Well, in several things of your last post I do agree. For example, contrary to what Ron Edwards thinks in his famous article "System Does Matter", a TTRPG needs all three perspectives. There is no game without the Gamist perspective. Without Narrativist perspective, it is a WarGame. And without Simulationist perspective, nothing makes sense.
And yes, it is also true that there is a strange wave of opinion within the hobby that despises the gamist perspective, even though that perspective is central to the game. It is even an elitist opinion, which considers players who focus on gamist aspects as inferior players. Almost like childish players. All of that is pure bullshit.
Now, what I do criticize about your opinion, at least as I understand it, is that you elevate the gamist aspects as the most important. That entirely depends on the game, and the experience it is trying to achieve. It is perfectly valid that for you the gamist aspects are the most important, but you cannot make this a universal law. That depends on the game and the player.
On the other hand, I do want to clarify one thing. The narrative is not something exclusive to the DM (or MC, or referee or storyteller, or whatever each game wants to call the player running the game). That is why narrativist games implement shared narration mechanics, or that allow direct influence on the development of the narrative (such as FATE points). Thus, a narrative game is not a novel, or a movie. Quite the contrary, they open up the narrative to all players. Even coming to games, like Follow, in which there is no one player who holds all the narrative power. Does that make the game better? It's just a different perspective, but it doesn't make it better or worse. Depends on what the playgroup is looking for.
Finally, and bring this back to D&D and the "halfs" issue, I really don't understand where the problem is that they don't have their own characteristics. Choose one of your relatives' races as a base, and give it the flavor of the other with feats, descriptions, your build, or whatever you want. In a point-buy system like the one you proposed, doing this is much easier. That's true. But nothing stops you from doing it with D&D's closed character creation system. The human, in fact, is ideal for that. Do you want a half-elf? Give your human the feat magic initiate to represent the innate magic of elves (for example). And then describe yourself how you want.
I may be misinterpreting what she's saying, but I feel the issue with the 'gamerist' perspective is that it is inherently dismissive of games with no choice in the narrative and feels like a cold slap in the face to anyone who DID get attatched to the characters/plot/world/etc despite the lack of any meaningful choice. I mean, think about it. You play a game like Xenoblade Chronicles (what I'm currently playing right now) and the plot is set in stone. There may be some minor differences in things like the exact skills, quests, and affinities but, in general, the plot and characters are set and the players 'choice' amounts to a few sparse sidequests with no actual impact on the plot overall. Yet people get involved with and connected to that story. Worse, this viewpoint effectively says that even a lazily written, shoddy, story with the most basic of morality systems or even just a few choices that has an impact on the ending (but are otherwise terrible) at least has the potential to be 'better' for no other reason than that it offers you the choice. You're taking all of that and going 'since you can't make a decision this game is no different from reading a book. Now THIS game, with an ending where you can choose between red, blue, or green lights, what an amazing choice that makes it the best story ever!'
And yet people are arguing their spleens out to retain the Super Hybrid stat blocks for the current mixed heritage critters, ne? Stat blocks with zero narrative impact whatsoever beyond bad fluff that will still apply even if one uses the new Origins blurb over the PHB stuff. Stat blocks that exist purely in, and for, the so-called "gamist" perspective everybody claims to hate with their whole hearts and want excised from D&D.
Why keep those stat blocks, if all one is interested in is the sweet fluffy narrative and all the rules and stats and other simmy, gamey junk are nothing but necessary evils at best? Is it, perhaps, that roo much narrative and not enough sim or game doesn't feel right? That it doesn't play well, and ends up with subpar games?
Nailing the balance is important. That balance can tilt some from table to table, but it doesn't tend to change drastically. Groups that truly hate the idea of "sim" or "game" and just want the DM to tell them a story don't stick with this ruleset. Not long term. They end up playing Fate or White Wolf or Overlight or any of the other games that try to excise all the "rules crap" D&D is seen as drowning itself in, and in the doing they lose sight of important things. It's one reason why those games have never overtaken D&D, even before 5e and the normalization of tabletop.
