I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
How about splitting the difference? A Cleric *can* prepare spells for regular fast casting in combat/etc. but *Clerics* specifically can cast all 'known' spells as Rituals during which they are spending most of the time praying to their diety/dieties/whatever for the spell. Call it 'Ceremonial Casting'.
I actually really like this idea. I've been thinking for awhile now about ways that a class might be able to cast more spells as rituals. I think this is a perfect fit for it. To maintain balance, you could say the Ceremonial Casting still uses the spell slot. It just lets you use any spell you didn't prepare by spending more time praying. It's really thematic and wouldn't be too powerful. It would just let Clerics actually help people in need that they weren't expecting.
I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
How about splitting the difference? A Cleric *can* prepare spells for regular fast casting in combat/etc. but *Clerics* specifically can cast all 'known' spells as Rituals during which they are spending most of the time praying to their diety/dieties/whatever for the spell. Call it 'Ceremonial Casting'.
I actually really like this idea. I've been thinking for awhile now about ways that a class might be able to cast more spells as rituals. I think this is a perfect fit for it. To maintain balance, you could say the Ceremonial Casting still uses the spell slot. It just lets you use any spell you didn't prepare by spending more time praying. It's really thematic and wouldn't be too powerful. It would just let Clerics actually help people in need that they weren't expecting.
Honestly, I would love this to replace divine intervention at 11. And have divine intervention at 18 as it is. So essentially 18 becomes once per 2d4 days you can do so without spending a spell slot or the extra time praying to your god.
I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
And while we're at it, spell slots are too limiting for divine power. Imagine saying "Sorry, my god would love to help you, but I'm out of spell slots". Ridiculous, isn't it? I mean, yeah, even more versatility and less thinking in managing their power is exactly what casters need, especially a class as weak as cleric.
I'll have to stop now or my sarcasmometer will explode.
I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
And while we're at it, spell slots are too limiting for divine power. Imagine saying "Sorry, my god would love to help you, but I'm out of spell slots". Ridiculous, isn't it? I mean, yeah, even more versatility and less thinking in managing their power is exactly what casters need, especially a class as weak as cleric.
I'll have to stop now or my sarcasmometer will explode.
Haha. Well, I was specifically referring to a change that could get more Clerics to spend their slots on spells like Purify Food and Water, Augury, Calm Emotions, Protection from Poison, and other spells like them. Ones that get left behind for Bless, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians all the time. Because with prepared spells, players tend to take the ones they are sure they will use, at the expense of one's that can be more flavorful but situational.
Those OP Clerics would actually be spending slots on 'weaker' spells if they could access them. It might reduce their relative combat power overall, rather than increase it. And we might see some better variety in spells used in a day. The Divine list doesn't have the Swiss army knife toolbox that Wizards have. They won't be solving every problem with Lesser Restoration. It just might actually get used. And requiring them to take 10 minutes (using Fhaolan's suggestion) means it won't be granting advantages in combat.
I think it would work pretty well for its purpose. The rule is intended to fix an issue I perceive in the game. The RP justification comes later. It just happens to feel right too. But hey, it is important to make sure no new rule goes too far and has uninteresting consequences. So I'll gladly take the sarcasm. :)
I could see maybe allowing clerics to ritual cast spells they don’t have prepared if the spell has the ritual tag. Maybe on a limited basis, but I really haven’t looked at the new divine list for rituals so maybe unlimited might be ok. But is pretty powerful.
Haha. Well, I was specifically referring to a change that could get more Clerics to spend their slots on spells like Purify Food and Water, Augury, Calm Emotions, Protection from Poison, and other spells like them. Ones that get left behind for Bless, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians all the time. Because with prepared spells, players tend to take the ones they are sure they will use, at the expense of one's that can be more flavorful but situational.
Those OP Clerics would actually be spending slots on 'weaker' spells if they could access them. It might reduce their relative combat power overall, rather than increase it. And we might see some better variety in spells used in a day. The Divine list doesn't have the Swiss army knife toolbox that Wizards have. They won't be solving every problem with Lesser Restoration. It just might actually get used. And requiring them to take 10 minutes (using Fhaolan's suggestion) means it won't be granting advantages in combat.
I think it would work pretty well for its purpose. The rule is intended to fix an issue I perceive in the game. The RP justification comes later. It just happens to feel right too. But hey, it is important to make sure no new rule goes too far and has uninteresting consequences. So I'll gladly take the sarcasm. :)
I always considered clerics and druids to be the luckiest and laziest spellcasters. They don't have to choose which spells they know, like bards, sorcerers, and warlocks, they don't have to hunt spell scrolls like wizards. They just know all their spells form the start! Most other spellcasters have to plan their known spells for their entire lifetime ahead, clerics and druids have to plan just for an upcoming day! Frankly, saying that even this isn't enough is like hearing a bourgeois complaining about insufficient amount of options within flavors of caviar to a proletarian that doesn't always have bread on their plate. Divine spell list (why does my mind always want me to write "divine playlist"?) isn't as versatile as arcane, sure, but it has plenty going on as it is with all the spells for searching stuff and scrying in various ways, providing nutrition, and talking to people.
