Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage.
That's not what the charmed condition does. It doesn't let you make any persuasion roll you wouldn't be able to attempt anyway. The value of charm person, if anything, lies in the "friendly acquaintance" verbiage.
If you are trying to get passed a guard and cast charm person on them I’m assuming you are going to ask them to let you passed them.
And the guard says no, the same as they would if not charmed. There are plenty of times when persuasion either can't be attempted, or has a ridiculous DC, and getting advantage on your roll won't make any difference. You need something to turn the normally impossible rolls possible.
Not as a 1st level spell you don't. A level 1 adventurer should be able to be told no by a guard without any way to turn it into a yes. But that's also why low level spells don't remain useful a higher levels, a 17th level wizard who can take on the avatar of a god and win, should not have to deal with a guard telling them 'no' where as a level 1 wizard who can get killed by a feral dog or a swarm of rats should definitely be able to be told 'no' by a guard.
Not as a 1st level spell you don't. A level 1 adventurer should be able to be told no by a guard without any way to turn it into a yes. But that's also why low level spells don't remain useful a higher levels, a 17th level wizard who can take on the avatar of a god and win, should not have to deal with a guard telling them 'no' where as a level 1 wizard who can get killed by a feral dog or a swarm of rats should definitely be able to be told 'no' by a guard.
So you want charm person to be completely obsolete at 3rd level? Because Enhance Ability (Eagle's Splendor) gives you advantage on all your persuasion checks for the next hour, against any number of targets, can be cast while out of sight of observers, and doesn't have a save.
Im interested on what they will do with Wizards since they got the flexibility of having the spells in the magic book. Would they be able to cast any spell in their book to make them more special and diferent than the rest?
Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage.
That's not what the charmed condition does. It doesn't let you make any persuasion roll you wouldn't be able to attempt anyway. The value of charm person, if anything, lies in the "friendly acquaintance" verbiage.
If you are trying to get passed a guard and cast charm person on them I’m assuming you are going to ask them to let you passed them.
Well, with some imagination, luck and a lot of teamwork, good results could be achieved in that particular situation, for example:
If the guard will NOT normally let you pass, it is very difficult for him to do so if he considers you friendly, but it will slightly tilt his bias towards you, in order to take advantage of this you will have to do more than just charm him, if there is another magic user who has any illusion spell in the group or someone with disguise skills, you could, I don't know, pass yourself off as another guard, and together with that spell, considering you friendly, have less predisposition to doubt the disguise and pass you off (And an ally if you escort a "Prisoner") automatically or with a reduced difficulty. Later, when the effect wears off, he will get angry, worse thanks to the illusion or disguise, the first thing to look for is a guard, not a magician, which perhaps will earn you a few seconds to do what you had to do and leave or take him by surprise when you have to face him because he did not expect to face a magician.
Another alternative following the same thread is that you do not enter, be it with a disguise/illusion of support or not, with that good predisposition you distract the guards, such as by provoking them to stop by the tavern to celebrate that you invite the drinks or give them conversation... while some of your peers take the opportunity to slip away.
And if you can't, you can't... at least for the moment, try it with several more levels, maybe what happens there is something that the master thought for characters with more levels, more objects, etc.
In any case, yes, that side effect at the end of the spell is kind of very disincentive, well, also depending on what happens and how the NPC is, it's how he will react to it, but even so I wouldn't usually put it in my repertoire of spells.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
I still don't know what to say to this other than your DM appears to take more joy in stonewalling you than validating your creativity. In which case, yeah you're probably right that low level spells aren't useful for you, but that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Like if I was friends with a guard, yeah he probably wouldn't risk getting fired or jailed to let me inside - but he might tell me where I can go to get permission, or what proof he'd accept to allow passage, or which neighboring window has a good vantage point to see inside, or maybe even what time the changing of the guard is so that he personally wouldn't get in trouble. You know, something that keeps the plot moving. That's like, the goal, right?
And I want to add in to this that it doesn't say that the person becomes hostile to you. Just that they know they were charmed by you. Might piss them off a bit, but usually the person you are charming wasn't someone that was friendly to you to begin with. You might meet them one or two times and that is it and an hour of their friendship is all you really need. Some NPC's will find your ruse clever and be amused that you charmed them, others will be mad and be hostile the next time you see them... if you see them. It says they know they were charmed, it does not say what they do with that knowledge. It isn't a ruse you can keep up forever, but it is still a perfectly fine and serviceable spell. One of many lower level spells that people rarely use that are perfectly fine and even upcast decently. Charm person with a 4th or 5th level spell can get a whole 4 or 5 people. Suggestion doesn't upcast.
