While I am not a fan of it so far all we have seen are previously known spell casters. It is distinctly possible that classes that previously were prepared spell casters may have more flexibility. T
This type of prepping/spellcasting completly ****s over the Warlock if this also somehow would be applied to it
Unless Pact Magic will work differently...
Maybe, the preparation progression would presumably go past 9th character level and if more spells get redesigned so a warlocks built in upcasting is a more useful feature it may not screw them over too much. My main hope is they build warlocks is being able to upcast to 9th level even if their pact magic spell selection stops at 5th level spells, still get secrets but they will be able to upcast spells to 9th level(also hopefully upcast secrets). A fireball upcast to 9th level will suck in comparison to a real 9th level spell but there are a lot of key spells that get a fun benefit right after 5th,(major image, summon spells 3rd attack etc)or the spell really loses its luster at higher levels and they are just kind of stuck, and while a 5th level fireball sucks at those levels and 9th isn't much better it is at least something
This type of prepping/spellcasting completly ****s over the Warlock if this also somehow would be applied to it
Unless Pact Magic will work differently...
Maybe, the preparation progression would presumably go past 9th character level and if more spells get redesigned so a warlocks built in upcasting is a more useful feature it may not screw them over too much. My main hope is they build warlocks is being able to upcast to 9th level even if their pact magic spell selection stops at 5th level spells, still get secrets but they will be able to upcast spells to 9th level(also hopefully upcast secrets). A fireball upcast to 9th level will suck in comparison to a real 9th level spell but there are a lot of key spells that get a fun benefit right after 5th,(major image, summon spells 3rd attack etc)or the spell really loses its luster at higher levels and they are just kind of stuck, and while a 5th level fireball sucks at those levels and 9th isn't much better it is at least something
9th level Armor of Agathys. 45 temporary hit points, and every time you're hit in melee, as long as you have these hit points, the attacker gets 45 frost damage.
What I don't care much for is that there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for your main stat...other than spell DC and attack I am guessing. It would be cool if your main stat added more spells or did something else.
I really prefer the previous method. It was a much more elegant solution and preparing multiple high level spells when you could only use one should be allowed. If this is trying to address the caster martial divide, I feel the better solution is to give martials more tools and options than to take away from casters.
I really prefer the previous method. It was a much more elegant solution and preparing multiple high level spells when you could only use one should be allowed. If this is trying to address the caster martial divide, I feel the better solution is to give martials more tools and options than to take away from casters.
I think there's just a point in which we have to take away from casters at times. People scream about buffing martials but with all the crazy power casters have you have to nerf casters in some way too. Unless the martial classes are revised down to the core rules of making attacks themselves, they'll be nowhere near the power we have casters at
I really prefer the previous method. It was a much more elegant solution and preparing multiple high level spells when you could only use one should be allowed. If this is trying to address the caster martial divide, I feel the better solution is to give martials more tools and options than to take away from casters.
I think there's just a point in which we have to take away from casters at times. People scream about buffing martials but with all the crazy power casters have you have to nerf casters in some way too. Unless the martial classes are revised down to the core rules of making attacks themselves, they'll be nowhere near the power we have casters at
Exactly. For years, pretty much everyone has been saying casters are too powerful. Well, this is what it looks like when you rein them in.
It actually feels like a step back towards Vancian casting. Not all the way, but a bit. Maybe enough to help even things out more. And in practice, while many people walk around with Swiss army style spells prepped for every situation, really, don’t they end up just using the same handful every day? Maybe not, could just be my group that feels like that’s what happens. And I think it will be more interesting to make people think harder about what they prepare based on what they expect to happen for a given day.
I mean, is this even a nerf to casters, or is it just inconvenient? It's not like Vancian casting prevented casters from being too powerful in 3.X.
It's def a nerf. High level spells are not linearly, but exponentially stronger than low level spells. Thus, preparing higher level spells, even with less slots, is typically more optimal!
Everyone is jumping to conclusions. We have no clue how mages spell casting will work in the first UA for them. They are likely to all be different from this and each other. Wizards always have a book making them different. Warlocks are confirmed to have pact magic which will be different. This is an improvement for Bards. You aren’t locked in anymore and gain versatility and some auto prepared healing.