Haha. Well, I was specifically referring to a change that could get more Clerics to spend their slots on spells like Purify Food and Water, Augury, Calm Emotions, Protection from Poison, and other spells like them. Ones that get left behind for Bless, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians all the time. Because with prepared spells, players tend to take the ones they are sure they will use, at the expense of one's that can be more flavorful but situational.
Those OP Clerics would actually be spending slots on 'weaker' spells if they could access them. It might reduce their relative combat power overall, rather than increase it. And we might see some better variety in spells used in a day. The Divine list doesn't have the Swiss army knife toolbox that Wizards have. They won't be solving every problem with Lesser Restoration. It just might actually get used. And requiring them to take 10 minutes (using Fhaolan's suggestion) means it won't be granting advantages in combat.
I think it would work pretty well for its purpose. The rule is intended to fix an issue I perceive in the game. The RP justification comes later. It just happens to feel right too. But hey, it is important to make sure no new rule goes too far and has uninteresting consequences. So I'll gladly take the sarcasm. :)
I always considered clerics and druids to be the luckiest and laziest spellcasters. They don't have to choose which spells they know, like bards, sorcerers, and warlocks, they don't have to hunt spell scrolls like wizards. They just know all their spells form the start! Most other spellcasters have to plan their known spells for their entire lifetime ahead, clerics and druids have to plan just for an upcoming day! Frankly, saying that even this isn't enough is like hearing a bourgeois complaining about insufficient amount of options within flavors of caviar to a proletarian that doesn't always have bread on their plate. Divine spell list (why does my mind always want me to write "divine playlist"?) isn't as versatile as arcane, sure, but it has plenty going on as it is with all the spells for searching stuff and scrying in various ways, providing nutrition, and talking to people.
It is looking like everyone is like that in one though. The bard probably has a bigger list than the cleric now and they know them all and prepare them just like them.
Since discussions seem to be going in a similar direction, I would like to bring up this thread discussing allowing spellcasters less restricted access to their spell lists. Hardly any point in repeating what's already been said, after all.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Since discussions seem to be going in a similar direction, I would like to bring up this thread discussing allowing spellcasters less restricted access to their spell lists. Hardly any point in repeating what's already been said, after all.
Haha. Well, I was specifically referring to a change that could get more Clerics to spend their slots on spells like Purify Food and Water, Augury, Calm Emotions, Protection from Poison, and other spells like them. Ones that get left behind for Bless, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians all the time. Because with prepared spells, players tend to take the ones they are sure they will use, at the expense of one's that can be more flavorful but situational.
Those OP Clerics would actually be spending slots on 'weaker' spells if they could access them. It might reduce their relative combat power overall, rather than increase it. And we might see some better variety in spells used in a day. The Divine list doesn't have the Swiss army knife toolbox that Wizards have. They won't be solving every problem with Lesser Restoration. It just might actually get used. And requiring them to take 10 minutes (using Fhaolan's suggestion) means it won't be granting advantages in combat.
I think it would work pretty well for its purpose. The rule is intended to fix an issue I perceive in the game. The RP justification comes later. It just happens to feel right too. But hey, it is important to make sure no new rule goes too far and has uninteresting consequences. So I'll gladly take the sarcasm. :)
I always considered clerics and druids to be the luckiest and laziest spellcasters. They don't have to choose which spells they know, like bards, sorcerers, and warlocks, they don't have to hunt spell scrolls like wizards. They just know all their spells form the start! Most other spellcasters have to plan their known spells for their entire lifetime ahead, clerics and druids have to plan just for an upcoming day! Frankly, saying that even this isn't enough is like hearing a bourgeois complaining about insufficient amount of options within flavors of caviar to a proletarian that doesn't always have bread on their plate. Divine spell list (why does my mind always want me to write "divine playlist"?) isn't as versatile as arcane, sure, but it has plenty going on as it is with all the spells for searching stuff and scrying in various ways, providing nutrition, and talking to people.
It is looking like everyone is like that in one though. The bard probably has a bigger list than the cleric now and they know them all and prepare them just like them.
Right. That's the way 1DnD is shaping up. Almost everyone will likely be prepared casters. Maybe Sorcerers and Warlocks stay with known spells. We can't know yet.
