Longstrider is actually quite useful. I think the real issue is that it takes an ACTION as opposed to a bonus action and a lot of people just aren't used to spells that last more than a minute. I just wrapped up a campaign that was centered around arena-fighting and I prepped Longstrider on my druid towards the end when I was engaged in a lot of 1v1 matches. It was actually useful but at the same time I dealt with a situation where meld-to-stone was far more valuable (summoned a bunch of animals then melded into stone so they'd maul the other guy while I was perfectly safe) and a guy who, in anticipation of fighting me, got a bunch of +movement buffs that just dwarfed Longstrider. On the one hand I want to try it a bit more in other campaigns now; but on the other I can't deny that having to spend an action at the start of combat is a bit much. Maybe on a sorc where I can either extend or quicken it, but on other classes, it might just not be worth the loss in action economy.
I agree it is ALWAYS a precast not a during cast. But its one hour duration makes precasting it much more viable. It is one of the few buff spells in the game that still exist that can be precast. Hell, it is a first level spell so you can always just buy a scroll of longstrider as well, that should be fairly cheap.
Spells aren't just competing for preparation slots, they are also competing for spell slots. Longstrider is a complete waste of a spell slot b/c characters that are Skirmishers already get class features that more than suffice to enable them to be skirmishers and those that aren't skirmishers don't benefit from having increased movement speed. If you find it fun just to see big numbers in play then I'm happy for you, go enjoy your Longstrider all you want, but in terms of actually benefiting the party - i.e. preventing a bad thing happening to a character that otherwise would hit them, or allowing a character to achieve something they otherwise would not have been able to do - casting Longstrider will not make a difference.
Even if my druid could cast every spell on her list at any time, she would never cast Longstrider because having a slot available for Healing Word or Faerie Fire is just so much more valuable. Whereas Healing Word can save a party member's life, give a party member another turn to achieve whatever it is we need to achieve, or earn the trust of civilians by healing their wounded. Similarly, I would always save a 1st level slot for Faerie Fire over Longstrider, Faerie Fire enables us to find invisible objects / creatures, gives Advantage on attacks and makes for an awesome disco party.
Even in the niche case of prepping ahead of time for a situation where movement will be important, she would use Animal Friendship to get party members a cool mount with 50-60 ft move speed and ability to Dash with its action rather than use the same spell slot to give them a +10 move speed.
Bards get both Faerie Fire & Healing Word as well, so I would never spend a 1st level slot on Longstrider with them either. On a high level Wizard/Sorcerer I would always save my 1st level slots for Shield and Mage Armour, and never use them for anything else. If the DM let's you have infinite SRs at the start of the adventuring day, I guess I would cast it with a Warlock since it literally costs me nothing to do so but that's really not saying much.
So, let me get this straight, you think a +5 to AC for one round is better for your survival than 10 feet of extra movement speed for 1 hour. We are not playing the same game. We are playing 2 fundamentally different games.
Clearly, we must be. What game are you playing where most enemies have only 30ft of movement and only make melee attacks and every combat starts with the party 40ft away from the enemies? Sound boring TBH. Why don't you give examples from your game where 10ft of movement actually made a difference.
Clearly, we must be. What game are you playing where most enemies have only 30ft of movement and only make melee attacks and every combat starts with the party 40ft away from the enemies? Sound boring TBH. Why don't you give examples from your game where 10ft of movement actually made a difference.
Well, one possibility to use that spell is if there are fights in the open or to attack while fleeing from a horde, and you want to protect the spellcasters or archers, that additional speed will allow them to move constantly, without being hit by physical combatants and without the need to use their action for running to get further away, instead the adversary may have to use running to close the distance, consuming possible actions that they would spend on attacks.
Anyway, it would be something that at the moment would not occur to me and maybe I would never prepare unless I see that it is logical for my character to prepare it (From his experiences, just for role-playing), maybe if he is used to running away, or on the contrary, he is impatient and wants to reach his goal as soon as possible to finish it, or greedy and perhaps to keep the best of the loot before his companions hahahahahaha, or if he sees a clear opportunity so that it seems like a good option to prepare it with anteriority.
Well, one possibility to use that spell is if there are fights in the open or to attack while fleeing from a horde, and you want to protect the spellcasters or archers, that additional speed will allow them to move constantly, without being hit by physical combatants and without the need to use their action for running to get further away, instead the adversary may have to use running to close the distance, consuming possible actions that they would spend on attacks.
