I'm not sure the tactical reason as to why you would burn your action surge right away, but I'm sure a player somewhere has done it. And Guiding Bolt is a good alternative but if they are a non-spell caster it's an alternative if things really went awry.
In UA it is currently d8 not d6. Besides, the dragon's breath is still AoE. I pop up behind 5 goblins standing next to each other, do the action surge combo once and all the goblins are dead. In avarage it should be arround 18 damage with this combo.
Edit: I know they could still save but also could you throw a better amount of damage... They still get half damage on save... And to why you should do that... Not everyones adventuring day has the same amount of encounters. My dm always has only 2 to 3 encounters and my example is still Level 2, killing a group in one round is crazy...
In UA it is currently d8 not d6. Besides, the dragon's breath is still AoE. I pop up behind 5 goblins standing next to each other, do the action surge combo once and all the goblins are dead. In avarage it should be arround 18 damage with this combo.
I don't see the problem here. You're expending a ton of resources to do this. Action Surge is only once a short rest, and Dragon's Breath is PB/long rest. You're only going to be able to do this once per day, and once per day being able to use your racial features to kill some goblins is really not an overpowered feature. I honestly am baffled that anyone is advocating for the previous breath weapon types (besides the AoE shapes), as anyone that has played a Dragonborn will likely tell you how awful their Breath Weapon is, especially at late levels.
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In UA it is currently d8 not d6. Besides, the dragon's breath is still AoE. I pop up behind 5 goblins standing next to each other, do the action surge combo once and all the goblins are dead. In avarage it should be arround 18 damage with this combo.
This spends your only action surge and both uses of your breath for 1 encounter. I don't see how that breaks anything. I also don't understand why all the goblins are standing in a perfect cone or line. Do the goblins normally do this in the games you have played?
I said I would prefer if they would do half proficiency as uses... Not saying that it is already good as it is. Still the dragonborn is the only race with a scaling AoE ability, isn't it? It's already great that it scales with your level even if it is a better scaling in the UA version.
I was going to wait until the official forum was written to get my thoughts out, but here I am.
Upping the damage dice of the breath weapon and giving multiple uses per proficiency bonus is actually identical to some homebrew that I've made, so that's neat. Didn't think to let them replace attacks though, but it's probably a good idea. The kobold seems balanced to me, the new dragonborn still seem a little under the curve, at least by my math. I don't think the delay til 3rd level on the unique features is necessary, and even then they could use a little something extra.
Not sure what the minor backlash about damage immunity is for. Near as I can tell the most use it's going to get is letting chromatic characters save people from burning buildings a lot. Damage types just aren't consistent enough IMO, and the reason they probably went with it is cuz chromatic dragons don't share any unique traits like the metallics do. Though if enough people are bothered by it. . . maybe they could have something like frightful presence? That could be fun.
The metallic dragonborn's alternate breath weapon seems a fair bit weaker than the chromatic protection or the gem flight. Maybe let them use it more than once a day?
I love the idea of having dragonborn with more esoteric damage types. I'm a bit hesitant to allow them in my games though, just cuz of the way I handle psionics. That's not really the UA's fault though. The telepathy also seems tacked on, like they don't really need it balance wise.
I'm very surprised at the vitriol the kobold is getting. I made my own versions of the dragonborn and kobold cuz I thought they both were substantially weaker, but I guess a lot more people got more mileage out of Pack Tactics. As a draconic flavored grovel I'm fine with the roar, although I'd probably favor it as keening for my characters. The tail attack seems like an especially weird thing for people to get upset over. It's a tactic that real-world reptiles use fairly frequently, and I'm glad to see more variety in natural weapons. If you want something to reflect the kobold's trapmaking, proficiency with thieve's tools would probably be the way to do it, since in Xanathar's that's what you use to make traps, and it's on par with the other Draconic Legacy options.
I said I would prefer if they would do half proficiency as uses... Not saying that it is already good as it is. Still the dragonborn is the only race with a scaling AoE ability, isn't it? It's already great that it scales with your level even if it is a better scaling in the UA version.
That's even less uses than the PHB dragonborn, which is once a short rest. I would be fine with Half Proficiency Bonus uses each Short Rest and d6 damage, but not Half-Proficiency Bonus uses each Long Rest and d8 damage. That's just needlessly restrictive.
Action Surge is a feature only one class gets. The feature isn't crazy broken or OP because one class can use both uses in one turn.
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In UA it is currently d8 not d6. Besides, the dragon's breath is still AoE. I pop up behind 5 goblins standing next to each other, do the action surge combo once and all the goblins are dead. In avarage it should be arround 18 damage with this combo.