They will be hostile to you because you just mind controlled them. That isn't a put your hands on your hips and exclaim well boys will be boys moment, that is a I'm going to find and kill that dude moment.
While I don't think this is a particularly strong nerf in the power sense its a massive nerf in the entertainment sense. It is a hey lets make this class far less enjoyable to play for a tiny at best benefit style change.
While I don't think this is a particularly strong nerf in the power sense its a massive nerf in the entertainment sense. It is a hey lets make this class far less enjoyable to play for a tiny at best benefit style change.
And this is why casters can't have even the most minor of nerfs, because anytime they try anything vaguely in that direction someone yells "unfun!" and they just stick with the status quo.
While I don't think this is a particularly strong nerf in the power sense its a massive nerf in the entertainment sense. It is a hey lets make this class far less enjoyable to play for a tiny at best benefit style change.
And this is why casters can't have even the most minor of nerfs, because anytime they try anything vaguely in that direction someone yells "unfun!" and they just stick with the status quo.
No, people have suggested repeatedly nerfing the actual spells in this thread, you know an actual nerf to their power. And I do not appreciate the insinuation.
While I don't think this is a particularly strong nerf in the power sense its a massive nerf in the entertainment sense. It is a hey lets make this class far less enjoyable to play for a tiny at best benefit style change.
And this is why casters can't have even the most minor of nerfs, because anytime they try anything vaguely in that direction someone yells "unfun!" and they just stick with the status quo.
No, people have suggested repeatedly nerfing the actual spells in this thread, you know an actual nerf to their power. And I do not appreciate the insinuation.
As did I. But just nerfing the spells themselves won't be enough. Like there's only so far you can nerf something like Suggestion or Sleep before it just stops feeling good entirely. So some small tweak to the chassis is good too.
I am not sure I said this before, but I think that while this may be less fun for the individual caster, I believe it will be MORE fun for the group. They won't just see the BEST spells all the time. I have seen 2 spells at every level that are definitely in, but having that one flex spot for your spells makes it more likely to have utility stuff ready. It also is a lot easier for newer players who don't know how much to prepare at each level. Another big factor is, in the past, arcane casters and spontaneous casters could only KNOW 2 second level spells when they first access them, and the same with third level spells. By restricting these preparations to the slots this preserves that even as these casters get to know more of these spells.
Ultimately, this method is going to be easier for new players making the difference between veteran and newbie smaller. This can increase the enjoyment for newer players. In addition, I think the reduced joy to the individual player is replaced by increased joy of the table from a greater variety of spells being seen regularly.
No, people have suggested repeatedly nerfing the actual spells in this thread, you know an actual nerf to their power. And I do not appreciate the insinuation.
No matter what change is made, someone will come out against it.
My personal preference is for casters to have more spell slots at low level, fewer at high, with about the same at something like level 6.
I am not sure I said this before, but I think that while this may be less fun for the individual caster, I believe it will be MORE fun for the group. They won't just see the BEST spells all the time. I have seen 2 spells at every level that are definitely in, but having that one flex spot for your spells makes it more likely to have utility stuff ready. It also is a lot easier for newer players who don't know how much to prepare at each level. Another big factor is, in the past, arcane casters and spontaneous casters could only KNOW 2 second level spells when they first access them, and the same with third level spells. By restricting these preparations to the slots this preserves that even as these casters get to know more of these spells.
Ultimately, this method is going to be easier for new players making the difference between veteran and newbie smaller. This can increase the enjoyment for newer players. In addition, I think the reduced joy to the individual player is replaced by increased joy of the table from a greater variety of spells being seen regularly.
I am not sure I said this before, but I think that while this may be less fun for the individual caster, I believe it will be MORE fun for the group. They won't just see the BEST spells all the time. I have seen 2 spells at every level that are definitely in, but having that one flex spot for your spells makes it more likely to have utility stuff ready. It also is a lot easier for newer players who don't know how much to prepare at each level. Another big factor is, in the past, arcane casters and spontaneous casters could only KNOW 2 second level spells when they first access them, and the same with third level spells. By restricting these preparations to the slots this preserves that even as these casters get to know more of these spells.