My experience is that in fights out in the open, any opponent where an extra 10' of movement would be important is irrelevant to the fight in the first place.
Well, one possibility to use that spell is if there are fights in the open or to attack while fleeing from a horde, and you want to protect the spellcasters or archers, that additional speed will allow them to move constantly, without being hit by physical combatants and without the need to use their action for running to get further away, instead the adversary may have to use running to close the distance, consuming possible actions that they would spend on attacks.
Here's the problem though, you have to have precast Longstrider for it ever to be a good choice, so you need to know that you will enter combat within 1 hours time so your party is not getting ambushed, you are the ones initiating combat. You also need to be out in the open without difficult terrain so you can make use of the extra movement, but at the same time it can't be too out in the open otherwise the casters & archers would simply start the combat 100 ft away from the enemies and be able to keep away from melee enemies who are on foot already simply using their normal movement. The enemies also need to be melee-only or moving away won't protect your archers/casters from anything, and they also have to have a movement speed of 30ft-35ft otherwise they will be able to catch up to your archers/casters even if you cast Longstrider on them or your archers/casters could strafe them just as easily without Longstrider. Add all of that together and practically... it doesn't happen.
Well, one possibility to use that spell is if there are fights in the open or to attack while fleeing from a horde, and you want to protect the spellcasters or archers, that additional speed will allow them to move constantly, without being hit by physical combatants and without the need to use their action for running to get further away, instead the adversary may have to use running to close the distance, consuming possible actions that they would spend on attacks.
Here's the problem though, you have to have precast Longstrider for it ever to be a good choice, so you need to know that you will enter combat within 1 hours time so your party is not getting ambushed, you are the ones initiating combat. You also need to be out in the open without difficult terrain so you can make use of the extra movement, but at the same time it can't be too out in the open otherwise the casters & archers would simply start the combat 100 ft away from the enemies and be able to keep away from melee enemies who are on foot already simply using their normal movement. The enemies also need to be melee-only or moving away won't protect your archers/casters from anything, and they also have to have a movement speed of 30ft-35ft otherwise they will be able to catch up to your archers/casters even if you cast Longstrider on them or your archers/casters could strafe them just as easily without Longstrider. Add all of that together and practically... it doesn't happen.
If you shifted its cast time to a bonus action instead of an action people could still use their cantrips which would probably be enough to make it actually viable.
Making it a bonus action would make it viable as an escape spell since you could action-Disengage, BA longstrider, then move 40ft. It's still not particularly useful for the cost but at least useful in ambush situations.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
Longstrider is one of those spells that it feels like ought to be useful, but I never got around to actually using. I think it's because most combats seem to occur either at ranges short enough that an extra 10' isn't needed, or long enough that an extra 10' isn't good enough. Also, because it's a standard action to take, you have to know ahead of time that you want to use it.
1) I struggle to understand the mentality of "I never got around to using it, so it must be useless/not worth preparing." You can evaluate spells objectively even if your own table(s) can't find a use for them, and this is a good one. 2 extra squares of movement, that stack with every other movement increase/mode and don't take up your concentration, do give you more tactical options.
2) For an hour-long spell, requiring an action isn't much of a hurdle at all; you have very good odds of it already being active when a fight breaks out, or even having it active for multiple combats.
And Longstrider is just one use of those low level slots.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
Longstrider is one of those spells that it feels like ought to be useful, but I never got around to actually using. I think it's because most combats seem to occur either at ranges short enough that an extra 10' isn't needed, or long enough that an extra 10' isn't good enough. Also, because it's a standard action to take, you have to know ahead of time that you want to use it.
1) I struggle to understand the mentality of "I never got around to using it, so it must be useless/not worth preparing." You can evaluate spells objectively even if your own table(s) can't find a use for them, and this is a good one. 2 extra squares of movement, that stack with every other movement increase/mode and don't take up your concentration, do give you more tactical options.
2) For an hour-long spell, requiring an action isn't much of a hurdle at all; you have very good odds of it already being active when a fight breaks out, or even having it active for multiple combats.
And Longstrider is just one use of those low level slots.