This spends your only action surge and both uses of your breath for 1 encounter. I don't see how that breaks anything. I also don't understand why all the goblins are standing in a perfect cone or line. Do the goblins normally do this in the games you have played?
sigh... even if there are only 3 opponents. It's a hell of a lot of damage you can deal in one round, something like an ultimate move. Most races get that much damage (for example Burning Hands) only at level 3 and even then it's 3d6. With no race does this ability even scale. So just Fire Genasi as an example. They get Burning Hands at level 3 and can cast it once per day at level 1. Now comes our dear dragon born, does more damage, does it more often and the whole thing already at level 1! If we compare just the AoE Damage...
Edit: Just to be clear, I think it's good that there are changes. I also find the more uses really cool, but difficult at low level. The Dragonborn gives every class already on level one two area attacks that are quite strong.
As a level 2 fighter I would love the combo with action surge, but I would also know that it might be a bit too strong. My original plan was to use my echo knight to also unleash the dragon breath with unleash incarnation, but unleash incarnation can unfortunately only be weapon attacks...
In UA it is currently d8 not d6. Besides, the dragon's breath is still AoE. I pop up behind 5 goblins standing next to each other, do the action surge combo once and all the goblins are dead. In avarage it should be arround 18 damage with this combo.
This spends your only action surge and both uses of your breath for 1 encounter. I don't see how that breaks anything. I also don't understand why all the goblins are standing in a perfect cone or line. Do the goblins normally do this in the games you have played?
sigh... even if there are only 3 opponents. It's a hell of a lot of damage you can deal in one round, something like an ultimate move. Most races get that much damage (for example Burning Hands) only at level 3 and even then it's 3d6. With no race does this ability even scale. So just Fire Genasi as an example. They get Burning Hands at level 3 and can cast it once per day at level 1. Now comes our dear dragon born, does more damage, does it more often and the whole thing already at level 1! If we compare just the AoE Damage...
Edit: Just to be clear, I think it's good that there are changes. I also find the more uses really cool, but difficult at low level. The Dragonborn gives every class already on level one two area attacks that are quite strong.
As a level 2 fighter I would love the combo with action surge, but I would also know that it might be a bit too strong. My original plan was to use my echo knight to also unleash the dragon breath with unleash incarnation, but unleash incarnation can unfortunately only be weapon attacks...
Let's run some numbers. We've got a level 3 Fire Genasi and a level 3 Red Dragonborn, both fighters wielding greatswords. Both have +3 to stats and fire resistance. The fire genasi can burning hands once for 3d6 (average 10.5) damage, can produce flame for 1d8 (average 4.5) at will, and has darkvision. The dragonborn can breathe fire for 2d8 (average 9) damage twice, and can gain fire immunity for 10 minutes.
In one round, the fire genasi casts burning hands and hits two creatures (which the DMG suggests is average for calculating area attacks), dealing 21 damage total on average. They then action surge and attacks with their greatsword, dealing 11.5 damage on average. In one turn they've dealt 32.5 damage
On their turn, the dragonborn breathes fire and also hits two creatures, dealing 18 damage between the two of them on average. They action surge and do it again, dealing another 18 damage. In one turn they've dealt 36 damage.
It's not that much of a difference, and I'd argue that the Produce Flame and Darkvision are a bit more useful than Chromatic Protection, so it's more or less in balance. Not to mention not every player is gonna want to play a fighter, no matter how powerful the combo is.
The potential for burst damage is there and I bet there will be many who would use it. Is there any combo which could deal 4d8 AoE damage in one turn on level 2?
The fire genasi is using his whole uses of burning hand for the day. Then the dragon born should also use his full uses for the day from his dragon breath...
Its just an example for how strong it is in the UA Version right now. Comparing two level 3 character don’t show how great the breath weapon is. The burning hands of the genasi will forever stay at a 1st level spell as the breath weapon scales.
Who gets an scaling AoE attack for free?
If we keep the comparison to the burning hands, we would kinda get a 3th or 4th level burning hands at level 17 for free for 6 times a day? Normally no martial class would get something this great. I know cantrips like produce flame are scaling but they are still single target... Maybe you are right and it isn’t game breaking strong but still there is no race to be compared to the AoE damage of the dragon born.
Currently I am have a level 3 Black Dragonborn Fighter and the one thing I am stoke about is having the ability to do more than one breath weapon before a long rest. I was talking to my DM about ways we could homebrew a way to have more than one. Then he saw this and pointed it out to me and let me adjust my character to it! At that point all the other changes are just a bonus.