Again, though. The rules for these two not-species are bad. They're not egregiously awful, not "every last member of this entire sapient species is Always Chaotic Evil and the entire species is kill-on-sight free murder bait" bad. But they suggest and reinforce ideas some people would like to not have to deal with in their D&D anymore. Because the 'narrative' of those rules suggests things that send these folks to other games.
Because, at least to me, it's not about the stats? I honestly don't care if the stat block is just 'human with a few minor tweaks' and I don't know where you're getting this whole 'super hybrid' thing from. It's about the fact that half elves and half orcs have been part of D&D, as well as the larger fantasy roleplay culture, for a long time now and WotC rolling two of the most popular races (IIRC numbers 3 and 5) into a single generic option is backhanded, lazy, and disheartening and will only result in less people playing both. Heck, Pathfinder 2e has them as just sub-catagories of human and that's more than acceptable in my eyes cause it allows them to retain their distinctiveness.
"Retaining their distinctiveness" is exactly the problem. How many times must that be explained? You continue to say 'the generic rule is fine for weird combinations nobody likes, but these two deserve special exemptions because they just do", without ever seeming to realize that the special exemptions are the source of the entire problem.
Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'. They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream. They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.
Because, at least to me, it's not about the stats? I honestly don't care if the stat block is just 'human with a few minor tweaks' and I don't know where you're getting this whole 'super hybrid' thing from. It's about the fact that half elves and half orcs have been part of D&D, as well as the larger fantasy roleplay culture, for a long time now and WotC rolling two of the most popular races (IIRC numbers 3 and 5) into a single generic option is backhanded, lazy, and disheartening and will only result in less people playing both. Heck, Pathfinder 2e has them as just sub-catagories of human and that's more than acceptable in my eyes cause it allows them to retain their distinctiveness.
What exactly is in the PHB entry that was lost that actually mattered that can also be applied to all games and not just your game? What was lost that was so disheartening that it calls into question your desire to play them?
Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'. They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream. They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.
Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats. "They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else".
So, change the Half-Elf and Half-Orc lore/fluff.
What some of us want, including those who want to keep the HE and HO is to have a set of stats that is not wholly either parent, but something new. The new rules remove that option. Let us choose not only skin colour, eyes, and ears, but also choose or mix/match abilities from each parent race. Why not that?
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'. They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream. They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.
Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats.
No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.
Now you might not like how 1DD handles it, and that's fine. You might not want mechanically distinct Half Elves and Half Orcs to go away, and I'm honestly fine with that as well. Just don't tell me that it is not uncomfortable for people, because I'm telling you it is and it is not your place to tell me how I should feel or not.
I would understand if you acknowledged how it makes me and some others feel and don't think this is convincing enough of an argument for you to want to change the current system, but what I won't stand for is you trying to invalidate how I feel and reason with me that I shouldn't be feeling that way.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community. Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.
That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real". Care to keep shooting for more?
Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'. They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream. They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.
Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats. "They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else".
So, change the Half-Elf and Half-Orc lore/fluff.
What some of us want, including those who want to keep the HE and HO is to have a set of stats that is not wholly either parent, but something new. The new rules remove that option. Let us choose not only skin colour, eyes, and ears, but also choose or mix/match abilities from each parent race. Why not that?
Because someone will want their ardent/elf mixed to have ardent flight and teleportation or any other min/max thing people can come up with. I honestly think one possible fix is for WotC to allow this across the board and just let the min maxers have their fun, or to have half race 1st level feat that gives you part of that races features in a more balanced way.
Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals.
That's a very elegant way of putting it.
To be, uh, "fair" to the devil's advocates in the room, the same can be said of making race a game thing, in general. Or any other "nature over nurture," the-bloodline-is-what-matters take on character-building. However, it's quite acute (on the nose, even) with biracial characters.