Everyone is jumping to conclusions. We have no clue how mages spell casting will work in the first UA for them. They are likely to all be different from this and each other. Wizards always have a book making them different. Warlocks are confirmed to have pact magic which will be different. This is an improvement for Bards. You aren’t locked in anymore and gain versatility and some auto prepared healing.
I guess, but also we have a lot of evidence suggesting that this is generally how mages will work. You can make informed guesses without "jumping to conclusions."
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Everyone is jumping to conclusions. We have no clue how mages spell casting will work in the first UA for them. They are likely to all be different from this and each other. Wizards always have a book making them different. Warlocks are confirmed to have pact magic which will be different. This is an improvement for Bards. You aren’t locked in anymore and gain versatility and some auto prepared healing.
I guess, but also we have a lot of evidence suggesting that this is generally how mages will work. You can make informed guesses without "jumping to conclusions."
Hmm we have one UA that doesn’t include them. I shouldn’t have used “everyone,” but most of the post I read complained as if they knew all spellcasters were being nerfed since they can’t prepare multiple high level spells. We don’t have enough information to make an informed guess. All we know is they want to move all spellcasters to a spells prepared style. Wizards will function slightly differently because a spell book is a staple of the class. Warlocks will function differently because pact Magic has been confirmed. That’s all I’m saying. Those previous post are definitely jumping to conclusions. I’m also realizing since I didn’t quote anyone in my last post you might have read my post as a stand-alone and thought I meant something vastly different.
I really prefer the previous method. It was a much more elegant solution and preparing multiple high level spells when you could only use one should be allowed. If this is trying to address the caster martial divide, I feel the better solution is to give martials more tools and options than to take away from casters.
I think there's just a point in which we have to take away from casters at times. People scream about buffing martials but with all the crazy power casters have you have to nerf casters in some way too. Unless the martial classes are revised down to the core rules of making attacks themselves, they'll be nowhere near the power we have casters at
The main thing that makes casters more powerful is their versatility and ability to interact with all the pillars of play with their magic, as well as how people seem to want to constrict martials more to reality while being fine with magic doing whatever.
Closing the gap doesn't require revising attacks in the core rules. It needs martials to be given more tools and options.
Furthermore, a huge fun of high level spellcasting is some of the non combat spells like Magnificent Mansion. If you can only prepare one of each of the high level spells, then people are likely going to stop using those fun utility spells as during the interview Jeremy Crawford noted that with known spells casters, people were focused on picking combat spells due to being worried about the efficiency of their spell choices. That's why bards were changed to prepared casters (though imo, bards didn't have the issue described, sorcerers did). However this changed to how spells are prepared runs completely counterintuitive to that. If what Jeremy Crawford said is true, people will just prepare the combat high level spells and ignore the utility and under the current design, that would actually make casters encroach even more on the pillar that martials perform the best in and whille actually make the gap look even wider.
People are going to be upset at any character getting worse in any conceivable way, but it's all just noise. Casters need a few nerfs.
Or just buff martials up to the level of casters. The issue is that people don't seem to want to let martials stray too far from the realm of realism with pure physical ability. There is always a kick back when things become too "anime" in terms of a martial's ability.
Is it limited to each number of slots specific to that level? i.e. 4 Level 1 slots, 3 Level 2 slots, you can only have 4 level 1 spells prepared and 3 level 2. OR 4 Level 1 slots, 3 Level 2 slots, you can have 7 spells prepared?
Is it limited to each number of slots specific to that level? i.e. 4 Level 1 slots, 3 Level 2 slots, you can only have 4 level 1 spells prepared and 3 level 2. OR 4 Level 1 slots, 3 Level 2 slots, you can have 7 spells prepared?
Yes, with 4 1st level slots, you get 4 1st level spells. With 2 2nd, it's 2 2nd level spells to prepare, etc
Meh, I'm still going to oppose this change in my feedback. It makes the experience of playing a caster less fun without really doing anything to make playing martials more fun. 3e was the worst edition for martials by far and this change still allows more versatility than 3e casters had, so this won't help make martials happy. It's just an inconvenience for no tangible benefit.