I'm not sure how they will make Wizards unique, with so many classes cutting in on prepared spells, and no one else needing to find them in an old book. The Arcane list is massive though. So I could see them saying Wizards have every spell in their book prepared at all times.
For Clerics, I was talking about 1DnD. And I wasn't personally complaining about not having enough flexibility in general. I was trying to address the problem people have with so many Cleric spells being situational and hardly chosen as a result. These spells aren't very powerful, so spending slots on them isn't making the class OP. They are just ones that you have to know in advance if you'll need them, but a day after the fact is usually too late. Like most of the ones that remove negative conditions or detect threats such as traps or disease.
There are also so many good buffs and protective spells that never see action because they just aren't as universally dependable as the main ones. Spells like Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Protection From Evil and Good are cool low level spells. But Bless is going to win when you only get to prepare 4 level 1 spells.
Since these spells are more situational, but also some of the most thematic spells, is a shame they don't get used more. The new preparation rules will probably have most of them collecting even more dust. That was just one possible problem, that I proposed a solution to, that also felt right for the class thematically. Maybe I am being bougie though. XD
I don't think there's a way to address the situational nature of some of the cleric spells; just to have DMs make these situations happen more often. Clerics already have more spell slots and hence prepared spells than martials have features. If they don't choose a certain spell that is an optimal solution to a foreseeable problem, well, it's their problem then. And clerics are supposed to be foreseeing problems with all their divination spells. Making decisions about which spells to prepare is one of the things that make the prepared caster class interesting.
If people can't agree whether it is just good or too good, but no one thinks it is bad, isn't that the sweet spot for where it should be? Shouldn't we be asking that all the first level abilities be in that spot? All dips/multiclasses be equally viable by all of them being good enough that people fight over which is best?
To be honest, I honestly am questioning whether even the cleric dip is worth taking. For example, is the dip in cleric worth the delayed spell progression when you could instead use your first level feat for similar benefits and maintain on time spell progression throughout your entire career.
Okay, I understand that it might not be as good to some players as it is to others. But it feels like you're downplaying it a bit much. There is no first level feat that can give you - medium armor and shields, 3 divine cantrips, access to all first level divine spells, 2 slots, and an ability that continues to scale up to 36d8 healing, or radiant damage, or turn undead.
A feat can give you the armor. Or it can give you a couple specific spells. But it can't give you both, and it certainly can't replicate Channel Divinity.
It's cool if the Cleric doesn't fit your particular way of playing, but it's not so easily replicated as to make it that pitiful. I could believe if someone says it feels about right compared to the Bard or Ranger. I wouldn't completely agree. It feels like a much stronger choice for a Wizard than either of them to me. I could at least see someone feeling it was comparable. Saying it's hardly worth taking sounds really strange.
The dip also comes at the cost of delaying spell progression by a level and I consider that to be a massive detriment. I am not downplaying it at all. Spell Progression at a fullcaster is incredibly important and delaying all future spells by a level is quite huge, even at higher tiers.
Lightly Armoured gives you the armor and skilled proficiency and Magic Initiate can get you access to key first level spells like Bless. Sure it is not in one package, but it lets you keep on time spell progression.
I find on time spell progression to be incredibly valuable across all tiers of play.
Not saying that multiclass spell progression should change. The delay is needed for balance. However, I find the cleric dip to be of very questionable potency. I still think that feats should be based on character levels and martial characters should not have their first extra attack delayed, but the spell progression of casters should be delayed.
If people can't agree whether it is just good or too good, but no one thinks it is bad, isn't that the sweet spot for where it should be? Shouldn't we be asking that all the first level abilities be in that spot? All dips/multiclasses be equally viable by all of them being good enough that people fight over which is best?
To be honest, I honestly am questioning whether even the cleric dip is worth taking. For example, is the dip in cleric worth the delayed spell progression when you could instead use your first level feat for similar benefits and maintain on time spell progression throughout your entire career.
Okay, I understand that it might not be as good to some players as it is to others. But it feels like you're downplaying it a bit much. There is no first level feat that can give you - medium armor and shields, 3 divine cantrips, access to all first level divine spells, 2 slots, and an ability that continues to scale up to 36d8 healing, or radiant damage, or turn undead.
A feat can give you the armor. Or it can give you a couple specific spells. But it can't give you both, and it certainly can't replicate Channel Divinity.
It's cool if the Cleric doesn't fit your particular way of playing, but it's not so easily replicated as to make it that pitiful. I could believe if someone says it feels about right compared to the Bard or Ranger. I wouldn't completely agree. It feels like a much stronger choice for a Wizard than either of them to me. I could at least see someone feeling it was comparable. Saying it's hardly worth taking sounds really strange.