Half-elf has the name "elf" in it, and Half-orc has the title "Orc" in it, this is why I prefer the term "ancestry". Because saying you are of "elvish ancestry" doesn't put an amount on it. You could be a "half-elf" and it would be accurate to say you have elvish ancestry. It would also be accurate to say you have human ancestry. Making it Ancestry instead of race just solves this whole argument. You could be 1/10th elf and STILL have elvish ancestry.
While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community. Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.
That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real". Care to keep shooting for more?
As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game. We also don't know the whole story as to why they deleted the account.
No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.
Stats are going to be involved no matter what. You can say that this is uncomfortable but your half elf is still getting racial bonuses from one of their parent races. Notably only one. You're making the statement that a half-elf, despite their ancestery, is no different from a human/elf.
While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community. Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.
That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real". Care to keep shooting for more?
As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game. We also don't know the whole story as to why they deleted the account.
No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.
Stats are going to be involved no matter what. You can say that this is uncomfortable but your half elf is still getting racial bonuses from one of their parent races. Notably only one. You're making the statement that a half-elf, despite their ancestery, is no different from a human/elf.
Wow, this is just displaying zero capacity for human empathy. We might not know why Dhauna left, but we can make a pretty good guess. Because see, they literally TOLD us they had experienced horror stories like that at tables and had to leave them because of it. But you shouldn't need them to tell you that much, because real living people have repeatedly said that these rules and lore make them extremely uncomfortable.
It's not just one single thread on a forum. It's a lifetime of experiences. It's knowing that they can't even find peace in their hobby. It's having the same arguments just for people to recognize their humanity over and over. You pretending that it is anything less is so belittling.
Multiple actual people have explained jn a hundred different ways that racist stereotypes cause real life harm to them. But you keep trying to tell them to get over it. That it could be worse. Meanwhile, you expect people to sympathize that you lost your beloved racism lore? You want WotC to put it back, force everyone to see it, even though you are still completely free to keep using it at your own table. You want to force real people to face further harmful stereotypes because you... liked playing them? You have to see that these two different concerns are not even close to being worth the same consideration. WotC made the right choice here.
The harder you dig in here, the more petty and uncaring you look. You probably aren't that kind of person. But right now we can't see it.
I mean this sincerely, please take some time to reflect on how you are coming across.
While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community. Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.
That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real". Care to keep shooting for more?
Oh no, that's who the deleted user is. That's sad.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals.
That's a very elegant way of putting it.
To be, uh, "fair" to the devil's advocates in the room, the same can be said of making race a game thing, in general. Or any other "nature over nurture," the-bloodline-is-what-matters take on character-building. However, it's quite acute (on the nose, even) with biracial characters.
Yes, that's true as well. Having races as mechanically distinct things at all is bioessentialist. It's not something I think is going to change, however, and it's also something I'm used to. None of that means it's good, mind you, just ... status quo.
While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community. Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.
That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real". Care to keep shooting for more?
As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game. We also don't know the whole story as to why they deleted the account.
Saying, "I shudder to think how they would feel if they ran into actually toxic people" isn't proving your own non-toxicity, just the relative levels of it. Also it sounds a lot like "Well I'll give you something to actually cry about."
No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.
Stats are going to be involved no matter what. You can say that this is uncomfortable but your half elf is still getting racial bonuses from one of their parent races. Notably only one. You're making the statement that a half-elf, despite their ancestery, is no different from a human/elf.
Nope, as I've already said before, holistically taking Background, Feat, and abilities into account give a fuller picture than just hyper focusing on special abilities. And again I am also telling you that the way it is handled in 1DD feels much more like they're treating multiracial people as people first and stats second. Like I said before, separating out specifically half elves and half orcs to give distinct mechanical differences is precisely the uncomfortable thing. The way 1DD handles multiracial people feels much more comfortable and it was surprising.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community. Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.
That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real". Care to keep shooting for more?
As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game.
Multiple actual people have explained jn a hundred different ways that racist stereotypes cause real life harm to them. But you keep trying to tell them to get over it.