Not sure what the minor backlash about damage immunity is for. Near as I can tell the most use it's going to get is letting chromatic characters save people from burning buildings a lot. Damage types just aren't consistent enough IMO, and the reason they probably went with it is cuz chromatic dragons don't share any unique traits like the metallics do.
The real use for damage immunity is if you're in a party with multiple spellcasters who can bust out AoE spells of that damage type. Hurling Fireball, Cone of Cold, or Cloudkill is a lot easier when you've got an ally who's completely immune to the damage type acting as a decoy to draw enemies in.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The fire genasi is using his whole uses of burning hand for the day. Then the dragon born should also use his full uses for the day from his dragon breath...
This is more a valid criticism against genasi than it is the ua dragonborn.
After much thought increasing the damage die and the number of uses to prof bonus times may be a bit much at the high end, what do any of you who play high level campaigns think the 5d8 will stack up vs your encounters?
After much thought increasing the damage die and the number of uses to prof bonus times may be a bit much at the high end, what do any of you who play high level campaigns think the 5d8 will stack up vs your encounters?
I currently have an active high-level campaign (16th-19th). I can guarantee that 5d8 AoE damage that you can use only proficiency-bonus amount of times each day will not break or unbalance any of my encounters. That breath weapon is basically nothing in comparison to prismatic spray or delayed blast fireball.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
After much thought increasing the damage die and the number of uses to prof bonus times may be a bit much at the high end, what do any of you who play high level campaigns think the 5d8 will stack up vs your encounters?
After much thought increasing the damage die and the number of uses to prof bonus times may be a bit much at the high end, what do any of you who play high level campaigns think the 5d8 will stack up vs your encounters?
I currently have an active high-level campaign (16th-19th). I can guarantee that 5d8 AoE damage that you can use only proficiency-bonus amount of times each day will not break or unbalance any of my encounters. That breath weapon is basically nothing in comparison to prismatic spray or delayed blast fireball.
Thank you both, my groups tend to like the build up and start of the lower levels and our groups normally top out around 8ish.
After much thought increasing the damage die and the number of uses to prof bonus times may be a bit much at the high end, what do any of you who play high level campaigns think the 5d8 will stack up vs your encounters?
I currently have an active high-level campaign (16th-19th). I can guarantee that 5d8 AoE damage that you can use only proficiency-bonus amount of times each day will not break or unbalance any of my encounters. That breath weapon is basically nothing in comparison to prismatic spray or delayed blast fireball.
After much thought increasing the damage die and the number of uses to prof bonus times may be a bit much at the high end, what do any of you who play high level campaigns think the 5d8 will stack up vs your encounters?
5d8 is not a lot of damage at all.
It is a lot for any martial class. How would a normal fighter ever deal this much damage with one attack action? And now imagine that you can as fighter use this several times in one round... no other race grants abilities to do something like that. There is nothing else that would give an fighter at level 17 six uses of an 5d8 AoE damage, which scales with your proficiency and constitution...
And also don’t compare a spell caster with the race, maybe it will be normal for spell caster to do this much damage with one attack but they only have one attack. Monks, paladins and fighter gets extra attacks things because they can’t do this much damage with one attack and need more attacks to do so...
Edit: Be prepared bbeg, I will use my action surge and replace the extra attacks all with my breath weapon. 30d8 doesn’t sound that bad. idk if you can replace extra attacks but since it states that you can replace an attack, I would assume that.
I think it would be okay if you say you can only use one breath per turn.
And unless it's a Gem Dragonborn, the damage type is something that's commonly resisted by that point. And it's got a saving throw for half damage that's probably not going to be too difficult for a high-level, since it's tied to Constitution and a fighter will have a good Con but probably won't max it when they could instead be buying feats. Plus, it's an area of effect, yes, but it's not a huge area of effect. As was pointed out earlier in the thread you're probably not going to be catching more than two targets in side it unless they've really clustered together.
A fighter, monk, barbarian, ranger, or paladin dragonborn is getting a crowd control option that's nice but not really as earthshattering as you're making it sound.
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I'm not sure the tactical reason as to why you would burn your action surge right away, but I'm sure a player somewhere has done it. And Guiding Bolt is a good alternative but if they are a non-spell caster it's an alternative if things really went awry.
In UA it is currently d8 not d6. Besides, the dragon's breath is still AoE. I pop up behind 5 goblins standing next to each other, do the action surge combo once and all the goblins are dead. In avarage it should be arround 18 damage with this combo.
