There is no way that I will buy material published under the OGL 1.1 if the leaks are true. I can't imagine that the ludicrous attempt to "revoke" OGL 1.0a will hold up in court, and if they somehow make it work anyway by throwing millions at their lawyers I don't even want to imagine the implications for the future oft TTRPGs and even other areas such as OpensSource Software licences.
Its really not that hard to imagine. Prior to 2000 there was no OGL and their were plenty of other rpgs. Some will do their own games some will sign on to the new OGL. Some will transition to lore and system agnostic advice.
So content creators which previously did so under the current OGL, made content and (hopefully) made money from that, and now they fear that wotc starts taking a cut + starts using their creations freely? (I can totally understand that fear if that’s the case)
There are a bunch of problems with the 1.1 license -- honestly, I think the expectation is that anyone serious is going to negotiate a separate deal with Wizards rather than relying on the 'OGL'.
They (the 3PP) might want to, but part of 1.1 is separating the wheat from the chaff.
By requiring revenue reporting, WotC knows what to keep an eye on. Not just in terms of what kinds of content the community is thirsty for, but also specific creators to keep an eye on. These are then people they can hire for a time to work on a new in-house project. Or, if it's an actual company with some larger concerns, work out a new custom agreement for a book or three.
I find it both genius and kind of gross.
I don't usually do this, but enough time has passed that I think a full post is more valuable than a mere edit.
I think the above is why the (alleged) draft OGL 1.1 contains clauses granting WotC a license to use your creations. Seemingly, it even grants them permission to use Property Identity. In perpetuity, and with no compensation. Similar language can be found in other Terms of Service, like those for YouTube. The point isn't to steal independent creator content and rebrand it as their own. The point is marketing.
If this system goes into effect, and it presumably could in just two days, it's not just enough to know who to hire. You need to pitch their product to the crowd. Not everyone knows who Keith Amann, Justice Arman, or Dan Dillon are. New hires often aren't kept on very long. It's often on a contractual basis; typically for either a fixed number of years or a specific book moved. Granting WotC a license to use content means they can advertise with it
"Hey, community, have you heard of any of these books? Well, we're hiring X and Y who worked on them for something special. Stay tuned for updates."
Granted, this is the most benign interpretation. The language in the (alleged) draft 1.1 is vague to the point where it allows for anything and everything. It's easily exploitable, and that's at least part of the issue. (I'm not seeing any D&D YouTubers actually talk about this, and that's disappointing because they should recognize it.) Which is probably why it's an (alleged) draft, and not a finished product. But time will tell. If it arrives in two days without any changes, then we know they're asking for us to take a lot on faith.
And we already know how uncomfortable some 3PPs are with that. So much they're already going their separate ways.
If it is only marketing, and they are wanting to integrate other’s work in their own system, I would argue there could be a benefit for (smaller) content creators as well. Content creators are creatives, artists, visionaries. Their specialty is creating, and all the (expensive) overhead in printing, distributing, marketing, financing, logistics etc. is not. Maybe the threshold for putting out your work will be drastically lowered for small / starting content creators, and their work will actually see the light of day like this.
If it is only marketing, and they are wanting to integrate other’s work in their own system, I would argue there could be a benefit for (smaller) content creators as well. Content creators are creatives, artists, visionaries. Their specialty is creating, and all the (expensive) overhead in printing, distributing, marketing, financing, logistics etc. is not. Maybe the threshold for putting out your work will be drastically lowered for small / starting content creators, and their work will actually see the light of day like this.
I've said from early on i suspect its for something like marketing. I hadn't though of hiring people but something like D&D rocks look at all these 3rd party supplements you will have access to. Sort of like how Bethesda games brags about its mod friendly design. Not only is our game going to rock, but tons of other people will work on it giving you options far beyond what our one studio can deliver.
That being said the language allows them to do much more than that. But I suspect the reputational hit for stealing peoples works like that would make the 1.1 leak look like a nice week. And they know that, so I highly doubt they'd steal peoples stuff. There is tons of other bad language in 1.1 that would screw over creators so that is where I'd focus my concern if i was in that field.
Maybe we should standardize reporting and then inundate wotc with revenue reports of $0 every time anyone creates a map, a custom character sheet, planning notes, and maybe running a game night just to be safe.
In all seriousness, I have no personal problem with licensing, but to claim unrestricted access to any published work seems very overreaching.