The dip also comes at the cost of delaying spell progression by a level and I consider that to be a massive detriment. I am not downplaying it at all. Spell Progression at a fullcaster is incredibly important and delaying all future spells by a level is quite huge, even at higher tiers.
Lightly Armoured gives you the armor and skilled proficiency and Magic Initiate can get you access to key first level spells like Bless. Sure it is not in one package, but it lets you keep on time spell progression.
I find on time spell progression to be incredibly valuable across all tiers of play.
Not saying that multiclass spell progression should change. The delay is needed for balance. However, I find the cleric dip to be of very questionable potency. I still think that feats should be based on character levels and martial characters should not have their first extra attack delayed, but the spell progression of casters should be delayed.
Ah, so that would just be true of any spellcaster for you then, that makes sense.
I was making a lot of characters last night using the 1DnD classes and options we have so far. Just to play around with multiclassing. I tried to leverage the Holy Order into some builds, thinking it would work nicely with certain classes. But coming in at second level, with no other benefits but the spell slots, I just couldn't make it work. It was too big of a hit to spell progression for just one feature. One that I could mostly replicate other ways.
I still think the 1st level of Cleric is worth it personally. You get a lot more from that, and a one level delay on spells isn't that bad to me.
But it did make me see that is probably going to be rare for anyone to take more than one level in Cleric when multiclassing. Moving the Domain to level 3 was good I think overall. There is just a side effect from breaking apart the benefits that usually came with it - useful Channel Divinity at level 1 and Holy Order at level 2. What remains of the Domain features is nice to have for the full Cleric, but not nearly as valuable investing 3 levels or more to multiclass except for very specific character concepts.
That's probably going to be true across most of the classes with the subclass standardization. None of the level 3 features we have seen are so tempting to make people go out of the way for them. First level is really good for everyone. Second level is hit or miss. But after that, I'm not sure. Combining that with the capstone features at level 18 and unimpressive Epic Boons, we might start seeing a lot of 1/1/18 builds, but not much more. It's not only the fact that it is the most that people might want to invest. It also feels optimal to always dip another class, especially in the same Group.
I'm not a big multiclasser in general, so it doesn't bother me a lot. I don't think I would have even noticed any of it without these conversations, so I think it's been great to talk through. I'm not sure how I feel about the way the classes are panning out overall, but it is interesting...
Ah, so that would just be true of any spellcaster for you then, that makes sense.
I was making a lot of characters last night using the 1DnD classes and options we have so far. Just to play around with multiclassing. I tried to leverage the Holy Order into some builds, thinking it would work nicely with certain classes. But coming in at second level, with no other benefits but the spell slots, I just couldn't make it work. It was too big of a hit to spell progression for just one feature. One that I could mostly replicate other ways.
I still think the 1st level of Cleric is worth it personally. You get a lot more from that, and a one level delay on spells isn't that bad to me.
But it did make me see that is probably going to be rare for anyone to take more than one level in Cleric when multiclassing. Moving the Domain to level 3 was good I think overall. There is just a side effect from breaking apart the benefits that usually came with it - useful Channel Divinity at level 1 and Holy Order at level 2. What remains of the Domain features is nice to have for the full Cleric, but not nearly as valuable investing 3 levels or more to multiclass except for very specific character concepts.
That's probably going to be true across most of the classes with the subclass standardization. None of the level 3 features we have seen are so tempting to make people go out of the way for them. First level is really good for everyone. Second level is hit or miss. But after that, I'm not sure. Combining that with the capstone features at level 18 and unimpressive Epic Boons, we might start seeing a lot of 1/1/18 builds, but not much more. It's not only the fact that it is the most that people might want to invest. It also feels optimal to always dip another class, especially in the same Group.
I'm not a big multiclasser in general, so it doesn't bother me a lot. I don't think I would have even noticed any of it without these conversations, so I think it's been great to talk through. I'm not sure how I feel about the way the classes are panning out overall, but it is interesting...
I multiclass prefer frequently, potentially due to my games regularly reaching late T3 and T4. I see people saying that the change will promote multiclass diversity, but I really don't see that being the case. Right now, I feel like One D&D will have less multiclass diversity than 5E. It's why I feel like Feats should be based on character level and the first extra attack should not be delayed if you only taken martial classes. Multiclassing in 5E is often seen as complex and tricky; I find a lot of people messing up with the multiclassing rules. Multiclassing should really be made more accessible.
I also feel like there needs to be a bit more incentive to actually go deeper into classes when multiclassing. The only multiclass that goes deep into both classes in 5E are paladin based multiclasses where you generally take 6 or 7 levels of paladin then the rest in a charisma caster. I would like to see more options open up somehow.