Ultimately, this method is going to be easier for new players making the difference between veteran and newbie smaller. This can increase the enjoyment for newer players. In addition, I think the reduced joy to the individual player is replaced by increased joy of the table from a greater variety of spells being seen regularly.
Less variety of spells will be seen, not more.
Not in my experience of the play test, but each table is different.
I am not sure I said this before, but I think that while this may be less fun for the individual caster, I believe it will be MORE fun for the group. They won't just see the BEST spells all the time. I have seen 2 spells at every level that are definitely in, but having that one flex spot for your spells makes it more likely to have utility stuff ready. It also is a lot easier for newer players who don't know how much to prepare at each level. Another big factor is, in the past, arcane casters and spontaneous casters could only KNOW 2 second level spells when they first access them, and the same with third level spells. By restricting these preparations to the slots this preserves that even as these casters get to know more of these spells.
Ultimately, this method is going to be easier for new players making the difference between veteran and newbie smaller. This can increase the enjoyment for newer players. In addition, I think the reduced joy to the individual player is replaced by increased joy of the table from a greater variety of spells being seen regularly.
But there's nothing stopping a new player from doing this even if its not a direct rule. It could be a suggestion in the PHB saying "If you're a new player, you may just want to have spells prepared equal to the number determined on the spell table for each level" and then allow all experienced players to choose spells known equal to overall spell slot number. There's no reason we can't do both, you don't have to make it worse for experienced players to allow potential new players to the game. And strength wise casters will likely lean to the most powerful combat spells as their defaults for higher level spells so it just hurts creative use spells and utility spells for the most part, something this game needs more of not less of. my thoughts at least.
I am not sure I said this before, but I think that while this may be less fun for the individual caster, I believe it will be MORE fun for the group. They won't just see the BEST spells all the time. I have seen 2 spells at every level that are definitely in, but having that one flex spot for your spells makes it more likely to have utility stuff ready. It also is a lot easier for newer players who don't know how much to prepare at each level. Another big factor is, in the past, arcane casters and spontaneous casters could only KNOW 2 second level spells when they first access them, and the same with third level spells. By restricting these preparations to the slots this preserves that even as these casters get to know more of these spells.
Ultimately, this method is going to be easier for new players making the difference between veteran and newbie smaller. This can increase the enjoyment for newer players. In addition, I think the reduced joy to the individual player is replaced by increased joy of the table from a greater variety of spells being seen regularly.
But there's nothing stopping a new player from doing this even if its not a direct rule. It could be a suggestion in the PHB saying "If you're a new player, you may just want to have spells prepared equal to the number determined on the spell table for each level" and then allow all experienced players to choose spells known equal to overall spell slot number. There's no reason we can't do both, you don't have to make it worse for experienced players to allow potential new players to the game. And strength wise casters will likely lean to the most powerful combat spells as their defaults for higher level spells so it just hurts creative use spells and utility spells for the most part, something this game needs more of not less of. my thoughts at least.
I would argue that "creative use spells and utility spells" are more often found in the spell levels below a caster's maximum, because the top spell levels they have access to are predominantly going to be reserved for their nukes each day. Again, it's a small nerf, and one that doesn't actually reduce the casters' overall power, it just forces them to be more creative with those lower spells.
I am not sure I said this before, but I think that while this may be less fun for the individual caster, I believe it will be MORE fun for the group. They won't just see the BEST spells all the time. I have seen 2 spells at every level that are definitely in, but having that one flex spot for your spells makes it more likely to have utility stuff ready. It also is a lot easier for newer players who don't know how much to prepare at each level. Another big factor is, in the past, arcane casters and spontaneous casters could only KNOW 2 second level spells when they first access them, and the same with third level spells. By restricting these preparations to the slots this preserves that even as these casters get to know more of these spells.
Ultimately, this method is going to be easier for new players making the difference between veteran and newbie smaller. This can increase the enjoyment for newer players. In addition, I think the reduced joy to the individual player is replaced by increased joy of the table from a greater variety of spells being seen regularly.