I’m already “other system curious” because of the atrocious adventure modules wotc produces. This would push our table to another system even though I’ve bought core 5E three times (paper, dndbeyond, and fantasy grounds)
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
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Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely. If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
Depends on the kind of story you want to tell. Ideally, the rules exist to facilitate a particular brand of fantasy. In my opinion, D&D and Pathfinder fall short of this. They're both phenomenal, but they're also rather open-ended. You can use the mechanics to facilitate almost any style of play; so long as the setting is mostly pseudo-medieval.
Pathfinder has the advantage, so to speak, of being able to tie everything to one, specific setting. You could use the rules and just play in your current D&D game, though, but it means a lot of work to rebuild everything. There's some similarity, but also a lot of differences. And character growth is far more nuanced. You make choices and acquire feats every level, but they aren't like D&D feats. Because there's so many, they tend to be less powerful overall. This is also where your class features come in. They're all feats, so everything is highly customizable.
Cyberpunk is specifically about the dystopia of late-to-end-stage capitalism and how scraping by to survive and climbing up in the world often means sacrificing your humanity. I find it's grimdark and crapsack.
If it is only marketing, and they are wanting to integrate other’s work in their own system, I would argue there could be a benefit for (smaller) content creators as well. Content creators are creatives, artists, visionaries. Their specialty is creating, and all the (expensive) overhead in printing, distributing, marketing, financing, logistics etc. is not. Maybe the threshold for putting out your work will be drastically lowered for small / starting content creators, and their work will actually see the light of day like this.
It may get seen by more people but those creatives won't get paid a cent in return, because OGL1.1 says WotC can use it for any purpose without paying the creators any royalties or licensing fees. Under OGL1.1 DnDBeyond could add every subclass from Grim Hollow or Drakkenheim as an option for anyone to purchase for $2 to use on DnDBeyond and not pay the original creators anything.
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
I was thinking of fate, dungeon world, Call of Cthulhu, or maybe The Role. No idea if any of them are any good. I’m kind of 4e interested. I didn’t play it and I know it gets a lot of shade, but it sounds better balanced. Maybe 13th Age, which is supposed to be 4e inspired, but without the minis emphasis.
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
I’d be hesitant to get too attached to pathfinder until we see how this will all shake out. It was developed under the ogl, after all.
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
My fallbacks are usually Paladium and GURPS, but then I'm old so it's older editions of those games than what is current. :) Both systems are very crunch-heavy for building characters, but their various supplemental worldbooks are fascinating reading if nothing else.
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
My fallbacks are usually Paladium and GURPS, but then I'm old so it's older editions of those games than what is current. :) Both systems are very crunch-heavy for building characters, but their various supplemental worldbooks are fascinating reading if nothing else.
I will not touch Palladium with a 39 1/2 foot pole. They screwed a friend of mine out of a gig.
…well. Just saw the DnD_Shorts post about the email from a WotC employee. Their plans to wait for this to die down was a good one, except the higher ups (Management and C-Levels) view we the customers as obstacles to THEIR money? I’m angry. Indignant. And have already canceled my subscription.
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@gamephantomdm on twitter twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
My fallbacks are usually Paladium and GURPS, but then I'm old so it's older editions of those games than what is current. :) Both systems are very crunch-heavy for building characters, but their various supplemental worldbooks are fascinating reading if nothing else.
Palladium has historically been notoriously litigious (as in, worse than TSR about fan stuff), GURPS is not as obnoxious but is most certainly not open or anything close.
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
I recommend Shadowrun over Cyberpunk. It’s essentially a cyberpunk setting with magic. Love that setting.
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
I recommend Shadowrun over Cyberpunk. It’s essentially a cyberpunk setting with magic. Love that setting.
Yeah, shadowrun is really fun.
Just buy a lot of d6's. If you think you have enough, you don't.
My fallbacks are usually Paladium and GURPS, but then I'm old so it's older editions of those games than what is current. :) Both systems are very crunch-heavy for building characters, but their various supplemental worldbooks are fascinating reading if nothing else.
Palladium has historically been notoriously litigious (as in, worse than TSR about fan stuff), GURPS is not as obnoxious but is most certainly not open or anything close.
Even if the worst of OGL 1.1 is true its more open than any other company out there. With exception of Kobold Press cause they are creating a game with an open license. Which is their attempt to cash in on Wizards fumbling of things here.