Maybe all scaling needs to shift to levels within your class grouping, or levels on the class itself to avoid things like giving a wizard the ability to heal 36d8 from a one level cleric dip.
Maybe all scaling needs to shift to levels within your class grouping, or levels on the class itself to avoid things like giving a wizard the ability to heal 36d8 from a one level cleric dip.
Lets break that down. With one use of the ability at 20th level, that Wizard can restore an average of 30 hp.
The Average Barbarian would have 240 HP at level 20 (assuming 20 Con)
The Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue and Warlock have 140 (assuming 14 con)
Fighter at that level has 220 (assuming 20 con like the Barbarian)
The Monk is roughly in the same place as the other d8 classes, but we will assume 16 Con so they have an average of 160 hp
The Paladin is the same as the Fighter at 220 HP
The Ranger may not have the 20 Con of the other martials so lets bring them down to 180 HP
The Sorcerer and Wizard are looking pretty sad at 120 HP each
36d8 certainly looks like a big number, but it really isn't in the grand scheme of things. It is certainly a good bonus to have to augment the party though.
Edit: I will admit, I am not great at math, so I am sure some one will correct that for me in an upcoming post.
Maybe all scaling needs to shift to levels within your class grouping, or levels on the class itself to avoid things like giving a wizard the ability to heal 36d8 from a one level cleric dip.
Lets break that down. With one use of the ability at 20th level, that Wizard can restore an average of 30 hp.
The Average Barbarian would have 240 HP at level 20 (assuming 20 Con)
The Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue and Warlock have 140 (assuming 14 con)
Fighter at that level has 220 (assuming 20 con like the Barbarian)
The Monk is roughly in the same place as the other d8 classes, but we will assume 16 Con so they have an average of 160 hp
The Paladin is the same as the Fighter at 220 HP
The Ranger may not have the 20 Con of the other martials so lets bring them down to 180 HP
The Sorcerer and Wizard are looking pretty sad at 120 HP each
36d8 certainly looks like a big number, but it really isn't in the grand scheme of things. It is certainly a good bonus to have to augment the party though.
Edit: I will admit, I am not great at math, so I am sure some one will correct that for me in an upcoming post.
It works out to about 160 HP of healing on average. When benchmarked against other heal sources, that gives you the equivalent of 2.25 6th level spells (Heal), or ~10 2nd level spells (Prayer of Healing) worth of recovery without expending any of your own spell slots, or losing any spell slot progression. A one level dip that can about triple the number of 6th level equivalent spells you can cast is pretty powerful.
Ah, so that would just be true of any spellcaster for you then, that makes sense.
I was making a lot of characters last night using the 1DnD classes and options we have so far. Just to play around with multiclassing. I tried to leverage the Holy Order into some builds, thinking it would work nicely with certain classes. But coming in at second level, with no other benefits but the spell slots, I just couldn't make it work. It was too big of a hit to spell progression for just one feature. One that I could mostly replicate other ways.
I still think the 1st level of Cleric is worth it personally. You get a lot more from that, and a one level delay on spells isn't that bad to me.
But it did make me see that is probably going to be rare for anyone to take more than one level in Cleric when multiclassing. Moving the Domain to level 3 was good I think overall. There is just a side effect from breaking apart the benefits that usually came with it - useful Channel Divinity at level 1 and Holy Order at level 2. What remains of the Domain features is nice to have for the full Cleric, but not nearly as valuable investing 3 levels or more to multiclass except for very specific character concepts.
That's probably going to be true across most of the classes with the subclass standardization. None of the level 3 features we have seen are so tempting to make people go out of the way for them. First level is really good for everyone. Second level is hit or miss. But after that, I'm not sure. Combining that with the capstone features at level 18 and unimpressive Epic Boons, we might start seeing a lot of 1/1/18 builds, but not much more. It's not only the fact that it is the most that people might want to invest. It also feels optimal to always dip another class, especially in the same Group.
I'm not a big multiclasser in general, so it doesn't bother me a lot. I don't think I would have even noticed any of it without these conversations, so I think it's been great to talk through. I'm not sure how I feel about the way the classes are panning out overall, but it is interesting...
I multiclass prefer frequently, potentially due to my games regularly reaching late T3 and T4. I see people saying that the change will promote multiclass diversity, but I really don't see that being the case. Right now, I feel like One D&D will have less multiclass diversity than 5E. It's why I feel like Feats should be based on character level and the first extra attack should not be delayed if you only taken martial classes. Multiclassing in 5E is often seen as complex and tricky; I find a lot of people messing up with the multiclassing rules. Multiclassing should really be made more accessible.