It's not that they didn't find a use for it; it's why they didn't find a use for it. As I said earlier, the real issue with Longstrider is it's drain on the action economy. That turn you're spending casting it is a turn you're spending not casting a spell that will actually help you win the encounter. Not even a cantrip. It's hour-long duration doesn't actually matter in a sizable number of situations because you didn't know about the combat beforehand (and likely didn't have it up as a result) but it's also not long enough to just throw it up at the start of the day either. In a 'proper' dungeon maybe you can feel assured that it will be used in multiple combats and throw it up at the start or something but a lot of people don't run those anymore.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
Longstrider is one of those spells that it feels like ought to be useful, but I never got around to actually using. I think it's because most combats seem to occur either at ranges short enough that an extra 10' isn't needed, or long enough that an extra 10' isn't good enough. Also, because it's a standard action to take, you have to know ahead of time that you want to use it.
1) I struggle to understand the mentality of "I never got around to using it, so it must be useless/not worth preparing." You can evaluate spells objectively even if your own table(s) can't find a use for them, and this is a good one. 2 extra squares of movement, that stack with every other movement increase/mode and don't take up your concentration, do give you more tactical options.
2) For an hour-long spell, requiring an action isn't much of a hurdle at all; you have very good odds of it already being active when a fight breaks out, or even having it active for multiple combats.
And Longstrider is just one use of those low level slots.
If 2 extra squares of movement is SO powerful, why don't you share some specific examples / stories of when Longstrider actually made a difference for you or your party.
Could be useful to throw on a Barbarian I"d say. But for the caster themselves seems pretty useless unless you're in difficult terrain and want that extra 5ft.
This whole argument is dumb though. Trying to justify low level spells for this random nerf that cuts creativity and options from a character is silly. It seems the intention is more to make it "easier" than a nerf i'd say, and its really not that complicated to just say you know the number of spells equal to spell slots overall.
If you have to go to this much trouble justifying low level spells as sometimes useful at higher levels, i'd say its not a rule that should go forward.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
Longstrider is one of those spells that it feels like ought to be useful, but I never got around to actually using. I think it's because most combats seem to occur either at ranges short enough that an extra 10' isn't needed, or long enough that an extra 10' isn't good enough. Also, because it's a standard action to take, you have to know ahead of time that you want to use it.
1) I struggle to understand the mentality of "I never got around to using it, so it must be useless/not worth preparing." You can evaluate spells objectively even if your own table(s) can't find a use for them, and this is a good one. 2 extra squares of movement, that stack with every other movement increase/mode and don't take up your concentration, do give you more tactical options.
2) For an hour-long spell, requiring an action isn't much of a hurdle at all; you have very good odds of it already being active when a fight breaks out, or even having it active for multiple combats.
And Longstrider is just one use of those low level slots.
If 2 extra squares of movement is SO powerful, why don't you share some specific examples / stories of when Longstrider actually made a difference for you or your party.
I played a super fun melee ranger once who used Longstrider in tandem with Ashardalon's Stride. Combined, they gave him 65ft of movement and dealt a little damage by just running up on fools. In pretty much every single published WotC 5e adventure, your biggest and most exciting fights are telegraphed, or you purposefully walk into them or whatever. It's super easy to cast Longstrider beforehand.
Ok combined with Ashardalon's Stride, assuming you can make full use of your movement every turn that's 20% additional damage from AS, which I suppose is something. If you up cast AS that might make a significant difference in combat.
Not to mention that there are races/classes that get bonus movement innately that we can also look at. That's part of why I say the problem with Longstrider isn't it's effect or it's cost on spell slots, but that it costs an action to cast. Especially when campaigns are shying away from dungeon crawls and the like and more towards singular encounters. If we're heading into a dungeon I can reasonably cast longstrider beforehand and be okay-ish. But if we're not doing that, the cost is losing a turn to cast a spell that probably won't directly contribute to actually winning the fight; especially at higher levels where I can be lobbing about some very potent spells with my action but, instead, chose to cast a lower-level utility spell instead.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
Longstrider is one of those spells that it feels like ought to be useful, but I never got around to actually using. I think it's because most combats seem to occur either at ranges short enough that an extra 10' isn't needed, or long enough that an extra 10' isn't good enough. Also, because it's a standard action to take, you have to know ahead of time that you want to use it.
1) I struggle to understand the mentality of "I never got around to using it, so it must be useless/not worth preparing." You can evaluate spells objectively even if your own table(s) can't find a use for them, and this is a good one. 2 extra squares of movement, that stack with every other movement increase/mode and don't take up your concentration, do give you more tactical options.