But there's nothing stopping a new player from doing this even if its not a direct rule. It could be a suggestion in the PHB saying "If you're a new player, you may just want to have spells prepared equal to the number determined on the spell table for each level" and then allow all experienced players to choose spells known equal to overall spell slot number. There's no reason we can't do both, you don't have to make it worse for experienced players to allow potential new players to the game. And strength wise casters will likely lean to the most powerful combat spells as their defaults for higher level spells so it just hurts creative use spells and utility spells for the most part, something this game needs more of not less of. my thoughts at least.
I would argue that "creative use spells and utility spells" are more often found in the spell levels below a caster's maximum, because the top spell levels they have access to are predominantly going to be reserved for their nukes each day. Again, it's a small nerf, and one that doesn't actually reduce the casters' overall power, it just forces them to be more creative with those lower spells.
Ya i'm referring to more spells like Teleport, Word of Recall, Heroes Feast, Transport via Plants, Wind Walk, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, etc to name a few that may not be taken anymore because there are other spells you may use more often but these could all be very clutch to have in certain situations. Especially for the nicer base options like Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, you'll never see casters taking these anymore compared to other spells at that level which sucks because they're fun.
Yeah as you level up what utility is still needed or useful changes. The challenges that a level 1 or 2 spell is meant for just are not challenges anymore. You wont see more spells you just wont see spells from those levels outside the level independent spells like shield/misty step, which you already saw in the old system.
Yeah as you level up what utility is still needed or useful changes. The challenges that a level 1 or 2 spell is meant for just are not challenges anymore. You wont see more spells you just wont see spells from those levels outside the level independent spells like shield/misty step, which you already saw in the old system.
This was not my experience from playtesting. The types of lower level spells you pick change. Because before, no one looked at what upcasting a utility spell did. After the players truly considered it. As noted Charm person, it isnt a single target charm anymore. Major image becomes a permanent illusion when cast at 6. 100% the types of spells you want change and the types of problems change. There are a lot of level 1 and 2 utility spells that are NEVER taken when all you have is 1st and 2nd level spells, because you need those slots for combat. When you get to 3rd levels you might see them for maybe 2 or 3 levels, and then never again, not because those problems no longer exist, but because there is probably a 3rd or 4th level spell that does the same thing, but better.
Like comprehend languages vs Tongues or silent image vs Major image. Later tiny hut vs magnificent mansion.
Imagine if silent image was just called create image and just scaled to be silent when cast at first, have sound and senses at 3rd and permanent at 6th.
No one is arguing 3rd level spell utility vanishes at 18th level. Because it doesn't. That is 13 levels. You aren't using those slots for combat anymore.
I really encourage everyone to look at the list of 1st and 2nd level spells. You already know you are going to prep the staples, shield, misty step, invisibility. Look at the others, you need 3 more first and 1 more second. I promise you, if you take the time, you can find spells that you never cast that will have utility use that you still face into the highest levels.
Yeah as you level up what utility is still needed or useful changes. The challenges that a level 1 or 2 spell is meant for just are not challenges anymore. You wont see more spells you just wont see spells from those levels outside the level independent spells like shield/misty step, which you already saw in the old system.
This was not my experience from playtesting. The types of lower level spells you pick change. Because before, no one looked at what upcasting a utility spell did. After the players truly considered it. As noted Charm person, it isnt a single target charm anymore. Major image becomes a permanent illusion when cast at 6. 100% the types of spells you want change and the types of problems change. There are a lot of level 1 and 2 utility spells that are NEVER taken when all you have is 1st and 2nd level spells, because you need those slots for combat. When you get to 3rd levels you might see them for maybe 2 or 3 levels, and then never again, not because those problems no longer exist, but because there is probably a 3rd or 4th level spell that does the same thing, but better.
Like comprehend languages vs Tongues or silent image vs Major image. Later tiny hut vs magnificent mansion.
Imagine if silent image was just called create image and just scaled to be silent when cast at first, have sound and senses at 3rd and permanent at 6th.
No one is arguing 3rd level spell utility vanishes at 18th level. Because it doesn't. That is 13 levels. You aren't using those slots for combat anymore.
I really encourage everyone to look at the list of 1st and 2nd level spells. You already know you are going to prep the staples, shield, misty step, invisibility. Look at the others, you need 3 more first and 1 more second. I promise you, if you take the time, you can find spells that you never cast that will have utility use that you still face into the highest levels.
I have, the players have and their options sucked and they didn't use them.