Edit: I know they could still save but also could you throw a better amount of damage... They still get half damage on save...
And to why you should do that... Not everyones adventuring day has the same amount of encounters. My dm always has only 2 to 3 encounters and my example is still Level 2, killing a group in one round is crazy...
I don't see the problem here. You're expending a ton of resources to do this. Action Surge is only once a short rest, and Dragon's Breath is PB/long rest. You're only going to be able to do this once per day, and once per day being able to use your racial features to kill some goblins is really not an overpowered feature. I honestly am baffled that anyone is advocating for the previous breath weapon types (besides the AoE shapes), as anyone that has played a Dragonborn will likely tell you how awful their Breath Weapon is, especially at late levels.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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This spends your only action surge and both uses of your breath for 1 encounter. I don't see how that breaks anything. I also don't understand why all the goblins are standing in a perfect cone or line. Do the goblins normally do this in the games you have played?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I said I would prefer if they would do half proficiency as uses... Not saying that it is already good as it is.
Still the dragonborn is the only race with a scaling AoE ability, isn't it? It's already great that it scales with your level even if it is a better scaling in the UA version.
I was going to wait until the official forum was written to get my thoughts out, but here I am.
Upping the damage dice of the breath weapon and giving multiple uses per proficiency bonus is actually identical to some homebrew that I've made, so that's neat. Didn't think to let them replace attacks though, but it's probably a good idea. The kobold seems balanced to me, the new dragonborn still seem a little under the curve, at least by my math. I don't think the delay til 3rd level on the unique features is necessary, and even then they could use a little something extra.
Not sure what the minor backlash about damage immunity is for. Near as I can tell the most use it's going to get is letting chromatic characters save people from burning buildings a lot. Damage types just aren't consistent enough IMO, and the reason they probably went with it is cuz chromatic dragons don't share any unique traits like the metallics do. Though if enough people are bothered by it. . . maybe they could have something like frightful presence? That could be fun.
The metallic dragonborn's alternate breath weapon seems a fair bit weaker than the chromatic protection or the gem flight. Maybe let them use it more than once a day?
I love the idea of having dragonborn with more esoteric damage types. I'm a bit hesitant to allow them in my games though, just cuz of the way I handle psionics. That's not really the UA's fault though. The telepathy also seems tacked on, like they don't really need it balance wise.
I'm very surprised at the vitriol the kobold is getting. I made my own versions of the dragonborn and kobold cuz I thought they both were substantially weaker, but I guess a lot more people got more mileage out of Pack Tactics. As a draconic flavored grovel I'm fine with the roar, although I'd probably favor it as keening for my characters. The tail attack seems like an especially weird thing for people to get upset over. It's a tactic that real-world reptiles use fairly frequently, and I'm glad to see more variety in natural weapons. If you want something to reflect the kobold's trapmaking, proficiency with thieve's tools would probably be the way to do it, since in Xanathar's that's what you use to make traps, and it's on par with the other Draconic Legacy options.
That's even less uses than the PHB dragonborn, which is once a short rest. I would be fine with Half Proficiency Bonus uses each Short Rest and d6 damage, but not Half-Proficiency Bonus uses each Long Rest and d8 damage. That's just needlessly restrictive.
Action Surge is a feature only one class gets. The feature isn't crazy broken or OP because one class can use both uses in one turn.
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sigh... even if there are only 3 opponents. It's a hell of a lot of damage you can deal in one round, something like an ultimate move. Most races get that much damage (for example Burning Hands) only at level 3 and even then it's 3d6. With no race does this ability even scale.
So just Fire Genasi as an example. They get Burning Hands at level 3 and can cast it once per day at level 1.
Now comes our dear dragon born, does more damage, does it more often and the whole thing already at level 1!
If we compare just the AoE Damage...
Edit: Just to be clear, I think it's good that there are changes. I also find the more uses really cool, but difficult at low level. The Dragonborn gives every class already on level one two area attacks that are quite strong.
As a level 2 fighter I would love the combo with action surge, but I would also know that it might be a bit too strong.
My original plan was to use my echo knight to also unleash the dragon breath with unleash incarnation, but unleash incarnation can unfortunately only be weapon attacks...
Reminder to do this, you must be a level 2 fighter and dragonborn.
The wizard or sorcerer has been doing this since level 1, and that doesn't require a specific race combo.
Your comparing a race + class combo to just a race + no class combo, which of course any race with a class is better than a race with no class.
