anyways.
Species like elves are super overloaded as it is - making an elven dhampir that has all the benefits of being an elf and all the benefits of being a dhampir just strikes me as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. A DM can provisionally approve the retention of specific pre-dhampir traits, but these lineages are supposed to be selected at character creation in lieu of selecting a traditional species. A DM who chooses to allow a player to go swapsies in mid-campaign is going to have to heavily adjudicate things regardless.
Heh. It has also just occurred to me that absolutely nobody has these problems when discussing the Reincarnation spell, which forcibly changes a character's species (most of the time, anyways). The PC loses all its old traits, including 'knowledge' things like Elf Weapon Training or species-based skill proficiencies, and gains the shit from its new species, and nobody has ever cared. Wonder why that is?
I honestly haven't had anyone use the Reincarnate spell without the DM pushing it as their only option. To be fair, it is very rare to not have a Cleric of some kind in any of the games I am in. I have seen it used once to "fix" a character because the player decided that they would rather play a different race, but the Player and DM agreed ahead of time on the results.
My issue with the lineages replacing all previous racial abilities is more to do with the ability to turn into one of these lineages mid campaign. It really doesn't make much sense to me that a supernatural gift suddenly makes me lose everything I had before, especially ones who's changes aren't that drastic. If my character spent their life learning how to survive out in the wilderness (proficiency to Survival), or studying to use a particular weapon (Weapon Training), or mastering a cantrip (Innate Magic), and so on and so on......why does suddenly being turned into a Dhampir make me lose all that? It isn't just Aarakocra flight or Tortle shells, none of the lineages give the players the ability to retain any of the proficiency and abilities of their racial/cultural upbringings that logically make sense to transition over to the new lineage classification.
This is why I feel there needs to be a bigger overhaul of how racial, cultural, and personal upbringing/background traits are classified and chosen at character creation. Especially if you are trying to make the old races and the new lineages work together coherently. It's why I actually wouldn't mind if they went back and broke up the older races into racial and cultural features and they made a separate system for cultural/learned options, and a better way to explain how changing lineages (like to a Dhampir) affects the biology of the character. As it stands right now, the lineages are a clucky mess mechanically if applied in the current manner, at least that is my opinion of them.
In the end this doesn't kill my love of D&D in the slightest. If WotC really thinks this is the best way to handle races/lineages going forward then that's alright with me. I don't mind changing things for my own games and I'm happy others really like this new Character Creation method. I just personally think more can be done to make it that much better.
You're saying that I want all of this to be free additions to make characters OP, which is simply not the case. I do say that there should be negatives in place for each of these lineages. Whether a weakness to silver, sunlight, or maybe a choice of weaknesses.
Reincarnation is a different spell. The way someone reincarnates is far different than someone becoming a Hexblood for example. They are two different things and should be treated differently.
Lineages have the potential to be something greater. But they must work in a way that adds to the experience of the game. Not only as a starting race feature, but potentially something that can seamlessly be applied to an existing character.
This is a must and extends *far* more than just Aarakocra. What about Dragonborn? Do they lose their innate Breath Weapon that is integral to who they are because they adopt a lineage? Or even better; Leonin. Do they lose the ability to roar because they became a Hexblood?
No, the answer is it's rediclous to lose innate traits to the race. Which is why I made this post in the hopes that there is a way to both keep balance and the defining racial traits.
Check out the other thread where I raise the reincarnation argument (me and Yuriel agree on something which is some cosmic gravity) and defend the stripping of the characters past. I actually think the Transformers analogy is key.
But as to Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) taken not being anything like reincarnation, I know you don't want it to be that way but if you think about what's actually happening to the character taking on the lineage, there are considerable similarities. The difference being that the transformation in becoming a Gothline is more horrific in that your humanoid type is becoming the host for a supernatural (undead, fey, or construct magic) type to become "something else." So no, no Dragonborn traits, your cultural lineages get washed away, your tortle shell is a flakey leather sack, if you were an aarocowhatever you're feathers have developed the avian equivalent of mange. You shouldn't be alive, but yet you live corporeally as something else entirely from what you were. Your class was ... useful ... to whatever transformed you. Like Galvatron to Megatron, especially if you eat up the Transformers lore about the Dark Universe, then it's hecka apt.
I honestly think the following paragraph is very important and is a copy/paste from the UA in question. Where all this new lineage stuff completely ignores this paragraph.
Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage. Such traits include things like darkvision, a breath weapon (as in the dragonborn), or innate magical ability (as in the forest gnome). Such traits don’t include cultural characteristics, like language or training with a weapon or a tool, and the traits also don’t include an alignment suggestion, since alignment is a choice for each individual, not a characteristic shared by a lineage.