You're right. Every comment has accomplished nothing, save to amplify Snowtworf's voice on this matter. You don't have to convince everyone to agree. Let this one go. It's literally one user.
I'd like to float the idea that maybe nobody here is going to get the definitive final blow. There won't be any single post that everyone can look at and say, "ah, yes. The argument is over."
Or rather, if there is, it won't be for the quality of the argument therein, it'll be because it's a mod having to shut things down for getting too heated.
The person who got the last comment before that happens isn't the winner.
Yeah, I do recall your warning (above) over 3 weeks ago...
I sometimes wish I'd never read this thread. It's not been a great first exposure to the forums. I kept my first post in it short, but I felt the need to say something in support of the people who weren't being heard about their real pain. I later tried to explain things clearly but it was largely ignored. That's fine. Today I'd had enough and let it show. This topic is extremely personal to me and it is hard to look away.
But I've said all I wanted, and more. I'm sorry if I misunderstood anyone or caused further trouble. You're right, no single post is going to create a sudden flash of understanding and agreement. The internet is not made for that. This won't be the last post in this thread I'm sure, but it will be the last one for me. I'll just leave knowing that a majority of people in this thread have shown their compassion is strong for others, and that is encouraging. Sending y'all my love.
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Well, in several things of your last post I do agree. For example, contrary to what Ron Edwards thinks in his famous article "System Does Matter", a TTRPG needs all three perspectives. There is no game without the Gamist perspective. Without Narrativist perspective, it is a WarGame. And without Simulationist perspective, nothing makes sense.
And yes, it is also true that there is a strange wave of opinion within the hobby that despises the gamist perspective, even though that perspective is central to the game. It is even an elitist opinion, which considers players who focus on gamist aspects as inferior players. Almost like childish players. All of that is pure bullshit.
Now, what I do criticize about your opinion, at least as I understand it, is that you elevate the gamist aspects as the most important. That entirely depends on the game, and the experience it is trying to achieve. It is perfectly valid that for you the gamist aspects are the most important, but you cannot make this a universal law. That depends on the game and the player.
On the other hand, I do want to clarify one thing. The narrative is not something exclusive to the DM (or MC, or referee or storyteller, or whatever each game wants to call the player running the game). That is why narrativist games implement shared narration mechanics, or that allow direct influence on the development of the narrative (such as FATE points). Thus, a narrative game is not a novel, or a movie. Quite the contrary, they open up the narrative to all players. Even coming to games, like Follow, in which there is no one player who holds all the narrative power. Does that make the game better? It's just a different perspective, but it doesn't make it better or worse. Depends on what the playgroup is looking for.
Finally, and bring this back to D&D and the "halfs" issue, I really don't understand where the problem is that they don't have their own characteristics. Choose one of your relatives' races as a base, and give it the flavor of the other with feats, descriptions, your build, or whatever you want. In a point-buy system like the one you proposed, doing this is much easier. That's true. But nothing stops you from doing it with D&D's closed character creation system. The human, in fact, is ideal for that. Do you want a half-elf? Give your human the feat magic initiate to represent the innate magic of elves (for example). And then describe yourself how you want.
I may be misinterpreting what she's saying, but I feel the issue with the 'gamerist' perspective is that it is inherently dismissive of games with no choice in the narrative and feels like a cold slap in the face to anyone who DID get attatched to the characters/plot/world/etc despite the lack of any meaningful choice. I mean, think about it. You play a game like Xenoblade Chronicles (what I'm currently playing right now) and the plot is set in stone. There may be some minor differences in things like the exact skills, quests, and affinities but, in general, the plot and characters are set and the players 'choice' amounts to a few sparse sidequests with no actual impact on the plot overall. Yet people get involved with and connected to that story. Worse, this viewpoint effectively says that even a lazily written, shoddy, story with the most basic of morality systems or even just a few choices that has an impact on the ending (but are otherwise terrible) at least has the potential to be 'better' for no other reason than that it offers you the choice. You're taking all of that and going 'since you can't make a decision this game is no different from reading a book. Now THIS game, with an ending where you can choose between red, blue, or green lights, what an amazing choice that makes it the best story ever!'