Ya i'm referring to more spells like Teleport, Word of Recall, Heroes Feast, Transport via Plants, Wind Walk, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, etc to name a few that may not be taken anymore because there are other spells you may use more often but these could all be very clutch to have in certain situations. Especially for the nicer base options like Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, you'll never see casters taking these anymore compared to other spells at that level which sucks because they're fun.
Really? I totally disagree, Teleport, Word of Recall, and Transport via Plants are crucial spells for the party to have access to at those levels, unless the DM gives them an NPC to supply them for them, because threats are now global in nature and require a global search for a solution. You're not just going to bump into a CR 20 monster walking down a road through a forest. Magnificent Mansion and Temple of the Gods likewise can be crucial when dealing with NPC allies or avoiding being ambushed by enemies with access to Scrying and Teleport. What I hardly see in my games is high level combat spells, only if the party knows in advance when and where they will be fighting the next day do my casters 'waste' their high level spells on damage dealing spells, the rest of time they are saving them so the party can sleep safely or teleport away in case of emergency.
Heroe's Feast is at risk b/c you'd now need 2 days forewarning of a major battle to be able to prepare it and cast it the night before, then prep a combat spell the day of.
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Not as a 1st level spell you don't. A level 1 adventurer should be able to be told no by a guard without any way to turn it into a yes. But that's also why low level spells don't remain useful a higher levels, a 17th level wizard who can take on the avatar of a god and win, should not have to deal with a guard telling them 'no' where as a level 1 wizard who can get killed by a feral dog or a swarm of rats should definitely be able to be told 'no' by a guard.
So you want charm person to be completely obsolete at 3rd level? Because Enhance Ability (Eagle's Splendor) gives you advantage on all your persuasion checks for the next hour, against any number of targets, can be cast while out of sight of observers, and doesn't have a save.
Im interested on what they will do with Wizards since they got the flexibility of having the spells in the magic book. Would they be able to cast any spell in their book to make them more special and diferent than the rest?
Well, with some imagination, luck and a lot of teamwork, good results could be achieved in that particular situation, for example:
If the guard will NOT normally let you pass, it is very difficult for him to do so if he considers you friendly, but it will slightly tilt his bias towards you, in order to take advantage of this you will have to do more than just charm him, if there is another magic user who has any illusion spell in the group or someone with disguise skills, you could, I don't know, pass yourself off as another guard, and together with that spell, considering you friendly, have less predisposition to doubt the disguise and pass you off (And an ally if you escort a "Prisoner") automatically or with a reduced difficulty. Later, when the effect wears off, he will get angry, worse thanks to the illusion or disguise, the first thing to look for is a guard, not a magician, which perhaps will earn you a few seconds to do what you had to do and leave or take him by surprise when you have to face him because he did not expect to face a magician.
Another alternative following the same thread is that you do not enter, be it with a disguise/illusion of support or not, with that good predisposition you distract the guards, such as by provoking them to stop by the tavern to celebrate that you invite the drinks or give them conversation... while some of your peers take the opportunity to slip away.
And if you can't, you can't... at least for the moment, try it with several more levels, maybe what happens there is something that the master thought for characters with more levels, more objects, etc.
In any case, yes, that side effect at the end of the spell is kind of very disincentive, well, also depending on what happens and how the NPC is, it's how he will react to it, but even so I wouldn't usually put it in my repertoire of spells.
They will be hostile to you because you just mind controlled them. That isn't a put your hands on your hips and exclaim well boys will be boys moment, that is a I'm going to find and kill that dude moment.
While I don't think this is a particularly strong nerf in the power sense its a massive nerf in the entertainment sense. It is a hey lets make this class far less enjoyable to play for a tiny at best benefit style change.
And this is why casters can't have even the most minor of nerfs, because anytime they try anything vaguely in that direction someone yells "unfun!" and they just stick with the status quo.
No, people have suggested repeatedly nerfing the actual spells in this thread, you know an actual nerf to their power. And I do not appreciate the insinuation.
As did I. But just nerfing the spells themselves won't be enough. Like there's only so far you can nerf something like Suggestion or Sleep before it just stops feeling good entirely. So some small tweak to the chassis is good too.