EDIT: below
So with the custom lineage you cannot be a dragonborn
Your character is vulnerable to silvered weapons? Woo. Nobody has silvered weapons, and for a majority of character classes that vulnerability is meaningless since they don't fight in close combat. Most high-level monsters use their own innate biological weapons or magical abilities and have no weapons to silver. Silvered weapon vulnerability is a joke. Same with holy water, which deals pointless levels of damage outside anything but Tier 1 play.
Sunlight sensitivity? Woo. Players have been getting around Sunlight Sensitivity for years. It's not even a balancing mechanic on drow or kobolds, let alone something as powerful as a dhampir. Even Sunlight Hypersensitivity, i.e "you take literal burning damage from direct sunlight", lasts only as long as "I've saved up enough to buy my Clothing of SPF+2", or whatever else the player does to negate the weakness.
Turning Gothic lineages into free bolt-ons that can be added to anybody without any real cost or drawback essentially makes these lineages mandatory for groups that use them. Someone who just sticks with their normal old boring human-passing self, all alive and uncursed and shit, is way behind the curve when lined up with anyone who's been Touched By Gothness. It becomes almost strictly advantageous to seek out and become cursed by these horrific blasphemies against nature. Which is so not the intent.
"Add-on"-ing the Gothic lineages would also make it impossible to do what these things were meant to do and allow you to create a character cursed by the Goth from the start. You can't just make a dhampir - you have to make something else then hope your DM sets up the game such that you get dhampir'd in mid-campaign, no matter if you were really keen on doing something cool with a character that's been a dhampir for as long as they can remember, or who was born to the Hexblood's taint. To say nothing of the fact that the Reborn lineage doesn't even work as an add-on - the entire point of the Reborn comes apart completely if you're exactly the same person, you just came back from the dead for freebies for whatever reason.
The operating phrase setting the assertion's parameters is "the race options in this article and in future D&D books." It's prospective not retroactive. All the races published prior to this UA still stand with their cultural baggage, so to speak. Tasha's gives some options to changing some of them out.
But to your point, how do the Gothlines (tm Midnightplat 2021) contradict the assertion you're quoting? Looks like they play exactly by the rules the UA is laying out in greybox space.
But the operating phrase setting the assertion's parameters is "the race options in this article and in future D&D books." It's prospective not retroactive. All the races published prior to this UA still stand with their cultural baggage, so to speak. Tasha's gives some options to changing some of them out.
But to your point how do the Gothlines (tm Midnightplat 2021) contradict the assertion you're quoting? Looks like they play exactly by the rules the UA is laying out in greybox space.
This is kind of my point. The stripping of all the physical traits makes perfect sense. You are physically transformed into a new creature. Losing the cultural stuff is just poor rules planning. These Lineages will mesh well with future Lineages because the Cultural things won't be there to get in the way. The way it is set up right now, leaves it to the DM to fix the lazy half ass rule set because they are too afraid to just pull the trigger and do a full revamp of Races into Lineages. That is the problem. This is just sloppy and once again puts the burden of all the work on the DM's to figure out how to make the pieces fit.
Your character is vulnerable to silvered weapons? Woo. Nobody has silvered weapons, and for a majority of character classes that vulnerability is meaningless since they don't fight in close combat. Most high-level monsters use their own innate biological weapons or magical abilities and have no weapons to silver. Silvered weapon vulnerability is a joke. Same with holy water, which deals pointless levels of damage outside anything but Tier 1 play.
Sunlight sensitivity? Woo. Players have been getting around Sunlight Sensitivity for years. It's not even a balancing mechanic on drow or kobolds, let alone something as powerful as a dhampir. Even Sunlight Hypersensitivity, i.e "you take literal burning damage from direct sunlight", lasts only as long as "I've saved up enough to buy my Clothing of SPF+2", or whatever else the player does to negate the weakness.
Turning Gothic lineages into free bolt-ons that can be added to anybody without any real cost or drawback essentially makes these lineages mandatory for groups that use them. Someone who just sticks with their normal old boring human-passing self, all alive and uncursed and shit, is way behind the curve when lined up with anyone who's been Touched By Gothness. It becomes almost strictly advantageous to seek out and become cursed by these horrific blasphemies against nature. Which is so not the intent.