I also feel like there needs to be a bit more incentive to actually go deeper into classes when multiclassing. The only multiclass that goes deep into both classes in 5E are paladin based multiclasses where you generally take 6 or 7 levels of paladin then the rest in a charisma caster. I would like to see more options open up somehow.
I think it depends on what one means by multiclass diversity. I could definitely see a larger variety of multiclass combos in 1DnD. Classes combined in ways we don't normally see. More people taking a small dip. But I'm not sure there will be many people going deep into them. And we probably won't see it limited to just a few must-have combos like we see in 5e.
Most of that is probably a good thing. I would like to get away from the Charisma power combos. And I would like to see more people feeling encouraged to come up with creative class combinations. It would be great if every class had something equal to offer at level 1.
Not going deep into classes seems more likely though, and potentially a loss overall. The way they are spreading class features out more is probably good for getting people to try higher tier play. But maybe not great for this aspect.
The other wierd concern I have is that a level 1 dip might become almost standard. As the classes are shaping up now, it seems likely. If I were to make a support Bard, I'm almost always better taking a level of Cleric too. If I wanted a combat Bard, a level in Ranger is always going to be a good investment. Delaying extra attack by one level hurts for a few games, but the bonus expertise and the super hunters mark more than makes up for it in the early levels.
I don't know how I feel about that. It feels off. Some characters have great RP reasons to begin life as a Cleric and become a Bard later. But it would be really strange if half of them do. :/
Clerics only have a handful of divination spells that could potentially inform them of preparing more situational spells, and only two (augury and divination) predict the future, only one (commune) lets them ask their god direct questions about anything, only one (legend lore) gives you any appreciable detail about any particular subject of importance, and one (speak with dead) isn't even a divination spell.
And augury doesn't predict very far into the future or give any details, just vague omens. And it's the only one I just mentioned that's accessible before 5th level.
/sigh I knew someone would pick on that. Yes, there is no "read DM's notes" spell". However, clerics have access to clairvoyance and scrying, which are basically surveillance cameras, find traps and detection spells that can warn you about outsiders and magic... Not to mention that detect poison and disease works directly in conjunction with purify food and drink. I mean, divination is clerics' third basic theme after healing and buffs.
Maybe all scaling needs to shift to levels within your class grouping, or levels on the class itself to avoid things like giving a wizard the ability to heal 36d8 from a one level cleric dip.
Lets break that down. With one use of the ability at 20th level, that Wizard can restore an average of 30 hp.
The Average Barbarian would have 240 HP at level 20 (assuming 20 Con)
The Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue and Warlock have 140 (assuming 14 con)
Fighter at that level has 220 (assuming 20 con like the Barbarian)
The Monk is roughly in the same place as the other d8 classes, but we will assume 16 Con so they have an average of 160 hp
The Paladin is the same as the Fighter at 220 HP
The Ranger may not have the 20 Con of the other martials so lets bring them down to 180 HP
The Sorcerer and Wizard are looking pretty sad at 120 HP each
36d8 certainly looks like a big number, but it really isn't in the grand scheme of things. It is certainly a good bonus to have to augment the party though.
Edit: I will admit, I am not great at math, so I am sure some one will correct that for me in an upcoming post.
It works out to about 160 HP of healing on average. When benchmarked against other heal sources, that gives you the equivalent of 2.25 6th level spells (Heal), or ~10 2nd level spells (Prayer of Healing) worth of recovery without expending any of your own spell slots, or losing any spell slot progression. A one level dip that can about triple the number of 6th level equivalent spells you can cast is pretty powerful.
It is powerful when considering how healing works in 5e, but I have always felt that healing is really weak in 5e and should be fixed.
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I actually really like this idea. I've been thinking for awhile now about ways that a class might be able to cast more spells as rituals. I think this is a perfect fit for it. To maintain balance, you could say the Ceremonial Casting still uses the spell slot. It just lets you use any spell you didn't prepare by spending more time praying. It's really thematic and wouldn't be too powerful. It would just let Clerics actually help people in need that they weren't expecting.
Honestly, I would love this to replace divine intervention at 11. And have divine intervention at 18 as it is. So essentially 18 becomes once per 2d4 days you can do so without spending a spell slot or the extra time praying to your god.
And while we're at it, spell slots are too limiting for divine power. Imagine saying "Sorry, my god would love to help you, but I'm out of spell slots". Ridiculous, isn't it? I mean, yeah, even more versatility and less thinking in managing their power is exactly what casters need, especially a class as weak as cleric.
I'll have to stop now or my sarcasmometer will explode.