Martials need fun things to do with their action economy that isn't just "moar dammij". Rogues can sacrifice a number of sneak attack dice to attempt maneuvers, barbarians can spend rounds of Rage to attempt maneuvers, monks have ki, and so on. If paladins can spend spell slots to gain damage with Smite, then martials should be able to sacrifice damage to gain versatile spell-like effects.
I have not played it yet, but as bards are my favorite class and I have been playing them for years, I encourage everyone to give the UA a shot rather than just discuss it from only a theoretical standpoint. Keep in mind that this is part of a new system that all the other classes will also operate in and will be balanced for that new system. I am looking forward to it. Especially with magical secrets getting swapped every long rest.
I have not played it yet, but as bards are my favorite class and I have been playing them for years, I encourage everyone to give the UA a shot rather than just discuss it from only a theoretical standpoint. Keep in mind that this is part of a new system that all the other classes will also operate in and will be balanced for that new system. I am looking forward to it. Especially with magical secrets getting swapped every long rest.
Neat theory but im playtesting it with things that are not balanced for that new system so its kind of hard to judge if its balanced or not.
Given that I'm pretty much in the boat of only playing Elf Warlocks, I like what they've done with Elves, but I want to know what they're planning with Warlocks.
Being able to pick spells each day is good, and given that we see both Bard and Ranger with that feature we can assume it'll be the norm going forwards, but Warlocks currently only get four spell slots, up to level 5, while having full spell progression, up to level 5.
If they're made into regular casters it would take away some of their flavor. I assume that, like Ranger and Paladin, Hexblade will be an honorary "Warrior" for feat selection, although there's nothing in the warrior feats seen so far that I'd really want to play. The new Lightly Armored feat will be the one taken most often by any non-Hexblade Warlocks. Very nice for Celestials.
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While I am not a fan of it so far all we have seen are previously known spell casters. It is distinctly possible that classes that previously were prepared spell casters may have more flexibility. T
Maybe, the preparation progression would presumably go past 9th character level and if more spells get redesigned so a warlocks built in upcasting is a more useful feature it may not screw them over too much. My main hope is they build warlocks is being able to upcast to 9th level even if their pact magic spell selection stops at 5th level spells, still get secrets but they will be able to upcast spells to 9th level(also hopefully upcast secrets). A fireball upcast to 9th level will suck in comparison to a real 9th level spell but there are a lot of key spells that get a fun benefit right after 5th,(major image, summon spells 3rd attack etc)or the spell really loses its luster at higher levels and they are just kind of stuck, and while a 5th level fireball sucks at those levels and 9th isn't much better it is at least something
9th level Armor of Agathys. 45 temporary hit points, and every time you're hit in melee, as long as you have these hit points, the attacker gets 45 frost damage.
What I don't care much for is that there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for your main stat...other than spell DC and attack I am guessing. It would be cool if your main stat added more spells or did something else.
I really prefer the previous method. It was a much more elegant solution and preparing multiple high level spells when you could only use one should be allowed. If this is trying to address the caster martial divide, I feel the better solution is to give martials more tools and options than to take away from casters.
I think there's just a point in which we have to take away from casters at times. People scream about buffing martials but with all the crazy power casters have you have to nerf casters in some way too. Unless the martial classes are revised down to the core rules of making attacks themselves, they'll be nowhere near the power we have casters at
Exactly.
For years, pretty much everyone has been saying casters are too powerful. Well, this is what it looks like when you rein them in.
It actually feels like a step back towards Vancian casting. Not all the way, but a bit. Maybe enough to help even things out more.
And in practice, while many people walk around with Swiss army style spells prepped for every situation, really, don’t they end up just using the same handful every day? Maybe not, could just be my group that feels like that’s what happens.
And I think it will be more interesting to make people think harder about what they prepare based on what they expect to happen for a given day.
I mean, is this even a nerf to casters, or is it just inconvenient? It's not like Vancian casting prevented casters from being too powerful in 3.X.
It's def a nerf.
High level spells are not linearly, but exponentially stronger than low level spells. Thus, preparing higher level spells, even with less slots, is typically more optimal!
Everyone is jumping to conclusions. We have no clue how mages spell casting will work in the first UA for them. They are likely to all be different from this and each other. Wizards always have a book making them different. Warlocks are confirmed to have pact magic which will be different. This is an improvement for Bards. You aren’t locked in anymore and gain versatility and some auto prepared healing.