And yet people are arguing their spleens out to retain the Super Hybrid stat blocks for the current mixed heritage critters, ne? Stat blocks with zero narrative impact whatsoever beyond bad fluff that will still apply even if one uses the new Origins blurb over the PHB stuff. Stat blocks that exist purely in, and for, the so-called "gamist" perspective everybody claims to hate with their whole hearts and want excised from D&D.
Why keep those stat blocks, if all one is interested in is the sweet fluffy narrative and all the rules and stats and other simmy, gamey junk are nothing but necessary evils at best? Is it, perhaps, that roo much narrative and not enough sim or game doesn't feel right? That it doesn't play well, and ends up with subpar games?
Nailing the balance is important. That balance can tilt some from table to table, but it doesn't tend to change drastically. Groups that truly hate the idea of "sim" or "game" and just want the DM to tell them a story don't stick with this ruleset. Not long term. They end up playing Fate or White Wolf or Overlight or any of the other games that try to excise all the "rules crap" D&D is seen as drowning itself in, and in the doing they lose sight of important things. It's one reason why those games have never overtaken D&D, even before 5e and the normalization of tabletop.
Again, though. The rules for these two not-species are bad. They're not egregiously awful, not "every last member of this entire sapient species is Always Chaotic Evil and the entire species is kill-on-sight free murder bait" bad. But they suggest and reinforce ideas some people would like to not have to deal with in their D&D anymore. Because the 'narrative' of those rules suggests things that send these folks to other games.
Please do not contact or message me.
Because, at least to me, it's not about the stats? I honestly don't care if the stat block is just 'human with a few minor tweaks' and I don't know where you're getting this whole 'super hybrid' thing from. It's about the fact that half elves and half orcs have been part of D&D, as well as the larger fantasy roleplay culture, for a long time now and WotC rolling two of the most popular races (IIRC numbers 3 and 5) into a single generic option is backhanded, lazy, and disheartening and will only result in less people playing both. Heck, Pathfinder 2e has them as just sub-catagories of human and that's more than acceptable in my eyes cause it allows them to retain their distinctiveness.
"Retaining their distinctiveness" is exactly the problem. How many times must that be explained? You continue to say 'the generic rule is fine for weird combinations nobody likes, but these two deserve special exemptions because they just do", without ever seeming to realize that the special exemptions are the source of the entire problem.
Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'. They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream. They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.
Dream with us, Snow.
Please do not contact or message me.
What exactly is in the PHB entry that was lost that actually mattered that can also be applied to all games and not just your game? What was lost that was so disheartening that it calls into question your desire to play them?
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Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats. "They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else".
So, change the Half-Elf and Half-Orc lore/fluff.
What some of us want, including those who want to keep the HE and HO is to have a set of stats that is not wholly either parent, but something new. The new rules remove that option. Let us choose not only skin colour, eyes, and ears, but also choose or mix/match abilities from each parent race. Why not that?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.
Now you might not like how 1DD handles it, and that's fine. You might not want mechanically distinct Half Elves and Half Orcs to go away, and I'm honestly fine with that as well. Just don't tell me that it is not uncomfortable for people, because I'm telling you it is and it is not your place to tell me how I should feel or not.
I would understand if you acknowledged how it makes me and some others feel and don't think this is convincing enough of an argument for you to want to change the current system, but what I won't stand for is you trying to invalidate how I feel and reason with me that I shouldn't be feeling that way.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community. Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.
That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real". Care to keep shooting for more?
Please do not contact or message me.
Because someone will want their ardent/elf mixed to have ardent flight and teleportation or any other min/max thing people can come up with. I honestly think one possible fix is for WotC to allow this across the board and just let the min maxers have their fun, or to have half race 1st level feat that gives you part of that races features in a more balanced way.
That's a very elegant way of putting it.