"Add-on"-ing the Gothic lineages would also make it impossible to do what these things were meant to do and allow you to create a character cursed by the Goth from the start. You can't just make a dhampir - you have to make something else then hope your DM sets up the game such that you get dhampir'd in mid-campaign, no matter if you were really keen on doing something cool with a character that's been a dhampir for as long as they can remember, or who was born to the Hexblood's taint. To say nothing of the fact that the Reborn lineage doesn't even work as an add-on - the entire point of the Reborn comes apart completely if you're exactly the same person, you just came back from the dead for freebies for whatever reason.
You're misquoting and misunderstanding a lot of what I say. In turn, this really hinders your argument rather than making a compelling side to your argument.
You say "Weaknesses don't balance shit"... Well, Have you ever played a Drow with Sunlight sensitivity? Disadvantage is a pretty big negative. It's not always avoidable and when it does hit you, it hits hard.
Also, you *only* mention Silvered weapons, when I clearly state that you'd have a choice of potentially multiple weaknesses.
Nobody uses Silvered Weapons? If a DM has a character with a Silver Weakness, you can bet good money they will tailor a foe thay exploits that weakness.
Again, you're not making a good argument. Your response feels more emotional than logical :/
Check out the other thread where I raise the reincarnation argument (me and Yuriel agree on something which is some cosmic gravity) and defend the stripping of the characters past. I actually think the Transformers analogy is key.
But as to Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) taken not being anything like reincarnation, I know you don't want it to be that way but if you think about what's actually happening to the character taking on the lineage, there are considerable similarities. The difference being that the transformation in becoming a Gothline is more horrific in that your humanoid type is becoming the host for a supernatural (undead, fey, or construct magic) type to become "something else." So no, no Dragonborn traits, your cultural lineages get washed away, your tortle shell is a flakey leather sack, if you were an aarocowhatever you're feathers have developed the avian equivalent of mange. You shouldn't be alive, but yet you live corporeally as something else entirely from what you were. Your class was ... useful ... to whatever transformed you. Like Galvatron to Megatron, especially if you eat up the Transformers lore about the Dark Universe, then it's hecka apt.
I think the perspective I come from is simply that not every undead is treated equal. Meaning, One player might have a weak shell, But another undead might have a perfectly healthy shell, all depending on what the *player* wants for their character.
Also, I think the fact we are having this conversation reflects the conversations that would have to be had for everyone who wants to play a lineage and their DM's. This highlights the point I am ultimately making is that we need this to be *clearly* defined and logical. A Dhampire doesn't lose their shell unless a player wants that for their character. An Aarakocra might still have perfectly functional wings, even if it becomes a Undead.
So to save conflict at character creation, stating what stays, what goes and what flaws are gained is an important discussion :)
But the operating phrase setting the assertion's parameters is "the race options in this article and in future D&D books." It's prospective not retroactive. All the races published prior to this UA still stand with their cultural baggage, so to speak. Tasha's gives some options to changing some of them out.
But to your point how do the Gothlines (tm Midnightplat 2021) contradict the assertion you're quoting? Looks like they play exactly by the rules the UA is laying out in greybox space.
This is kind of my point. The stripping of all the physical traits makes perfect sense. You are physically transformed into a new creature. Losing the cultural stuff is just poor rules planning. These Lineages will mesh well with future Lineages because the Cultural things won't be there to get in the way. The way it is set up right now, leaves it to the DM to fix the lazy half ass rule set because they are too afraid to just pull the trigger and do a full revamp of Races into Lineages. That is the problem. This is just sloppy and once again puts the burden of all the work on the DM's to figure out how to make the pieces fit.
I guess I'm still hoping that by 2023-24, WotC will have a full blooded, so to speak, lineage system from which Pre TCoE races can be generated as well as whatever new options are presented. I know quite a few folks aren't as optimistic and presume we'll be left with this patchwork stuff that I think you're, and I'd say you're fairly, finding fault with. But I think I'm seeing a pattern getting teased out that's actually better outlined than the obelisk lore nonsense that got the grand revelation in Rime of the Frostmaiden. I usually bet on my pattern recognition.
I now what to roll up some Decepticons and reborn a few with Unicorn patronage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Check out the other thread where I raise the reincarnation argument (me and Yuriel agree on something which is some cosmic gravity) and defend the stripping of the characters past. I actually think the Transformers analogy is key.
But as to Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) taken not being anything like reincarnation, I know you don't want it to be that way but if you think about what's actually happening to the character taking on the lineage, there are considerable similarities. The difference being that the transformation in becoming a Gothline is more horrific in that your humanoid type is becoming the host for a supernatural (undead, fey, or construct magic) type to become "something else." So no, no Dragonborn traits, your cultural lineages get washed away, your tortle shell is a flakey leather sack, if you were an aarocowhatever you're feathers have developed the avian equivalent of mange. You shouldn't be alive, but yet you live corporeally as something else entirely from what you were. Your class was ... useful ... to whatever transformed you. Like Galvatron to Megatron, especially if you eat up the Transformers lore about the Dark Universe, then it's hecka apt.