Haha. Well, I was specifically referring to a change that could get more Clerics to spend their slots on spells like Purify Food and Water, Augury, Calm Emotions, Protection from Poison, and other spells like them. Ones that get left behind for Bless, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians all the time. Because with prepared spells, players tend to take the ones they are sure they will use, at the expense of one's that can be more flavorful but situational.
Those OP Clerics would actually be spending slots on 'weaker' spells if they could access them. It might reduce their relative combat power overall, rather than increase it. And we might see some better variety in spells used in a day. The Divine list doesn't have the Swiss army knife toolbox that Wizards have. They won't be solving every problem with Lesser Restoration. It just might actually get used. And requiring them to take 10 minutes (using Fhaolan's suggestion) means it won't be granting advantages in combat.
I think it would work pretty well for its purpose. The rule is intended to fix an issue I perceive in the game. The RP justification comes later. It just happens to feel right too. But hey, it is important to make sure no new rule goes too far and has uninteresting consequences. So I'll gladly take the sarcasm. :)
I could see maybe allowing clerics to ritual cast spells they don’t have prepared if the spell has the ritual tag. Maybe on a limited basis, but I really haven’t looked at the new divine list for rituals so maybe unlimited might be ok. But is pretty powerful.
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I always considered clerics and druids to be the luckiest and laziest spellcasters. They don't have to choose which spells they know, like bards, sorcerers, and warlocks, they don't have to hunt spell scrolls like wizards. They just know all their spells form the start! Most other spellcasters have to plan their known spells for their entire lifetime ahead, clerics and druids have to plan just for an upcoming day! Frankly, saying that even this isn't enough is like hearing a bourgeois complaining about insufficient amount of options within flavors of caviar to a proletarian that doesn't always have bread on their plate. Divine spell list (why does my mind always want me to write "divine playlist"?) isn't as versatile as arcane, sure, but it has plenty going on as it is with all the spells for searching stuff and scrying in various ways, providing nutrition, and talking to people.
It is looking like everyone is like that in one though. The bard probably has a bigger list than the cleric now and they know them all and prepare them just like them.
Since discussions seem to be going in a similar direction, I would like to bring up this thread discussing allowing spellcasters less restricted access to their spell lists. Hardly any point in repeating what's already been said, after all.
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Yikes, I remember that one, haha
Right. That's the way 1DnD is shaping up. Almost everyone will likely be prepared casters. Maybe Sorcerers and Warlocks stay with known spells. We can't know yet.
I'm not sure how they will make Wizards unique, with so many classes cutting in on prepared spells, and no one else needing to find them in an old book. The Arcane list is massive though. So I could see them saying Wizards have every spell in their book prepared at all times.
For Clerics, I was talking about 1DnD. And I wasn't personally complaining about not having enough flexibility in general. I was trying to address the problem people have with so many Cleric spells being situational and hardly chosen as a result. These spells aren't very powerful, so spending slots on them isn't making the class OP. They are just ones that you have to know in advance if you'll need them, but a day after the fact is usually too late. Like most of the ones that remove negative conditions or detect threats such as traps or disease.
There are also so many good buffs and protective spells that never see action because they just aren't as universally dependable as the main ones. Spells like Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Protection From Evil and Good are cool low level spells. But Bless is going to win when you only get to prepare 4 level 1 spells.
Since these spells are more situational, but also some of the most thematic spells, is a shame they don't get used more. The new preparation rules will probably have most of them collecting even more dust. That was just one possible problem, that I proposed a solution to, that also felt right for the class thematically. Maybe I am being bougie though. XD
I don't think there's a way to address the situational nature of some of the cleric spells; just to have DMs make these situations happen more often. Clerics already have more spell slots and hence prepared spells than martials have features. If they don't choose a certain spell that is an optimal solution to a foreseeable problem, well, it's their problem then. And clerics are supposed to be foreseeing problems with all their divination spells. Making decisions about which spells to prepare is one of the things that make the prepared caster class interesting.
The dip also comes at the cost of delaying spell progression by a level and I consider that to be a massive detriment. I am not downplaying it at all. Spell Progression at a fullcaster is incredibly important and delaying all future spells by a level is quite huge, even at higher tiers.
Lightly Armoured gives you the armor and skilled proficiency and Magic Initiate can get you access to key first level spells like Bless. Sure it is not in one package, but it lets you keep on time spell progression.
I find on time spell progression to be incredibly valuable across all tiers of play.
Not saying that multiclass spell progression should change. The delay is needed for balance. However, I find the cleric dip to be of very questionable potency. I still think that feats should be based on character levels and martial characters should not have their first extra attack delayed, but the spell progression of casters should be delayed.
Ah, so that would just be true of any spellcaster for you then, that makes sense.