The problem I'm finding is that no other game feels really like DnD 5e. Because of the OGL, no one felt a need to create anything similar in theme and feel because DnD was already there and being played by millions. It made more sense to write for it than make something like it.
Pathfinder is not 5e and it's never been the kind of game I wanted to play. Even when it was DnD 3.5. I can get the same theme there, but the rules are a big turn off. Every other game that has come out is a clone of an older edition, or a different genre entirely, or tries to have enough of its own feel apart from DnD that it is it's own thing. Which is great, but it can't replace 5e in the same way.
I've played so many wonderful games over the years and will probably revisit some of them. Shadowrun is a great example. But if my group wants high fantasy adventure with easy but customizable rules, I don't have many options.
I'm not giving up mind you. I know that Kobold Press and others will probably get there eventually. I've signed up to help them playtest. I've already purchased some of the old school DnD clone books to support those games. I'm sure I'll be buying more in the coming months. But it's a shame that the OGL we all came to enjoy also made a desert of DnD 5e type of games. I guess it's time to wait for the future.
Has anyone played Dungeon World? I've seen people play MotW and it looks super fun, but I'm not that into the horror aspect. Dungeon World sounds perfect, but does it really capture a sword & sorcery feel?
Its really not that hard to imagine. Prior to 2000 there was no OGL and their were plenty of other rpgs. Some will do their own games some will sign on to the new OGL. Some will transition to lore and system agnostic advice.
I don't usually do this, but enough time has passed that I think a full post is more valuable than a mere edit.
I think the above is why the (alleged) draft OGL 1.1 contains clauses granting WotC a license to use your creations. Seemingly, it even grants them permission to use Property Identity. In perpetuity, and with no compensation. Similar language can be found in other Terms of Service, like those for YouTube. The point isn't to steal independent creator content and rebrand it as their own. The point is marketing.
If this system goes into effect, and it presumably could in just two days, it's not just enough to know who to hire. You need to pitch their product to the crowd. Not everyone knows who Keith Amann, Justice Arman, or Dan Dillon are. New hires often aren't kept on very long. It's often on a contractual basis; typically for either a fixed number of years or a specific book moved. Granting WotC a license to use content means they can advertise with it
"Hey, community, have you heard of any of these books? Well, we're hiring X and Y who worked on them for something special. Stay tuned for updates."
Granted, this is the most benign interpretation. The language in the (alleged) draft 1.1 is vague to the point where it allows for anything and everything. It's easily exploitable, and that's at least part of the issue. (I'm not seeing any D&D YouTubers actually talk about this, and that's disappointing because they should recognize it.) Which is probably why it's an (alleged) draft, and not a finished product. But time will tell. If it arrives in two days without any changes, then we know they're asking for us to take a lot on faith.
And we already know how uncomfortable some 3PPs are with that. So much they're already going their separate ways.
If it is only marketing, and they are wanting to integrate other’s work in their own system, I would argue there could be a benefit for (smaller) content creators as well. Content creators are creatives, artists, visionaries. Their specialty is creating, and all the (expensive) overhead in printing, distributing, marketing, financing, logistics etc. is not. Maybe the threshold for putting out your work will be drastically lowered for small / starting content creators, and their work will actually see the light of day like this.
I've said from early on i suspect its for something like marketing. I hadn't though of hiring people but something like D&D rocks look at all these 3rd party supplements you will have access to. Sort of like how Bethesda games brags about its mod friendly design. Not only is our game going to rock, but tons of other people will work on it giving you options far beyond what our one studio can deliver.
That being said the language allows them to do much more than that. But I suspect the reputational hit for stealing peoples works like that would make the 1.1 leak look like a nice week. And they know that, so I highly doubt they'd steal peoples stuff. There is tons of other bad language in 1.1 that would screw over creators so that is where I'd focus my concern if i was in that field.
Maybe we should standardize reporting and then inundate wotc with revenue reports of $0 every time anyone creates a map, a custom character sheet, planning notes, and maybe running a game night just to be safe.
In all seriousness, I have no personal problem with licensing, but to claim unrestricted access to any published work seems very overreaching.
I’m already “other system curious” because of the atrocious adventure modules wotc produces. This would push our table to another system even though I’ve bought core 5E three times (paper, dndbeyond, and fantasy grounds)
Same here. Even though I love DnD to death, I know a lot of DnD-only players like myself have been itching for an excuse to get their table to try out a new system, and I think 1.1 is going to be that excuse for many people.