Never mind. I am just being too grumpy and rude over this.
But the operating phrase setting the assertion's parameters is "the race options in this article and in future D&D books." It's prospective not retroactive. All the races published prior to this UA still stand with their cultural baggage, so to speak. Tasha's gives some options to changing some of them out.
But to your point how do the Gothlines (tm Midnightplat 2021) contradict the assertion you're quoting? Looks like they play exactly by the rules the UA is laying out in greybox space.
This is kind of my point. The stripping of all the physical traits makes perfect sense. You are physically transformed into a new creature. Losing the cultural stuff is just poor rules planning. These Lineages will mesh well with future Lineages because the Cultural things won't be there to get in the way. The way it is set up right now, leaves it to the DM to fix the lazy half ass rule set because they are too afraid to just pull the trigger and do a full revamp of Races into Lineages. That is the problem. This is just sloppy and once again puts the burden of all the work on the DM's to figure out how to make the pieces fit.
I guess I'm still hoping that by 2023-24, WotC will have a full blooded, so to speak, lineage system from which Pre TCoE races can be generated as well as whatever new options are presented. I know quite a few folks aren't as optimistic and presume we'll be left with this patchwork stuff that I think you're, and I'd say you're fairly, finding fault with. But I think I'm seeing a pattern getting teased out that's actually better outlined than the obelisk lore nonsense that got the grand revelation in Rime of the Frostmaiden. I usually bet on my pattern recognition.
I now what to roll up some Decepticons and reborn a few with Unicorn patronage.
Check out the other thread where I raise the reincarnation argument (me and Yuriel agree on something which is some cosmic gravity) and defend the stripping of the characters past. I actually think the Transformers analogy is key.
But as to Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) taken not being anything like reincarnation, I know you don't want it to be that way but if you think about what's actually happening to the character taking on the lineage, there are considerable similarities. The difference being that the transformation in becoming a Gothline is more horrific in that your humanoid type is becoming the host for a supernatural (undead, fey, or construct magic) type to become "something else." So no, no Dragonborn traits, your cultural lineages get washed away, your tortle shell is a flakey leather sack, if you were an aarocowhatever you're feathers have developed the avian equivalent of mange. You shouldn't be alive, but yet you live corporeally as something else entirely from what you were. Your class was ... useful ... to whatever transformed you. Like Galvatron to Megatron, especially if you eat up the Transformers lore about the Dark Universe, then it's hecka apt.
Never mind. I am just being too grumpy and rude over this.
Sorry.
Hey no worries, I think we just want the game to succeed at the end of the day :) That passion is good
Check out the other thread where I raise the reincarnation argument (me and Yuriel agree on something which is some cosmic gravity) and defend the stripping of the characters past. I actually think the Transformers analogy is key.
But as to Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) taken not being anything like reincarnation, I know you don't want it to be that way but if you think about what's actually happening to the character taking on the lineage, there are considerable similarities. The difference being that the transformation in becoming a Gothline is more horrific in that your humanoid type is becoming the host for a supernatural (undead, fey, or construct magic) type to become "something else." So no, no Dragonborn traits, your cultural lineages get washed away, your tortle shell is a flakey leather sack, if you were an aarocowhatever you're feathers have developed the avian equivalent of mange. You shouldn't be alive, but yet you live corporeally as something else entirely from what you were. Your class was ... useful ... to whatever transformed you. Like Galvatron to Megatron, especially if you eat up the Transformers lore about the Dark Universe, then it's hecka apt.
I think the perspective I come from is simply that not every undead is treated equal. Meaning, One player might have a weak shell, But another undead might have a perfectly healthy shell, all depending on what the *player* wants for their character.
Also, I think the fact we are having this conversation reflects the conversations that would have to be had for everyone who wants to play a lineage and their DM's. This highlights the point I am ultimately making is that we need this to be *clearly* defined and logical. A Dhampire doesn't lose their shell unless a player wants that for their character. An Aarakocra might still have perfectly functional wings, even if it becomes a Undead.