2) For an hour-long spell, requiring an action isn't much of a hurdle at all; you have very good odds of it already being active when a fight breaks out, or even having it active for multiple combats.
And Longstrider is just one use of those low level slots.
If 2 extra squares of movement is SO powerful, why don't you share some specific examples / stories of when Longstrider actually made a difference for you or your party.
1) It's powerful enough to be worth a 1st-level slot and no concentration.
2) Has the situation really never come up in your games where a melee character is a mere square or two short of being able to reach the next enemy, including with difficult terrain? If not, fine, prep one of the other dozen spells I listed instead, but that's definitely come up at mine.
Not to mention that there are races/classes that get bonus movement innately that we can also look at. That's part of why I say the problem with Longstrider isn't it's effect or it's cost on spell slots, but that it costs an action to cast. Especially when campaigns are shying away from dungeon crawls and the like and more towards singular encounters. If we're heading into a dungeon I can reasonably cast longstrider beforehand and be okay-ish. But if we're not doing that, the cost is losing a turn to cast a spell that probably won't directly contribute to actually winning the fight; especially at higher levels where I can be lobbing about some very potent spells with my action but, instead, chose to cast a lower-level utility spell instead.
I agree that it's not a great use of an action during combat, but again, it lasts an hour with no concentration. Your odds of being able to have it running prior to combat starting are pretty good, and if that's not the case at your tables, then every 1-hour spell is getting similarly hosed.
Radical idea but I think if they're going to rethink it, why not go all the way and do away with slots. Go with a point system and assign spells of each level a point total. Let the caster worry about how they want to spend their points.
Radical idea but I think if they're going to rethink it, why not go all the way and do away with slots. Go with a point system and assign spells of each level a point total. Let the caster worry about how they want to spend their points.
I can actually see something like this working; but doing so would need a major overhaul and reconstruction of how spells function; so it wouldn't be done till 6e.
That’s already an optional rule in the 2014 DMG. Spell Slots are easier to manage.
1st level 2 points
2nd level 3 points
3rd level 5 points
4th level 6 points
5th level 7 points
They continue with points above 5th level you can find all this in the DMG under variant spell points in the Dungeon Masters Workshop chapter. You can only cast a spell of 6th level and above once per spell level per long rest. But you could use those points for lower level spells and never cast a spell above 5th level. They also have a table that explains how many points a character has per level but it’s only for full casters.
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I agree it is ALWAYS a precast not a during cast. But its one hour duration makes precasting it much more viable. It is one of the few buff spells in the game that still exist that can be precast. Hell, it is a first level spell so you can always just buy a scroll of longstrider as well, that should be fairly cheap.
Clearly, we must be. What game are you playing where most enemies have only 30ft of movement and only make melee attacks and every combat starts with the party 40ft away from the enemies? Sound boring TBH. Why don't you give examples from your game where 10ft of movement actually made a difference.
Well, one possibility to use that spell is if there are fights in the open or to attack while fleeing from a horde, and you want to protect the spellcasters or archers, that additional speed will allow them to move constantly, without being hit by physical combatants and without the need to use their action for running to get further away, instead the adversary may have to use running to close the distance, consuming possible actions that they would spend on attacks.
Anyway, it would be something that at the moment would not occur to me and maybe I would never prepare unless I see that it is logical for my character to prepare it (From his experiences, just for role-playing), maybe if he is used to running away, or on the contrary, he is impatient and wants to reach his goal as soon as possible to finish it, or greedy and perhaps to keep the best of the loot before his companions hahahahahaha, or if he sees a clear opportunity so that it seems like a good option to prepare it with anteriority.
My experience is that in fights out in the open, any opponent where an extra 10' of movement would be important is irrelevant to the fight in the first place.
Here's the problem though, you have to have precast Longstrider for it ever to be a good choice, so you need to know that you will enter combat within 1 hours time so your party is not getting ambushed, you are the ones initiating combat. You also need to be out in the open without difficult terrain so you can make use of the extra movement, but at the same time it can't be too out in the open otherwise the casters & archers would simply start the combat 100 ft away from the enemies and be able to keep away from melee enemies who are on foot already simply using their normal movement. The enemies also need to be melee-only or moving away won't protect your archers/casters from anything, and they also have to have a movement speed of 30ft-35ft otherwise they will be able to catch up to your archers/casters even if you cast Longstrider on them or your archers/casters could strafe them just as easily without Longstrider. Add all of that together and practically... it doesn't happen.