As for myself, I'm stuck between trying out Pathfinder or Cyberpunk next, which would y'all reccomend?
Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely.
If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
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Depends on the kind of story you want to tell. Ideally, the rules exist to facilitate a particular brand of fantasy. In my opinion, D&D and Pathfinder fall short of this. They're both phenomenal, but they're also rather open-ended. You can use the mechanics to facilitate almost any style of play; so long as the setting is mostly pseudo-medieval.
Pathfinder has the advantage, so to speak, of being able to tie everything to one, specific setting. You could use the rules and just play in your current D&D game, though, but it means a lot of work to rebuild everything. There's some similarity, but also a lot of differences. And character growth is far more nuanced. You make choices and acquire feats every level, but they aren't like D&D feats. Because there's so many, they tend to be less powerful overall. This is also where your class features come in. They're all feats, so everything is highly customizable.
Cyberpunk is specifically about the dystopia of late-to-end-stage capitalism and how scraping by to survive and climbing up in the world often means sacrificing your humanity. I find it's grimdark and crapsack.
It may get seen by more people but those creatives won't get paid a cent in return, because OGL1.1 says WotC can use it for any purpose without paying the creators any royalties or licensing fees. Under OGL1.1 DnDBeyond could add every subclass from Grim Hollow or Drakkenheim as an option for anyone to purchase for $2 to use on DnDBeyond and not pay the original creators anything.
I was thinking of fate, dungeon world, Call of Cthulhu, or maybe The Role. No idea if any of them are any good. I’m kind of 4e interested. I didn’t play it and I know it gets a lot of shade, but it sounds better balanced. Maybe 13th Age, which is supposed to be 4e inspired, but without the minis emphasis.
I’d be hesitant to get too attached to pathfinder until we see how this will all shake out. It was developed under the ogl, after all.
My fallbacks are usually Paladium and GURPS, but then I'm old so it's older editions of those games than what is current. :) Both systems are very crunch-heavy for building characters, but their various supplemental worldbooks are fascinating reading if nothing else.
I will not touch Palladium with a 39 1/2 foot pole. They screwed a friend of mine out of a gig.
…well. Just saw the DnD_Shorts post about the email from a WotC employee. Their plans to wait for this to die down was a good one, except the higher ups (Management and C-Levels) view we the customers as obstacles to THEIR money? I’m angry. Indignant. And have already canceled my subscription.
@gamephantomdm on twitter
twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D
Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
Palladium has historically been notoriously litigious (as in, worse than TSR about fan stuff), GURPS is not as obnoxious but is most certainly not open or anything close.
I recommend Shadowrun over Cyberpunk. It’s essentially a cyberpunk setting with magic. Love that setting.
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Yeah, shadowrun is really fun.
Just buy a lot of d6's. If you think you have enough, you don't.
Even if the worst of OGL 1.1 is true its more open than any other company out there. With exception of Kobold Press cause they are creating a game with an open license. Which is their attempt to cash in on Wizards fumbling of things here.
The problem I'm finding is that no other game feels really like DnD 5e. Because of the OGL, no one felt a need to create anything similar in theme and feel because DnD was already there and being played by millions. It made more sense to write for it than make something like it.
Pathfinder is not 5e and it's never been the kind of game I wanted to play. Even when it was DnD 3.5. I can get the same theme there, but the rules are a big turn off. Every other game that has come out is a clone of an older edition, or a different genre entirely, or tries to have enough of its own feel apart from DnD that it is it's own thing. Which is great, but it can't replace 5e in the same way.
I've played so many wonderful games over the years and will probably revisit some of them. Shadowrun is a great example. But if my group wants high fantasy adventure with easy but customizable rules, I don't have many options.
I'm not giving up mind you. I know that Kobold Press and others will probably get there eventually. I've signed up to help them playtest. I've already purchased some of the old school DnD clone books to support those games. I'm sure I'll be buying more in the coming months. But it's a shame that the OGL we all came to enjoy also made a desert of DnD 5e type of games. I guess it's time to wait for the future.
Has anyone played Dungeon World? I've seen people play MotW and it looks super fun, but I'm not that into the horror aspect. Dungeon World sounds perfect, but does it really capture a sword & sorcery feel?
Man this comment aged like milk