Edit: Yes dragon + fighter works well compared to dragon + other class, but that isn't overpowered in any way.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Let's run some numbers. We've got a level 3 Fire Genasi and a level 3 Red Dragonborn, both fighters wielding greatswords. Both have +3 to stats and fire resistance. The fire genasi can burning hands once for 3d6 (average 10.5) damage, can produce flame for 1d8 (average 4.5) at will, and has darkvision. The dragonborn can breathe fire for 2d8 (average 9) damage twice, and can gain fire immunity for 10 minutes.
In one round, the fire genasi casts burning hands and hits two creatures (which the DMG suggests is average for calculating area attacks), dealing 21 damage total on average. They then action surge and attacks with their greatsword, dealing 11.5 damage on average. In one turn they've dealt 32.5 damage
On their turn, the dragonborn breathes fire and also hits two creatures, dealing 18 damage between the two of them on average. They action surge and do it again, dealing another 18 damage. In one turn they've dealt 36 damage.
It's not that much of a difference, and I'd argue that the Produce Flame and Darkvision are a bit more useful than Chromatic Protection, so it's more or less in balance. Not to mention not every player is gonna want to play a fighter, no matter how powerful the combo is.
The potential for burst damage is there and I bet there will be many who would use it. Is there any combo which could deal 4d8 AoE damage in one turn on level 2?
The fire genasi is using his whole uses of burning hand for the day. Then the dragon born should also use his full uses for the day from his dragon breath...
Its just an example for how strong it is in the UA Version right now. Comparing two level 3 character don’t show how great the breath weapon is. The burning hands of the genasi will forever stay at a 1st level spell as the breath weapon scales.
Who gets an scaling AoE attack for free?
If we keep the comparison to the burning hands, we would kinda get a 3th or 4th level burning hands at level 17 for free for 6 times a day? Normally no martial class would get something this great. I know cantrips like produce flame are scaling but they are still single target...
Maybe you are right and it isn’t game breaking strong but still there is no race to be compared to the AoE damage of the dragon born.
Currently I am have a level 3 Black Dragonborn Fighter and the one thing I am stoke about is having the ability to do more than one breath weapon before a long rest. I was talking to my DM about ways we could homebrew a way to have more than one. Then he saw this and pointed it out to me and let me adjust my character to it! At that point all the other changes are just a bonus.
The real use for damage immunity is if you're in a party with multiple spellcasters who can bust out AoE spells of that damage type. Hurling Fireball, Cone of Cold, or Cloudkill is a lot easier when you've got an ally who's completely immune to the damage type acting as a decoy to draw enemies in.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This is more a valid criticism against genasi than it is the ua dragonborn.
After much thought increasing the damage die and the number of uses to prof bonus times may be a bit much at the high end, what do any of you who play high level campaigns think the 5d8 will stack up vs your encounters?
I currently have an active high-level campaign (16th-19th). I can guarantee that 5d8 AoE damage that you can use only proficiency-bonus amount of times each day will not break or unbalance any of my encounters. That breath weapon is basically nothing in comparison to prismatic spray or delayed blast fireball.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
5d8 is not a lot of damage at all.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Thank you both, my groups tend to like the build up and start of the lower levels and our groups normally top out around 8ish.
It is a lot for any martial class. How would a normal fighter ever deal this much damage with one attack action? And now imagine that you can as fighter use this several times in one round... no other race grants abilities to do something like that. There is nothing else that would give an fighter at level 17 six uses of an 5d8 AoE damage, which scales with your proficiency and constitution...
And also don’t compare a spell caster with the race, maybe it will be normal for spell caster to do this much damage with one attack but they only have one attack. Monks, paladins and fighter gets extra attacks things because they can’t do this much damage with one attack and need more attacks to do so...
Edit: Be prepared bbeg, I will use my action surge and replace the extra attacks all with my breath weapon. 30d8 doesn’t sound that bad.
idk if you can replace extra attacks but since it states that you can replace an attack, I would assume that.
I think it would be okay if you say you can only use one breath per turn.
And unless it's a Gem Dragonborn, the damage type is something that's commonly resisted by that point. And it's got a saving throw for half damage that's probably not going to be too difficult for a high-level, since it's tied to Constitution and a fighter will have a good Con but probably won't max it when they could instead be buying feats. Plus, it's an area of effect, yes, but it's not a huge area of effect. As was pointed out earlier in the thread you're probably not going to be catching more than two targets in side it unless they've really clustered together.
A fighter, monk, barbarian, ranger, or paladin dragonborn is getting a crowd control option that's nice but not really as earthshattering as you're making it sound.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.