If you shifted its cast time to a bonus action instead of an action people could still use their cantrips which would probably be enough to make it actually viable.
Making it a bonus action would make it viable as an escape spell since you could action-Disengage, BA longstrider, then move 40ft. It's still not particularly useful for the cost but at least useful in ambush situations.
1) I struggle to understand the mentality of "I never got around to using it, so it must be useless/not worth preparing." You can evaluate spells objectively even if your own table(s) can't find a use for them, and this is a good one. 2 extra squares of movement, that stack with every other movement increase/mode and don't take up your concentration, do give you more tactical options.
2) For an hour-long spell, requiring an action isn't much of a hurdle at all; you have very good odds of it already being active when a fight breaks out, or even having it active for multiple combats.
And Longstrider is just one use of those low level slots.
It's not that they didn't find a use for it; it's why they didn't find a use for it. As I said earlier, the real issue with Longstrider is it's drain on the action economy. That turn you're spending casting it is a turn you're spending not casting a spell that will actually help you win the encounter. Not even a cantrip. It's hour-long duration doesn't actually matter in a sizable number of situations because you didn't know about the combat beforehand (and likely didn't have it up as a result) but it's also not long enough to just throw it up at the start of the day either. In a 'proper' dungeon maybe you can feel assured that it will be used in multiple combats and throw it up at the start or something but a lot of people don't run those anymore.
If 2 extra squares of movement is SO powerful, why don't you share some specific examples / stories of when Longstrider actually made a difference for you or your party.
Could be useful to throw on a Barbarian I"d say. But for the caster themselves seems pretty useless unless you're in difficult terrain and want that extra 5ft.
This whole argument is dumb though. Trying to justify low level spells for this random nerf that cuts creativity and options from a character is silly. It seems the intention is more to make it "easier" than a nerf i'd say, and its really not that complicated to just say you know the number of spells equal to spell slots overall.
If you have to go to this much trouble justifying low level spells as sometimes useful at higher levels, i'd say its not a rule that should go forward.
I played a super fun melee ranger once who used Longstrider in tandem with Ashardalon's Stride. Combined, they gave him 65ft of movement and dealt a little damage by just running up on fools. In pretty much every single published WotC 5e adventure, your biggest and most exciting fights are telegraphed, or you purposefully walk into them or whatever. It's super easy to cast Longstrider beforehand.
Ok combined with Ashardalon's Stride, assuming you can make full use of your movement every turn that's 20% additional damage from AS, which I suppose is something. If you up cast AS that might make a significant difference in combat.
Not to mention that there are races/classes that get bonus movement innately that we can also look at. That's part of why I say the problem with Longstrider isn't it's effect or it's cost on spell slots, but that it costs an action to cast. Especially when campaigns are shying away from dungeon crawls and the like and more towards singular encounters. If we're heading into a dungeon I can reasonably cast longstrider beforehand and be okay-ish. But if we're not doing that, the cost is losing a turn to cast a spell that probably won't directly contribute to actually winning the fight; especially at higher levels where I can be lobbing about some very potent spells with my action but, instead, chose to cast a lower-level utility spell instead.
1) It's powerful enough to be worth a 1st-level slot and no concentration.
2) Has the situation really never come up in your games where a melee character is a mere square or two short of being able to reach the next enemy, including with difficult terrain? If not, fine, prep one of the other dozen spells I listed instead, but that's definitely come up at mine.
I agree that it's not a great use of an action during combat, but again, it lasts an hour with no concentration. Your odds of being able to have it running prior to combat starting are pretty good, and if that's not the case at your tables, then every 1-hour spell is getting similarly hosed.
Radical idea but I think if they're going to rethink it, why not go all the way and do away with slots. Go with a point system and assign spells of each level a point total. Let the caster worry about how they want to spend their points.
I can actually see something like this working; but doing so would need a major overhaul and reconstruction of how spells function; so it wouldn't be done till 6e.
That’s already an optional rule in the 2014 DMG. Spell Slots are easier to manage.
1st level 2 points
2nd level 3 points
3rd level 5 points
4th level 6 points
5th level 7 points
They continue with points above 5th level you can find all this in the DMG under variant spell points in the Dungeon Masters Workshop chapter. You can only cast a spell of 6th level and above once per spell level per long rest. But you could use those points for lower level spells and never cast a spell above 5th level. They also have a table that explains how many points a character has per level but it’s only for full casters.