I was making a lot of characters last night using the 1DnD classes and options we have so far. Just to play around with multiclassing. I tried to leverage the Holy Order into some builds, thinking it would work nicely with certain classes. But coming in at second level, with no other benefits but the spell slots, I just couldn't make it work. It was too big of a hit to spell progression for just one feature. One that I could mostly replicate other ways.
I still think the 1st level of Cleric is worth it personally. You get a lot more from that, and a one level delay on spells isn't that bad to me.
But it did make me see that is probably going to be rare for anyone to take more than one level in Cleric when multiclassing. Moving the Domain to level 3 was good I think overall. There is just a side effect from breaking apart the benefits that usually came with it - useful Channel Divinity at level 1 and Holy Order at level 2. What remains of the Domain features is nice to have for the full Cleric, but not nearly as valuable investing 3 levels or more to multiclass except for very specific character concepts.
That's probably going to be true across most of the classes with the subclass standardization. None of the level 3 features we have seen are so tempting to make people go out of the way for them. First level is really good for everyone. Second level is hit or miss. But after that, I'm not sure. Combining that with the capstone features at level 18 and unimpressive Epic Boons, we might start seeing a lot of 1/1/18 builds, but not much more. It's not only the fact that it is the most that people might want to invest. It also feels optimal to always dip another class, especially in the same Group.
I'm not a big multiclasser in general, so it doesn't bother me a lot. I don't think I would have even noticed any of it without these conversations, so I think it's been great to talk through. I'm not sure how I feel about the way the classes are panning out overall, but it is interesting...
I multiclass prefer frequently, potentially due to my games regularly reaching late T3 and T4. I see people saying that the change will promote multiclass diversity, but I really don't see that being the case. Right now, I feel like One D&D will have less multiclass diversity than 5E. It's why I feel like Feats should be based on character level and the first extra attack should not be delayed if you only taken martial classes. Multiclassing in 5E is often seen as complex and tricky; I find a lot of people messing up with the multiclassing rules. Multiclassing should really be made more accessible.
I also feel like there needs to be a bit more incentive to actually go deeper into classes when multiclassing. The only multiclass that goes deep into both classes in 5E are paladin based multiclasses where you generally take 6 or 7 levels of paladin then the rest in a charisma caster. I would like to see more options open up somehow.
Maybe all scaling needs to shift to levels within your class grouping, or levels on the class itself to avoid things like giving a wizard the ability to heal 36d8 from a one level cleric dip.
Lets break that down. With one use of the ability at 20th level, that Wizard can restore an average of 30 hp.
36d8 certainly looks like a big number, but it really isn't in the grand scheme of things. It is certainly a good bonus to have to augment the party though.
Edit: I will admit, I am not great at math, so I am sure some one will correct that for me in an upcoming post.
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It works out to about 160 HP of healing on average. When benchmarked against other heal sources, that gives you the equivalent of 2.25 6th level spells (Heal), or ~10 2nd level spells (Prayer of Healing) worth of recovery without expending any of your own spell slots, or losing any spell slot progression. A one level dip that can about triple the number of 6th level equivalent spells you can cast is pretty powerful.
I think it depends on what one means by multiclass diversity. I could definitely see a larger variety of multiclass combos in 1DnD. Classes combined in ways we don't normally see. More people taking a small dip. But I'm not sure there will be many people going deep into them. And we probably won't see it limited to just a few must-have combos like we see in 5e.
Most of that is probably a good thing. I would like to get away from the Charisma power combos. And I would like to see more people feeling encouraged to come up with creative class combinations. It would be great if every class had something equal to offer at level 1.
Not going deep into classes seems more likely though, and potentially a loss overall. The way they are spreading class features out more is probably good for getting people to try higher tier play. But maybe not great for this aspect.
The other wierd concern I have is that a level 1 dip might become almost standard. As the classes are shaping up now, it seems likely. If I were to make a support Bard, I'm almost always better taking a level of Cleric too. If I wanted a combat Bard, a level in Ranger is always going to be a good investment. Delaying extra attack by one level hurts for a few games, but the bonus expertise and the super hunters mark more than makes up for it in the early levels.
I don't know how I feel about that. It feels off. Some characters have great RP reasons to begin life as a Cleric and become a Bard later. But it would be really strange if half of them do. :/
/sigh I knew someone would pick on that. Yes, there is no "read DM's notes" spell". However, clerics have access to clairvoyance and scrying, which are basically surveillance cameras, find traps and detection spells that can warn you about outsiders and magic... Not to mention that detect poison and disease works directly in conjunction with purify food and drink. I mean, divination is clerics' third basic theme after healing and buffs.
It is powerful when considering how healing works in 5e, but I have always felt that healing is really weak in 5e and should be fixed.
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