So to save conflict at character creation, stating what stays, what goes and what flaws are gained is an important discussion :)
What happens when you have a character in the DDB character builder and then take on the lineage? There's your answer. A lot of folks want to force ambiguity because they want their characters to preserve traits the UA RAW say go away. That's not ambiguity that's someone wanting things one way, but the UA RAW are another way. You can say you don't like it because it frustrates player agency, but that's saying you don't like the rules and giving your reason for disliking it. As written, there isn't any ambiguity.
Hopefully you had time to respond to survey and maybe they listened and will rethinking applying templates. I have doubts on that, and I think the designers presumed balance reasons are sound and can wrap my head canon around a lore reason for it thanks to a cartoon movie from 1985. You got the touch, you got the power, until Unicron turns you into something different. Now I'm wondering who Cyclonus was. Definitely wasn't Starscream.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Check out the other thread where I raise the reincarnation argument (me and Yuriel agree on something which is some cosmic gravity) and defend the stripping of the characters past. I actually think the Transformers analogy is key.
But as to Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) taken not being anything like reincarnation, I know you don't want it to be that way but if you think about what's actually happening to the character taking on the lineage, there are considerable similarities. The difference being that the transformation in becoming a Gothline is more horrific in that your humanoid type is becoming the host for a supernatural (undead, fey, or construct magic) type to become "something else." So no, no Dragonborn traits, your cultural lineages get washed away, your tortle shell is a flakey leather sack, if you were an aarocowhatever you're feathers have developed the avian equivalent of mange. You shouldn't be alive, but yet you live corporeally as something else entirely from what you were. Your class was ... useful ... to whatever transformed you. Like Galvatron to Megatron, especially if you eat up the Transformers lore about the Dark Universe, then it's hecka apt.
I think the perspective I come from is simply that not every undead is treated equal. Meaning, One player might have a weak shell, But another undead might have a perfectly healthy shell, all depending on what the *player* wants for their character.
Also, I think the fact we are having this conversation reflects the conversations that would have to be had for everyone who wants to play a lineage and their DM's. This highlights the point I am ultimately making is that we need this to be *clearly* defined and logical. A Dhampire doesn't lose their shell unless a player wants that for their character. An Aarakocra might still have perfectly functional wings, even if it becomes a Undead.
So to save conflict at character creation, stating what stays, what goes and what flaws are gained is an important discussion :)
What happens when you have a character in the DDB character builder and then take on the lineage? There's your answer. A lot of folks want to force ambiguity because they want their characters to preserve traits the UA RAW say go away. That's not ambiguity that's someone wanting things one way, but the UA RAW are another way. You can say you don't like it because it frustrates player agency, but that's saying you don't like the rules and giving your reason for disliking it. As written, there isn't any ambiguity.
Hopefully you had time to respond to survey and maybe they listened and will rethinking applying templates. I have doubts on that, and I think the designers presumed balance reasons are sound and can wrap my head canon around a lore reason for it thanks to a cartoon movie from 1985. You got the touch, you got the power, until Unicron turns you into something different. Now I'm wondering who Cyclonus was. Definitely wasn't Starscream.
To say I dislike the rules is simply wrong. I see an issue, I am proposing a better way to handle that issue. You seem stuck on the idea that the race MUST change entirely, while ignoring important factors such as Physical traits. Logically, How does it make sense for an Aarakocra to lose its wings?
So EVERY single Aarakocra that becomes a Dhampire must lose its wings? Why? Where does it say that in the lore? What about Hexbloods, Are they the same as Dhampires? Everyone MUST lose their wings? Where in the lore does it specifically state that?
No where. Your point in correct context doesn't hold up. You have to take the lore and the world building into account. Lineage is NOT reincarnation. Those are two separate things.
A separate lineage system is not only a good idea, they open up the possibility to have NEW lineages down the road that can seamlessly be applied to existing races. Giving D&D more potential for marketing and new content.
I really love Lineages, but I truly believe they should become their own system that compliments a players existing race. Otherwise, it causes problems when it comes to character creation.
For example; If I am playing an Aarakocra Dhampir, By RAW, I lose my flight ability as well as my Talons. This makes no sense considering I still have those wings. It's integral to the race I am playing and is part of them. It isn't stated anywhere in lore or in the lineage itself that I lose those wings or they become damaged in any way. So now we run into the issue where I have healthy wings, but can't use them.
This creates a conflict between Player and DM where both sides must justify either or side. Instead of making this an easy and seamless process, it becomes something that is potentially burdensome for both player and DM.
The reason I bring this up is because we should clearly define what traits are kept from the original race and what are potentially lost. Perhaps what negatives are gained to balance the player as a whole. Personally I suggest having the option to choose from multiple Flaws and Weaknesses.