I am not sure I said this before, but I think that while this may be less fun for the individual caster, I believe it will be MORE fun for the group. They won't just see the BEST spells all the time. I have seen 2 spells at every level that are definitely in, but having that one flex spot for your spells makes it more likely to have utility stuff ready. It also is a lot easier for newer players who don't know how much to prepare at each level. Another big factor is, in the past, arcane casters and spontaneous casters could only KNOW 2 second level spells when they first access them, and the same with third level spells. By restricting these preparations to the slots this preserves that even as these casters get to know more of these spells.
Ultimately, this method is going to be easier for new players making the difference between veteran and newbie smaller. This can increase the enjoyment for newer players. In addition, I think the reduced joy to the individual player is replaced by increased joy of the table from a greater variety of spells being seen regularly.
No matter what change is made, someone will come out against it.
My personal preference is for casters to have more spell slots at low level, fewer at high, with about the same at something like level 6.
Less variety of spells will be seen, not more.
Not in my experience of the play test, but each table is different.
But there's nothing stopping a new player from doing this even if its not a direct rule. It could be a suggestion in the PHB saying "If you're a new player, you may just want to have spells prepared equal to the number determined on the spell table for each level" and then allow all experienced players to choose spells known equal to overall spell slot number. There's no reason we can't do both, you don't have to make it worse for experienced players to allow potential new players to the game. And strength wise casters will likely lean to the most powerful combat spells as their defaults for higher level spells so it just hurts creative use spells and utility spells for the most part, something this game needs more of not less of. my thoughts at least.
I would argue that "creative use spells and utility spells" are more often found in the spell levels below a caster's maximum, because the top spell levels they have access to are predominantly going to be reserved for their nukes each day. Again, it's a small nerf, and one that doesn't actually reduce the casters' overall power, it just forces them to be more creative with those lower spells.
Ya i'm referring to more spells like Teleport, Word of Recall, Heroes Feast, Transport via Plants, Wind Walk, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, etc to name a few that may not be taken anymore because there are other spells you may use more often but these could all be very clutch to have in certain situations. Especially for the nicer base options like Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, you'll never see casters taking these anymore compared to other spells at that level which sucks because they're fun.
Yeah as you level up what utility is still needed or useful changes. The challenges that a level 1 or 2 spell is meant for just are not challenges anymore. You wont see more spells you just wont see spells from those levels outside the level independent spells like shield/misty step, which you already saw in the old system.
This was not my experience from playtesting. The types of lower level spells you pick change. Because before, no one looked at what upcasting a utility spell did. After the players truly considered it. As noted Charm person, it isnt a single target charm anymore. Major image becomes a permanent illusion when cast at 6. 100% the types of spells you want change and the types of problems change. There are a lot of level 1 and 2 utility spells that are NEVER taken when all you have is 1st and 2nd level spells, because you need those slots for combat. When you get to 3rd levels you might see them for maybe 2 or 3 levels, and then never again, not because those problems no longer exist, but because there is probably a 3rd or 4th level spell that does the same thing, but better.
Like comprehend languages vs Tongues or silent image vs Major image. Later tiny hut vs magnificent mansion.
Imagine if silent image was just called create image and just scaled to be silent when cast at first, have sound and senses at 3rd and permanent at 6th.
No one is arguing 3rd level spell utility vanishes at 18th level. Because it doesn't. That is 13 levels. You aren't using those slots for combat anymore.
I really encourage everyone to look at the list of 1st and 2nd level spells. You already know you are going to prep the staples, shield, misty step, invisibility. Look at the others, you need 3 more first and 1 more second. I promise you, if you take the time, you can find spells that you never cast that will have utility use that you still face into the highest levels.
I have, the players have and their options sucked and they didn't use them.
Really? I totally disagree, Teleport, Word of Recall, and Transport via Plants are crucial spells for the party to have access to at those levels, unless the DM gives them an NPC to supply them for them, because threats are now global in nature and require a global search for a solution. You're not just going to bump into a CR 20 monster walking down a road through a forest. Magnificent Mansion and Temple of the Gods likewise can be crucial when dealing with NPC allies or avoiding being ambushed by enemies with access to Scrying and Teleport. What I hardly see in my games is high level combat spells, only if the party knows in advance when and where they will be fighting the next day do my casters 'waste' their high level spells on damage dealing spells, the rest of time they are saving them so the party can sleep safely or teleport away in case of emergency.
Heroe's Feast is at risk b/c you'd now need 2 days forewarning of a major battle to be able to prepare it and cast it the night before, then prep a combat spell the day of.