I guess, but also we have a lot of evidence suggesting that this is generally how mages will work. You can make informed guesses without "jumping to conclusions."
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Hmm we have one UA that doesn’t include them. I shouldn’t have used “everyone,” but most of the post I read complained as if they knew all spellcasters were being nerfed since they can’t prepare multiple high level spells. We don’t have enough information to make an informed guess. All we know is they want to move all spellcasters to a spells prepared style. Wizards will function slightly differently because a spell book is a staple of the class. Warlocks will function differently because pact Magic has been confirmed. That’s all I’m saying. Those previous post are definitely jumping to conclusions. I’m also realizing since I didn’t quote anyone in my last post you might have read my post as a stand-alone and thought I meant something vastly different.
People are going to be upset at any character getting worse in any conceivable way, but it's all just noise. Casters need a few nerfs.
The main thing that makes casters more powerful is their versatility and ability to interact with all the pillars of play with their magic, as well as how people seem to want to constrict martials more to reality while being fine with magic doing whatever.
Closing the gap doesn't require revising attacks in the core rules. It needs martials to be given more tools and options.
Furthermore, a huge fun of high level spellcasting is some of the non combat spells like Magnificent Mansion. If you can only prepare one of each of the high level spells, then people are likely going to stop using those fun utility spells as during the interview Jeremy Crawford noted that with known spells casters, people were focused on picking combat spells due to being worried about the efficiency of their spell choices. That's why bards were changed to prepared casters (though imo, bards didn't have the issue described, sorcerers did). However this changed to how spells are prepared runs completely counterintuitive to that. If what Jeremy Crawford said is true, people will just prepare the combat high level spells and ignore the utility and under the current design, that would actually make casters encroach even more on the pillar that martials perform the best in and whille actually make the gap look even wider.
Or just buff martials up to the level of casters. The issue is that people don't seem to want to let martials stray too far from the realm of realism with pure physical ability. There is always a kick back when things become too "anime" in terms of a martial's ability.
Is it limited to each number of slots specific to that level?
i.e. 4 Level 1 slots, 3 Level 2 slots, you can only have 4 level 1 spells prepared and 3 level 2.
OR
4 Level 1 slots, 3 Level 2 slots, you can have 7 spells prepared?
Yes, with 4 1st level slots, you get 4 1st level spells. With 2 2nd, it's 2 2nd level spells to prepare, etc
Meh, I'm still going to oppose this change in my feedback. It makes the experience of playing a caster less fun without really doing anything to make playing martials more fun. 3e was the worst edition for martials by far and this change still allows more versatility than 3e casters had, so this won't help make martials happy. It's just an inconvenience for no tangible benefit.
Martials need fun things to do with their action economy that isn't just "moar dammij". Rogues can sacrifice a number of sneak attack dice to attempt maneuvers, barbarians can spend rounds of Rage to attempt maneuvers, monks have ki, and so on. If paladins can spend spell slots to gain damage with Smite, then martials should be able to sacrifice damage to gain versatile spell-like effects.
Bit of a tangent there... apologies
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I have not played it yet, but as bards are my favorite class and I have been playing them for years, I encourage everyone to give the UA a shot rather than just discuss it from only a theoretical standpoint. Keep in mind that this is part of a new system that all the other classes will also operate in and will be balanced for that new system. I am looking forward to it. Especially with magical secrets getting swapped every long rest.
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Neat theory but im playtesting it with things that are not balanced for that new system so its kind of hard to judge if its balanced or not.
Given that I'm pretty much in the boat of only playing Elf Warlocks, I like what they've done with Elves, but I want to know what they're planning with Warlocks.
Being able to pick spells each day is good, and given that we see both Bard and Ranger with that feature we can assume it'll be the norm going forwards, but Warlocks currently only get four spell slots, up to level 5, while having full spell progression, up to level 5.
If they're made into regular casters it would take away some of their flavor. I assume that, like Ranger and Paladin, Hexblade will be an honorary "Warrior" for feat selection, although there's nothing in the warrior feats seen so far that I'd really want to play. The new Lightly Armored feat will be the one taken most often by any non-Hexblade Warlocks. Very nice for Celestials.