If things are clearly defined, it helps with any conflict at character creation and help avoid the need to win a debate as well as make logical sense. A Tortle should keep his shell, it only makes sense logically. :)
To help explain my point more, here's a quick summary:
- By RAW, Races lose a lot of their former racial traits when they adopt their lineage. Problem is, some of these traits are integral to the race itself. Aarakocra losing their ability to fly being the easiest example. An Aarakocra doesn't suddenly lose their wings when they become a Dhampir, Hexblood or Reborn. It isn't stated that happens in any form. [Players may choose to have that flaw, but that's a personal decision to develop the character]
- Even more: Tritons lose their ability to breathe water and swim speed, Tortles lose their shell, Dragonborn lose their Breath Attack. The list goes on and the problem becomes more clear once you sit down and think in terms of Lore and Logic.
- Making Lineages an Addon to existing races solves this conflict as well as making it easier to add (Or potentially remove) to an existing character mid-campaign. The idea that one can be cured of their Undeath is very interesting. Making this an Addon makes it seamless.
- There should be a list of flaws that also should be added or that you can choose from. (Which I think could be fun)
- Making it a separate Framework helps set up the possibility of NEW Lineages. Maybe finding a Powerful Elemental might infuse you with Fire like a Genasi.
- This can be Marketed and make money for D&D. Being a "Fire Goliath" for example would have a lot of appeal to a lot of different players. [Gain resistance to fire, possible weakness to Cold for example] This is just one example; I see plenty of people mixing and matching different Lineage Addon's with different races to make fun and unique characters.
- This now adds new potential for campaigns. Players can change accordingly as the campaign goes on and the setting allows it. Visiting the Plane of Fire might give you opportunities to be infused with said power. Visiting a Vampire might give you the ability to become a Dhampir or Vampire themselves.
This has been suggested approximately two hundred thousand times since the Gothic Lineages UA dropped. Literally everyone points to either aarakocra or tortles as the reason why, despite both of those species being vanishingly rare as actual PCs.
The general counterthought is that forcing the Gothic lineages to be add-on templates means that either a DM has to allow players to add a bunch of free superpowers to their character with no drawbacks or penalties whatsoever, or the lineage templates have to effectively be a zero-sum thing with huge and egregious drawbacks to balance their strengths. Except that doesn't actually work - RPG players have a rich, storied history of finding ways to squirm out from under 'Balancing Drawbacks' and enjoy the benefits of a powerful option anyways.
Species like elves are super overloaded as it is - making an elven dhampir that has all the benefits of being an elf and all the benefits of being a dhampir just strikes me as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. A DM can provisionally approve the retention of specific pre-dhampir traits, but these lineages are supposed to be selected at character creation in lieu of selecting a traditional species. A DM who chooses to allow a player to go swapsies in mid-campaign is going to have to heavily adjudicate things regardless.
Heh. It has also just occurred to me that absolutely nobody has these problems when discussing the Reincarnation spell, which forcibly changes a character's species (most of the time, anyways). The PC loses all its old traits, including 'knowledge' things like Elf Weapon Training or species-based skill proficiencies, and gains the shit from its new species, and nobody has ever cared. Wonder why that is?
Please do not contact or message me.
I honestly haven't had anyone use the Reincarnate spell without the DM pushing it as their only option. To be fair, it is very rare to not have a Cleric of some kind in any of the games I am in. I have seen it used once to "fix" a character because the player decided that they would rather play a different race, but the Player and DM agreed ahead of time on the results.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
My issue with the lineages replacing all previous racial abilities is more to do with the ability to turn into one of these lineages mid campaign. It really doesn't make much sense to me that a supernatural gift suddenly makes me lose everything I had before, especially ones who's changes aren't that drastic. If my character spent their life learning how to survive out in the wilderness (proficiency to Survival), or studying to use a particular weapon (Weapon Training), or mastering a cantrip (Innate Magic), and so on and so on......why does suddenly being turned into a Dhampir make me lose all that? It isn't just Aarakocra flight or Tortle shells, none of the lineages give the players the ability to retain any of the proficiency and abilities of their racial/cultural upbringings that logically make sense to transition over to the new lineage classification.
This is why I feel there needs to be a bigger overhaul of how racial, cultural, and personal upbringing/background traits are classified and chosen at character creation. Especially if you are trying to make the old races and the new lineages work together coherently. It's why I actually wouldn't mind if they went back and broke up the older races into racial and cultural features and they made a separate system for cultural/learned options, and a better way to explain how changing lineages (like to a Dhampir) affects the biology of the character. As it stands right now, the lineages are a clucky mess mechanically if applied in the current manner, at least that is my opinion of them.