To be, uh, "fair" to the devil's advocates in the room, the same can be said of making race a game thing, in general. Or any other "nature over nurture," the-bloodline-is-what-matters take on character-building. However, it's quite acute (on the nose, even) with biracial characters.
Half-elf has the name "elf" in it, and Half-orc has the title "Orc" in it, this is why I prefer the term "ancestry". Because saying you are of "elvish ancestry" doesn't put an amount on it. You could be a "half-elf" and it would be accurate to say you have elvish ancestry. It would also be accurate to say you have human ancestry. Making it Ancestry instead of race just solves this whole argument. You could be 1/10th elf and STILL have elvish ancestry.
As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game. We also don't know the whole story as to why they deleted the account.
Stats are going to be involved no matter what. You can say that this is uncomfortable but your half elf is still getting racial bonuses from one of their parent races. Notably only one. You're making the statement that a half-elf, despite their ancestery, is no different from a human/elf.
Wow, this is just displaying zero capacity for human empathy. We might not know why Dhauna left, but we can make a pretty good guess. Because see, they literally TOLD us they had experienced horror stories like that at tables and had to leave them because of it. But you shouldn't need them to tell you that much, because real living people have repeatedly said that these rules and lore make them extremely uncomfortable.
It's not just one single thread on a forum. It's a lifetime of experiences. It's knowing that they can't even find peace in their hobby. It's having the same arguments just for people to recognize their humanity over and over. You pretending that it is anything less is so belittling.
Multiple actual people have explained jn a hundred different ways that racist stereotypes cause real life harm to them. But you keep trying to tell them to get over it. That it could be worse. Meanwhile, you expect people to sympathize that you lost your beloved racism lore? You want WotC to put it back, force everyone to see it, even though you are still completely free to keep using it at your own table. You want to force real people to face further harmful stereotypes because you... liked playing them? You have to see that these two different concerns are not even close to being worth the same consideration. WotC made the right choice here.
The harder you dig in here, the more petty and uncaring you look. You probably aren't that kind of person. But right now we can't see it.
I mean this sincerely, please take some time to reflect on how you are coming across.
I can live with creating an Elf and saying it looks human(ish) due to parents and calling it a half-elf.
I will miss +1/+1/+2 to stats.
Oh no, that's who the deleted user is. That's sad.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yes, that's true as well. Having races as mechanically distinct things at all is bioessentialist. It's not something I think is going to change, however, and it's also something I'm used to. None of that means it's good, mind you, just ... status quo.
Saying, "I shudder to think how they would feel if they ran into actually toxic people" isn't proving your own non-toxicity, just the relative levels of it. Also it sounds a lot like "Well I'll give you something to actually cry about."
Nope, as I've already said before, holistically taking Background, Feat, and abilities into account give a fuller picture than just hyper focusing on special abilities. And again I am also telling you that the way it is handled in 1DD feels much more like they're treating multiracial people as people first and stats second. Like I said before, separating out specifically half elves and half orcs to give distinct mechanical differences is precisely the uncomfortable thing. The way 1DD handles multiracial people feels much more comfortable and it was surprising.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
"When"?
You're right. Every comment has accomplished nothing, save to amplify Snowtworf's voice on this matter. You don't have to convince everyone to agree. Let this one go. It's literally one user.
Yeah, I do recall your warning (above) over 3 weeks ago...
I sometimes wish I'd never read this thread. It's not been a great first exposure to the forums. I kept my first post in it short, but I felt the need to say something in support of the people who weren't being heard about their real pain. I later tried to explain things clearly but it was largely ignored. That's fine. Today I'd had enough and let it show. This topic is extremely personal to me and it is hard to look away.
But I've said all I wanted, and more. I'm sorry if I misunderstood anyone or caused further trouble. You're right, no single post is going to create a sudden flash of understanding and agreement. The internet is not made for that. This won't be the last post in this thread I'm sure, but it will be the last one for me. I'll just leave knowing that a majority of people in this thread have shown their compassion is strong for others, and that is encouraging. Sending y'all my love.