In the end this doesn't kill my love of D&D in the slightest. If WotC really thinks this is the best way to handle races/lineages going forward then that's alright with me. I don't mind changing things for my own games and I'm happy others really like this new Character Creation method. I just personally think more can be done to make it that much better.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
^^^100%
The biological changes, sure, I guess, kind of.
Forgetting everything that you learned growing up but not the the stuff you learned from adventuring? Not so much
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Talk with your DM to replace one of your ASI/Feats with the Linage if you want your undead Tortle.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]@Yurei
You're saying that I want all of this to be free additions to make characters OP, which is simply not the case. I do say that there should be negatives in place for each of these lineages. Whether a weakness to silver, sunlight, or maybe a choice of weaknesses.
Reincarnation is a different spell. The way someone reincarnates is far different than someone becoming a Hexblood for example. They are two different things and should be treated differently.
Lineages have the potential to be something greater. But they must work in a way that adds to the experience of the game. Not only as a starting race feature, but potentially something that can seamlessly be applied to an existing character.
This is a must and extends *far* more than just Aarakocra. What about Dragonborn? Do they lose their innate Breath Weapon that is integral to who they are because they adopt a lineage? Or even better; Leonin. Do they lose the ability to roar because they became a Hexblood?
No, the answer is it's rediclous to lose innate traits to the race. Which is why I made this post in the hopes that there is a way to both keep balance and the defining racial traits.
@Sgteddybear34
Check out the other thread where I raise the reincarnation argument (me and Yuriel agree on something which is some cosmic gravity) and defend the stripping of the characters past. I actually think the Transformers analogy is key.
But as to Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) taken not being anything like reincarnation, I know you don't want it to be that way but if you think about what's actually happening to the character taking on the lineage, there are considerable similarities. The difference being that the transformation in becoming a Gothline is more horrific in that your humanoid type is becoming the host for a supernatural (undead, fey, or construct magic) type to become "something else." So no, no Dragonborn traits, your cultural lineages get washed away, your tortle shell is a flakey leather sack, if you were an aarocowhatever you're feathers have developed the avian equivalent of mange. You shouldn't be alive, but yet you live corporeally as something else entirely from what you were. Your class was ... useful ... to whatever transformed you. Like Galvatron to Megatron, especially if you eat up the Transformers lore about the Dark Universe, then it's hecka apt.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I honestly think the following paragraph is very important and is a copy/paste from the UA in question. Where all this new lineage stuff completely ignores this paragraph.
Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage. Such traits include things like darkvision, a breath weapon (as in the dragonborn), or innate magical ability (as in the forest gnome). Such traits don’t include cultural characteristics, like language or training with a weapon or a tool, and the traits also don’t include an alignment suggestion, since alignment is a choice for each individual, not a characteristic shared by a lineage.
EDIT: below
So with the custom lineage you cannot be a dragonborn
Like I said: weaknesses don't balance shit.
Your character is vulnerable to silvered weapons? Woo. Nobody has silvered weapons, and for a majority of character classes that vulnerability is meaningless since they don't fight in close combat. Most high-level monsters use their own innate biological weapons or magical abilities and have no weapons to silver. Silvered weapon vulnerability is a joke. Same with holy water, which deals pointless levels of damage outside anything but Tier 1 play.
Sunlight sensitivity? Woo. Players have been getting around Sunlight Sensitivity for years. It's not even a balancing mechanic on drow or kobolds, let alone something as powerful as a dhampir. Even Sunlight Hypersensitivity, i.e "you take literal burning damage from direct sunlight", lasts only as long as "I've saved up enough to buy my Clothing of SPF+2", or whatever else the player does to negate the weakness.
Turning Gothic lineages into free bolt-ons that can be added to anybody without any real cost or drawback essentially makes these lineages mandatory for groups that use them. Someone who just sticks with their normal old boring human-passing self, all alive and uncursed and shit, is way behind the curve when lined up with anyone who's been Touched By Gothness. It becomes almost strictly advantageous to seek out and become cursed by these horrific blasphemies against nature. Which is so not the intent.
"Add-on"-ing the Gothic lineages would also make it impossible to do what these things were meant to do and allow you to create a character cursed by the Goth from the start. You can't just make a dhampir - you have to make something else then hope your DM sets up the game such that you get dhampir'd in mid-campaign, no matter if you were really keen on doing something cool with a character that's been a dhampir for as long as they can remember, or who was born to the Hexblood's taint. To say nothing of the fact that the Reborn lineage doesn't even work as an add-on - the entire point of the Reborn comes apart completely if you're exactly the same person, you just came back from the dead for freebies for whatever reason.
Please do not contact or message me.
The operating phrase setting the assertion's parameters is "the race options in this article and in future D&D books." It's prospective not retroactive. All the races published prior to this UA still stand with their cultural baggage, so to speak. Tasha's gives some options to changing some of them out.
But to your point, how do the Gothlines (tm Midnightplat 2021) contradict the assertion you're quoting? Looks like they play exactly by the rules the UA is laying out in greybox space.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This is kind of my point. The stripping of all the physical traits makes perfect sense. You are physically transformed into a new creature. Losing the cultural stuff is just poor rules planning. These Lineages will mesh well with future Lineages because the Cultural things won't be there to get in the way. The way it is set up right now, leaves it to the DM to fix the lazy half ass rule set because they are too afraid to just pull the trigger and do a full revamp of Races into Lineages. That is the problem. This is just sloppy and once again puts the burden of all the work on the DM's to figure out how to make the pieces fit.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You're misquoting and misunderstanding a lot of what I say. In turn, this really hinders your argument rather than making a compelling side to your argument.
You say "Weaknesses don't balance shit"... Well, Have you ever played a Drow with Sunlight sensitivity? Disadvantage is a pretty big negative. It's not always avoidable and when it does hit you, it hits hard.
Also, you *only* mention Silvered weapons, when I clearly state that you'd have a choice of potentially multiple weaknesses.
Nobody uses Silvered Weapons? If a DM has a character with a Silver Weakness, you can bet good money they will tailor a foe thay exploits that weakness.
Again, you're not making a good argument. Your response feels more emotional than logical :/
I think the perspective I come from is simply that not every undead is treated equal. Meaning, One player might have a weak shell, But another undead might have a perfectly healthy shell, all depending on what the *player* wants for their character.
Also, I think the fact we are having this conversation reflects the conversations that would have to be had for everyone who wants to play a lineage and their DM's. This highlights the point I am ultimately making is that we need this to be *clearly* defined and logical. A Dhampire doesn't lose their shell unless a player wants that for their character. An Aarakocra might still have perfectly functional wings, even if it becomes a Undead.
So to save conflict at character creation, stating what stays, what goes and what flaws are gained is an important discussion :)
I guess I'm still hoping that by 2023-24, WotC will have a full blooded, so to speak, lineage system from which Pre TCoE races can be generated as well as whatever new options are presented. I know quite a few folks aren't as optimistic and presume we'll be left with this patchwork stuff that I think you're, and I'd say you're fairly, finding fault with. But I think I'm seeing a pattern getting teased out that's actually better outlined than the obelisk lore nonsense that got the grand revelation in Rime of the Frostmaiden. I usually bet on my pattern recognition.
I now what to roll up some Decepticons and reborn a few with Unicorn patronage.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Never mind. I am just being too grumpy and rude over this.
Sorry.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I hope you are right.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Hey no worries, I think we just want the game to succeed at the end of the day :) That passion is good
What happens when you have a character in the DDB character builder and then take on the lineage? There's your answer. A lot of folks want to force ambiguity because they want their characters to preserve traits the UA RAW say go away. That's not ambiguity that's someone wanting things one way, but the UA RAW are another way. You can say you don't like it because it frustrates player agency, but that's saying you don't like the rules and giving your reason for disliking it. As written, there isn't any ambiguity.
Hopefully you had time to respond to survey and maybe they listened and will rethinking applying templates. I have doubts on that, and I think the designers presumed balance reasons are sound and can wrap my head canon around a lore reason for it thanks to a cartoon movie from 1985. You got the touch, you got the power, until Unicron turns you into something different. Now I'm wondering who Cyclonus was. Definitely wasn't Starscream.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
To say I dislike the rules is simply wrong. I see an issue, I am proposing a better way to handle that issue. You seem stuck on the idea that the race MUST change entirely, while ignoring important factors such as Physical traits. Logically, How does it make sense for an Aarakocra to lose its wings?
So EVERY single Aarakocra that becomes a Dhampire must lose its wings? Why? Where does it say that in the lore? What about Hexbloods, Are they the same as Dhampires? Everyone MUST lose their wings? Where in the lore does it specifically state that?
No where. Your point in correct context doesn't hold up. You have to take the lore and the world building into account. Lineage is NOT reincarnation. Those are two separate things.
A separate lineage system is not only a good idea, they open up the possibility to have NEW lineages down the road that can seamlessly be applied to existing races. Giving D&D more potential for marketing and new content.